Revision as of 13:09, 10 May 2015 editKautilya3 (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers86,369 edits →Removal of the word "alleged": Reply← Previous edit | Revision as of 13:14, 10 May 2015 edit undoMoonriddengirl (talk | contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators135,072 edits →Removal of the word "alleged": replyNext edit → | ||
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::: That question doesn't merit an answer. A charge is an allegation until it is proved in a court. It can't be reported as a fact until scholarly sources acknowledge it so. Misplaced Pages reports scholarly consensus. - ] (]) 13:09, 10 May 2015 (UTC) | ::: That question doesn't merit an answer. A charge is an allegation until it is proved in a court. It can't be reported as a fact until scholarly sources acknowledge it so. Misplaced Pages reports scholarly consensus. - ] (]) 13:09, 10 May 2015 (UTC) | ||
::::I agree with ]. "appeared to be" is by no means proof of activity, and the rest of that section makes quite clear that official investigations - including the probe that was ordered - have found no substantiation. Until there is such proof, this remains an allegation. --] <sup>]</sup> 13:13, 10 May 2015 (UTC) |
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Following a copyright investigation that confirmed there have been no versions of this article that did not contain improperly used non-free content, it has been replaced. Some of the content and structure of the original have been retained, although passages have been rewritten to confirm to copyright policy and non-free content practices. Since the structure and some of the language is retained, attribution is required under both CC-By-SA and GFDL for previous contributors. Since the copyrighted contents were twice restored out of process (once accidentally), continued publication of earlier versions of this article seems likely to result in a return of copyrighted contents. Accordingly, the history has been deleted. For attribution, the list of previous contributors is provided here:
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Lot of new analysis and reports on Love Jihad in main news sources. Will add them after due consideration.
Only collapsing to help keep clear what hasn't been used yet - see below | |||
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Three sample new and unique analysis/cases:
--AmritasyaPutra✍ 08:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
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Few more links,
- 'Love Jihad', students and teachers,
- Love Jihad campaign treats women as if they are foolish: Charu Gupta, Interview with Associate professor of history at Delhi University,
- Who loves Love Jihad
--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidercs 19:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think I got the interview. :) There are tons of news stories just from the last day! --Moonriddengirl 20:03, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- Here is a very touching (and alarming) story. Kautilya3 (talk) 15:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Few more links (recent statement of UP Govt. in court),
- UP govt. denies existence of 'love jihad'
- No 'Love Jihad' in Uttar Pradesh, state government tells HC
- http://zeenews.india.com/news/uttar-pradesh/no-existence-of-love-jihad-in-up-govt-tells-hc_1470404.html
- No 'Love Jihad; in UP, State Govt Tells HC
--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidercs 18:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC) Few more links (Meerut 'love jihad' victim retracts her claim),
- Love jihad row takes new turn in in Uttar Pradesh
- Love jihad row takes new turn in in Uttar Pradesh
- Meerut Woman Goes Back on Statement in Blow to 'Love Jihad' Pitch
- Meerut girl denies rape and forceful conversion, 'love jihad' theory jolted
- Meerut woman denies 'love jihad', says she eloped
- Meerut Love Jihad row: Girl denies rape, forced conversion to Islam
--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidercs 11:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Recent update
I'm taking a stab at it. There are a few things I'm not sure what to do with, and I'm going to track them here for ease. I plan to keep adding to this as (or if) I find things I'm not sure about.
- In , we see "Reacting to Gupta's comments, SSP Shalabh Mathur said the term "love jihad" had been coined only to create fear and divide society along communal lines." What does SSP mean? Is that a person whose opinion is worth individually calling out?
--Moonriddengirl 18:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Moonriddengirl: SSP means Senior Superintendent of Police, for details you may look into List of police ranks in India & Superintendent of police (India). The rank is equal to "Deputy Commissioner of Police" and is one of the high ranking posts who supervises big/important districts.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidercs 18:14, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you! :) I'll put that in, then. --Moonriddengirl 18:15, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Okay, I'm out of time. Hopefully that's a good start - there are going to be tons more sources emerging, and we'll probably need to tighten the balance to make sure that we give proper weight to everything and not too much attention to this current wave. It's just kind of hard to assess how 2014 will stand in the long run against previous waves. Right now, it's looking much larger to me, but we're in the middle of it.
Since Chicago Tribune picked up the Foreign Policy piece, I have found it very useful for background. Its international spread gives it more weight as a reliable source. Nevertheless, I have attributed it.
Those were some great sources. --Moonriddengirl 20:00, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Moonriddengirl: Thanks for all the effort.--Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haidercs 20:42, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I was going to complain about the Chicago Tribune piece. There are myriads of reasons for Hindu-Muslim tensions and distrust. To attribute it all to the Partition of India is pretty dumb. I would actually like to see the section 1.2 of the article dispensed with. Newspapers as reliable sources for news, not for propounding theories. So, this is actually against WP:RS policies. Kautilya3 (talk) 21:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- Obviously, I don't think so, so let's see what others think and get consensus. :) (Worthy of note - it doesn't attribute "all" - it says there are roots in it, which is an entirely different thing.) --Moonriddengirl 22:41, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I was going to complain about the Chicago Tribune piece. There are myriads of reasons for Hindu-Muslim tensions and distrust. To attribute it all to the Partition of India is pretty dumb. I would actually like to see the section 1.2 of the article dispensed with. Newspapers as reliable sources for news, not for propounding theories. So, this is actually against WP:RS policies. Kautilya3 (talk) 21:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
To further clarify that it's not attributed to all one thing, the article includes a new background section on marriage traditions. It could really use something on politics, as over and over again the sources relate this to political tensions between parties in India. Unfortunately, that looks like a really massive undertaking for somebody who knows next to nothing about politics in India. I could try to do it, but I think I'd need a ton more time than I have. --Moonriddengirl 12:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2014
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Muslim may marry "People of the Book", interpreted by most to include Jews and Christians, with the inclusion of Hindus disputed.No gender inequalities 125.22.43.16 (talk) 06:50, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 07:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
By which or under which?
Both are correct, but our usual writing standard for this article has been supportive towards under which. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:28, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
removal of section
A section of this article was removed today here by reason that "News papers are WP:RS for only news, not commentary." I'm restoring pending more information on this. WP:IRS says that commentary in newspapers "are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author" - what we have here is precisely that: statements explicitly attributed to the editor or author. I believe we need more information to remove this material in this context. --Moonriddengirl 21:50, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, I remember complaining about it when it first got inserted. I think it is totally over the top. Even assuming that we can use news commentary with in-text attribution, why would we want to do it? What do we know about this reporter that makes his opinion so important to go into an encyclopedia? Do we have corroboration from any other source, preferably a scholarly source, that goes even remotely near his theory? And, why do we need to give an entire section to a random opinion of a random reporter? What about WP:WEIGHT? Kautilya3 (talk) 22:23, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- As the article notes, Kautilya3, his piece was run in one paper and picked up by another. The author is a widely published journalist () who has been cited in a number of books (). It's not an entire section, but a subsection. I have no issue with merging those with the other sections, but the current divisions seem helpful structurally. I'm open to feedback from others here, just as I was when you mentioned your concerns last time. :) --Moonriddengirl 22:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- Most of those are false hits. He has only a handful of citations, probably owing to some coverage of Glen Beck. He doesn't show any expertise in India or South Asia. I would say the right amount of weight is one sentence, that too only if we are discussing the views of a number of scholars. Remember that Misplaced Pages is supposed to represent scholarly consensus, not any one scholar's views. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 23:16, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- How many citations are a handful? I see writing for The Atlantic, Foreign Policy, Mother Jones, Washington Monthly, Salon, The Las Angelas Review of Books, Reuters, and the New Reublic, among others. That's without touching the books where he's cited. And, again, this particular article was picked up and run by a second publication at least. --Moonriddengirl 00:14, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
- Most of those are false hits. He has only a handful of citations, probably owing to some coverage of Glen Beck. He doesn't show any expertise in India or South Asia. I would say the right amount of weight is one sentence, that too only if we are discussing the views of a number of scholars. Remember that Misplaced Pages is supposed to represent scholarly consensus, not any one scholar's views. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 23:16, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- As the article notes, Kautilya3, his piece was run in one paper and picked up by another. The author is a widely published journalist () who has been cited in a number of books (). It's not an entire section, but a subsection. I have no issue with merging those with the other sections, but the current divisions seem helpful structurally. I'm open to feedback from others here, just as I was when you mentioned your concerns last time. :) --Moonriddengirl 22:46, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Removal of the word "alleged"
The word "alleged" has been removed from two sentences in this article. I have restored the status quo pending consensus. The second time it was removed with the notation: "it specifically notes that cases have been prosecuted against people who committed rape jihad". I see nothing in this article about any individual being convicted of love jihad. User:BeastBoy3395, can you please point out any such convictions? I note that in November 2014 this reliable source was still referring to it as an unproven, alleged activity. (It's important to note that the question is not whether forced conversion exists; it's a question of whether people are feigning love to trick women into converting - that is, practicing "love jihad" to reach this conversion.) --Moonriddengirl 12:13, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- I have a problem with keeping the word "alleged" in; I just think it's dubious since, as the article lower down states:In October 2009, the Karnataka government announced its intentions to counter "Love Jihad", which "appeared to be a serious issue". A week after the announcement, the government ordered a probe into the situation by the CID to determine if an organised effort existed to convert these girls and, if so, by whom it was being funded. One woman whose conversion to Islam came under scrutiny as a result of the probe was temporarily ordered to the custody of her parents, but eventually permitted to return to her new husband after she appeared in court, denying pressure to convert. In April 2010, police used the term to characterize the alleged kidnapping, forced conversion and marriage of a 17-year-old college girl in Mysore.
- I mean, come on. Are we supposed to believe that these police officers are lying? BeastBoy3395 (talk) 13:04, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- That question doesn't merit an answer. A charge is an allegation until it is proved in a court. It can't be reported as a fact until scholarly sources acknowledge it so. Misplaced Pages reports scholarly consensus. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:09, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Kautilya3. "appeared to be" is by no means proof of activity, and the rest of that section makes quite clear that official investigations - including the probe that was ordered - have found no substantiation. Until there is such proof, this remains an allegation. --Moonriddengirl 13:13, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
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