Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 10:17, 30 July 2006

Reference used

Most of the content of this page is from Elst's homepage at http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/ Imc 22:57, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Discussion about controversial Elst

It is impossible to speak of K. Elst without mentionning the very controversial aspects of his writings. I have added a few sentences, with a general reference, and added a link in the External links which help to better contemplate the rather particular point of view that K. Elst represents. AlexOriens 7, Jan 2006.

Yes, but Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research. René Guénon's (1886-1951) "Introduction Générale à l'Etude des Doctrines Hindoues" is rather irrelevant for a biography of Elst. I don't think he made links between the israeli-palestinian conflict and Ayodhya or else please provide sources that Elst makes links between Ayodhya and the israeli-palestinian conflict. Your other assertions like the conspiracy theory of a vast campaign are not npov either. The link you added is a internet forum discussion from a partisan website.

AlexOriens The sentences I added are not from any original research stuff. I just mentionned the controversies about Elst. René Guénon citation is on the contrary extremely relevant, not for a biography of Elst (I never said that, and it is not in any "Biography" section), but to understand the general setting of someone's referring to the founder of the Arya Samaj doctrine. The links made by Elst between the israeli-palestinian conflict and Ayodhya are from his book "Ayodhya: the case against the temple" which has a chapter 8 entitled: "From Ayodhya to Nazareth". And the rest is not about "conspiracy theory" but just about facts. However, I admit to suppress that latter part, as it is a matter of controversy. The link I added is not an internet forum: it is a a collection of mails between Elst and a famous Indologist, R. Zydenbos. I admit we can discuss about how to make addings and modifications about Elst's section in Misplaced Pages, but it is impossible to deny the controversies about K. Elst. AlexOriens 7, Jan 2006.

AlexOriens 8, Jan 2006. Without any intention to focus and insist, I have to say thay the controversies about K. Elst are not only about Hinduism in itself, but also on his rather particular and politically oriented "views" on the Hindu/Muslim problems in India. The sentence I added about the Ayodhya/Nazareth link is not an invention of myself, it comes directly from Elst's writings (see above). Some events involving Hindus and Muslims in India are interpreted by Dr. K. Elst and other few people in a very specific way and they serve, among other things, as a basis for a so-called "rewriting of Indian history", which is of very controversial nature, and, in fact, very controversed by many Hindus themselves and also by the vast majority of Indologists. Hence I believe that a sentence must be added on that subject, because that subject made an important part of Dr. K. Elst's "works" in a recent past. If the sentence I added about the Ayodhya/Nazareth link is not the best for a wikipedian, then may be we can try to find another sentence if you want, but, in an article on Elst, the subject cannot be hidden.

Since when is René Guénon an authority on Hinduism? Elst's works are relatively free from political bias. He writes truthfully about communalism and is critical of the political establishment in India, including the Sangh and Congress governments. "I don’t need to belong to ... any specific ideological categories in order to use my eyes and ears."

AlexOriens Elst free from political bias ? Impossible to admit ! Voice of India, in which many of his books are published, is pretty well known to be on the far-far-right side. I am not saying that Elst is linked to a particular political movement, it does not matter in fact, I do say that his opinions take place in a framework that has a strong political bias. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedy, and as such, in it, we can contemplate the origin of ideological movements. Can you understand the difference ? Elst's books and articles speak by themselves, whatever rectifications Elst might add to simulate his views are not biased. And, on Hinduism, yes, I'm sorry but Guenon's "Introduction..." is infinitely much more valuable, and of a very different nature, by the way. You will note that I don't mention Guenon here about Hinduism in general, I just mention a chapter of his "Introduction..." ("Vedanta westernised") to help better understand in what current Elst's influences take place. AlexOriens 12, Jan 2006.

Elst, through his writings, is actually attempting to detract Hindu revivalists from taking a non-secular course. He affirms a thoroughly secular approach in his works. I seriously doubt that encouraging this impartial (i.e. everyone is equal under the law) attitude can be considered politically biased. By this, you are claiming that Elst is unreasonably critical or prejudiced. According to this logic, Martin Luther King is also biased for having promoted equality. You are incorrect in claiming that Elst "is linked to a particular political movement". Perhaps you should mention which movement this is? Writing books does not make him part of any movement or ideology. This article is not about Hinduism, so mention of Guenon's book (or a chapter of it) does not belong here in the first place. I (as of now) fail to understand how this book on "Hindu Doctrine" from 1921 would shed any light on why Elst would write specifically about communalism (and Ayodhya), which seems to have reached a peak 70 years after Guenon's book. I haven't read this, so I encourage you to post excerpts showing these "currents" which shape Elst's "influences". Hopefully these will show if there is anything that substantiates these allegations. At any rate, Elst has made it clear that he is not a Hindu and most of his writings don't go into too great detail about Hindu doctrines.

1- You allowed yourself to change my answer by deletting a sentence of it: "linked to a particular political movement" and, after that, pretend that I said that Elst is actually linked to a political movement, which exactly the contrary of what I wrote. AlexOriens

- Not 100% sure how this happened, but I must've cut out your text. Sorry. If you go back and check, you will see I have also edited out some of my own language and might have mistaken your line for my quotation. However, if I wanted to "fraud" I wouldn't have quoted your original statement. I think you're overreacting, I also know how Misplaced Pages functions. An embarassing mistake though. - Now that I've looked over the edit history, I realize I might've hit enter while applying cut and paste to import the quote into my reply. This has upset me though, because the last thing I wanted was to be accused of this. Once again, my apologies.

2- So before you modify my answer, I did wrote: "I am not saying that Elst is linked to a particular political movement, it does not matter in fact" which should answer the first part of your "honest" interrogations.

3- For your question about Guenon, let me remind you what I wrote (and this time you did not delete it, which lends me to think you undergo serious problems in reading people's quotations in a non-distorted way whenever you don't attempt at modificating at people writings): "You will note that I don't mention Guenon here about Hinduism in general, I just mention a chapter of his "Introduction..." ("Vedanta westernized") to help better understand in what current Elst's influences take place".

4- Yes, Ayodhya events comes 70 years after Guenon's book, but this is not the point here. Try to exercize yourself in findind how typical writers of what is described in "Vedanta westernised" appear in Elst writings. That wouldn't be too difficult, if you read the chapter I mentionned. The quotations you are asking for are entirely in Elst productions. AlexOriens

- I don't totally disagree with your points, but asked only for you to prove them by posting excerpts from the book. Since you haven't, I'll try to get access to it before we continue this discussion.

AlexOriens I will post what you ask for very soon. In the meantime it will serve for others authors that make use of Elst's writings, like Gauthier. AlexOriens 13, Jan 2006.

- My purpose behind editing this article was only to weed out any false assumptions about Elst and his work. The edited article mentions "a stream of thinking not devoid of political motives". This implies that Elst himself may not be politically motivated, but this stream (i.e. thought current) is. Hence, this is what I meant by you appearing to link Elst with a movement or ideology. On one hand, (you and I appear to agree) Elst is personally unattached to any movement. But then you say his writings are linked to a movement with a political bias. I find this perplexing , since his works (or the stream of thinking his works are a part of) cannot be linked to any movement if Elst himself isn't linked to it. Anyway, I have no objection to the paragraphs you've added as long as they're true. That's why I'd asked for a deeper explanation of the paragraphs and then for proof of their validity. I think we're done for now, but I'd definitely like to know more about the "Vedanta westernised" chapter.

AlexOriens I accept your apologies and I admit that you cut my sentence by mistake. I will post very soon the references you ask. AlexOriens 13, Jan 2006.

AlexOriens 15, Jan 2006. Here are the references and comments you requested. Firstly, let me notice that I don't agree with you on the fact that Elst is (or is not) personnally linked to a particular political movement. I just said that Elst's personnal political involvement does not matter in the type of questions we are discussing, and it is only Elst's concern, not ours. The most important point is to understand the context of Elst's writings: someone can display political extremism in books or articles, without being personnaly engaged in a particular extremist movement, for obvious reasons of discretion. Let us remark that Elst's writings are published by a Delhi publisher which strongly advocates for the far right. To my opinion, that clearly indicates the political bias that we might found in Elst's works. However, we will find such bias by a direct inspection.

Now let's go into the details. Elst's works and interests fall into the following categories:

1- the "Aryan Invasion Theory" debate,

2- The Ayodhya events and "communalism" problems in India,

3- Strong anti-Islamic propaganda through the use of "secularism", and, in the same vein, but to a lower extent, psychological considerations about Jesus and Christianity.

4- A particular standpoint on Hinduism through the interest on the so-called "Hindu revivalism".

I will not comment on another field that interests Elst, according to Elst's own declarations: european neo-paganism and the New Age movement, although it may give other interesting indications of the connections between apparently different ideological currents.

The "Aryan Invasion Debate" is of a very special nature. It has never been considered in India and Hinduism, through all its long history, but only in very modern times:

Swami Dayananda Saraswati was perhaps the first to dispute the Aryan myth

(Michel Danino and Sujata Nahar, "The Invasion That Never Was" -Michel Danino is an author very close to Elst's views-).

So where stands the basis of such a debate ? According to Elst himself, this new "debate" originates from Dayananda Saraswati and others. In other words, Elst, who presents himself as a strong supporter of Hindu "revivalism" has to admit that this question has been, during more than 5 millenaries, of no interest for the vast majority of Hindus. That is quite right: the question is rooted in a political agenda that originates, among others, from the creator of Arya Samaj. This is why I say that Elst views inherit from such an ideological ambiance. Please consider the importance of the AIT for Elst and other people that share the same ideological foundations: the thing is merely political in nature. On the "revivalism" side (a topic that interests Elst at most), here again we find most of Elst's influences:

This 'revivalism' is not a recent phenomenon but began in the early stages of the British rule of India by groups like Arya Samaj and Brahmo Samaj under the leadership of influential reformers like Vivekananda, Dayananda Saraswati and Swami Shraddhanand. Nor is this revivalism limited to those within the Sangh Parivar or other similarly oriented organizations. According to Elst "the most interesting formulations of Hindu revivalist thought have been provided by individuals outside the said organizations, from Bankimchandra Chatterjee and Sri Aurobindo to Ram Swarup , Sita Ram Goel and their younger friends. (p.584).

(source: Koenraad Elst--Sangh Parivar's Apologist by By A. Khan, http://communalism.blogspot.com/2003_03_01_communalism_archive.html).

Incidentally, on the anti-Islamic side of Elst's stance, we find another reference to the founder of Arya Samaj. Other references to Dayananda Saraswati are easily found in Elst's writings, so we can say, at least, the the founder of Arya Samaj lies at an important place in Elst framework:

Thus, Swami Dayananda Saraswati's Satyartha Prakash ("Light of Truth", 1875), probably the very first Hindu writing to polemicize against Christianity and Islam, has interiorized some of the prophetic-monotheistic categories upheld by Christian preachers But Dayananda at least took the trouble of studying and criticizing Christian and Islamic scriptures in detail, and of showing that there was much "anti-human" and "lacking in spirituality" in them . By contrast, later Hindu spiritualists like Vinoba Bhave, the Ramakrishna Mission, and numerous Swamis and secularists, have merely memorized a handful of goody-goody points from the Bible and the Quran, and hold these up as proof that "Hindus have a lot to learn from them", or that "all religions essentially say the same thing". This nauseating sentimentalism has by now become an unquestionable dogma, except among those anti-Hindu secularists who insist that there is a radical difference after all

(source: "Ban this book, by K. Elst, "http://www.bharatvani.org/books/foe/ch15.htm). Also, quoting Elst himself:

The first detailed criticism of Islam, and in particular of the Quran, was written by Swami Dayananda Saraswati, founder of the Vedic reform movement Arya Samaj in 1875. He mainly lambasted the contradictions, irrational beliefs and inhumane injunctions in Islamic scripture

(K. Elst, "Wahi: the Supernatural Basis of Islam").

From the previous excerpt, see how a mere statement on the fundamental unity of the essence of different religions (a truth which is of intellectual order, not of psychological character) is interpreted by Elst as "nauseating sentimentalism".

Consequently, we can easily find what I called "the ideological ambiance" that serves as a basis for Elst, and which is precisely the one described by René Guenon in his above-mentionned book.

About Elst's comments on "revivalism", the following reference contents detailed proofs of Elst's patent lies and ideological bias: "Koenraad Elst--Sangh Parivar's Apologist" by A. Khan http://communalism.blogspot.com/2003_03_01_communalism_archive.html. Khan's point is substantiated by historical evidences carefully deleted by Elst.

Now on Elst's secularism standpoint that you mentionned. Once again, it suffices to cite Elst himself to get acquainted with his use of secularism as a weapon to dissimulate other motives:

But now, the historical evidence has definitively been verified. After every single historical and archaeological investigation had confirmed the old consensus, the secularists have now been defeated in the final test. The deceit turns out to be their own. Their lies stand exposed and recorded for all to see. Their strategy to sabotage peace and justice in Ayodhya was based on history falsification. With all the blood on their hands, they have disgraced the fair name of secularism. Henceforth, we should be kind enough to ignore them except to hear the confession of their sins. Ideas have consequences, and so do lies. Before the “eminent historians” and other militant secularists are called up to purgatory, they would do well to clear their conscience by offering restitution to the scientists and Hindus they have smeared. And by begging forgiveness from the families of the Hindu and Muslim victims of riots triggered by a controversy that could have been old history already by 1989, had there not been the secularist obstruction.

(K. Elst, "Ayodhya, the Finale -- Science versus Secularism in the excavation Debate", chapter IV).

In other words, as long as secularism substantiates Elst's point, it is of value. If not, let's reject it. But it is not "universal" secularism that is important to Elst:

"To a secularist in the Western tradition, the whole Ayodhya controversy was a non-issue.

Hence, according to Elst, secularism is geographically valued. On the Ayodhya affair, we can't rely on secularism. This is why we can say that the secularist argument is just a shadow curtain used by Elst to hide considerations of another order. Here is another reference on Elst's curious use of "secularism": good against Islam, bad for the study of "communal" problems:

The fundamental mistake of Indian secularism is that Hinduism is put in the same category as Islam and Christianity. Islam and Christianity's intrinsic irrationality and hostility to independent critical thought warranted secularism as a kind of containment politic.

(source: Bharatiya Janata Party vis-a-vis Hindu Resurgence - By Koenraad Elst p. 9-142). Also, on the use of secularism, here is what Elst writes in "Ayodhya and After: Issues Before Hindu Society"

The most important opponents of Hindu society today are the interiorized colonial rulers of India, the alienated English-educated and mostly Left-leaning elite that noisily advertises its 'secularism'.

Such a sentence should also give a clear indication on Elst's political preferences, according to a question you raised above, and should definitively be called as an answer to people who make the affirmation that Elst is "politically unbalanced", which is an enormity regarding Elst's ideological references. Also, same reference:

The two enemies of this effort are the pseudo-secularist morbidity that glorifies the destroyers of Hindu culture, and discourages its study altogether...

As a matter of fact, the real greatness of India rests in its long tradition of true Hindu Spiritual Masters, from the original Rishis period through Sankaracarya, Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, up to the present times with Nisargadatta Maharaj and others. Each of them being aware the real Unity veiled under the mantle of the various religions.

In conclusion, Elst's stance suffer from very partisan and ideological bias, and it is important to warn readers in a non-partisan encyclopedy like Misplaced Pages. AlexOriens 15, Jan 2006.

Political Motives

vkhaitan Finally I changed The whole paragraph making it more neutral and removed POVs. The reason behind why I wanted to remove "vedanta westernized" reference is because it is Point of View of an author on a topic, which is highly subjective. Hence Stressing upon the fact that he is actually well describing about streams of thinking is POV. But there was one merit in the paragraph that it wanted readers to understand that His opinions are closely related to A stream of thinking. So I elaborated upon that fact so that readerss could get to know about two streams of opinion. --Vinay Khaitan 14:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

vkhaitan "Secular Historians" word is incorrect, because there has been many questions over their secularism, particlarly because of biasing towards islam. --Vinay Khaitan 16:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

TwoHorned After having read Vinay Khaitan, I responded to him (see above) and noted that he suppressed the paragraph on "Vedanta westernised" for purely POV arguments. So I put the paragraph back. TwoHorned

vkhaitan I myself have read various books by Koenraad Elst. Interesting to current context, I have read

1. Aryan Invasion Theory - UPDATE
2. Psychology of Prophetism- A secular Look at bible .

Both the book are available on the web, as far as I remember. I think, this is quite easily acknowledgeable that third party comments over any issue is not good evidence to put forth. We should analyze things not based upon some commentary by some author, but by direct inspections in the books and articles written by koenraad elst.

In my answer, I quoted Elst himself TwoHorned.

Yes, but also third party reference to show that really elst wanted to be biased. That third party reference, according to my study, is utterly biased. The quotes, which you have quoted from his book shows nothing wrong with elst. Elst doesn't recognize any kind of unity among religions, purely they preaches different thing. At any rate, it doesn't show any kind of bias of elst.

The criticisms of Dr. Koenraad Elst are :-

1. His views are in sync with special type of ideology stance of Hinduism. 2. The ideological stance have political motives(and this is important to note on wikipedia of political motives) 3. His view about islam/christianity is biased and he is partial towards secularists idea. 4. more .....

I would reply to specific allegation of "link to political motives". Basically Koenraad Elst is in sync with Hidutva side in ongoing conflict between communist historians and nationalist/hindutva historians. I do not link Hindu historian wave to any kind of political motives, in the same vein as I do not link communist historians to any kind of political motives.

TwoHorned Is it a joke ? Truly Hindu historians may not link to political motives, but Hindutvadi historians do.

Vinay Khaitan okay, so lets get the facts straight. Most of the real competent history work in AIT debate has been done by historians who are published by VoiceOfIndia publication. ALL of those historians are outsider to RSS-BJP. the founder and his close associate actually had been connected to communist movement(till the point, they saw anti-indian element in communist movement)! Read their biography.

In fact, elst criticised RSS for not publicizing these works and publicising their own low-grade think tank booklets. So actually, there are no competent "Hindutvavadi" historians. In fact, the first massive work of OIT formulations was done by "Shrikant Talegiri" (perhaps after rigourous studies over decade(s)). After reading his book, I really applaud the work done by Shrikant Talegiri.--Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

TwoHorned By the way, why not just rely on plain and authentic "historians" without added propaganda? Are you saying that on these subjects all historians are either marxist or on the far-right realm ? What a disappointing duality! TwoHorned

Vinay Khaitan its a real disappointing scenario of indian history. In fact, I can view some historians as hindu nationalist approach, but never I see elst biased to any side. He has criticised both sided.

That does not mean he is right. AlexOriens

If you really want to know about communism scenario in india, read this article of arun shourie, West bengal communist government history communalisation--Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC) Vinay Khaitan Here the word "politcs" is being used in literal sense instead of as a metaphor(the metaphor means "saying something else, intending something else"). This is an intellectual battle. The nationalist side sees the current aryan invasion theory as a colonial imposition to malign their glorious past. This is an open fact that British did really do this intentionally. But what is right and what is wrong in aryan invasion theory, that is to be determined still. The wikipedia article has nothing to do with that debate. Still I give some clue to understand the Koenraad's intentions. Vinay Khaitan

Sorry but that debate is at heart of Elst's stance. TwoHorned

okay. If you want to know about elst's impartiality ,read this article by him Merits of Lord Macauley . yes it is heart of mine too actually. And you should know that Elst has criticized both OIT/AIT side. --Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Vinay Khaitan Ongoing archeaology and use of latest technologies has given ample amount of evidence of Aryan native theory. Because of lack of any kind of evidence for invasion, there are no takers remained of Aryan Invasion theory. Communists now promote "Aryan Migration Theory". Where as Nationalist historians promote "Out of India Theory"(aryan native theory). All the evidences only points towards Aryan native version(the latest entrant in the mounting evidences is genetic studies, not done by nationalist historians of course ;-) ), except one which is still troubling the native aryan version. That is linguistic aspect. The linguistic relationship between Indo european lanugage points towards Proto-Indo-European language existing prior to vedic sanskrit, which is not known to be existing anywhere in the world currently. These are speculations and many Hindu historian(e.g. NS Rajaram) have debunked this objection on the basis of the fact that it is mere speculation and in the past these speculations have proved many times wrong(A good example of that is linearb script). Because there are other archeological,astronomical and comparative civilization studies in favour of OIT/ANT. NOw the most important point is..... Koenraad Elst is totally against debunking Linguistic arguments by Hindu Historians. His opinion is that so many linguistic studies and their expert cant be wrong totally. In his book, He lashes upon both camp(hindu/communist) for acting as if they have successfully conquered all the difficulties of their theory.

The point was to mention that AIT, as it is contemplated by Elst, is very modern in nature, that is was of no interest for traditional hindus during millenaries, and that it is was started from political motives geared by the British Empire. I will not write one more time what was explained above... TwoHorned

Certainly AIT had political motives(as have been accepted by max muller too), like nazi propoganda. but it doesn't mean every argument from this has to be wrong. That's why elst notes the merit of AIT too. --Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Vinay Khaitan sadly, ideological battle of history has turned into political gamut too. Communist historians have always been dominant in History circle, hence they had power to push their standpoints(if you had experience of conditions of Delhi University and JNU, you would have understood it better). So politics is also being utilized for pushing own standpoint. But, the bottomline is that politics may have been involved in pushing standpoint, but not the motive. Vinay Khaitan

Once again: historians are not divided between communists and far-righters. Please get some education. TwoHorned

Surely they should never be. But in india, this is a reality. And its roots are deeper, going back to independence time. Anyway, if you don't want to see them as different camp, I would be more than happy. Then the word 'streams of thinking" should be removed.--Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Second thing about islam, he may have some factual inaccuracy(although I dont know any), but blaming directly of "carefully deleting the facts' is too much of blame in any context.

It is on the contrary an extremely serious drawback for anyone attempting at doing history.TwoHorned

surely, but elst is not one of them.--Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

His all psychological standpoint about prophetism is his opinion and analysis, but the fact is that Quran and Hadis shows political base of how islam has evolved.

Just saying that his view about Islam is extremely particular. Nothing more. And that must be mentionned in a non-partisan encyclopedia like Misplaced Pages. And your sentence on Islam is POV. TwoHorned

Vinay Khaitan if you want to mention his views on islam, mention it. I would like it(so that some reality of genocide in india comes out). as far as POV is concerned, the talk page can certainly have POV :) . I was just giving you some hint, how to understand islam. Vinay Khaitan

Not sure it's a good idea to learn Islam from you or Elst...AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan About word secular, it is really disappointing that you cant even understand the two types of secular word he is using. In one case of secular, where he is talking positively, he is using it in its real sense. In second type, where he is opposing, he is using it in sarcastic tone. The reason is that muslim appeasement and opposition of hindu cause is being always done in the name of "secularism" And there are always so much of allegation of communalism on hindu-side of affair. Hence "secularism" word is used many many times as sarcastic tone and many times it is just a synonym of pseudo-secularism. Vinay Khaitan

So you are saying that Elst's problem is really muslim appeasement ? So why is it so ? Please tell us.TwoHorned

Vinay Khaitan I would be more than glad to enlighten amount this issue. In his book "Negationism in india: Concealing the record of islam" he uses pharse like "Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU, the Mecca of secularism and negationism) in Delhi" (just to show his sarcastic tone throught their books and articles).As far as muslim appeasement is concerned, there are some reasons behind it. I you want to know why, I would elaborately write it in quite detail mostly. it is somewhat politically connected. Why the communist government communalised the history, can you think? I hope, some of the points here should be quite enlightening to you. --Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Vinay Khaitan There are many allegation on Elst, I dont buy those arguments too. But for the case of defaming words on Misplaced Pages, I think this much is enough. In fact, I want to change the tone of whole para, currenlty I want immediately of "political" word to be removed. Misplaced Pages is not about controversial arguments to be ushered. one more thing, If you have any doubt about islam being same as other religions and teaching essentially the same, first of all read Quran and Hadis yourself. Vinay Khaitan

This is POV. TwoHorned

Vinay Khaitan I am talking to you according to my POV. for islam, please read some historical documents about its development. those are well recorded in quran/hadis. It is better if you understand the political theory and then verify from quran/hadis.--Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

AlexOriens The main starting point of all that discussion was to mention that Elst is extremely controversial and that must be mentionned in a non-partisan encyclopedy like Misplaced Pages. Just browse other articles about controversial authors: that point is always mentionned. Misplaced Pages is about knowledge and facts. Controversies about Elst have been exemplified and demonstrated by the arguments explained above. AlexOriens.

Vinay Khaitan Then write a different paragraph about criticism, that is okay. But accusing of political motive is more than just even POV.--Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, about your sentence on Quran, just recall that reading sacred texts, be they Quran or Vedas, can be done with or without understanding. TwoHorned

surely, but I have done it within context and with understanding.--Vinay Khaitan 16:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

When you are discussing with people in the "Discussion" part on Misplaced Pages, just try to put your answers below the text, without re-editing the sentences of your counterparts. What you have done with my addings is quite scandalous. Try to learn for yourself Misplaced Pages's basics. Let me warn you, as it has been done already here, that Misplaced Pages's contents is recorded, so people can easily see the parts you moved. TwoHorned

Vinay Khaitan If that really happened, please readd those deleted sentences. That happened unintentionally and I apologise for that. I don't think that re-editing talk-pages comments just for the sake of clarity is anyway harmful. I have seen this happening. Vinay Khaitan

Discussion on the "Vedanta westernized" quotation

Vinay Khaitan One more important thing. Apart from "political motives", I am also unhappy with the "René Guénon'" thing. It is well described or not, that is a POV. if you want to mention that book, please either write it in this form "René Guénon' wrote about elst that ......" or "René Guénon' describes this like this" or something like that. Remember that sentence should not look like evaluating the writing of Rene as good/bad/whatever. --Vinay Khaitan 17:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It not my intention to follow a discussion with you on these matters. I just want to recall that the excerpt on "Vedanta westernised" has been put in this Misplaced Pages after a long discussion done by AlexOriens. It has been substantiated, discussed by different people, and given citations and examples, as it is required by Misplaced Pages's rules. You can't cancel other's works just because you don't like it. So the deleted paragraph has been put back. TwoHorned

Vinay Khaitan You are free to not follow discussion. "discussed by different people" ? I don't see more than 2-3 people at all! And most of them have not read much of Elst at all, so you were able to prove yourself. I had been actually reading quite a lot of elst lately. As far as POV is concerned, this is not possible to have POV on main article at all, whether you follow the discussion or not. it was never substantiated. So it is better to put forth the paragraph as an opinion of author "René Guénon", instead of evaluating the work of "René Guénon" as Good( evaluation is a POV). I had actually added the paragraph of AIT only to articulate your good motive to let the readers know about two "streams of thinking".
I would delete the paragraph because of POV, as mentioned quite explicitly above, if you don't give arguments why it is not POV. If you again put it back, I may ask for administration arbitration. Vinay Khaitan

TwoHorned Just to sum up with: Rene Guenon's citation is just here to mention a chapter of his book, "Vedanta westernised" which is given to underline the Arya-Samaj connection with some of the topics adressed by Elst. AlexOriens's citations and development substantiates that, as it can be seen above. If you don't agree, then ok, ask for arbitration, but accusing others of not knowing their subject, as you do, is not very convincing either... TwoHorned

Vinay Khaitan If that is the case, then write whatever that chapter wants to tell about elst in connection to arya samaj. But don't write that chapter is really correctly describing elst.Second thing, Elst is not only about arya samaj connection, that is actually miniscule of points. He is much much more than that, hence the book cant describe him properly too! In any case, the POV of Rene is not acceptable . --Vinay Khaitan 18:39, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

AlexOriens I will answer your last remark but let me comment as a whole your preceding sentences. The main point about the inclusion of Rene Guenon's reference here is to put forward the "intellectual" framework on which Elt's influences hinge on. I don't tell that Elst is personnally related to Arya Samaj or other more recent organisations of a more political character, it does not matter, I just mention that book to explain from where his stance comes from. Arya Samaj is merely unimportant today, but it was the expression of something that has had some importance in the beginning of the XXth century. "Vedanta westernised" does not describe Elst (Guenon died in 1951 !), and it is not Guenon's POV either, it contains the explanation of the origin of currents that reapearred later. To answer more preciselly your question, the chapter that interests us here is the one called "Vedanta westernised", first two pages, in the paragraph describing the origin of Arya Samaj. It is here for the reasons explained above, I won't recall them again. The influences that Guenon describes come from very suspect milieux in which are found, among others, the antitraditional action of Brahma (followed rapidly by Arya)- Samaj and other reformers which where clearly the puppets of some action coming from the British Empire and strongly related to anglo-saxon neo-spiritualism of XIXth century. This is demonstrated in Guenon's chapter, just read it. On that subject, you may find it also very useful to read what Guenon has to say about Arya Samaj in another book: "Theosophism: history of a pseudo-religion" which covers also some aspects of our discussion. And it concerns Elst because of his spontaneaous and self-declared interest in such reformers (see above). Of course, other currents pave the way of Elt's works, but that one cannot be ignored. If you disagree, try to prove that the above demonstration is false. I can personnally engage with you a discussion on that matter. Now let me briefly comment on some of your preceding remarks.

Vinay Khaitan I have replied separately about the arya samaj connection. That description is purely to show that elst is not linked to that kind of deformations(assuming guenon to be right), but he evaluates their work as a historian. So your dubious connection is not of any use.--Vinay Khaitan 08:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

AlexOriens About your words "dubious connections", see my answers in the appropriate A. Samaj section. AlexOriens

AlexOriens 1- Saying that indian historians dramatically fall into your two categories ("communists" and "far-righters") is extreme exageration.

Vinay Khaitan No. Try to find out the names of famous historians of indian circle and you will immediately know about this issue. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens But, admitting that would be true, it wouldn't matter however, for quite one good reason: most indologists are not of Indian origin, so they don't fall into your dichotomy. For the vast majority of indologists, Elst is nothing else than a blatant impostor and a vicious lier, grounded with very suspect political agenda.

Vinay Khaitan Elst has very nicely said about that foreign current indologist views, why they are so. The problem with indology watchers are that they get to know about "secular history" and "communalisation" from those historians who call themselves as secular historian. This is what is the power equation in academic circles, which is problematic to the correct history. Elst has many times pointed towards this power equation.
also try to think why communist historians are biased towards islam , when they don't have any connection os ideology with islam(if at all, that is only against islam). Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens You can't rely and refer to academics when it serves your intentions (like referring Elts as an historian like you did above, or referring to scientific evidences or official archeology) and dismiss the international community of professional Indologists when they don't follow your opinions or Elst's. This is not very honest, and quite typical of those individuals that share Elst's opinions or yours. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan As far as Indology are concerned, AIT scepticism with good evidences have started late 20th century. AIT has dominated and still dominate the academic circle. AIT scepticism, in spite of of good evidences, have not got such a good academic exposure. Hence this is quite normal that people still see all the evidences with AIT/AMT coloured eyes. History very much are coloured with prevalent theories especially in those area, whose historical evideces are scarce(like ancient india). Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens If you don't believe me on that point, just have a look on the discussions on the famous Indology list.

Vinay Khaitan I have many times read that list. Have the study of why Elst had to leave that list. I don't understand the level of those intellectual who immediately stoop to the level of name-calling and hatred. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens You say that the founder of VOI was a communist ? May be, if you say so, but so what ? Does that change the general "colour" of VOI publications ? We are talking on ideologies, not on individuals.

Vinay Khaitan Yes. I know it. And try to find out why so by the biographies of Sita-ram Goel and Ramswarup. The reason is apolitical motive and it was a reaction to ongoing aggression on hindu causes.

AlexOriens 2- You should be more careful when saying things like AIT was supported by nazi-propaganda, that could be very problematic for the POV you represent, you know.

Vinay Khaitan heh, I just did a "labelling" to AIT as communist historians do the labelling of "AIT sceptics" as communal. Max mulller died much before nazis. He made the big part of original conceptions of AIT(driven by political motives of British).

AlexOriens And that would be quite funny also: would you dare pretend, for instance, that Tilak was driven by pan-germanist ideas ?

Vinay Khaitan nopes, neither to max-muller :). Initially the comparative linguistics gave such a good arguments in favour of AIT, that many nationalist swayed away.

AlexOriens 3- On the heineous diatribe of Elst against Islam, upon which you seem to agree, just let me recall that Metaphysics does not say that all religions are the same, but that there is one and only one truth, veiled under the mantles of different religions. This is rooted in Vedanta. For instance, can you find a single assertion of the pilar of Advaita Vedanta, Shri Sankara, against the prophet of Islam ? You won't. That the proponents of the different religions don't understand it, that is another problem. But blaming on the religion itself, as Elst does it, is extremely perverse. And that weapon could be used against Hinduism also, just think about it. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan To tell you the fact, "all religions essence unity" what is comonly told by all hindus. I came to this conclusion separately with elst(and I am happy that elst have the same views) that the problem is islam not muslims. If you want to finish islamic terrorism, do something like what kamal pasha did in turkey. Just cut musalmans from their jehadi roots. If you want to talk about islam, please get some facts of islam first, then only talk!

AlexOriens Unity can be affirmed in profane ways, but to realize it is another question... Again, blaming on Islam itself is an extremely grave accusation, and, most of all, it is pure forgery. Elst does the same in saying that he has no problems with muslims but with Islam: this is, on the contrary, the sign of a much more profound intellectual (or psychological) pathology than blaming on muslims. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan I just can't debate on pure philosphies which are without any factual content.

The Arya Samaj Connection

Vinay Khaitan A quote from Elst.

Few among the Hindu nationalists have really studied the relevant evidence. Some even reject the whole notion of historical evidence as pertinent to this question. From Jaimini’s Mimânsâ-Sûtra (BCE) down to Arya Samaj founder Swami Dayananda’s Satyârtha Prakash (ca. AD 1875), a school of Vedic scholars has believed that the Vedas were not a human creation, but were created by the Gods aeons ago and then revealed in complete form to the Vedic seers. Oddly, for people who held the Vedas in such awe, their theory flies in the face of the Vedic testimony itself: unlike the Quran, the Vedas never take the form of a statement by God addressing man. Instead, they take the form of hymns in which man is addressing the Gods. The names of the seers composing the hymns are also given, and they are put in a historical context, often with their mutual relations, genealogical kinship and faction feuds detailed in the texts themselves. Moreover, a number of presumably historical events are described or alluded to, most famously the Battle of the Ten Kings. All this points to the historicity of the Vedas: they came about as a creation of human poetry in a specific society at a specific phase in its development. But Vedic enthusiasts like Dayananda and to a lesser extent Sri Aurobindo Ghose chose to disregard this information and reinterpreted all these mundane data as spiritual metaphor. Though they also happened to reject the invasion hypothesis, they excluded the Vedic information as possible source of evidence for their own indigenist position. Aurobindo’s correct observation (1971:242-251) that the Vedas contain no mention of an Aryan invasion, thereby loses its force.

The paragraph above is quoted to debunk the elst's any kind of arya samaj connection or any historical political hindu revivalism connection. Just to show that the understandings of elst is his own, not borrowed. His views on hindu revivalism is made up by himself and by own factual studies. Hoping that this should end the debate of vedanta westernized! Elst has quoted various people from historical nationalist movements(which pertains to the topic) and then examined them. For example, he has given example of VD sawarkar that he had accepted AIT! and he is supposed to be the best advocates of Hindu cause in politics!

AlexOriens Unfortunately, your quotation subtantiates my point: Elst says that A. Samaj or Aurobindo contain good elements from a reforming point of view, but they don't go far enough in the sense that they don't accept the Vedas to be human scripture, which is a enormity from the most basic Hindu point of view ! In other words, reformers like those people or institutions offer a good starting point from Elst's point of view, but Elst proposes to go much more farther from that ground. This is why it substantiates my point: Elst considerations are linked with that previous motives, and they fall in exactly the same category than those described in "Vedanta westernized". And please note, incidentally how that pattern fits particularly well with the following excerpt of "Vedanta westernized":

...However, the spirit that had presided over the birth of this organisation did not confine itself to this one appearance, for similar attempts were set on foot as opportunity offered, though generally with no better success...

(R. Guenon, Introduction to the Study of Hindu Doctrines, p. 233).

That Elst denies a total accordance with A. Samaj or other reforming movements does not mean he finds them useless. And, by the way, how can you refer to the "defense of Hinduism against foreign agressions", as you do and as Elst pretends to do, and promote writings like those of Elst which, according to the quotation above, are so excentred from the most basic Hindu orthodoxy, and which deny the Vedas of their non-human origin ? AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan I have read your quotations in connection with arya samaj. I don't know how you interpret them as "dayananda saraswati" lying at heart of Elst? Dayanand saraswati certainly wrote against Islam and Aryan invasion theory(according to elst, probably the first). so of course elst will have to give his reference if he is trying to give history of the topic? If he doesn't give, then it is a mistake! As far as AIT is concerned, it is of recent origin(in 19th century). Hence its debunking also cant be prior of that!

BTW, the book is available on google print. So you can refer to any paragraph of 4 page "vednata westernized" to put forword your viewpoint. I have read it on google print and I think, as much I have read of elst, that doesn't say anything correct about elst's connections.

Vednata westernized 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens I did not write something like "D. Saraswati lying at heart of Elst", I said that it one of his influences,

Vinay Khaitan I would counter this statement. He has read of satyarth prakash and know about D saraswati's views. It doesn't mean that he is influenced. It only means that he has gathered that knowledge too. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens It would be very difficult for you to counter, because it is easily demonstrated. By "influences" I don't mean Elst agrees on it, but that there is a sharing of ideological ground. What is Elst's viewpoint ? He was mainly interested in political aspects of reforming movements in India and to "communal" problems ("was" because we describe his interests at that time: he seems to be less interested by those today. It would be interesting in itself to know why, by the way). Such reforming movements have political counterparts (Hindutva, RSS etc.), other have also political origins, but of a different nature. Arya Samaj is one of them. That does not mean Elst is in phase with that movement. It means it is one of his materials to elaborate his work. Elst is contemplating modern India from the viewpoint of reformers. This is the reason why Guenon's reference is not only justified, but one of the best references we can find on that matter. Not to describe Elst himself (he is such of little importance) but to get a general view of from where reforming movements come from. AlexOriens

hence justifying the "Vedanta westernised" reference which explains the origin of A. Samaj.

Vinay Khaitan no justification till now. Here I would like to iterate my understanding of vedanta westernised chapter. It talks about India reformist movements being influenced by foreign elements(political and apolitical) and hence deforming the actual spirit of Hindu spirit. Political influence and political motives are not necessarily the same. Arya samaj's political motives are not even said in that chapter. As far as elst is concerned, He has actually criticised exactly these deformations by arya samaj! Even then elst is one of those people? I am surprised! Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens Yes you are right, the one that makes use of political influence, or whatever kind of influence (here the BE) has an agenda that does not necessarily matches the reformer's movement being influenced (A. Samaj). A. Samaj political motives are not mentionned because they are of no interest here: the point was to underline the influencer, and to demonstrate the heterodoxy w.r.t. Hindu spirit. You seem to persist in misunderstanding: I am not describing Elst's political motives, nor A. Samaj's. "Political motives" here refer to the origin, not to A. Samaj intentions ! The expression "political motives" is here to signal that the reforming entities we are talking about where influenced by political considerations coming from the BE, it is not intended to describe Elst's in anyway ! I mention a book that describes, from a non-partisan and general persepective, the milieu in which reformist movements of modern India appear. A. Samaj is one of them, not the only one, but one of them. I took the A. Samaj connection here just to name one of these influences. Elst is mainly interested in what he calls "Hindu revivalism", that is to say to certain aspects of self-declared reforming entities of modern India. From that perspective, he is obliged to consider A. Samaj, and many others. He may have a critical view on it, and he does, but the main point here is to describe from where comes his materials of study, and the general ideological ambiance that is pervasive in his writings. So yes, Elst has criticised RSS, AS, BJP etc. but these are the limitings boundaries of Elst's considerations: hence the justification of a neutral reference describing these movements w.r.t. to Hindu orthodoxy. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan I think you are quite misinterpreting the chapter. The chapter doesn't say that the whole stream of thinking had political influence or political motive. It talk about hinduism being westernized. Brahma samaj could have been supported by BE, but as far as arya samaj is concerned, it is the spirit which has gone to arya samaj, that is alike creating brahmanical church. This may have been borrowed from foreign interactions, but political influence is by no means justified. The reason is that AIT scepticism and other things done by Arya samaj were detrimental to BE. The chpater doesn't claim about Arya samaj being in political influence at all even.

If you read carefully the stream is concerned only to deformations of actual spirit of Hinduism because of western influence. That spirit has nothing to do with elst.
Now, as far as RSS is concerned, it is by no means that revivalist, which is quoted in vedanta westernised chapter. The reason is that RSS didn't try to westernise things. ( I dont know, but if there are few instances, those are not of any significance). It emerged in reaction for organised retaliation of aggressions. The environment of that time required. So please try to understand that the chapter's intentions of describing Arya samaj is quite different from what elst praises it for. the chapter doesn't criticise Arya samaj for AIT, islam, christianity oppositions. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens But lets quote K. Elst and his books reviews. (By the way, I also modified the title you gave here: the name of the organisation was "Arya Samaj", and not "Aryan Samaj" as you wrote it):

Consider this crassly false statement by a leading Marxist historian about the reform movement Arya Samaj, founded in 1875 and well-known for its anti-untouchability campaigns: “The Arya Samaj was described by its followers as ‘the society of the Aryan race’. The Aryas were the upper castes and the untouchables were excluded.” The second sentence is precisely the Western indologist reading of the term Arya which the Arya Samaj sought to counter: The Samaj restored the original meaning of the term, viz. “civilized”, in particular “belonging to or expressive of the Vedic civilization”. While the Samaj was not slow in acknowledging that in its own day, the untouchables were being excluded from learning the Vedic rituals and philosophies, it worked hard to undo this exclusions.

(K. Elst, Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate, chapter 1). There Elst was attempting to counter negative appreciation on Arya Samaj. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan How that says anything about his connection as the same stream of thinking? He has criticised the arya samaj just for the deformations and lauded for other things(not mentioned in "vedanta westernised") like AIT scepticism and polemic against christian/islam. Let me also ask, what deformations you consider of Arya samaj and what were the factors influencing them(the chapter doesn't describe anything about that)? Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens The "stream of thinking" does not refer to Arya Samaj in particular, but to the general limiting boundaries of reforming movements that make the basis of Elst interests (sorry for other readers to be obliged to repeat the same sentence once again...). Elst did criticise A. Samaj, but this is not the point: the point is to show that reformers (A. Samaj and others) just take the major part of Elst considerations. The quotation is also there to show that, in that occurence, Elst takes the defence of A. Samaj, but it is of minor interest. The other quotations serve the same objective (and I include mines and yours in that respect by the way): in some of them Elst is departing from AS, in others he agrees, but that of secundary importance: what is demonstrated is that Elst is concerned by that. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan I have replied about stream of thinking and how that is unrelated to elst's stance.

AlexOriens I go forward with other quotations.

The solution is obvious: remove the intrinsically communal and separatist doctrine of Islam from the minds of its misguided followers. Educate them so that they can laugh at the primitive beliefs which have held them captive for so long, just as adults can take a laugh at their own childhood illusions.

Sounds radical? This was the solution offered by the Arya Samaj, a progressive Hindu reform movement, which put the large-scale reconversion of Muslims to the Vedic tradition high on Hindu society's agenda. Its central doctrinal book, Swami Dayananda Saraswati's Satyartha Prakash (1875), contained the first Hindu vivisection of Islamic doctrine, still a bit clumsy but on the right track. The movement had its martyrs, several authors of publications on Islam and leaders of the reconversion movement killed by Muslim activists; but it never indulged in any similar forms of violence.

(K. Elst, "BJP vis a vis Hindu resurgence", chapter 20: "How to deal with Islam). In that excerpt, Elst enlightens us on a "solution" of his own, and gives some indications about its origin as well: A. Samaj. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan and how does that prove the solution has been taken from arya samaj? I have the same solution to which I came separately from elst. In fact, the solution is very simple to know after reading over quran and hadis. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens We are not talking on Elst's intentions, nor of anyone's ! The quotation is there to show the same ground of ideological interests. AlexOriens

It is true that some Hindu revivalist movements have tried to redefine Hinduism in terms borrowed from monotheism, with rudiments of notions like an infallible Scripture (back to the Vedas: the Arya Samaj), iconoclastic monotheism (Arya Samaj, Akali neo-Sikhs), or a monolithic hierarchic organization (the RSS)...

(K. Elst, "Negationism in India, chapter 2). In that excerpt, Elst means that Arya Samaj was a starting point, but not strong enough in what he calls "Hindu revivalism". AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan Some similar things are said by rene guenon. Redefining Hinduism in influence from christian missionaries and trying to draw parallel between protestants and These revivalists. So in fact, elst conquers with Rene. And hence , elst actually looks like a third party onlooker instead of being influenced just like Rene. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens If Guenon does write that reforming movements in India where influenced by protestantism and other currents coming from anglo-saxon neo-spiritualism, he goes in a direction that is at the extreme opposite of Elst's. You can't draw comparisons between Elst and Guenon: their perspectives are of completely different nature. Elst indulges in insisting that Hinduism is polytheistic: Guenon on the contrary demonstrates that Advaita Vedanta or Shankara's doctrine of non-duality are identical, but of different formal expression, to Ibn_Arabi's metaphysics (for instance). Quite a difference in perspective, won't you think ? But this is another debate. Anyway, these preceding considerations put at their right place your above accusation about my ignorance of Islam. The knowledge of Islam your are referring to (through present time of political pressure) would be similar to that of Hinduism gotten from Elst... AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan As far as Hinduism is concerned, I have quite distince views than any of the intellectual I have read. Its a very broad issue, and saying it as polytheistic or monotheistic would be quite over-simplification. For all of my views on hinduism, I never rely anything other than Primary sources.Also, if you are here to assert that in hinduism Vedas are non-humane or it is polytheistic , you would have quite tough time for that. I know the reasons behind all of those assertions and I can guide you towards various different things too. Hinduism is quite large and has been explained by different sages as different. As far as westernization of arya samaj's view is concerned, elst's stance is not to support them for philosophical reason(hence no real support) as far as that whole paragraphi is concerned. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens 16:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC) I did say that Vedas have non-humane origin, I never said Hinduism is polytheistic.

Bipan Chandra's chronology of communalism as a 20th century phenomenon cannot explain the communal polarization of which Sikhism and the Arya Samaj were manifestations

(K. Elst, "Negationism in India, chapter 2). Same idea: Arya Samaj was an originator, and Elst dives in that current. So connection, do you think ? AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan connection? How? Sikhism came much before arya samaj. Why? the root of sikhism lies in the iconoclast emperors of Mughals. And arya samaj did the same thing at intellectual and pratical level. So if you are trying to counter "20th century communalism", what else can there be? Sikhism and Arya samaj are one of the two best examples! Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens I was interested in the Samaj citation here, not on Sikhism (I couldn't cut the sentence for sake of clarity), for the same purposes than said above: reforming entities are interesting Elst. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan But Here by no means citation of Arya samaj is because of any kind of influence at all. If he doesn't cite, then that would be big mistake. Vinay Khaitan

To quote Hindus as speaking of the “Aryan race” without explaining the semantic itinerary of the expression is tantamount to manipulating the readership into reading something into the phrase which Arya Samaj spokesmen and Aurobindo never intended.

(K. Elst, Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate, chapter 1.1). In other words: enemies of Hindu revivalism don't understand the A. Samaj. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan those enemies understand or not, that is different matter. What he is saying is that it is wrong to blame "Aryan race" term to A. samaj as defining race. Their meaning of Race was not what is usually said. Again, Rene Guenon has nothing to do with this issue. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens It does, if you read the whole book, you'd be interested in a chapter where the question of origins is mentionned. But again, that is another debate. In the quotation Elst explains that, on a problem that interests him, A. Samaj has been misunderstood. So, for what reason ? AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan Reason can be only known after reading those historians like Romila Thapar.

For a first acquaintance with the Arya Samaj and the causes it fought for, see J.T.F. Jordens: Swami Shraddhananda, His Life and Causes, CUP, Delhi 1981

(K. Elst, Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate, chapter 1.1, note 9). Still no need to refer to A. Samaj to get acquainted with Elst ? AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan To understand any writing of an author, you will always need to look into the sources cited. It doesn't mean that the person is talking because of influence of the citation. Elst has monstly enaluated works and wrote according to his own understanding. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens This is exactly what I am trying to explain: I don't say that Elst is influenced by A. Samaj only, I say it comes high on his agenda exactly in the same proportions as many other things, all of which are related to "Vedanta westernised": reforming entities in modern India. AlexOriens

Vinay KhaitanAgain, elst's interest in Arya samaj is mostly different that why Rene has interest. Vinay Khaitan

It is in this (by that time definitely the usual) sense that the Buddha used the term Arya, as in the catvAri-Arya-satyAni, “the four noble truths”, and the Arya-ashtANgika-mArga, “the noble eightfold path”, meaning that his way (more than the petty magic with which many Veda-reciting priests made a living) fulfilled the old ideals of Vedic civilization. It is with a similar intention that the modern Veda revivalists of the Arya Samaj chose the name of their organization.

(K. Elst, Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate, chapter 1.4). Elst still not sympathetic of A. Samaj ? AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan Sympathetic word is wrong here. Where Arya samaj has done their mistake, he criticised consistently. Where they are good(according to elst's evaluation) and incorrectly being criticised by others, he defends. That is quite a normal huma behaviour. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens Of course, it is possible to find some Elst's quotations that depart from Arya Samaj, but, like in the excerpt you show above, it is intended to mean that Arya Samaj was a good reformer, but not enough, like in Elst's "BJP vis a vis Hindu resurgence", "What is wrong with Hindu". The following excerpt is particularly enlightening:

In fact some narrow minded RSS leaders from Pune had tempered with the chapter in Babarao’s contribution (written by P. N. Gokhale) that deals with Babarao’s contribution to the growth of the RSS. Similarly, no acknowledgement is made of the help which the RSS received from the Arya Samaj and the Hindu Mahasabha everywhere.

(K. Elst, "BJP vis a vis Hindu resurgence", chapter 6). If RSS has to acknowledge A. Samaj, then what about Elst, do you think ? AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan elst is not revivalist like RSS and Arya Samaj. He is doing his intellectual task and fairly criticising and applauding both, RSS and Arya Samaj. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriensYes, he interested in the same problematics, but brings in propositions and "solutions" (see above) of his own. AlexOriens

As labels go, it would not be unfair to describe the Arya Samaj as "Veda fundamentalists", or Swami Karpatri and the Puri Shankaracharya as "Manuwadi fundamentalists", so India-watchers may have a point when they do conceive of the notion of "Hindu fundamentalism".

(K. Elst, "BJP vis a vis Hindu resurgence", chapter 8). AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan So you can yourself see another criticism of Arya Samaj over the same issue(for which Rene is criticising). Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens A critical view yes, but for an opposite reason. However, once again, this is not the point: I am just replacing his works inside the proper context, and showing what are Elst's preocupations. By the way (but it is unrelated to our debate): Elst could have used a more accurate expression than "Veda fundamentalists". AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan surely!

The first detailed criticism of Islam, and in particular of the Quran, was written by Swami Dayananda Saraswati, founder of the Vedic reform movement Arya Samaj in 1875. He mainly lambasted the contradictions, irrational beliefs and inhumane injunctions in Islamic scripture. Later Arya Samaj criticism of the Prophet typically focused on , not on the source of his “revelations”

(K. Elst, "Wahi: the Supernatural Basis of Islam"). That later criticism would be, among others, Elst's (as criticising Islam was 1/2 of his job at that time). So, no connection ? In the same vein (I mean about Islam):

Indians may recall that such death sentences have been carried out earlier this century: against Arya Samaj propagandists Swami Shraddhananda and Pandit Lekh Ram, and against Rajpal These murders had the desired effect, for the Arya Samaj became less straightforward in its criticism of the Prophet.

(K. Elst, Ayodhya And After , chapter 12). AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan I have already explained. And I have no connection of Arya samaj, But I do exactly same thing. In fact, any unbiased scholar would do the same thing when read the Original source(not secodary sources). Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens Again , this is not the debate. The quotation is repeated here to notice the following: Islam bashing was, at that time he wrote the book, one of his major occupations. He shared ideological currents with one of the reformers mentionned in the "Vedanta westernised" quotation. (Being A. Samaj or other is of least importance). You are trying to explain me that Elst is right in doing so, just because you have read Quran and arrived at the same conclusion. The fact that you think like Elst does not substantiate him, and it is unrelated to the questions we are adressing. AlexOriens

However, even in its most inclusive reading, Tilak’s definition excludes important groups which many Hindu Revivalists insist on including in the Hindu fold: Buddhists, Jains, Brahmo Samajists, etc. Savarkar, before developing his own alternative, rejects Tilak’s definition precisely because it is not sufficiently inclusive.

(K. Elst, "Who is Hindu ?", chapter 1). Elst is interested in what he falsely calls "Hindu Revivalism". So according to him, A. Samaj is one of them. "Falsely" because Hinduism has never died and is still represented by its true elite. "Who is Hindu" contains many elements of Elt's PhD thesis, BTW. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan He never meant by Revivalism that Hinduism died, hence needed to be revived. He means the downfall of hinduism because of so many agression over centuries. Hence he is not wrong here. As far as inclusiveness is concerned, it is debatable. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens Others quotations:

Though trying to discover a basis in Hindu tradition for casteless equality (as the Arya Samaj claims to have found in the Vedas) is a good thing, it should not keep us from understanding why Hinduism could accommodate the caste system so well.

(K. Elst, "Who is Hindu ?", chapter 1).

In most of these communities, the Arya Samaj with its anti-caste stance has played a major role. The Arya Samaj is also a factor in the much lower intensity of caste inequality in the Arya heartland, Panjab.

(K. Elst, "Who is Hindu ?", chapter 1). Lastly, another Elst's book I haven't read but having the following review:

Throughout the book, whether he is exposing the untruth of Romila Thapar’s contentions on the ideology of Arya Samaj

(From TM. Menon, http://www.asianetglobal.com:8080/asianet/2004/news/detailedstory.jsp?catId=10&newsId=2). AlexOriens A general remark: these quotations place Elst in a rather particular view on Hinduism: he is always paying attention on "reforming chools", like the Arya Samaj, Hindutva or other political movements, but he seems reluctant to deserve any importance to traditionnal (not reformist) Hindus which form the vast majority. In that respect, his stance on Hinduism is very "westernised" and politically oriented, should we say at the very least. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan your interpretation of reformist and traditional is quite problematic. RSS is not the reformist ones, but they came because of ongoing agression on hinduism. The same like sikhism/arya samaj. It doesn't mean that they were there for purely a sort of revival, although arya samaj etc had their own intellectual tradition(which form the backbone of reforms) to counter those agression. Vinay Khaitan

AlexOriens Even if we don't agree, I hope having pointed you to Guenon's work, which you will find of great value, if you like Hinduism like I do. You haven't brought to me anything new however: I've read almost all of Elst. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan I tell you one very important thing. All of the smritis, puruans, vedas are written in cryptic nature(and has been said within those books itself). It would be very very unfair to Hinduism if you rely on any of those writers. Knowledge of Hindu traditions are quite necessary to understand the contexts of those books. Purunas's story are written in such a cryptic way that most of the people would confuse.--Vinay Khaitan 15:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

AlexOriens Thank you for the debate, anyway. I hope it will serve to others interested in the subject. I am specially thinking to those Indians who have read Elst's books: Indians deserve much better than Elst's poisonous and suspect writings. AlexOriens

The word poisonous and suspect are too much about elst. IMO, Indians deserve the writings of elst for the sake of good understandings. It is definite that any polemic article/book would be severely criticised by some group.-Vinay Khaitan 15:58, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

AlexOriens After your change in the "article" section about Rene Guenon and "Vedanta westernized", and since I primarily wrote that passage, I changed it to make it unbalanced, simply by refering to the "discussion" section. I think it is better like that, readers will just read our discussion and decide by themselves. Writing, as you did, that Elst and Guenon agree on that subject is impossible to admit for anyone knowing Guenon's work. AlexOriens

Vinay Khaitan I am very happy to see the change you did. In fact, now it looks very NPOV. That's exactly I wanted to see that readers should themselve judge. Finally, I think the issue is resolved between us. --Vinay Khaitan

Also, I am not saying that A. Samaj is the only one influence in Elst. But the most important point is that it is one of them, and they belong to a stream described in "Vedanta westernised". Note also that R. Guenon's "Theosophism: history of a pseudo-religion" is also related to our discussion. AlexOriens

Citation

I see that the following passage has been causing much debate. As it stands it is certainly wholly inappropriate. We do not refer to the talk page in articles, and the idea that Guenon (who died before Elst was born) provides some explanation of his motives seems to be the opinion of one editor, and is therefore OR. Indeed the passage as it stands does not even explain how Guenon is relevant or helpful.

René Guénon has described the origin of some reformist movements in India in his book "Introduction Générale à l'Etude des Doctrines Hindoues" (english translation: "Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines", and notably in the chapter "Vedanta westernized"); he also established their heterodoxy w.r.t. orthodox Hinduism. The reader is referred to the "discussion" section of this Misplaced Pages article, in which a debate has been raised to decide if Elst's books and articles belong or not to the stream of reformist ideologies described in René Guénon's book on Hindu doctrines.

On the contrary, it does explain it as the appropriate chapter is mentionned and cited; reading both Elst and the "Vedanta westernized" makes the connection quite clear. I put backwards the deleted citation, and change it in order that it does not refer to the talk page. TwoHorned 21:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Info updated

Browsing the web, I see that K. Elst may be more closely related to the neocons that I expected in the first place: he wrote a postcript to a book of Daniel Pipes ("The Rushdie Affair: The Novel, the Ayatollah, and the West"). It should be quite interesting to investigate the real role of such political influences in the backing of some nationalist movements in India (as usual, this is always done using the mask of Hinduism, although orthodox Hinduism is completely foreign to such considerations of course). Also, Prof. R. Zydenbos has updated info on Elst's political connections (http://www.angelfire.com/in/zydenbos/z2elst.html, section "Some more reading matter about Dr. K. Elst"). TwoHorned 10:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)