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User:DylanMcKaneWiki and the Celtic Phoenix article

• DylanMcKaneWiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 109.79.4.116 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Celtic Phoenix (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Post-2008 Irish economic downturn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Post-2008 Irish banking crisis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

DylanMcKaneWiki joined Misplaced Pages about a month ago and immediately started moving articles around. There were a number of issues with cut-and-paste moves and non-standard titles. Things generally settled down. Then he started the Celtic TigerCeltic Phoenix article—if we assume good faith, it's a split, but it leans into the realm of a POV fork to prevent only the good side of the recovery. That article has been tagged for a prospective merge into the article on Ireland's economy for a few days.

For the past few days, he has shown a pattern of editing while logged out, primarily with the IP listed above. If you look at the edit times over the past 24–48 hours, it's almost a clean handoff every time one or the other starts editing.

Today, he declared that he was giving in and allowing the merge to go ahead. So, the logged-in Dylan proceeded to merge the article. The IP then unwound the merge, and Dylan logged back in to proclaim he'd changed his mind.

Frankly, that was a bridge too far: the number of articles and templates he's edited in the last few hours will be daunting to correct for all of his edits. While I'd like to assume good faith that he just keeps getting logged out, it's starting to look like there's some intent to disrupt the encyclopedia with his edits—almost to the point of intentionally logging out to avoid scrutiny. Maybe I'm reading too much in, but at the least, he needs some good guidance on how to work constructively with other editors. —C.Fred (talk) 19:48, 24 May 2015 (UTC), amended 15:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Guliolopez has tried to engage with him, offering tips and advice. I admit to being snarky with him, but have also latterly offered advice, pointed out some of the problems with his editing, etc. Dylan rarely engages (only interaction with his talk page has been to blank it), and when he does it's to talk about us leaving "his" article alone diff. The cut-and-paste page moves have been problematic, the ownership is an obvious issue, as is logging out to perform edits/avoid his earlier block. A more serious problem is the complete ignoring of WP:NPOV. Bastun 20:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

When I looked at his talk page before he deleted most of the content, I see a string of warnings for the past three weeks, asking and even pleading with him not to do moves which mess up the edit history of the page. It seems like this has happened on multiple occasions. Have you seen any improvement, C.Fred? Liz 21:13, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't so much say he improved through the first part of May as his editing just quieted down and there were fewer problems. He went away from the economics articles and focused on shopping centres. —C.Fred (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, there was no improvements just because he lowered his amount of disruption. I feel a long-term block is required as it is more and more evident from the several warnings he recieved that he has no intention to learn from mistakes and cooperate with others.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:03, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Note, this dispute is about the Celtic Phoenix article, not the Celtic Tiger article, which DylanMcKaneWiki does not appear to have edited, but which would be a good merge target. Paul B (talk) 10:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's (mainly) about the Celtic Phoenix article, but DylanMcKaneWiki has edited Celtic Tiger, too, albeit when logged out - see this diff from 15th May is an insertion that adds in a 'See main article: Celtic Phoenix' template, for example, and there are more. The "109.7*.*.*" addresses that edited Celtic Tiger are the ones also disruptively editing Celtic Phoenix. WP:DUCK. Bastun 19:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

And checking what links to Celtic Phoenix, I've found that the IP and/or editor concerned has inserted a chunk of text (that completely ignores WP:NPOV, WP:RECENT and WP:CRYSTAL) into many articles, which includes a "See main article Celtic Phoenix" template, rather than directing readers to Economy of the Republic of Ireland. The chunk had been pasted into Economic history of the Republic of Ireland, History of the Republic of Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Post-2008 Irish economic downturn. This is a definite PoV fork... Bastun 17:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, I added the above note because this section was originally entitled by C.Fred "User:DylanMcKaneWiki and the Celtic Tiger article" with a link to Celtic Tiger below, and the inaccurate statement that "he started the Celtic Tiger article". Obviously just an accidental slip up on C.Fred's part, but there was no reference to Celtic Phoenix at all in the thread. I changed the title and link so the comment now seems semi-irrelevant. Paul B (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Bastun 12:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, my bad. I had been trying to see what existed on ga.wikipedia; there is an article on the Tiger but not the Phoenix, so I crossed them up in my brain. Sorry about that. Paul B, feel free to whack me with a trout (which happens to be one of the main aquaculture products of Ireland, but I digress). —C.Fred (talk) 15:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Could an admin also semi-protect Post-2008 Irish economic downturn, please? It's currently got one whole page of edits by this user (both logged in and not), some small changes, some serious, many removing significant content, and what appears to be efforts to remove/alter admin-only templates. Most edits done with no edit summary. This is extremely disruptive editing. Bastun 12:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

And now we have a page move - 2008–13 Irish economic downturn, because in Dylan's PoV, the downturn ended then. He has been repeatedly asked and warned not to do page moves like this, especially moves that may be controversial (and instead to use the requested moves procedure), and he simply can't be unaware that this wouldn't be uncontroversial, especially given it's talk page. Can an admin please do something about this? Bastun 17:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I've unwound the move. @Bastun: Had he been warned about the moving process and using WP:RM before? I know he's gotten prior warnings related to page moves, but I thought those were cut-and-paste moves. —C.Fred (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope, he did another cut-and-paste move today: Post-2008 Irish banking crisis. —C.Fred (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, he has certainly been warned about them before, and I've requested him to use WP:RM. See also his talk page on 1st May and your own prior warning to him. I'm a little too busy right now to hunt down diffs for the WP:RM warnings/requests, though. Bastun 18:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Again - can an admin please add semi-protection to Post-2008 Irish economic downturn - Dylan (logged out) is repeatedly removing Financial crisis from the article, not using edit summaries, not genuinely engaging on talk page, etc. Bastun 21:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Have added Post-2008 Irish banking crisis to the list above. Similar logged out edits, again removing Financial crisis from the article, without consensus and in breach of NPOV. (A parliamentary committee was told just yesterday that over 110,000 Irish mortgages are in arrears... that should be of concern to the banks...) Can semi-protection be added to this one, too? Bastun 22:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Update Semi-protection has now been added to the various Irish economic articles where disruptive editing by the IP listed above was taking place. Bastun 09:43, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Note - re-added from Archive 887. Can we get an admin decision or recommendation on this? The user in question has stayed away from the articles in question over the last few days since SPP was added, but is still editing disruptively elsewhere - e.g., a series of seemingly random page moves, redirects and merges, done without discussion. The Quinnsworth merge was repeated again after another editor had already reverted. Bastun 14:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Update Dylan took a break for a few days but was back today, 4 June. Dylan made this edit (on other pages, too). Apparently, the "BANKING CRISIS ENDED" in 2013. Which means the government was very silly announcing all this just yesterday. Bastun 13:35, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

And again.... Bastun 17:42, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm now proceeding with the Merge of Celtic Phoenix to Economy of the Republic of Ireland as per the consensus on the talk page of the former. Bastun 15:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• Admin here. Bastun, you should not have made the close to merge on Talk:Celtic_Phoenix, even though the consensus was clear. I'll add a note endorsing it, but sheesh, if you're going to ask editors to play by the rules you should do it yourself as well. Also, I do not see how this edit is so terribly disruptive, but hey, I'm in English so I know nothing about money, having only seen big quantities of it at my drug dealer's. Having said all that, it is clear that DylanMcKaneWiki's knowledge of how Misplaced Pages works is severely hampered, to the point of serious disruption. POV forking etc. is not a good thing, and it is blockable: DylanMcKaneWiki, if you keep this up you will be blocked. Now, I think we can close this, with the following point of order: any repetitions of severely disruptive behavior will be met with a block; editors can place a note here on ANI and refer to this discussion. Drmies (talk) 22:33, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm unclear as to why I shouldn't have closed the merge discussion? Consensus was clear, I thought, and I'd given plenty of notice. Removal of "Category:2015 in the Republic of Ireland" was disruptive in my view (and that of at least one other editor) as it was pointy, verging on WP:OR and breaching WP:NPOV. Dylan maintains that everything in the garden is rosy when it comes to Ireland's economy and banking - he has asserted that the economic crisis and banking crisis ended in 2013, so therefore was removing references to 2014 and 2015. Thanks for your help. Bastun 22:55, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Simple: you started the discussion, you were intimately involved with its outcome. Of course you shouldn't have closed that. I see your point, now, with that category edit--make sure that, if it happens again, you explain--briefly and neutrally. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 23:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to note, DylanMcKaneWiki has since been blocked for 1 week by admin C.Fred for disruptive editing - page move of Post-2008 Irish economic downturn to 2008–13 Irish economic downturn (as discussed above), despite previous appeals to use WP:RM for controversial moves. Bastun 08:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Cjhanley

User user:Cjhanley is a former AP reporter whose work earned him a Pulitzer. Unfortunately, it was found to have some holes in it, and he has taken this real world fight to Misplaced Pages. The author who initially embarrassed the AP team wrote a competing book on the subject and Hanley went so far as to contact the publisher and pressured them not to release it.

Now, one of the three AP writers, Charles Hanley, is apparently trying to suppress publication of a new book -- "No Gun Ri: A Military History of the Korean War Incident" -- that takes another view of what happened at No Gun Ri. The book, written by U.S. Army Maj. Robert Bateman, is highly critical of the AP story, calling into question the reporters' sources and research. But Bateman's book isn't the first time the AP story has been criticized.

He has been arguing for nearly 2 years that all of this material should be removed and has begun a large canvassing effort to accomplish this . Interestingly enough, he has pinged nearly every editor I have had even an interaction with on this project. His COI is obvious, but no actions were taken when it was brought to the community’s attention [https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard&oldid=56826848 4#No_Gun_Ri_and_the_AP.27s_Charles_Hanley].

Now he’s attempting to dig for information about me off wiki as well .

His non stop insults about me, and a recent allegation that I am some kind of White Supremacist have put me over the edge though.

Hanley needs to be banned from this article immediately. WeldNeck (talk) 17:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

A topic ban would seem appropriate in this case. Maybe we could have a vote on it to see if there is consensus to topic ban him. SilverSurfingSerpent (talk) 17:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse a topic ban, but we should ensure that Cjhanley is given the standard advice to biography subjects on how to correct errors of fact (rather than interpretations of fact with which you disagree) without violating policy or damaging your reputation. Guy (Help!) 17:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban as well, given this user's problematic behavior. SilverSurfingSerpent (talk) 17:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Looking at this diff, it seems like it's another editor, Oilyguy, who is calling you a white Nationalist. Liz 18:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:Liz, @User:JoeSperrazza, Did you see the part of Cjhanley's post which reads "He has great interest in the subject of guns, and in some imagined threat to the white race called Cultural Marxism". (This was cited in Weldneck's original complaint.)--Wikimedes (talk) 23:34, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

There are a lot of people on Misplaced Pages who are kind of obsessed with the subject of cultural Marxism. I don't see him saying the editor was a "White Supremacist". And you are completely ignoring that Oilyguy did say white Nationalist. Liz 01:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

You're right, "some imagined threat to the white race" is not the same as "White Supremacist", but it does seem to be an accusation of racism. (I had not meant to say anything about Oilyguy's comments. Cultural Marxism is completely new to me.)--Wikimedes (talk) 01:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. @JzG, this is not a "biography subject," this is a Pulitzer winning career journalist and book author, a subject expert. Carrite (talk) 19:38, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@Carrite: "subject experts" aren't exempted from the fourth pillar. And the article will be just fine without him, just like any other article subject. ― Padenton|✉   19:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Really? And that means User:Brian Josephson, who has a Nobel prize, is free to promote woo to his heart's content, does it? The problem is clearly and credibly identified. Respecting someone's achievements does not give them a free pass on Misplaced Pages. Guy (Help!) 15:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse (edit conflict)Multiple attempts at inappropriate WP:CANVASSING, a guideline which is generally expected to be common sense, especially for a professional journalist. Specifically, the inappropriate canvassing violations here are Campaigning (at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Military history diff, also directly copying and pasting another editors comments including their signatures without any statement that it was copied and not posted by that user), and spamming (and possibly votestacking, here:diff). I see numerous assume good faith and civility failures in these 2 diffs as well, and numerous personal attacks. I find it interesting, given the fact that he has almost no editing history for the past year, that he chooses memorial day to wage this new assault on the article. ― Padenton|✉   19:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I have nominated User:Cjhanley/Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre, a page linked from User:Cjhanley for WP:MFD as it violates WP:POLEMIC. That discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Cjhanley/Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre. ― Padenton|✉   19:59, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I can only assume anyone supporting this idea of banning me from the No Gun Ri Massacre article is not familiar with what has been going on at that article for the past two years, and is unaware that my colleagues and I, along with academic acquaintances, have by far the greatest wealth of knowledge and documentation relating to the subject in the English language. I urge any interested parties simply to review the section "Reader Beware" that was posted at Talk:No Gun Ri Massacre to get some sense of the damage that has been done by WeldNeck, at ]. I use the past tense because WeldNeck unilaterally deleted my Talk posting within minutes. Isn't that the kind of offense that warrants a topic ban? In fact, his behavior should have been dealt with by late 2013 by responsible admins. Finally, to suggest that "the article will be just fine without him (Cjhanley), just like any other article subject" is to underline the problem that a huge number of serious people in the world have with Misplaced Pages, the attitude that "we don't need subject-matter experts; any Tom, Dick or Harry can write about anything." Driving experts away from WP will only deepen its problems. Thanks. Charles J. Hanley 22:46, 25 May 2015 (UTC) Cjhanley (talk)

• This edit, seems inappropriate, per WP:TPO. The materiel meets none of the listed criteria that would make it eligible for User:WeldNeck to remove them. The comments very specifically discuss the article and ways that User:Cjhanley feels it should be improved. The revert should be reversed, ideally by User:WeldNeck. JoeSperrazza (talk) 02:07, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban.

1. From the diffs presented, the complaints are either unfounded (e.g., per Liz) or don't show edits that are either disruptive or unsourced. He may need some guidance on Wiki policies and procedures, and at most perhaps a mentor for traversing Misplaced Pages's sometimes arcane rules.
2. In addition, I also agree with User:Carrite and offer the following rationale. Like it or not, there is a long precedence in WP in allowing competence to trump certain policies, as documented in numerous noticeboard and arbitration cases. Surely, per WP:IAR, if nothing else, it is for the good of WP for the community to engage subject matter experts and help them. We don't want to end up in a situation such as this. I don't mean to say we're there, but let's turn the ship and avoid it. JoeSperrazza (talk) 02:45, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

@JoeSperrazza: - you dont see a COI with Hanley and his attempt to exclude a source that embarrassed him professionally? WeldNeck (talk) 13:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support the topic ban and I find his choice of days to begin this fight absolutely disgusting. WeldNeck (talk) 13:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

!vote by nom above (stricken). Normally nominator doesn't !vote too. As one of the two parties, seems inappropriate to !vote too. Widefox; talk 01:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support a ban on editing the article, but not the talk page. Someone with an obvious and significant conflict of interest should not be editing the article. However, talk page suggestions for changes to the article should be allowed and should be evaluated by uninvolved editors. Deli nk (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Both users User:Cjhanley and User:WeldNeck have behaved inappropriately, in my opinion. COI is a real issue, plus the level of personal attacks by both sides. I present:

WeldNeck attacks Cjhanley's credibility:

WeldNeck deletes an entire section by Cjhanley:

Cjhanley attacks WeldNeck multiple times:

While I initially sympathized with each user for different reasons, I think the conduct is unacceptable. We need uninvolved editors working to ensure quality on this sensitive article. Examining the talk archives, it is clear that this is yet another resurgence of the same dispute from years back, and nothing has changed.

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that removing his talk page entry may not have been in the best spirit of things, but I am sick to death of the constant attacks from Hanley on me which has now moved onto Hanley trolling outside Misplaced Pages to dig up information on me. The entire section I deleted has been replicated several times on Hanley's personal talk page as well as the article's talk page. Its the textbook definition of tendentious. I have never edit warred on that article and every significant edit I have made included a explanation on the talk page. WeldNeck (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Further evidence (from the previous debate in 2014):

Personal attacks:

Another implicit attack on Cjhanley:

My (2015) comment that reignited the whole thing in the first place:

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Although neither editor is blameless in this content dispute, I think that Cjhanley's apparent belief that he is the only expert on the subject runs counter to the collaborative nature of this project. Miniapolis 00:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Hold Our Horses (is that an option?) See submission on the same article below. I think we're going to try to work this out in talk. Both users at least pay lip service to thinking that it's a good idea. So we're going to take this an edit at a time and see if things will remain civil long enough to get something done. If anyone wishes to volunteer, I would love to have a fourth or fifth commenter that I can ping if needed to the talk to back me up (or tell me I'm stupid...either one works) if this gets (every bit as) nasty (as it has been for two years). So, I apologize for abusing the parenthetical. I suppose you can come over to my talk if you would like to volunteer. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 05:44, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Hanley's COI, and canvassing still needs to be deal with. WeldNeck (talk) 15:40, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

WeldNeck, do you have a WP:COI as well? WP:BOOMERANG (disclaimer: I was canvassed here). nom's vote stricken above. Widefox; talk 01:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

A large part of this issue is that Weld seems to have rarely sought and (AFAIK) never gotten consensus on his edits. Hanley doesn't seem to understand policy well enough to know that a lack of consensus defaults to no change to the article. So intentionally or unintentionally, Weld has exploited Hanley's lack of understanding to do basically whatever he wants. I have addressed a lack of consensus in no uncertain terms on the talk. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 07:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Not that I am aware of .... just a love of history and a strong sense of justice. WeldNeck (talk) 01:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

WeldNeck Let me put it another way...you've been or are employed by the US military. Correct? The topic is a historical US military event. Widefox; talk 07:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

There are 21.8 million veterans of the U.S. armed forces as of 2014, are you saying every one has a COI and cannot edit? WeldNeck (talk) 16:53, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Widefox: Are you serious? You think everyone who has ever been employed by the US military has a COI on any military-related article? Do you realize they're generally the only ones who build these articles? Well, I guess it's convenient to declare that anyone who disagrees with you must have a COI, but I don't think you'll have much luck with that one. ― Padenton|✉   17:04, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It would be good to have other experienced editors as "backup" if things deteriorate. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:33, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Padenton: 1. logical problem with that argument: big employer ≠ COI, 2. strawman argument: nobody said all military history (and nobody said COI can't edit, or no human can't edit a biography either). Back to the point, see WeldNeck's edit history for pro US military POV-pushing (including a BLP violation) for reporters exposing US military errors. This is the second one I've seen. COI may be a cause, but we don't know as there's (so far) no simple COI statement. Are you saying nobody in the US military has a COI? Valid to ask, right? If this was another country's, say the Chinese military or Russian, would that be different? Widefox; talk 23:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Whether Weld has been employed by the military is not really relevant to the ANI. Saying someone who was in the military has a COI isn't the same as saying someone who worked for say Apple has a COI. "If this was another country's, say the Chinese military or Russian, would that be different?" Not at all. I might be suspicious of someone if they were North Korea military, but that would depend on the discussion at hand. ― Padenton|✉   23:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Full disclosure, I am also military. If that's a COI then so be it. But perhaps it's important to note that most of the things I've learned about the military, I did not learn because I was in the military; I learned them because I was interested in military history. Not everyone drinks the Kool-Aid. Some people understand that war is bad and bad things happen in war. To anyone who thinks the US military is blameless: Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would like a word with you please. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 08:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Do us all a favor and climb down from the soapbox. None of these events are relevant to the article at hand. Whether US military is to blame for Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki, has no impact on whether they are to blame for this No Gun Ri incident, and whether the US military is to blame for the No Gun Ri incident has no impact on whether either or both of these editors should be sanctioned for their behavior. ― Padenton|✉   23:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support 3 month topic ban or moderation by Timothyjoshephwood and GeneralizationsAreBad. Cjhanley’s repeated ad hominims against Weldneck on the No Gun Ri article’s talk page need to stop. (Weldneck also occasionally takes a swipe at Cjhanley, but much less often.) In this post, , 2 days into this ANI thread, Cjhanley goes so far as to title a section on the article talk page “A brief WeldNeck primer (please do read):”. Additionally, both the article and Cjhanley would benefit from some time away from Cjhanley’s WP:ownership of the article. On the other hand, I’ve found that it is possible to work with Cjhanley, it would be a shame to lose a subject matter expert, and I think Cjhanley is still capable of making positive contributions to the article. So while IMHO Cjhanley has well earned a topic ban, if this is the result I hope that it will be of limited duration. On the other hand, Timothyjoshephwood appears to be taking the talk page firmly in hand, and his and GeneralizationsAreBad’s efforts may accomplish the same things.--Wikimedes (talk) 03:30, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

As stated above, I do not think a block is an appropriate solution. Part of the reason there is a situation is that Weld has consistently made substantial edits when no consensus exits, and has maintained those edits after much argument making it abundantly clear that no consensus exists. He has, in good or bad faith, abused Hanley's lack of understanding of WP:CON. Weld continued to make edits with no consensus after I began trying to moderate, and after being explicitly asked to postpone editing until we can talk things through. It took "you're wrong and at this point I'm going to revert any and all of your edits until to pass them through the talk page" to get him to stop. Hanely has clearly violated WP:CIVIL, but has done so out of frustration with Weld's violation of WP:CON. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 07:30, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

No consensus can exist with Mr Hanley as long as you dont hold his POV. I haven't had issues with anyone else on the article and have worked fairly well with them. One user with both a personal and professional interest in the article refuses to consider any material that does not conform with the reporting he has done on it. WeldNeck (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that per WP:NOCON, when no consensus can be reached in proposals to add to or change the article, the default is to not add or change. You have ignored this. If no consensus can be reached with Hanley, the correct action is to draw uninvolved editors to the page to evaluate the arguments, which is what we are doing now. Rather than doing this you have simply added your edits and repeatedly reverted any attempt to remove or change them. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 05:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose two opposing COI POV-pushers. Standard COI editing applies. Widefox; talk 07:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Demonstrate I have a COI ... we know Hanley does and he has been very public about trying to suppress the work of competing academics. I have also striken your vote because you were (admittedly so) canvassed here. WeldNeck (talk) 16:53, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

WeldNeck, don't strike my !vote, I'm not involved or been asked to come to this page by anyone. WP:VOTESTACK doesn't say to strike. I'm not involved in the content dispute, and have not been canvassed to this page (but possibly to the talk of the article). My full disclosure doesn't mean you (as an involved party) get to disregard an opposing position, just like you can't nominate an action and vote. Widefox; talk 23:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. There's a bit too much drama going on here, but it can be resolved through standard channels, such as NPOVN and consensus on the talk page. Removing just one of the editors would be a bad idea, as it will give the other one free rein. Not to mention that we're discussing topic banning a subject matter expert, as Carrite pointed out. The ideal solution would be for neutral editors to get involved. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban. I agree with NinjaRobotPirate, that there is so much drama here that it has muddied the waters. The only thing that is clearly apparent to me is that Talk:No Gun Ri Massacre has been a battleground between two editors with a handful of other editors trying to moderate the dispute or move past it. This dispute was brought to COIN in August 2013 without any resolution or much of a discussion so I encourage a return to WP:COIN if that is the central issue or a visit to dispute resolution if the dispute is solely over content. Liz 13:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I went to DRN, but my report was closed very quickly. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The two editors are trying to score points against one another; they've got to get beyond this, if any substantive changes to the article and talk page environment are to be made. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Close. We have at least four third party editors on the talk and we are evaluating sources and proposed edits one-by-one. If we reach a consensus and one or another editor starts a war because they don't like the consensus, then we can return here. By policy we could ban both of them, or we could moderate the issue and reach a strong consensus that will protect the article in the future. I recommend we do the latter. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 14:51, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Timothyjosephwood and support Close. JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:09, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Can you point out some of these editors or link to a talk page? I see many that were canvassed to the incident by Cjhanley. Wikimedes and GeneralizationsAreBad were both canvassed here: User_talk:Cjhanley#WeldNeck_seeks_to_ban_me. ― Padenton|✉   23:25, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I was not actually canvassed here, by the way... GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Padenton, I was not aware Wikimedes was canvassed. I honestly have no idea where Irondome came from. GAB and I are doing most of the moderation at any rate. Topic bans seem silly at this point. We've already instituted an informal freeze on the article, that no edits should be made without establishing consensus, and that the person proposing the edit should not be the person doing the editing. See Edit 5 on the talk page where GAB proposed and I actually made the edit. There is no reason to continue this discussion so long as editors are on the page, enforcing and elucidating community standards. If other's would like to join in that's fine, but I think GAB and myself are sufficient at this point to keep things civil and productive. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 23:53, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Hi I work on COI issues a lot here in WP. In my view. Hanley has a COI here - he has relationships external to WP that affect his editing here - namely his Pulitzer, the attacks on it, and his desire to defend his work. He should not be directly editing the article about that subject nor about himself. So - topic ban is too strong. Instead"
  • CJ Hanley should be instructed to not directly edit the article - only if he violates that, he should be topic banned. Also,
  • CJ Hanley should be strongly warned not to violate WP:OUTING (l this dif is unacceptable behavior)
  • CJ Hanley should bewarned against WP:CANVASSING and
  • CJ Hanley should be urged to read WP:DR and to use those processes, calmly, when he cannot persuade other editors.

I do have questions for Weldneck - it sometimes happens that the people on both sides of a content dispute have conflicts of interest. Your military service was brought up. I agree that this is far too broad a brush. More specifically, would you please answer:

1. do you have any relationship with the 7th Calvary?
2. were you at all involved in the events around the Gun Ri Massacre itself, or do you have a relationship with anyone who was?
3. are you in any way involved in the RW with the controversy over CJ Hanley's reporting?

Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 18:06, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

To answer your questions: No to all three. WeldNeck (talk) 13:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that Weldneck. Jytdog (talk) 17:20, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

It seems that there's a thin line here between a COI and a WP:EXPERT. I don't think Hanley understood that these things were prohibited by community standards. Just as I don't think WeldNeck saw anything wrong with editing for WP:TRUTH where he thought it was lacking. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 23:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I wasnt editing for truth, I was editing to inlcude all significant POV's which were lacking from the article. WeldNeck (talk) 13:51, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Case in point. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban for Cjhanley. BMK (talk) 21:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban for Cjhanley. An interaction ban would be a good idea, too, because of this kind of digging for personal information to gain leverage. Binksternet (talk) 23:27, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

:Strongly support interaction ban. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC) Changed my mind. I'm confident that ANI won't be necessary anymore to resolve this. To be sure, if things take a downturn, we might have to return to this venue. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:57, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose any ban. Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione querentes ? Pldx1 (talk) 00:09, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support- cjhanley's attempts to dig dirt on users and canvass for his POV-pushing is uncollaborative and just outright low-down. Author or not, he needs to be topic banned and perhaps briefly blocked.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Again move to close. We are going through a process. A ban on either user will at best delay that process or at worst delegitimize it, as one user will not be able to weigh in on proposed edits. I would remind those here that WP sanctions are supposed to be preventative, not punitive. There is no damage control to be done here. At this point neither editor is going to be allowed to unilaterally change the article. Military History has brought three users to this page and we will take care of our own dirty laundry.

Both users lack an understanding of WP standards and we will elucidate them.

Both users are biased. One needs to be taught the difference between hard hitting journalism and an encyclopedia. The other needs to be taught the difference between what is mainstream and what is controversy.

Both users seem to completely lack historical context. This event is well upon the heels of the US campaign to erase Japanese cities until they surrender. It is not unimaginable that a few hundred civilians would be killed. At the same time, this event is well upon the heels of the US campaign to flatten Japanese cities until they surrender. It is hardly a Holocaust level event.

Please let Military History take care of its own and leave sanctions for the point at which they can be expected to be preventative. That point is not now.Timothyjosephwood (talk) 04:56, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Neither the MilHist Project nor any other WikiProject owns their subject area. A problem has been brought here, and is being dealt with here. MilHist will just have to deal with whatever the outcome of that is, since this is not a content dispute, it's a behavioral matter. BMK (talk) 14:03, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

MilHist doesn't own anything, but this article falls within the scope of our subject matter, and we have responded with appropriate action to protect the article. There is no consensus here. There is no preventative action to be taken. We have handled it. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• Since this is a behavior dispute, I think the following should be added. Since being warned, CJHanley's personal attacks continue unabated: , , , . If he cant watch his behavior now, with all these eyes on him, what are the prospects once things have moved on? WeldNeck (talk) 16:30, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Since the community has concentrated focus on edits, rather than users, Hanley has been quite productive and has been receptive to criticism of his proposed edits. Meanwhile WeldNeck has proposed a single edit, which he claimed he would provide supporting sources for that evening, three evenings ago. WeldNeck is using this ANI as a weapon to punish a user he disagrees with. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Cjhanley response

CJHanley here: I am deeply dismayed by this discussion. Anyone who actually studies what has gone on at No Gun Ri Massacre since August 2013 cannot possibly conclude anything other than that the article was seized by an uninformed user who was angered by its straightforward account of the massacre and who took a wrecking ball to it in order to push a pro-U.S. military POV, to whitewash a massacre. He deleted reams of material without discussion, reverted efforts to restore key elements, without discussion (let alone consensus), rebuffed attempts at reasoning and compromise, and, indeed, even fabricated material at times (when explicitly shown on Talk, with the source text, that these things were false, he refused to delete them). His POV is fed by material coming directly from 7th Cavalry activists, the regiment responsible for the massacre.

Help was sought at ANI and elsewhere, and the WP community failed utterly. “I’m in over my head,” one admin said. Now users here are actually listening to WeldNeck as he tries to eliminate me from the article? Can this be true? Three years after those of us, journalists and academics, deeply knowledgeable on No Gun Ri took a truly chaotic, mindless article and turned it into a solid account of an important historical event?

Ultimately sickened by WeldNeck’s behavior, and WP’s failure, I swore off the article and WP a year ago, as so many have done. I’ve come back because finally a real, competent effort is being made to restore some sense and more truthfulness to the article. My colleagues, academic acquaintances and I have the source material and the ready background knowledge. We want to help those who’ve taken an interest, shown real capability and made progress. WeldNeck, now facing more scrutiny, is lying low – for the moment. That effort should be given a chance. Thank you. Charles J. Hanley 12:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjhanley (talk • contribs)

WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS seems relevant here. Cjhanley is personally much too close to this story to edit our article on it in a neutral and unbiased manner. (Perhaps WeldNeck is too, but I've yet to see anything except accusations, no evidence.} I continue to support a topic ban for Cjhanley. 12:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)BMK (talk)

This statement also seems to contradict the assertion that the problem is being adequately "handled" internally by the MilHist Project. War is too important to be left to the aficionados.BMK (talk) 12:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

BMK, we are currently in the process of thrashing out consensus through proposals and counterproposals for edits. I agree with your concerns, and I think we should keep ANI on standby in case the situation worsens further. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 22:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Cjhanley: You should read your comment again: "I am deeply dismayed...", "Anyone who actually studies ... cannot possibly conclude anything other...", "...whitewash a massacre", "sickened", etc. You are well past the point of being an objective reporter of facts, and have become deeply entrenched in being a true believer. You admit of no possibility whatsoever of anything you have reported being wrong. You are, in fact, an advocate for one set of "facts", period.For all these reasons, you have a serious conflict of interest with our article and it is not appropriate that you edit it at all. You can point other editors to sources of information on the talk page, even things you've written that have been published elsewhere (in reliable sources, of course), but you should not edit the article directly, because you are clearly incapable of being neutral about it. Yes, you have expertise, of a sort, due to your reportage, but your attitude towards that story is such that you are not suited to edit our article.As for WeldNeck, I've seen a lot of accusations here, but there's been nothing about him as damning as your own statement is about yourself. What I've mostly seen is that your "side" thinks his "side" is wrong. That may be true, but he has not demonstrated the kind of serious conflict of interest that you have. Please stop editing the article. BMK (talk) 19:10, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

@Cjhanley: per the above. BMK (talk) 19:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• This is a dispute between two points of views. Should the Armed Forces use their resources to study and learn from their past or use their resources to whitewhash the former top ranking Officials (and provide larger opportunities for the actual ones to create yet another mess) ? In this controversy, it appears that Hanley stands strongly on the "Army should learn" side, while WeldNeck stands strongly on the "I attended graduate school with this guy" side. Perhaps, both of them are standing too strongly on their opinion. Remember that Misplaced Pages is not the real world ! Despite the cruel context of the No Gun Ri Massacre, this is only yet another Misplaced Pages article, among so many other ones, about handball, movies awards, diacritics and even "The Dakota" himself. Nevertheless, trying to use the letter-soup drama board to silent the other point of view seems to be over the top. WeldNeck shouldn't be the Gracchos of the Juvenal quotation. Pldx1 (talk) 12:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC) Pldx1 (talk) 13:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Whoa, BMK. If Pulitzer-winning journalists with 40 years’ experience in digging up, verifying and publishing facts, from wars to baseball games, are people who write with a Point of View and are not to be trusted, then Misplaced Pages’s in big trouble, because a hell of a lot of those citations at the bottom of articles show the information comes from journalists with even less experience and less recognition for their professionalism. Then there are the academics who work on subjects … too closely?

In fact, it was AP journalists who first amassed the facts of No Gun Ri, on which others built. If those facts cannot be trusted, you’ve got a pretty weak house of cards and, if you take them away, a pretty paltry WP article. Might as well just copy and paste the Pentagon’s report. That’s what they would do in North Korea.

You “haven’t seen any evidence” against WeldNeck? Haven’t you looked at the Talk pages and the article history, from August 2013 to March 2014? The article history is a veritable waterfall of reverts, re-reverts and re-re-reverts by this one guy, with nary a word of discussion, as he furiously rid the article of anything that might put the U.S. military in a bad light. If anyone wants a clear explainer, try this from late 2013 User:Cjhanley/Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre, and this from early 2014 . That second one (see the Reader Beware section) was posted at Talk:No Gun Ri Massacre only recently, and immediately deleted by WeldNeck. That single act should be enough "evidence" to get anyone banned. There’s enough in those two “explainers” to get anyone multiple life sentences, especially for a guy who has clashed with, by my count, 28 other contributors in the same nasty way at various articles. One slammed him for “POV pushing at every article you edit.” Have a look.

Meantime, a process is under way at No Gun Ri Massacre. Sensible, energetic people are on board. Let’s let them work, with help from me and other knowledgeable folks as needed. Thanks. Charles J. Hanley 20:26, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're comparing apples and oranges, and you're clearly not understanding what the role of an encyclopedia is versus a reporter or publisher of investigative journalism. We don't go by the criteria the Pulitzer Prize committee follows, and they don't go by our rules and policies. We don't break news, we don't take sides, we don't advocate, we summarize what other people have written in a neutral manner (as much as is humanly possible). As I said to an editor the other day, if Einstein came back to life and had finally figured out the Grand Unified Theory of Everything, we wouldn't let him break the news here, and we wouldn't even report it until it had appeared in the appropriate peer-reviewed journal, because that's our role.By our criteria, and without consideration of anyone else's, you're clearly an advocate for the story you tell (and I'm using "story" in a neutral manner, without knowing, or caring in the context of this discussion, whether it's "true" or not), and that gives you a strong conflict of interest, which means that it is highly inappropriate for you to edit our article. Other editors are free to cite your reportage, and it can be offset, if necessary, by what other reliable sources have written. Please make an effort to understand how our role differs from the one you're used to playing, and why that disqualifies you from editing the article. Publish any additional information you have in a reliable source, and editors can use it, but you should not be editing that artice. BMK (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, having read User:Cjhanley/Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre and your "READER BEWARE" comment (which you neglected to label as such in the diff above) makes me even more convinced that you do not understand that editing here is almost completely the opposite from being an investigative journalist. Perhaps you could fulfill the role of Misplaced Pages editor on other subjects that you're not so clearly invested in, but you shouldn't get near this subject with a ten-foot pole. Inow strongly think that a topic ban is essential. BMK (talk) 21:16, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Wow, if you actually read those "explainers" and still do not understand what the behavior problem has been at that article, of endless reverts without discussion, by a well-known bullyboy around WP, I don't know how better to open your eyes, BMK. Be aware of one thing: The great bulk of citations at that article came from me and knowledgeable colleagues, from peer-reviewed journals, books by reputable publishers, responsible journalism by others, television documentaries and other solid sources. You may be under the misapprehension that the article is based on Associated Press reporting, period. Far, far from it. Instead, as the people who've followed the story for 17 years, we know all the sources, reliable and unreliable. Now, if I'm not supposed to come within 10 feet of the article, shall I remove everything we contributed to make it, as of 2013, a truthful, comprehensive and readable article? Charles J. Hanley 22:03, 3 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjhanley (talk • contribs)

WP:STOPDIGGINGTimothyjosephwood (talk) 22:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't have said it any better. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Also note the strong element of WP:OWNership. BMK (talk) 00:04, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Suppose, hypothetically, that Einstein comes back to life and tries to help writing the Special_relativity article. The odds are that he becomes quickly topic-banned due to an obvious conflict of interest: who is that guy that pretends having some expertise in the field that he opened? Aren't there so many other topics to edit: butterflies? handball? The process is well known and should have been recognized by any letter-soup specialist. Bob wants to push a fringe theory. He detects the person that resists the most, say Alice. Then Bob keeps harrassing Alice and waits for an overreaction. At that precise moment, Bob starts crying and weeping out of loud, complaining about Alice. And then comes the letter-soup expert. The guy is overbooked and has no time for a further inquiry. He even has a feeling of ownership over "our article" (great lapsus). Guess what could be the end of the story? But let us go back to the current topic. As it was stated by User:Beyond_My_Ken, any specialist is replaceable, even a specialist in letter soup. In this "story", only the people that were shot to death at No Gun Ri are not replaceable. Pldx1 (talk) 18:48, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Quite poetic, really. I think your analogy may be valid. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:30, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

And complete crap, actually. Specialists and experts are always welcome, as long as they follow the rules. Einstein can edit the Special relativity article to his heart's content, as long as he cites from reliable sources to do so -- even his own previously published peer-reviewed work. But if he has a sudden new revelation, that's WP:OR and he can't include it in the article, he has to get it published elsewhere first. And if he starts edit-warring against and displaying WP:BATTLEFIELD behavior towards other recently-deceased-but-returned-to-life-to-edit-Misplaced Pages physicists who oppose his views, he's going to receive warnings, and possible blocks or topic bans if he doesn't back off and edit within the bounds, Einstein or no Einstein. His expertise doesn't give him a free pass to do whatever the hell he pleases, and neither does Cjhanley's. BMK (talk) 21:57, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I was agreeing with Pldx1, and I agree with you as well. (My "poetic" comment referred to his last sentence.) Conduct on the NGR talk page has been very bad in the past, but we're trying to hit restart. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 22:18, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

It's interesting to note that online accounts I've read concerning CJ Hanley's real world dispute with Robert Batemen, author of No Gun Ri: A Military History of the Korean War Incident, show the same personality faults which have been observed here, and which have led myself and others to support a topic ban for Hanley. I'm hardly in a position to adjudicate between the two views of the incident, but that's never been the issue in this thread -- despite Cjhanley's attempts to make it the issue -- which is all about the editor's inability to fit into the Misplaced Pages process. And that is also why MilHist can't "handle" this, because it's not the content issue which is under scrutiny here, it's the behavioral issue. BMK (talk) 11:13, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, in the past, WeldNeck has certainly cited Hanley's dispute with Bateman as evidence of COI. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

He's has also cited COI as a way to push through his preferred edits. It is, of course, a non sequitur to argue that "you have a COI so my WP:FRINGE theory should be included". I really find the whole ANI report suspect, in that it just so happens that the need to report two years worth of saved up grievances just so happened to arise at exactly the same time that uninvolved editors were attracted to the article, and started taking things seriously. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 15:43, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, if there is evidence that WeldNeck has a COI and is incapable of editing the article in a neutral manner, or that he is editing in any way against Misplaced Pages's policies, the evidence should be presented in an ANI thread and that can be dealt with separately. As far as the COI of Cjhanley, the evidence is very clear, and right here in this thread. The one obviously doesn't have much to do with the other: Hanley's problem does not necessarily imply that WeldNEck has a problem, nor does it mean that he's a white knight with no agenda. These are two distinct issues. I believe that one has been settled and so I call on an admin to close this thread and impose a topic ban on Cjhanley per the overwhleming evidence here. Anyone is free to open a thread on WeldNeck. BMK (talk) 17:38, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Just counting beans, without concern for strength of argument, there are 9 !votes in support of a topic ban for Cjhanley and 6 oppose !votes. That's 60% support for a topic ban. In addition, the words of Cjhanley himself in this thread show severe COI, NPOV, OWN, BATTLEGROUND, RIGHTGREATWRONGS, IDHT, and NPA problems. BMK (talk) 17:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

There's enough evidence on both users to fill up a good deal of server space. I just fear the repercussions if WeldNeck cites a ban on Cjhanley as endorsement of the former's editing. This is a unique issue on account of the COI accusations, and is exacerbated by the recent nature of the No Gun Ri revelations and scarcity of scholarship (at least it's been hard for me to find sources). GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

A topic ban on Cjhanely is a reflection on Cjhanley's behavior, period.The situation is unique only in the sense that Hanley has co-authored a book on the subject, and has taken that to mean that anything he writes it is unassailable WP:TRUTH. One of the first things a good reporter realizes is that, try as hard as possible, he or she is going to get some stuff wrong, that's just the way things work: poor memories, deliberate dissembling, access to only a limited portion of the possible documentation, unconscious self-bias, etc. The good reporter gets close enough to the nub that their representation of reality is very, very close to the fact, but they keep their minds open to the possibility of being mistaken, and accept new data to integrate it into their overall view of the story. Hanley doesn't seem like that kind of person at all; in fact, he rejects out of hand any other possible interpretations, and seems to deflect any new information which doesn't conform to his previously established viewpoint. That removes him from the category of a reporter directly into that of an advocate, hence the need for the topic ban. BMK (talk) 00:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 15:55, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Let us count the beans, indeed. User:Beyond My Ken has left 14 (fourteen) messages here. It looks like some of them (to say the least) are falling into the letter soup: NPOV, OWN, BATTLEGROUND, RIGHTGREATWRONGS, IDHT and so on. For example, one can say that, rather than over-reacting, C.J.Hanley should better attend a lecture about "Strategy and Tactic in Low Intensity Conflicts", at the Quantico Marine Corps History Division or somewhere else. But using weasel words to imply that Hanley could be a not so good Pulitzer seems, how did they say, slightly NPA ? In any case, the closing admin should consider how to INCREASE the womanpower working to redact the No Gun Ri Massacre article rather than giving too much weight to a procedural artifice intended against some IDONTLIKEIT. Pldx1 (talk) 12:22, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Wow, counting the many, many ways in which you are wrong would take much too much time of my time, and, frankly, wouldn't be worth the effort, so just.... wow. BMK (talk) 13:34, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Counting the ways that you fail to understand that WP sanctions should be preventative and not punitive is...actually very simple. I apologize that we've distracted your attention from removing talk page comments of other users that you don't agree with, and I apologize that you don't understand that things like WP:OR don't apply to talk pages. And I apologize that you don't really seem to know how this works, but I'll please side on the hours I've spent researching this issue, plus the hours I've spent involved in it, versus your cursory reading of this thread. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 20:50, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

So, let's prevent Cjhanley from acting in the future as he has fairly consistently acted in the past, both on- and off-Wiki, as a very committed advocate for a specific POV about this issue. Unless you'd like to volunteer to be his mentor, and take on the responsibility of keeping him in line? BMK (talk) 22:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's basically what we're doing. I'm impressed you are so unaware. Perhaps the fewer the facts the stronger the opinion. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 23:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Please be careful, you're coming perilously close to violating WP:NPA, for no particular reason at all except that I disagree with your opinion. BMK (talk) 00:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You don't really seem to disagree, in as much as you think it is appropriate for editors to act as mentors and take on the responsibility for keeping users in line. I think it's perfectly reasonable. That's why we're doing it. Don't confuse curtness with aggressiveness. My comment was about your opinion, which both appears quite strong, and also appears to be devoid of the knowledge that we are putting in a good deal of work to help this user conform to community standards. At the base of it you seem to have committed a good deal of time on this thread arguing your case, and I had assumed that, like many others here, you had put proportional time into researching the disagreement. It appears you have not, because what you have (very sensibly) suggested is precisely what we have implemented. I suppose thank you for arguing my case for me, albeit probably sarcastically. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 00:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we please keep things civil? As the above indicates, the three of us seem to be basically in agreement on the key points, namely:

-- Cjhanley is closely affiliated with this subject, and has inappropriately acted to advocate for a POV.

-- Cjhanley should be informed of the pertinent WP policies surrounding COI, WP:TRUTH and original research.

And, most importantly:

-- Any and all outside help on the No Gun Ri Massacre page is greatly appreciated.

As for a topic ban, I think it needs to remain on the table as an option if things deteriorate again.

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:29, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Skyerise

Skyerise (talk · contribs) is obviously very passionate about LGBT issues, but I'm afraid has suffered some sort of meltdown, judging by their recent edit history. The main area of contention relates to Caitlyn Jenner (Bruce, for those under a rock), and which name should be used on articles before her transition. Skyerise was warned yesterday for violating 3RR, and things settled down a little bit, with a discussion opening at WP:VPP. This discussion has drawn large numbers of editors; both Skyerise and I have contributed there and in other fora. And yet, today…wow. Skyerise has:

1. resumed edit-warring;
2. attempted to bully new IP editors by warning them for "vandalism" for perfectly legitimate edits Special:PermanentLink/665345041 Special:PermanentLink/665345537;
3. reported me for "vandalism", when they know full well that good-faith edits are not vandalism (and have been warned for false accusations of vandalism beforehand);
4. and left four separate warning templates on my talkpage over four separate edits within a period of less than 20 minutes, despite my repeated warning for them to stop harassing me

I think a cooling-off block is in order, as passions are obviously high, but the project mustn't continue to be disrupted. If the ongoing discussion at WP:VPP thrashes out a new consensus that aligns with Skyerise's views, then Caitlyn Jenner and related articles can be changed accordingly. ¡Bozzio! 17:12, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

And now they've opened up a copy-cat ANI report. How very mature. ¡Bozzio! 17:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• This is a spurious report. Bozzio is describing as "perfectly legitimate edits" edits to modify wikipedia articles around transgender individuals to refer to them by their previous name, in violation of both WP:BLP and WP:MOSIDENTITY. That is something to warn about. I don't see any warnings from you to Skyerise except edit summaries, and we don't notify people with edit summaries. Ironholds (talk) 17:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Skyerise has made 6 reverts to Athletics at the 1976 Summer Olympics – Men's decathlon in the last 24 hours. BLP Violations are an exception to the 3rr rule, but I'm not really convinced the edits being reverted here are BLP violations. Just because a policy deals with living people, does not make it's violation a BLP violation under the 3rr rule. 3rr BLP exceptions should be clear violations of the primary WP:BLP policy. But its not clear enough so I don't think think a block without consensus would be appropriate. Monty₈₄₅ 17:45, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

@Monty845: usually I'd agree with you, but I don't think the BLP policy was written with this in mind – in other words, to cover situations where something can genuinely be tremendously hurtful, but not defamatory or libellous, which is the standard we apply. The result is a policy that says "we should respect our subjects" but then provides a specific legal test for whether we respect them enough to enforce that respect with no holds barred. And this is fine, if the law keeps up to date. But: it doesn't. Deadnaming is a tremendously hurtful thing to do to any transgender individual, unless they've said they're okay with it, and the presumption we apply is that they haven't. It's just as hurtful, just as offensive, as what we'd class as "defamation" or "vandalism". It's totally within the spirit of the 3RR exceptions to prohibit it, and to give users some leeway in enforcing that prohibiton. That it isn't in the text is a deficiency in the text as a result of the environment it was created in. Ironholds (talk) 17:55, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I think what you say is logical enough to justify not blocking for 3RR right now, but given how obviously controversial the changes are, I think any resumption of edit warring should be met with a quick block. That said, Skyerise appears focused on talk page discussion at the moment, I believe that may prove unnecessary. Resolute 18:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

@Ironholds: I think your position may be a bridge too far. I certainly strive to respect transgendered individuals, as well as all subjects of BLPs, and I think as a community we have come to accept your position at least in so far as it applies to an individual's Biography. But when it comes to historical events that the individual participated in, recorded on other pages, I think your position may be going substantially further then the community is willing to support, at least judging by the current state of the RFCs. More to the point, I think we need to be really careful about allowing 3rr exemption creep. There is a lot of good logic behind not trying to decide who is right and wrong when it comes to 3rr violations, and the carve outs should be as small as possible to protect particularly important concerns, such as actual slanderous falsehoods, and where they can be applied with minimal ambiguity. I just don't see the core concerns of BLP policy compelling us here, and again I think the 3rr exemption should be limited to that core purpose. Certainly other policies should, can, and do provide broader protection to BLP subjects, but again, we need to be really careful about when we authorize edit warring. Just waving BLP policy around can't be allowed to give you carte-blanche. Monty₈₄₅ 18:58, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know about this. I just had a run-in with Skyerise, who I didn't know from a pile of sand an hour ago, and found their approach to defending an edit very aggressive. In the space of about 10-15 minutes, I had two warnings and an advisory on my talk page, with neither warning needed or particularly applicable. Any comment on their editing, including the spraying of talk page templates, is interpreted as a personal attack, yet I found this heavy-handed approach to be both aggressive, as I noted, and an attempt to intimidate me into backing down. There seems to be a lot of frantic energy expended in an effort to skirt the discussion at WP:VPP and to force name changes in articles listing or describing Caitlyn Jenner's achievements while identifying as the male athlete Bruce Jenner. Skyerise needs to take a deep breath, step away and calm down, and gain a little proportion that appears to be lacking at the moment. --Drmargi (talk) 16:20, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Drmargi, please refrain from repeatedly offering advice in multiple venues. You are coming off as extremely condescending and your advice is unwanted. Thank you. Skyerise (talk) 16:30, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Repeat violations of MOS:IDENTITY by User:Bozzio

Bozzio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is repeatedly engaging in WP:BLP vandalism by editing against MOS:IDENTITY on article related to Caitlyn Jenner. They have already received a discretionary santions warning from User:Ironholds yesterday but has chosen to ignore it. They have also engaged in user talk page vandalism by removing valid warnings because they disagree with MOS:IDENTITY. The warnings were valid under that policy. Skyerise (talk) 17:16, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

@Skyerise: Please provide diffs of where they have removed warnings from other users' talk pages so that we can evaluate that part of your concern. —C.Fred (talk) 17:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure, sorry. and . Skyerise (talk) 17:24, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Skyerise, I've never said I disagree with MOS:IDENTITY. I think it's a perfectly sensible guideline, but you've misunderstood and misapplied it completely. You've tried to make out that everyone who disagrees with you is a transphobic nutjob, I think you need to settle down a bit and actually take in a little of what other people are saying. I know you're pretty passionate about this, but try and work within the Misplaced Pages guidelines rather than fighting. ¡Bozzio! 17:34, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Since this is really on the same subject of the above, I have now made it into a subsection. Epic Genius (talk) 17:20, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Bozzio is well aware of the discretionary sanctions these articles are under – sanctions that mandate users "follow editorial and behavioural best practices". It's impossible to look their most recent edits and conclude they're doing anything of the sort. My suggestion would be that an admin block to prevent this situation being perpetuated, although if that doesn't work I suspect a topic ban will be pretty much the only way to de-fang this situation. Ironholds (talk) 17:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Both users arent really acting their best today, so I slapped them both. If both users know what they both did wrong, we can be done with this. Weegeerunner (talk) 17:33, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I guess Skyerise isn't really a fan of fish. Weegeerunner (talk) 17:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm a vegetarian. :-) Skyerise (talk) 17:42, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Well this is awkward. Weegeerunner (talk) 18:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked 48 hours for a bright line WP:3rr violation, with 5 reverts to the same article in the last 24 hours. If someone wants to implement a separate discretionary sanction, I have no objection. Monty₈₄₅ 17:39, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Both of them

Isn't there a big RFC with heavy participation going on about this right now at WP:VPP? Why is anyone on either "side" changing it in one direction or the other before that RFC is concluded? Is there any reason not to topic ban both Bozzio and Skyerise under the discretionary sanctions? Both are clearly treating this as a battleground, making it less likely that cooler heads will prevail, and both have been warned about the discretionary sanctions. I'm probably going to do this sometime today unless someone can convince me not to. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:00, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I've only seen Skyerise engage productively on the talkpage; they're a consistent voice of reason in discussions. I suspect that banning them will make things less cool and reasoned because it will result in a vast imbalance in the voices. Ironholds (talk) 18:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I have participated in the discussion and am thus involved, however my opinion would be that page protection would be better suited than blocking editors. There are just so many people involved that it would likely not stop with 2 blocks. Chillum 18:43, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I think we need full protection on Caitlyn Jenner's main page because there are numerous editing disputes there right now. Then, there will only be a need to block people who edit war across multiple pages. Just my two cents. Epic Genius (talk) 18:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Note the area is under discretionary sanctions, so a 1 revert rule might be a good thing to try. Monty₈₄₅ 19:37, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

That might be a good thing to try, Monty845. A 1 revert rule has to be well publicized on the talk page as there has been a lot of reverting this week (including two by me on Monday). I hope we have learned some lessons since the Chelsea Manning case. Liz 20:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

As an editor who has had a few run ins with skyrise over the Caitlyn Jenner article recently, I do not think that they have done anything which would warrent sanctions at this point. I appreiciate the subject knowledgeable editors who are willing to watch busy artcles even if they do tend to be passionate about it and make some mistakes probably out of frustration with editors who are still on a learning curve with WP policy as it applies to BLP who profess a pronoun change request. ChangalangaIP (talk) 21:06, 3 June 2015 (UTC)—

We still have 1RR sanctions imposed on the article. This should be made prominent at the article's edit notice. Epic Genius (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I don't find Skyerise's well-intended but ideology-inspired effort to sweep historical facts under the rug on Wendy Carlos constructive. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 16:45, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

..by listing it in the infobox? Yes, that's certainly sweeping it under the rug. Perhaps you could approach Skyerise with the same good intentions you read into their actions, hmn? Ironholds (talk) 17:35, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Skyrise just plastered a huge "discretionary sanctions" on my talk page concerning my alleged edits to Hebephobia, a page I never edited. These are tantamount to a vague threat, are very ugly, rude, and since I have never, ever edited the page, false. Skyrise then said no, it was my edits to decathlon, where I changed one reference to Jenner to list Bruce, then Caitlin. I did this (with the caption "consistency") in good faith because there were three references on the page, two of which listed Bruce first. Skyrise needs to be more careful when templating the regulars and stop this antagonistic behavior. Jacona (talk) 17:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry about that, but nearly everyone involved in making these edits seems to have some sort of problem with transgender people and that is the basis of their edit. They are not open to discussion and intentionally misinterpret or ignore MOS:IDENTITY. The template is appropriate as how a transgender person is treated in other articles falls under its umbrella. I apologize since it is now clear that your edit was not negatively motivated, but honestly, more editors need to be aware of how we currently are expecting to treat transgender subjects under WP:BLP. Skyerise (talk) 17:17, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

So you assumed bad faith, then tried to get me to self-revert with a veiled threat, and an implication of authority that did not exist, as the information you provided about referring to them by their current identity is still being debated. How could you possibly think that is reasonable behavior? Jacona (talk) 17:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The fact that "it is currently being debated" does not invalidate the current guidelines. It's endlessly debated every time a notable transgender individual comes out. Those past debates have not yet resulted in MOS:IDENTITY being changed. Until it is changed, it's proper to observe it. Skyerise (talk) 17:27, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

"...nearly everyone involved in making these edits seems to have some sort of problem with transgender people..." Skyerise, you need to dial it back about five notches. --NeilN 17:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Skyrise, what you were doing on my talk page appears to be an attempt to intimidate. I suspect you wanted someone other than yourself to revert because you have a topic ban or some such. That may also be the reason you posted the false article name. Is that it? Jacona (talk) 17:38, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I didn't write the damn template, dude. It's worded the way it's worded by ArbCom, I believe. It also clearly states that it does not imply that you did something wrong. Again, ArbCom wording, not mine. Skyerise (talk) 17:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Clearly, I was not talking about the exact wording of the templates, but your acccompanying verbage. Your behavior was very aggressive, rude, devious, and misdirected. Jacona (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Interaction ban

Merged from seperate section Mdann52 (talk) 17:11, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
This ANI report follows on from my earlier report, and concerns Skyerise (talk · contribs), in their interactions both with me and with other editors, and their editing behavior as a whole. As a result of the earlier ANI report, I was banned for edit-warring. I have no quibble with that, but it did deprive me of the chance to carry on the discussion there. Quite a bit of what I'm posting here has already been detailed on my talkpage (the only place I could post, obviously), but not in any structure. To sum up, I think Skyerise's editing behavior has been detrimental to the project, and something needs to be done.

Interactions on my talkpage and requested interaction ban

I believe Skyerise's continued insistence on posting on my talkpage, despite repeated requests not to do so, constitutes harassment. This is detailed below:

1. Skyerise's first post to my talkpage was a level-three (?) warning for adding "unreferenced or poorly referenced biographical content" – obviously false, and an example of warning template use and a violation of Don't template the regulars.
2. This was followed by a "final warning" for violating the BLP guidelines – see above.
3. I reverted both of these edits, and my edit summary for the second reversion would to most editors be an indication to "back off". I do acknowledge that I lost my temper there (and that foul language should be avoided), but I'm sure other editors can understand that being templated without any attempt at an explanation is extremely frustrating.
4. Skyerise then almost immediately posted two more (, ) warnings for "user talk page vandalism". The edits in question were of course not vandalism by Misplaced Pages standards. I do understand many editors have only a faint idea of what actually is vandalism, as opposed to, say, disruptive editing, so I am willing to assume good faith there. The warnings were posted in bad faith, however, again with no attempt to discuss the issue at hand.
5. My next edit summary was again profane (apologies), but I was quite frustrated at that point. Again, a reasonable editor would take that edit summary and the continued reversions as an indication not to continue posting on another editor's talkpage, and to pursue other venues.
6. However, after those edit summaries, Skyerise posted one, two, three, four more times, all of which I reverted. This included one comment gloating over the fact that I had been banned for edit-warring.
7. I issued a further warning to Skyerise to stop posting on my talkpage, and finally a formal note where I stated that I felt harassed and would be requesting an interaction ban.
8. Skyerise's response was that they had chosen to ignore my earlier requests because "edit summaries are not for communicating with other editors", and "I don't take bitchy orders posted in edit summaries". I would take this to mean that Skyerise read my edit summaries, but chose to ignore them and continue harassing me.

For all of the above, I am requesting a formal interaction ban between me and Skyerise, with all the attributes laid out at WP:IBAN.

Editing behavior

1. Ever since Caitlyn Jenner announced her name, Skyerise has been edit-warring constantly. I really can't be bothered going into it, but I think their recent contributions speaks for itself.
2. This behavior is what led to the run-in with me, and various other run-ins with IP editors and especially Drmargi (talk · contribs) (pinging @Drmargi separately, they may wish to chip in).
3. Skyerise is a very aggressive and rude editor, using templates that threaten sanctions or blocks against any editor that disagrees with them (see also use of sarcasm/passive-aggression at , ). This, combined with their edit-warring, can hardly be called conducive to a collaborative environment.
4. Skyerise has also produced a blatant example of canvassing. Another user, @Trystan:, pointed this out and suggested a re-formulation of the canvassing attempt. Skyerise's response was "I'll speak as I like, write as I like".

Threatening the project

Perhaps the most concerning thing Skyerise has said is this:

1. "I will boycott Misplaced Pages and organize protests against it in the LGBT community if this current status quo is overridden by a bunch of testoterone-poisoned jocks" (the last bit is pretty funny, but even funnier to me given that I'm a bisexual man whose username is taken from a 1980s gay icon). Also note the status quo is actually the opposite of Skyerise's position.

I've never interacted with Skyerise before a few days ago, and judging by their userpage they seem like someone who's done a hell of a lot of good for the project (although with four previous blocks). This is what is really peculiar to me, and it's a bit worrying that someone's behavior could change so rapidly. I understand that passions do tend to run very high over LGBT issues, and Skyerise seems to be very passionate. I'm taking a break from editing LGBT topics and cutting back my Misplaced Pages editing as a whole for a short while, and I personally think it would best if Skyerise did the same, in a way that is hopefully self-enforced rather than imposed by the community. Perhaps some sort of mentorship could be offered, or someone Skyerise has interacted with before could have a word. I'd like to hear from others, and I think I've said everything I want to say, so I'll be butting out. ¡Bozzio! 15:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Response

Quick, somebody call the wahbulance! Skyerise (talk) 15:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Uh, no. I, at least, and I suspect others, would like to see you seriously respond to the complaint here. Please take the time to do so... --IJBall (talk) 16:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, User:Bozzio has either not read MOS:IDENTITY or failed to comprehend it. Due to this, he began to edit-war and I unwisely engaged him. In the process, he exceeded 3RR and got blocked and now holds a grudge. I have not continued to edit war, limiting myself to one revert per day on related articles. That's about it. Not watching this train wreck. Skyerise (talk) 16:13, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh yeah, do take a look at the summary of my work on my user page. Feel free to block me or whatever, I don't (usually) get paid to edit here. Of course, be sure to remember: blocks are not punitive but preventative. I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong at the current moment. Discuss me all you want, I've got better things to do. Especially since the OP apparently can't be bothered to stay present in the discussion him or herself. Ciao! Skyerise (talk) 16:18, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

First, Bozzio, you neglect to mention that you also posted warning messages on Skyerise's talk page. But the number of messages Skyerise posted to your talk page seems like overkill. Skyerise, you talk about a block but Bozzio was asking for an interaction ban...would you have any objections to that? Of course, it would either have to be voluntarily observed or adminstered by an admin. Liz 17:04, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I've already agreed not to post on his talk page once he actually requested somewhere other than in an edit summary. Is that sufficient? Seems like he continues to try to engage me by posting thread such as this, but wants to bow out of the discussion himself. Skyerise (talk) 17:13, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Skyerise, blocked users cannot post on user's talkpages other than their own – you know that and you know very well I was blocked at the time. You've already acknowledged that you saw my edit summaries and made the choice to continuing posting. ¡Bozzio! 17:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

See WP:REVTALK. And using profanity in your edit summaries while simultaneously expecting another editor to obey them seems like baiting to me. Skyerise (talk) 17:35, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Liz, everything I've posted to Skyerise's talkpage is basically mandated – edit-warring warning, EWN notification (regrettable edit summary, my bad), then two ANI notifications. Hence I didn't feel the need to mention them. Also just noticed this relevant discussion on Skyerises' talkpage. ¡Bozzio! 17:15, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Not all of your templates were mandated. And if you hadn't started an edit war (and made more reverts than me), the template you just mentioned wouldn't have been "necessary" either. Skyerise (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Which templates weren't mandated? ¡Bozzio! 17:24, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

The 3RR warning. You had the option not to edit war yourself. Skyerise (talk) 17:32, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

It may not be mandated like ANI, but it's common courtesy to warn someone before going straight to the admins. ¡Bozzio! 17:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

It is mandated if one intends to file a 3RR report, since the report from requires a diff of a 3RR notification. BMK (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, so we can basically agree upon the past. Going forward, can you two stay away from each other? Think hard about this because it means not checking their editing contributions, not lurking on their talk page, just going about your business with no contact with each other. Liz 02:01, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment

I wasn't going to say anything further about this matter, having no wish to be part of Skyerise's drama, much less a further target of her sarcasm and vindictive abuse of process. But after seeing the antics of the last few days, her sarcastic responses to advice from a fair few other editors, and her reduction of editors who don't share her views to crass stereotypes, I feel like I must add one final comment. What's regrettable about this whole affair is that it largely escalated because Skyerise doesn't understand or refuses to recognize one critical, fundamental point of human nature: you can't force another person's respect, whether it be of you, or of what you believe. It has to be earned. Spraying accusations of transphobia like confetti at anyone who disagrees with what she wants, abusing all manner of wikipedia templates and noticeboards, ignoring the advise of other editors, making threats, adopting a "fuck you!" attitude, and especially standing on the mountaintop and shouting, "You'll agree with me because I am right or you'll pay the price!" will get her nowhere. Reasonable, calm and respectful discussion will.

Sadly, all Skyerise has done, via her WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and her various tantrums, is to do her cause far, far more harm than good. Calm, reasonable arguments have no effect -- she sees herself as the sole arbiter of truth and what we all must do, and refuses to move from that posture, using it as a justification for confrontational behavior and edit warring. Moreover, she displays a stunning lack of understanding of a range of wiki-policies, a worrying trait in someone who both claims to be the last word on the section of MOS:IDENTITY she wields like a baseball bat, and has edited here for ten years. All the quibbling, nit-picking, and game playing with regard to other editors' behavior won't change the one, problematic common denominator in this sad affair: Skyerise's aggressive editing. How she's eluded another block escapes me. --Drmargi (talk) 22:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Canvassing and personal attacks

This post by Skye is loaded with personal attacks against users they disagree with. It's also a blatant attempt to WP:CANVASS. Calidum T|C 17:30, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Do I mention any names? That's what makes a "personal" attack personal. This is an "if the shoe fits" sort of situation. The only editors who could possibly be offended by it would be those who fit the general description. Skyerise (talk) 17:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

• Meh. I don't think that's a big deal. Skyerise! Nice to meet you. You got a ton of edits, and yet you don't seem to realize that responding to every single note is counterproductive. If you'd stop pissing people off you'd be much more likely to avoid a ban/block. Happy days, Drmies (talk) 17:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Drmies is correct. Longevity on Misplaced Pages is 40% not pissing people off, 20% having friends come to support you when you are in a dispute, 30% having reliable sources on your side and 10% just plain dumb luck. Liz 01:53, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm quoting that... Carrite (talk) 13:57, 6 June 2015 (UTC) /// Now snipped on my User page as "Liz's Law of Longevity." Carrite (talk) 14:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

"Like" Jacona (talk) 15:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Why not blue link it? WP:LAWOFLIZ? Blackmane (talk) 03:54, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Seriously worried

I may have not exactly been involved this ANI report, but I was following along to see where this would go. I stumbled upon Skyerise's talk page, who made rather worrying (for me, anyways) comments on another user and seems to play a game. After being confronted by AussieLegend about a {{portal}} addition to sections that weren't supposed to be and suggested to add it in External links, the user argued that "Yeah, but I like it better.". Then they went "total bombers". . I would consider this WP:NPA, but that's just me. Then, whilst debuting a wikibreak, they seem to take WP:Content dispute, ANI reports, etc. as a game (which was later edited to ). I have no idea what to make of this, but I find it worrisome and rather disturbing. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 21:41, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a frustrated editor who's perhaps nearing the end of her tolerance for Misplaced Pages and its drama. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:55, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Internetwikier

This user is a single-purpose account, whose interest is focused exclusively on one institution – the United Synagogue, a union of orthodox synagogues in Britain. She has edited two other articles at Misplaced Pages, but those edits were intended specifically to support her particular grudge against the United Synagogue. Originally she tried to add to the article an extensive section relating to a letter by a disgruntled blogger criticizing the synagogue for its pro-Israeli positions. See, for example, this revision. In an RFC suggested by administrator User:Dweller, editors agreed that the material was inappropriate and it was removed.

Internetwikier then added material suggesting that the United Synagogue was the object of criticism for its position. For this, he relied entirely on a three-word quote from the Iranian state radio; he added other references, but none of them mentioned United Synagogue. Every attempt to edit the article or to introduce other material relevant to controversy surrounding the United Synagogue (if there is such controversy) has been reverted by Internetwikier. See this edit as an example.

Internetwikier's posts to the talkpage have been more in the style of outraged tirades than of reasoned discussion of the issues facing the article. It has been pretty much impossible to conduct serious review of the article there.

I would like to suggest that Internetwikier be topic-banned from any articles having to do with British Jewry. If in the course of the next few months, she proves to be a disciplined editor who abides by Misplaced Pages's policies, she could be reinstated.

Note: I have referred to Internetwikier as a female, but I have no idea as to the gender of the editor. --Ravpapa (talk) 12:53, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

@Ravpapa: I am a new contributor to Misplaced Pages, this is true. I am also a specialist in the area of international politics and, for what it's worth, Cybernetics. The accusation of 'single-purpose' account is symptomatic of my early contributions to Misplaced Pages, nothing more.

There is nothing is my current contributions to the United Synagogue website that is against Misplaced Pages rules. I am more than happy for any user to contribute and indeed alter any text that I submit. However, what is not correct is when editors decide to alter direct quotes from a website to 'clarify' what they mean when my submissions makes patently clear that my contributions are direct quotes.

As I mentioned in my comments when reversing the changes that have been made to 'improve' the direct quote, if the direct quote is not to other editors liking then they need to request an amendment to the original source material or find new sources that better clarify an institutions viewpoint. There is no possible way that a Misplaced Pages contributor can submit unverifiable qualifiers to direct quotes for which they have no possible way of diving the speakers 'original intentions'.

This is a direct quote and as such must be quoted directly.

This seems simple enough to me.Internetwikier (talk) 13:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have not been party to the dispute, but for various reasons this article in my watchlist and I have been watching from afar. I would like to back up Ravpapa's complaint.

Internetwikier started editing around the time of the 2014 Israel-Gaza War with a Wikispace rant about the United Synagogue: . His or her edits thereafter basically consist of similar negative sentiment toward various British Jewish and Zionist organizations, with a particular emphasis on the United Synagogue, where his or her edit warring resulted in temporary page protection which he or she denounced as "censorship" and other such talk.

Arguments on the talk page seem to consist mainly of long and intemperate soapboxing about Israel and Zionism and paranoid rhetoric about "the Zionist-propaganda machine", Fox News, and "US Neocon world views" (a personal attack on bobrayner ).

Since there is basically no constructive edits in his or her entire edit history, I would advocate a block instead on grounds of WP:NOTHERE. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 14:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

@AnotherNewAccount: This is a direct quote - why alter this a pretend that the quote says anything other than it actually does on the original sources webpage?

If you wish to add new sources, please add them.

Personal attacks are unwarranted as I am quoting DIRECTLY from the organizations' website. If they had an issue with the content then they clearly would not have produced the material and worded it in such a way as to be ambiguous. Internetwikier (talk) 14:34, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor I find Internetwikier's edits problematic. For example,

• 'The United Synagogue was among the groups encouraging its members to lobby MPs. Its pre-Yom Kippur message to congregants led on the issue. The Board of Deputies issued a "call to action" on Monday, saying there was a risk of a "significant PR victory for anti-Israel, anti-peace groups".'

seems to have been turned into:

• "...by formally advocating that United Synagogue members put pressure on their local MP to not support the motion to recognize Palestinian as a state and that United Synagogue members instead suggest that their MP add support to Pro-Israeli and Pro-Zionist organizations, such as Israel Advocacy UK, We Believe in Israel and the Jewish Leadership Council."

Suggest the editor focus on something else. --NeilN 15:31, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Although professing to be an uninvolved editor NeilN's is clearly not disinterested. While he contributes no sources, quotes or extra material to the conversation he objects to the inclusion of extra material and references provided by others.

Extra references have have come to light ( www.borehamwoodshul.org/aboutus/files/BESNews609.pdf ), produced by those affiliated with the organization, yet you provide no justification for not including it. This needs to be addressed. Internetwikier (talk) 15:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I am interested in making sure what sources actually say isn't distorted. And any interpretation of a primary source (i.e., "President of the United Synagogue, Stephen Pack, took a political stance on Palestinian statehood...") needs to be sourced to a secondary source. --NeilN 15:47, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

• wouldn't this article as edited by internetwikier fall under WP:ARBPIA? I checked their talk history and there have been no notifications. That might be a way to start. Otherwise I would support a topic ban per WP:NOTHERE. holy cow. SPA indeed and seems to be one note POV pusher making this kind of editorializing edits and this, and on talk, this kind of thing and this. Jytdog (talk) 15:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Now notified. --NeilN 17:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
• We already have a surplus of POV-pushing, source-misuse, and personal attacks. We don't need any more. This should be stopped. bobrayner (talk) 16:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful to hear from StevenJ81 and Mutt Lunker who have been editing this article and its talk page. Liz 17:50, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to say much, because I know my own biases, too. I will say this much:

• I offered to set up a sandbox page to try to create a consensus around some reasonable accommodation to Internetwikier's point of view. Whether I like it or not—and I'm not afraid to admit that I don't—I felt the sort of information that Internetwikier wants to put on this page was likely to show up somewhere, eventually, because it was likely to have at least some coverage in some reliable sources. So what I wanted to do was to try to create a space where the critique of United Synagogue might be aired, but in a way that is proportional to its importance within the overall context of the full range of United Synagogue's activities. And everyone seemed to be satisfied with this approach. Nominally, even Internetwikier agreed.
• But I didn't create the sandbox page instantaneously, because of real life. (I warned everyone at the time that I would not be able to get to it right away.) And before I knew it, Internetwikier had started editing the United Synagogue page again. I would have assumed that s/he would have allowed some time for everyone to work on this, but apparently that was not to be the case.
• Additionally, Internetwikier took the perspective that s/he was entitled to write whatever s/he wanted, and that it was entirely up to all the rest of us to make up the articles' balance, if we saw fit. That may be one way to create a NPOV, but it's not much of a way to create consensus.
• Frankly, I walked away, about six weeks ago, because I know my biases. I had really been willing to bend backwards to give Internetwikier some air time. But I just couldn't take it any more. It was clear to me that User:Internetwikier has absolutely no interest in creating an unbiased encyclopedia article. Internetwikier is only interested in her/his perspective, and only wants to edit the article on his/her terms. There is no interest in consensus, and if there is any interest in neutrality, it's technical: the rest of us are invited to "neutralize" her/his edits.

To conclude, my offer to create a sandbox is no longer on the table. Internetwikier is simply not interested in working to create consensus on a neutral article. I can't speak one way or another to the issue of WP:NOTHERE. But I do think that Internetwikier has no business editing this page or related ones. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:29, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I believe it would be instructive, in light of the opinions of the few editors here (who admit that they have a 'bias' yet who fail to provide primary or supporting secondary sources in support of their own bias), to compare the United Synagogue page NOW with what it was, and what it had been for a very, very long time proceeding my intervention last June 2014.

There is a clear night and day difference between the United Synagogue page of today with that of pre-July 2014 simply because the editors in question here, who object so vehemently to my contributions, comprehensively failed to pay the United Synagogue wiki any attention whatsoever - to the point that a clearly pro-United Synagogue wiki-editor had copied and pasted vast chucks of the the United Synagogue official website and passed this off as 'objective fact' about the institution in question.

Leaving aside my clear disappointment with the lack of interest paid to this page entry before July 2014 it is also apparent that the wiki-editors in question who have chosen to 'undo' my contributions display, and admit to displaying either in person or from their listed areas of interest of their personal pages, a pro- Christian, Jewish Zionist or US perspective. This is necessarily problematic such perspectives imbue the writer with a set of beliefs that they deem to be unquestionably objective fact.

It is for other editors to merit the 'quality of my contributions', and I will indeed be making sure that Twitter users who have a range of political and historic backgrounds are now drawn to this wikipage to add their own (arguable better) edits, but what can be deduced without a shadow of a doubt is that none of the editors here have produced even a scintilla of insightful commentary or a shred if evidence for their objections to my sourced points. There are literally no entries from anyone who has any sources for their opinions, except mine. Why is this?

Also worth noting is the clear bias against any news organization who doesn't conform to the narrow world view of politically right-leaning US foreign policy. The clear hatred for an Iranian news agency is a litmus test for the impartiality and objectiveness of the editors who have objected to its inclusion into the category of 'permitted source'.

It is not, and clearly can not be, my responsibility to provide sources and evidence to the contrary that many people believe that being a religious organization and espousing a direct political opinion on a nation state is PROBLEMATIC. With the separation of Church and State, the 'norm' in 21st Century Europe, such a stance by a religious organization merits explicit mention and inclusion in a wikipage. Again, I repeat, just look at how far this page has come since July 2014. Readers can now , quite rightly, see that The United Synagogue has an overtly political active, Pro-Zionist, Pro-Israeli viewpoint that pervades its every public mention of Israel and Palestine. To hide this fact, despite my 'poor quality entries' is to engage in explicit deceit. Internetwikier (talk) 20:06, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

StevenJ81, thanks for coming to ANI and offering your experience. Internetwikier, I just wish you had a better understanding of WP:NPOV and WP:CONSPIRACY.

As for as politically right-leaning? Usually Misplaced Pages gets accused of having a liberal bias and I've frequently seen Misplaced Pages accused of being pro-Israel, anti-Israel, pro-Muslim or Islamaphobic. Misplaced Pages reflects the editors who contribute to it and the reliable sources they can find to support their arguments and governed by generally accepted policies, guidelines and principles. It's a social and cultural construct. Liz 22:05, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Internetwikier, Liz has it exactly right with regard to NPOV. Also we try to build content progressively related to references made in what are considered to be WP:RELIABLESOURCES in Misplaced Pages as considered to be relatively more reliable in general than sources that may have developed less of a reputation for fact checking. Please also make use of reference at CITING SOURCES. On various occasions looking at your citations I found it difficult to see how the citation related to the content that you had added to the text.

Please also consider WP:TALK#USE which states "Explaining why you have a certain opinion helps to demonstrate its validity.." While WP:Original research does not carry weight in Misplaced Pages it may be helpful if you can explain how you developed your views.

The most major thing that I considered to be an issue on the TP was the WP:BATTLEGROUND tactics adopted by both sides with Dweller, StevenJ81 and Technical 13 providing a potentially balancing approach throughout.

A search on site:www.theus.org.uk/ regarding zion, zionist or zionism developed a large content in regard to a controversial issue which deserves report. I sympathise with Internetwikier's desire to see this covered but don't consider the manner with which this has been pursued to have been appropriate.

Internetwikier please do some soul searching and respond to these issues. GregKaye 06:56, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

GregKaye I appreciate you calm, measured comments. I will take on board your suggestions. I would ask that Wiki Editors here help the community to understand why relevant and non political additions to this website are continually removed (I would say censored) but leave that to the individual admin to take a look and see if I'm misspeaking here: I for one am lost for a justification for the continued removal of the Registered Charity No. of this organization and its physical address (Registered Charity No 24255; Executive Offices: 305 Ballards Lane, London N12 8GB; Tel: 020 8343 8989). Please assist the community here. Internetwikier (talk) 07:14, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Internetwikier Various editors have commented on edit warring and adding unsourced material. Even the seemingly moderate StevenJ81 has questioned the validity of your contribution to the mentioned pages. I have mentioned battle ground tactics. One route you could take is to say how you view the situation and to give any relevant reassurances regarding any potential change in approach. I appreciate comment so far regarding taking things on board. GregKaye 08:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: I see. For the record, let it be noted that those editors who have made comments on edit warring are one and the very same editors who have undone my contribution 3 times in a row, rather than they themselves taking to the talk page to look for consensus or writing on my talk page first. As I am relatively inexperienced to WP and they are not, surely it there is a point to be made that trying to enforce others to adopt best practice, without doing it themselves, is a wholly self-defeating tactic on their part.

Specifically on 'edit-warring' it is no so much a question of me adding un-sourced material as the material I add being deleted buy other editors which appears to be exclusively motivated by a desire to remove sources simply because RT News/Press TV has the audacity to print articles that these editors do not agree with, claiming that the aforementioned organizations are not reliable sources of news. Are we really going to censor any output of RT News and Press TV because they're the United States' boogieman of the day?

Misplaced Pages 'represents consensus' and as such hotly political issues represent a challenge to Misplaced Pages as sometimes there is no consensus, rightly or wrongly, to be found (Misplaced Pages apes real life in that respect). However I am not attempting to force anyone to agree with what I believe in nor am I removing any other contributors material - I encourage other too add material to 'balance' by assertions. If it matters to anyone out there, and you appear to suggest that it does matter, then MY personal opinion is that if a religious organization blurs the distinction between religious body offering spiritual guidance to the flock and political lobbyist designed to promoting a racist, inaccurate version of a historical narrative that is 1) deeply divisive and offensive, 2) controversial 3) not independently referenced and, for me the most worrying, 4) behaves in flagrant violation of the rules of a UK registered charity which, according to the UK Charities Commission states that:

Charities can campaign to achieve their purposes. But a charity can’t A) have a political purpose, or B) undertake ::::::::::political activity that is not relevant to the charity’s charitable purposes

then, yes, I do believe that this irresponsible and deeply partisan behavior should be documented publicly on Misplaced Pages. I would hope that you all too would share these modest goals and hope you can suggest ways of helping me to achieve this in fair and 'balanced way'. (Edit unsigned by Internetwikier, 07:03, June 7, 2015‎)

@Liz: Since you invited me here, I'd like to make sure you see one more comment I will make here. Then I'm going to un-follow this page, because as happened when I was previously working on Talk:United Synagogue six weeks ago, I no longer feel I can participate constructively; it is upsetting me too much.

Internetwikier is repeating a pattern here. Initially, s/he is happy to "take on board your suggestions" about handling things in a measured, balanced way. S/he is a good writer, and knows how to say the right things to suggest s/he will stay within the rules. But soon enough an agenda clearly emerges:

• "MY personal opinion is that if a religious organization blurs the distinction between religious body offering spiritual guidance to the flock and political lobbyist designed to promoting a racist, inaccurate version of a historical narrative ..." (emphasis added). I'm a big believer in WP:AGF—including, early on, assuming so with Internetwikier. But that is such a strong bias that I do not really see how Internetwikier can possibly contribute constructively to this page.
• "A charity can't ... B) undertake political activity that is not relevant to the charity's charitable purposes." I think the United Synagogue itself would argue that what it is doing is entirely relevant to the charity's charitable purposes. But unless Internetwikier can find a reliable source that says that US is undertaking political activity not relevant to the charity's charitable purposes, then Internetwikier's proposition on the subject is WP:OR, and has no business here. And if Internetwikier has such a source, quote it, and let it speak for itself.
• "... I do believe that this irresponsible and deeply partisan behavior should be documented publicly on Misplaced Pages." Again, this is an incredibly biased and partisan point of view in and of itself. And Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. There are many, many places that Internetwikier can go to express an opinion, try to document and report partisan behavior (sic), and so forth. But that's not the proper purpose of Misplaced Pages, until and unless the facts are firmly established and of encyclopedic reliability.

If anyone is asking me, the article as it now exists covers the topic appropriately. It devotes a small, but non-trivial, amount of space to the subject of United Synagogue's support of Israel and Zionism. This is reasonable in view of the fact that Israel advocacy is just one piece of what the United Synagogue does—again, not a trivial piece, but not the majority of what it does. Then about 60% of that small section speaks about what US does, and about 40% is devoted to critique of what it does. Again, I think that shows pretty reasonable balance.

I just started writing "I'm not sure why Internetwikier needs to add more along these lines to the article," but actually, I do know why: Internetwikier has an agenda, and wants to expose what s/he sees as racist, irresponsible, partisan behavior. So I welcome Internetwikier to do so—in a journalistic setting, not in an encyclopedia.

I'll add one last thing: If Internetwikier is really so concerned about improper behavior under UK charities laws, s/he can write to criticize charities that encourage members to support Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. Somehow, I don't think we're really going to see that very soon. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban
So, on June 5, Internetwikier was given notice of discretionary sanctions. The very next day, internetwikier invoked Godwin's law on the United Synagogue talk page. That is about enough, right? Propose topic ban from Judaism and Zionism, broadly defined. If an admin wants to do that via DS, more power to them. Jytdog (talk) 22:27, 8 June 2015 (UTC) (struck due to sound of wind whistling through empty streets Jytdog (talk) 15:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC))

@Liz: @GregKaye: @Jytdog: @StevenJ81:

1) You don't have to do any searching all to find the following articles linked from Google when entering 'british zionist organisations charitable status'. These fist page links alone are enough to demonstrate the controversial and glaringly obvious 'hidden' agendas these 'charities' hold by promoting political and racial viewpoints that are contrary to the terms of the charities commission. You've even got an example of an organization stripped of its status for pro-Israeli Arab-bashing!

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/asa-winstanley-uk-charity-with-mossad-links-secretly-denounc.html http://azvsas.blogspot.co.uk/2009/04/charity-commission-attacks-gaza-convoy.html http://www.stopthejnf.org/israel-charity-registration-shows-charity-commission-failed-to-protect-public-interest/ http://www.bradfordpsc.org.uk/?p=64 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3541746.stm

2) FWIW we have already written to the charities commission so your suggestion StevenJ81 was a good one, but 9 months too late.

3 )As for Liz's '60% this, 40% that nonsense' how do you propose passing that off as encyclopedic quality editing? You can only add a little more information about a particular facet of an organization, up to a certain percentage, so that it 'represents the % of what the organization does in the real world!?' How on earth would you go about calculating that? And how would you know? And why would we trust your 40% guesstimate anyway?

No. Instead, how about the rest of Misplaced Pages contribute content based on where their area of expertise lies and if you don't have anything to add to the page, you know, to get the %'s up or down as you see fit, you just accept that fact and move on?

The controversial truth is that the US.org.uk have themselves decided that their raison d'etre be all about Israeli self-promotion and political Zionism that underpins it. I didn't decide this, nor, as you can tell, do I think it's particularly helpful and constructive in promoting religious tolerance (notice I didn't say race here as 'Jewishness' is not a ethnic category, ethnos being another unhelpful divisive artificial categorization notoriously co-opted and misused for political gain, but I digress). If Zionism and pro-Israeli propaganda permeates 100% of everything they do does that then mean, according to Liz's equation, that the page should be 100% about Zionism and Israel? Or is it only about website coverage? Or working hours spent on pro-Israeli issues? I'm sure you can see from my highlighted suggestions that this is problematic and not useful. You basically need to add more content yourselves if you want to 'dilute' our efforts to highlight Zionism within the United Synagogue. Internetwikier (talk) 21:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Internetwikier to whom are you referring when you write "we" and "our"? (e.g. "FWIW we have already written to the charities" and "And why would we trust your 40% guesstimate anyway?" Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 21:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

For the record, the percentages were my writing, not those of @Liz. And clearly, I'm not looking to measure this like we measure flour in a cup measure. My suggestion was more along the lines of "Israel advocacy/Zionism is only a portion of the activity of United Synagogue, so it should only be a portion of the article" and "that portion of the article is more or less evenly divided between description and critique." There's no "equation involved." Cut it out. What I am suggesting is that you are giving undue weight to a portion of the United Synagogue's activities. That's it. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@StevenJ81: "Israel advocacy/Zionism is only a portion of the activity of United Synagogue, so it should only be a portion of the article" is an opinion based on what source exactly? Have you been to their website, read their material, watched their youtube output?

I asked you in all honestly because I can assure you that you won't go for one page of content or 30 seconds of video footage before reference is made to Israel. Does that sound like it's 'only a portion of their activity' if reference to Israel is found in almost every article they write / speak about? Be honest. Internetwikier (talk) 20:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Requested sanction: Topic Ban

1. (Language originally that of @Jytdog, but I concur.) On June 5, Internetwikier was given notice of discretionary sanctions. The very next day, Internetwikier invoked Godwin's law on the United Synagogue talk page. That is about enough, right?
2. (own language) In the section above, I have made a clear case that Interwikier's point of view is so biased that this user cannot contribute in a productive, balanced way on this page, or on any related page.

Therefore, I propose: Topic ban from Judaism and Zionism, broadly defined. I believe this remedy is available via DS, but I will be happy to start any mechanism available to make this happen. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Regretfully, I'd support that. Internetwikier seems unable to edit collegiately or without bias. --Dweller (talk) 15:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• Regretfully my a*se! How about you add some balancing material yourself if it is so important that this page appears balanced - although I'm sure Godwin would also like the page on Hitler to paint a balanced picture too, eh?

That modern day Israel has enlisted an army of PR representatives in the British Jewish establishment has been documented fully. Balanced material would say that you add reasons why this is not 'bad', per se, not that you just deleted the material that said that this is so. Internetwikier (talk) 20:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure you quite understand the actual meaning of Godwin's Law. Perhaps read that first, and then understand how your editing correlates. _Fortuna

Ok, please someone block this user, before they get out of hand with their ranting.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:18, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• support use of DS or community topic ban, whichever comes first. User is using up all the WP:ROPE they've been given here, which has been very generous. Jytdog (talk) 03:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support - if my block proposal is not adopted. AnotherNewAccount (talk) 17:02, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Alternative sanction: Indef block

WP:NOTHERE.   AnotherNewAccount (talk) 17:02, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a strong preference one way or the other between this and my proposed sanction. I would certainly support this approach if the community and/or administrators think it preferable. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:14, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Koolpo's vandalism of The Voice (U.S. season) articles

• Koolpo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• The Voice (U.S. season 8) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• The Voice (U.S. season 7) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• The Voice (U.S. season 5) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• The Voice (U.S. season 3) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This user created a user account on 30 May 2015 and has been vandalizing many of the The Voice (U.S. season) articles. Some of his vandalism appears to be benign (changing colors of tables), but he has also been changing the results of the series. Recommend a temporary or permanent block.

Pinging User:Musdan77 who reverted some of the vandalism.

Natg 19 (talk) 22:14, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

a) Can you provide some diffs (examples) so editors can see some evidence that support your assertion that he has been disruptive? A link to the article isn't sufficient.

b) Have you tried to discuss this dispute on the articles' talk page or on Koolpo's user page? ANI is usually the last place one comes to resolve a dispute after other avenues have proven to be unsuccessful. Liz 01:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Koolpo at some point, perhaps once a clear case has been presented, can you give your thoughts on your editing of these articles? GregKaye 03:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

a) Here are some diffs:

b) As for discussing it on talk pages, I have not done that. Sorry about that. It seemed to me that Koolpo was being overly disruptive, so I wanted to bring it to someone's attention at ANI. Natg 19 (talk) 07:34, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

If it's clear cut vandalism, WP:AIV is your best bet. Nil Einne (talk) 07:24, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• I moved the following comment from the bottom of this page to here, where I presume it's supposed to go. BMK (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I Didn't Do GRAFFITTE — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koolpo (talk • contribs) 23:33, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Note: Koolpo (is anyone else getting bade vibe from this username?...) has gone back to editing The Voice (U.S. season 3) (diff) and The Voice (U.S. season 7) (diff), and I'm not sure that this can be described as "constructive" editing this time either... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:13, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

173.182.136.41 on Fifty Shades of Grey (film)

Hi,

173.182.136.41 have repeatedly introduced factual error on Fifty Shades of Grey (film) (). When I reverted his vandalism of the page, he reverted my revert and posted the comment "Your lying chinese editors have no brains just like your lying british editors they own.". I believe this constituted unacceptable personal attack and request that administrators consider banning the user for vandalism and improper behaviour.

Thanks, — Andrew Y _talk 22:33, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Links: 173.182.136.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, not this person again. The IP has been doing this change since early February with two other separate IP address: 184.162.146.227 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 207.134.235.81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). They began changing American movies and whatnot into British things sine January on other articles. However, they have merged to a Fifty Shades of Grey related article, such as Dakota Johnson . They took a break and returned adding factual errors on the film's article (using 207.134.235.81). They moved IPs and started vandalizing and edit-warring again using 184.162.146.227: . They returned in April after those edits and resumed vandalizing once more: . They were consequently and finally blocked on April 8 by Materialscientist. And now they've returned with bogus editing again. After using an IP locator, I discovered the three IPs are from Canada: two from Montreal and one from Toronto. Callmemirela (Talk) 23:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• Completely unacceptable grammar, more like... Carrite (talk) 23:31, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
• Sounds like a job for an edit filter. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• • I agree that an edit filter might be the way to deal with this. I'm not going to block at this stage as it seems the person in question IP hops fairly frequently, so a block won't achieve much and would run the risk of collaterally blocking someone else. Lankiveil 03:02, 7 June 2015 (UTC).

• Semi protect the article for a time? Blackmane (talk) 03:42, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

E-Meter

In the last few months, I have researched a number of sources on Electrodermal activity and the E-meter. I carefully rewrote those articles and expanded them as well as I could in accordance with WP policies. Within the last few days, Scottperry (talk · contribs) began discussion on the talk:e-meter page, arguing that E-meter was no longer neutral according to WP policy. Scottperry suggested he would be reverting it prior to my edits. I answered him that it was fully supported by peer-reviewed references and he should read them. He said the history was all wrong with "such nonsensical claims as its supposed existence since before 1915, and other such wild and uncited claims." Again I referred him to the journal references. Instead of addressing the sources, Scottperry reverted the page prior to my reconstruction of months ago. I reverted his change and requested him to (1) study the sources and (2) address the issues on the talk page. Scottperry reverted the page a second time and has now opened an improper RFC that is highly prejudicial and misrepresents the history of the discussion as a "consensus." I have enumerated my objections to that RfC in the responsive body. This is much more than a content dispute. Scottperry's conduct is not within the spirit of the Misplaced Pages and cooperative editing. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 08:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Somehow my first reply here seems to have disappeared. I will repost it here from memory.... The "e-meter" is a device that is used by the Church of Scientology, and by some former Scientologists, to try to sort out what they believe are "disturbed memories". The e-meter is a device that was patented by Hubbard ca. 1954, and the name coined by the Church of Scientology, around about the same time. In so far as I know, the Church has never advocated for any other device to be used in its auditing practice. The "electrodermal activity meter" is a device used by law and law enforcement agencies to assist in determining the honesty, or lack thereof, of interviewees. It was invented sometime around 1900 and is manufactured under different patents with slightly different components. Law and law enforcement agencies have never advocated for the use of Scientology e-meters for their work in monitoring electrodermal activity. Now to assert in the article, as SFarney would assert, that the Scientology e-meter has been in existence since ca. 1900, to me seems a bit of a stretch. I felt that this "confusion", along with numerous other "confusions" throughout the article gave me cause to perform a major overhaul of the article in order to bring the article back into compliance with WP policy. I wish my posts here didn't disappear so easily too. This too concerns me. By the way, if anyone from WikiMedia security might happen to read this and want to get in touch with me, I'd be happy to tell you some more happenings that would be guaranteed to knock your socks off! In fact, I could explain to you how they did this deletion, and unless you knew better you would never be able to find a trace. No joke here. Scott P. (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I've been trying to sort out the RfC train-wreck myself, having seen what I read as a notification for the RfC on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine (I have no prior involvement in the dispute). It now appears that Scottperry was actually trying to start a second RfC there, rather than merely notifying the project - which suggests to me that he is hopelessly out of his depth, and doesn't really have much idea about the way Misplaced Pages works. AS to the appropriate course of action, I'm not sure - beyond suggesting that an uninvolved admin should take a look at the two RfCs, and if they agree with my assessment that they are malformed (and in the case of the one at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine, entirely misplaced) to close them summarily as out of process. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Admittedly I mistakenly initially did not follow the correct procedure for the RFC. I have since removed the Medical page RFC as was suggested by Andy, and the RFC is now hopefully properly made. If not, I will be happy to fix whatever mistakes I still might have made with the RFC. I know my RFC skills are not good, but hopefully they are not hopeless, I hope..... Scott P. (talk) 09:36, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I suspect that you probably didn't click 'save' after previewing your post - an easy mistake to make. There is nothing in the edit history of this page to suggest that posts have been deliberately removed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:35, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I am absolutely certain that I hit the save button. This is not the only rather strange "WP-software-glitch" that has occurred with me for the first time in the 11 years I've been editing here, but only when dealing with a Scientology article, of course. Not good. Scott P. (talk) 11:51, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

And with that, I'm out of here. Someone else can sort this mess out... AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

No, just say the word, and I will remove the RFC, I leave it up to you Andy. Scott P. (talk) 11:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted that I have already told Scottperry that I wish to have no further involvement. If he lacks the competence to make such a decision for himself, he shouldn't be editing Misplaced Pages. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:11, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

That is OK, Andy. I will ask no further decisions of you. Thank you for your help of this clumsy editor. Still, my decision is therefore, that I feel just barely able to continue with this RFC, despite my obvious ineptitude. Scott P. (talk) 12:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

According to his own statement in a source comment, ScottPerry twice reverted the page to a version from 2007, discarding the work (and consensus) of many editors. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 12:30, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted that under any other circumstances, taking into consideration ArbCom's discretionary sanctions on Scientology-related articles, Scottperry would have been either topic banned or blocked indefinitely for his actions, none of which have any consensus support. In addition, he has been canvassing on external anti-Scientology forums, as well as flagrantly violating WP:3RR on E-meter. Laval (talk) 12:53, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Additional ScottPerry message canvassing for editors: . Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 22:21, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted that that:

1. In Laval's claim that I have somehow supposedly "flagrantly violated the 3RR rule" in his head Laval must for some reason have redefined the 3RR into his new 2RR rule. If he could please point out where I supposedly made three reverts to that article in a row, I would be quite happy to see this. A word: It's not fair to make up the rules as you go along... By the way, you did notice that your party's cross-posted complaint at the edit-war admin board was closed without even a comment, didn't you?
2. Laval has yet to show me where our off-site behavior is regulated by Misplaced Pages in the manner as he is now claiming. Anyone who might go visit the board he speaks of will see that nowhere did I counsel any type of unethical behavior by anyone.
3. In light of the fact that Laval has not yet once explained his total lack of concern for the WP:Due/ Undue violation at that page, it seems rather obvious to me that he has now run out of any rational arguments for keeping that page so out of balance, so instead he must now stoop to attempting to derail that question which I have asked at that RFC, and thus attempt valliantly to convert it into an ad-hominem attack on me. Smoke and mirrors, no?

Scott P. (talk) 16:57, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:3RR, Even without a 3RR violation, an administrator may still act if they believe a user's behavior constitutes edit warring, and any user may report edit warring with or without 3RR being breached. The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times. Laval (talk) 17:31, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the next time you try to make the claim that someone is: "Flagrantly violatiing the 3RR rule", you might consider following it with the phrase in parenthesis, (my own personal interpretation of the 3RR rule), no? Also, why don't you spend your time specifically answering the question of the RFC and not here? Do you actually think that article is in compliance with Wp:Due/ Undue? If so, why? Scott P. (talk) 17:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Please focus on the problem at hand, which is a pattern of anti-Scientology behavior on your part that is emerging, a pattern of editing behavior clearly prohibited and proscribed by ArbCom sanctions. The problem is when you go to an external forum and basically claim that the Church of Scientology is covertly taking over Misplaced Pages articles on Scientology — here is an exact quote: "Right now there seems to be some kind of a systematic infiltration of Misplaced Pages going on by the CoS... I'm an old hand editor for the last 11 years at Misplaced Pages and some of us are trying to stop this CoS operation over there." That is just one quote. There are many others there where you apparently accuse Misplaced Pages "management" as having been "infiltrated" by the Church of Scientology. Laval (talk) 18:10, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I apologize, but right now I have an RFC to run. Apparently since you can't find anything to the point to say, so you have now made it your business to try to divert me from there. I must say you are doing a better job at this than I expected, but I feel I have said enough here, at least for now. I give you my permission to make claims that I have Flagrantly violated the 33RR rule, investigate my personal off-Wiki life, or whatever types of amazing things you do here. Obviously you will do them regardless of whether or not you have my blessings, but I give you my blessings, none the less. Good luck. Scott P. (talk) 18:19, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

If you had opened the WP:RFC as I had originally advised and conducted it according to the way an RFC is supposed to be conducted, there would have been no need for anyone to post to ANI to begin with. There was no consensus for your wholesale reversion of the article to a version from 2007. Laval (talk) 18:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'd just point out that, whilst clearly falling under the Scientology discrectionary sanctions, this article almost certainly falls under the Pseudoscience ones as well. Black Kite (talk) 18:27, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
• That is a content issue, of no concern for this board. Let's keep the focus. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 21:04, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Actually it's of considerable concern for this administrators' board, since they're the ones who would implement the blocks and topic bans that are authorized by discretionary sanctions which cover contentious subjects such as Scientology and Pseuodoscience. Editors working in those areas have less leeway for behavioral anomalies then are generally allowed. BMK (talk) 01:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
    • I stand corrected. Thanks. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 19:27, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

The editor's behavior has crossed the line: JoeSperrazza (talk) 04:13, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree, though would say he crossed the line as soon as he began accusing other editors of being a part of some sort of covert Scientology attempt to takeover Misplaced Pages, canvassing on external forums spreading this conspiracy theory, and then threatening to rollback articles like Psychiatry to versions from several years previous before a mass of other editors chimed in, stopping him in his tracks. On E-meter, he decided to preempt any attempt at discussion and decided to revert to a version of the page from 2007! And then when he was rolled back on that (which any competent editor would have done), he reverted back to the 2007 version again. He has made similar threats on Citizens Commission on Human Rights, going so far as to claim an RfC was not actually needed to rollback the article to a version from several years ago. That's only the tip of the iceberg, and considering ArbCom discretionary sanctions, it is still surprising to me that he was not at the very least topic banned and given some time to cool off and have an admin explain policy to him, because apparently the word of ordinary editors is not sufficient enough. Laval (talk) 08:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Any cursory review of the matter will furthermore show that Scottperry has basically made a big fuss about nothing and wasted all of our time for nothing. There is no Scientology conspiracy to take over Misplaced Pages, there is no covert attempt on anyone's part to slant the articles in question to a pro-Scientology bias, which are absurd accusations to begin with, and this is to say nothing of the further accusations against myself and others as apparent throughout this section. Laval (talk) 08:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Even more bizarre is Scottperry's attempted involvement of the police and allegation that " I am dealing with some rather unpleasant folks here"? Laval (talk) 11:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

All of those edits have been rev-deleted but oddly, there is no message about this on Scottperry's talk page. I'm not sure what kind of warning to offer since I don't know what the contents of the edit were...vandalism? BLP violation? disruptive editing? Liz 19:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: They were contact details . -- Orduin 19:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, those of us coming to this discussion late in the day will just have to trust that there was material that should have been deleted because the log, wisely, doesn't disclose the nature of the content that was deleted. Liz 20:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

The more I look into this matter, the more snarled up it appears. I read most of the 17 now-deleted posts, and a bit more than "contact information" was in them. Useless to discuss them now, since they are suppressed. Again, this matter appears to be complex. Jusdafax 21:43, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposed block of Scott P.

I'm not sure what to make of this person's claims, but Misplaced Pages needs to be free from them, in my view. For the record I have no involvement in this matter in any way. Jusdafax 19:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

• Indef block Scott P. - As proposer, I've seen enough. The phone number, the police references... (now suppressed) These are covered by WP:NLT, and the ArbCom sanctions make a block an easy call. An admin needs to step up. Let's block and move on. He can email ArbCom. Jusdafax 12:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Additional bizarre accusations and statements by Scottperry: How much longer do we have to put up with this lunacy? Laval (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

• ScottPerry overtly canvassing for Wiki editors to counter the Scientology "infiltration" of Misplaced Pages administration. Many messages on the same theme in the last few weeks.

First off, as I understand it, you are Laval editing under a different name? You wrote this last unsigned post as User:Sfarney, who has a three day old account largely focused on this matter. Jusdafax 21:24, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I did not post the unsigned comment in question and I always sign my own posts. Laval (talk) 23:43, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm also not sure what you mean by User:Sfarney having a "three day old account" — based on their edit history, User:Sfarney has been an active editor since 2012. Laval (talk) 00:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I neglected to sign that post.{https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=666092930]. My editing history is here.

• Oppose Seeing as Scott P has had a relatively calm and productive editing run here, this latest drama excluded, I'd be more inclined to support a topic ban instead. I'm not sure the project is well served by an outright indef block over what is essentially a content dispute that has escalated (albeit unnecessarily). I'm sure Scott feels strongly about the idea that Misplaced Pages is being taken over by the Scientologists, and that's fine, but perhaps that's precisely why he should stay away from the topic in general. §FreeRangeFrog 21:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no intention of attempting any further edits on any Scientology related articles until after the mess I just pointed out is fixed. I have just held my hand over the fire, and I seriously have no intention of putting it back there until some fairly major things change around here, you have my word. Of course you remain free to spin this however you may wish, with a topic ban or whatever, but as for myself, you have my word on this. No more edits on CoS related articles by myself until this rather "huge mess" is fixed. (Hopefully that will be before the end of this century.)  :-) Scott P. (talk) 23:34, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

What is this "huge mess" you are referring to? Is it the alleged Scientology conspiracy to infiltrate and takeover Misplaced Pages you are continually writing about? Or is it the fact that you have an apparent need to ignore and act against consensus and make wholesale reversions of articles to outdated versions from several years past? Laval (talk) 23:46, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Your continued allegations and threats over at User_talk:Scottperry#Tyranny_and_ignorance_vs:_freedom_and_wisdom, including your misunderstanding of WP:3RR and why its not okay to revert 2 times instead of 3 in order to avoid violating 3RR, your inability to communicate properly, not to mention all the other issues going on and in past disputes you've been involved in (such as your attempts to whitewash A Course in Miracles , ironically), illustrate why you should never be allowed near any Scientology-related articles ever agains. Laval (talk) 23:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Not to say that there won't still be a "few little sparks" from this little adventure, that I may still find "smoldering" here and there in my life over the time ahead for myself. But I will not "fan them", should they arise. Water usually works best. In this case that would probably in most cases mean the local sheriff. All in all, it was still well worth it for me. Scott P. (talk) 23:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

See what I mean.... Scott P. (talk) 23:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and security folks, please look at the interesting timing of the three remarks just above. Interesting....... Scott P. (talk) 23:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

• What, specifically, are you alleging? You are beginning to sound a bit WP:NOTHERE. JoeSperrazza (talk) 00:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Holy conspiracy theory, Batman! Someone's talk-page comments have a later time stamp but precede an earlier set of comments - just like these do! Let's see, possible reasons are:

1. (To be confirmed with WMF Security, once they get their Hugo Boss-issued black uniforms back from the dry cleaners) Secret talk page process # Z109 was used to intercept your comments, pass them to agent Laval, so his team of writers could craft a special response designed to make you look like a raving loon,
2. (To be confirmed with the FBI, once they recover from celebrating Donut day) All of your electronic communication devices have been hacked. To recover, please place them all (cell phone, DSL or cable modem, router, Wifi access point, USB hubs, laptops, desktops, tablets, and even land-line and wireless phones) into the nearest microwave. Run for 10 seconds for a quick wipe of the infection. If that doesn't work, try moving them outside, coating with lighter fluid and igniting).
3. The editor in question chose to place his comments before yours, as I did.

• Special note to anyone who's sarcasm meter is broken - items 1 & 2 are remarks made in jest and should not be followed. Sheesh JoeSperrazza (talk) 00:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The time stamps show me posting before Laval, but my comment was placed after his. Have you ever seen that before? When I posted, my screen showed me that my comment would be placed immediately after my own last comment. Still the system interjected a slightly older comment just before a newer comment (thanks to Laval). I've never seen that before. I think I know why the system did that, but I would have to speak with Wikimedia Security to explain. Thank you for asking Joe. You were right, it is good that I got a chance to explain a little further. Scott P. (talk) 00:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Now you're accusing me of what, exactly? Laval (talk) 00:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You did nothing intentionally, and I am accusing you of nothing but doing what all editors generally do, posting a fairly typical rebuttal. But I believe the exact timing of our two posts may have just revealed a certain "security hole". I would assume that you believed your post would immediately follow my comment about the "huge mess", no? Scott P. (talk) 00:31, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's see what Laval says, Robin. Scott P. (talk) 00:34, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

"Have you ever seen that before?" Yes. Quirky behaviour from the Misplaced Pages editor is more or less the norm when posting on frequently-edited pages like this. Posts appear out of order sometimes. It is software. Outdated software. Arguably not very good software. It has bugs. Bugs not (as far as I'm aware) injected by Scientologists in order to... In order to do what exactly? In order to insert posts out of order so pro-Scientology contributors gain an advantage in discussions by... By what? You really need to drop the tinfoil-hattery, for your own good. All you are doing is ensuring that nobody will take you seriously. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:33, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, Andy, I'll take your word for it. I've never seen it before, but maybe I just never had that misfortune before. I'll take your word for it Andy. Thanks, Scott P. (talk) 00:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Yesterday I had never seen my post disappear either, along with a few other very blatant "system malfunctions" that I had never seen before either. Now that disappearing post, I will not chaulk up to quirky software, much as I would like to, I am not quite that gullible. Scott P. (talk) 00:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The way my computer is now interfacing with the Wiki software, I still say the mismatched timing is significant. I could tell you a whole slew of "anomalies" that my computer is now exhibiting, that... yes..... "I've never seen before". Only now I'm taking screen shots and notes, as per suggestions by law. Scott P. (talk) 00:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Evidently for me to point out that I've also seen posts disappear despite apparently being saved would be a waste of time then. Enjoy your paranoia... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

It just did it again.... I think the "timing belt" on this system must be broken. Eleven years of editing here, and now their software starts to act up for me for the first time with this "stuff" going on. Enjoy your blissful ignorance. As for me, no I'd much rather be on a beach right now enjoying coconut milk in the sun, but hey, why not. Scott P. (talk) 00:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Seriously? You must not be a regular visitor to noticeboards like ANI. I lose half of the comments I post due to edit conflicts. It happens all of the time because there are people posting edits at the same time. Liz 01:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC) (and it just happened again right now)

Speaking from experience, it's no use engaging Scott on these kinds of matters. Suggest you stop wasting your time and focus on if there's enough support for any editing restrictions you want to implement. --NeilN 01:07, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I just love it when one of my "admirers" posts for me. Scott P. (talk) 01:12, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit-conflict posting issues are common, when the red EDIT CONFLICT notice pops up right after you hit the "Save page" button.... But posting a comment with the click of the "Save page" button, verifying that it worked, then having it disappear, now that was a new one for me. Been here twice as long as Andy, according to his posting record, and never had it happen once. Scott P. (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

And don't worry, I've got enough odd screenshots just now to satisfy me. Good night to all. Scott P. (talk) 01:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Neil, I needed to get home anyways. Good night Neil. Scott P. (talk) 01:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, I'm not sure if you understand how edit conflicts work. If you get an edit conflict, the software will automatically try to resolve the edit conflict. While it often can't in edits to the same thread in discussions, sometimes it can and when it can it's possible that your edit will end up in a slightly different place from where you expected. (Very very rarely, the software seems to remove an intermediate edit, it will be completely visible in the diff this happened of course.) This is completely normal behaviour and if you've been editing highly active discussion pages for long enough you will probably encounter it. Edit conflicts which the software can't resolve and gives you a warning is only one kind of edit conflict.

Anyway, your edits to User talk:BeenAroundAWhile were suppressed but nothing visibly has happened to your edits here. Nominally Misplaced Pages:Oversighters could suppress their log enteries but there's no obvious reason why they would do so here. Therefore as Andy and others have indicated, continuing to claim publicly that your edits simply disappeared is not going to help your case in any way. There far more likely possibility is you screwed up and failed to save them. I think people could perhaps imagine a single instance or may be two of the mediawiki software suggesting the edit was save when it wasn't (which does seem to happen very rarely). But in that case, you couldn't have verified it worked.

These screenshots aren't going to prove anything but they haven't even been presented anyway. If you really believe you have evidence of possible misuse of suppression (oversight), you should take that up with appropriate people at the WMF privately. So repeating what I said earlier, I suggest you stop with such wacky claims publicly as perhaps it isn't too late to avoid a indef block or community ban.

Nil Einne (talk) 01:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree entirely with your last sentiment, and will do so. However, until I am able to minimally gain the ear of someone in WMF who would be willing to keep a file on things like new and unusual vandalism reports potentially on myself, I will continue to report such incidents with breif and succinct descriptions, on this incident board. I will be happy to call WMF tomorrow, however tonight, being American EST, I must go to bed. Hopefully no further reports will be needed here. Thanks, Scott P. (talk) 05:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

All this distraction aside, Scottperry has violated a number of principles of Misplaced Pages editing, and that is the reason we are here:

• He canvassed for editors on other forums to effect an issue gang-up on the Scientology pages
• Accused (and continues to accuse) the Misplaced Pages administration of being "infiltrated"
• He began a conversation in the talk page, suggesting roll-back to an earlier date. He got two editors to agree, and one strongly opposed, with references and citations, requesting specific problems. He declared a consensus and reverted the topic to a version more than seven years in the past.
• This is the third (at least) incident of Scottperry's radical reversion in the last few months, all in the face of significant community protests
• When another editor reverted his roll-back, he immediately re-reverted it.
• He has threatened to involve the police
• He complains that his electronics are are being "messed with" over this editing conflict
• He has refused to deal with any of the content issues and the RS support for the updated topic. His arguments are almost entirely color, not substance.
• He has "conceded" that his attempted roll-back is a failure, but only because it was overwhelmed with pro-Scientology protest, not that it was incorrect. He even said he "expected" this would happen.
• He implied and continues to imply that everyone opposed to his roll-back is a Scientology agent or dupe.

These actions indicate rather convincingly two things:

1. He cannot work cooperatively to edit and improve the Encyclopedia
2. He is not here to create an encyclopedia, but to use Misplaced Pages to push his ideas

Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 16:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef block, community ban or topic ban with preference for topic ban or scientology related content and discussions and wikimedia or mediawiki security discussions, broadly construed for now with the hope that will be enough. It doesn't sound like Scottperry can resist coming up with wacky ideas which appear to be at least partially based on serious misunderstandings about how stuff works here. And plenty of his statements indicate he can't be trusted to edit on the Scientology area point blank. That area already has enough problems from both sides hence the discretionary sanctions (hint hint), we don't need someone like Scottperry. Nil Einne (talk) 04:57, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Further seeming security related anomalies

I don't know who to bring this concern to, but after 11 years editing here, some slightly "strange things" are now happening to the way my computers are now interfacing with WP, including some of my IP's now giving back reports to me before I log in, that my IP has vandalized WP, which I have not. This is now the second time in the last few weeks that this has happened, and this most recent IP associated with vandalism is 50.33.219.112. The vandalism now associated with my most recent cell phone's IP is rather silly looking vandalism, something about gummy worms and such, but I minimally felt I should at least report this here, in light of other recent events in my editing history. I don't know if this "silliness" might rise to the level of any major concern for anyone.... but if it did, and if anyone might want to reach me privately, and if you might have access to a recent post of mine that was "suppressed" then you might already know what phone number to call to reach me. Otherwise if this is nothing, which it probably is, I will also naturally monitor this complaint to see if this is anything more than a minor issue for anyone. Sorry for this, but at this point I prefer excess caution over unnecessary risks. Thanks, Scott P. (talk) 01:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The one example you gave, 50.33.219.112, has not edited Misplaced Pages nor been warned about the two nonconstructive edits they contributed since November 2013. We don't want you to post other, more current IPs here, since that would potentially violate your privacy, but if this is characteristic it simply means that you happened to be assigned an IP someone else used at some time in the past to edit Misplaced Pages, perhaps unconstructively. General Ization 02:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, please note this user is also being discussed above at Misplaced Pages:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed block of Scott P.. This is more then likely not a security threat at all.TheMesquito 02:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Evidently, despite claiming to have the knowledge to be able to detect security flaws in Wikimedia software, Scottperry doesn't even understand elementary details concerning dynamic IP reallocation, which suggests to me that regardless of what else we do, it might be in his own interest to topic-ban him from discussing such matters further - he is needlessly giving away personal information. This would not of course prevent him contacting the WMF directly if he has genuine evidence of security flaws, which in any case shouldn't be discussed in public. Though frankly, if the 'evidence' he has is on the level presented in this thread, there is nothing to be concerned about anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Evidently Andy believes that even though I've been posting here for 11 years and never seen this before, I should whistle "Sunshine", pretend I didn't see it, tell nobody, and go on my merry way. I thank you the Mesquito for your insights, and Andrew for his merriment. Scott P. (talk) 05:06, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Nothing said so far in this subsection or the one above is evidence of a MediaWiki security flaw. If in the future you genuinely believe there is a security flaw in MediaWiki, contact the developers privately. As has been pointed out, a public place, including ANI, is not the place to post reports of security issues. I'd recommend any future security messages here by Scott be removed as they're either not security issues, and therefore just a distraction from the discussion, or they are security issues and therefore publicly announcing them is itself a security issue. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 05:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure many phones were even capable of editing wikipedia 11 years ago. In any case, I somewhat doubt you were using on based on your comments.... While it depends on the ISP, in the developed world you'll frequently keep your IP for long periods if you never turn off you router and it doesn't autodisconnect. Some will even give the same IP if you only disconnect for a short time. And even with IPv4 address exhausation having happened, AFAIK there are still very few fixed connection ISPs in the developed who use CGNAT. In the mobile world, things are quite different. Even in the developed world, many devices may change IPv4 addressess frequently particularly since they often won't have a continous connection and CGNAT is AFAIK resonably common. Nil Einne (talk) 04:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Apparently Misplaced Pages started acting mysteriously just in time for this ANI thread. It's just mind boggling. §FreeRangeFrog 05:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Yup. When have the developers ever managed to deliver software on time before? ;) AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to close

As the editor proposing a block of the subject, and after further research, I propose we close. There is no consensus, or even much interest, and since my initial block !vote was based on material that has since been expunged from the record, there's no transparent way of explaining my reasoning further. Nor am I satisfied that the complaintant is entirely correct in every respect, and seeing as there has not been much activity on this thread in the past few days, I suggest the matter be closed as a simple "no consensus for action." Jusdafax 00:53, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The problems seem too numerous to ignore and I oppose closing the issue. But nobody seems to be watching or deciding it. . Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Sfarney, the matter should not be closed as User:Scottperry has a habit of disappearing after threatening to quit Misplaced Pages and then popping back up months later to take action again. Many other editors have chimed in with their views that action be taken against Scottperry, and considering he may actually be mentally unstable or experiencing other such personal issues, the proposal to close without at least a topic ban is ill-considered, to say the least. Laval (talk) 02:14, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Speculating about an editor's mental health could be seen as a personal attack, Laval. Can you strike that comment? Liz 10:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Seconding Liz's request. Laval is over the line. Jusdafax 12:03, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Mtd2006

Mtd2006 (talk · contribs) just made an edit on Ramadan even though he knew perfectly well that it would be reverted. There are two talkpage sections about this issue and he is well aware that his edit comes down to the beforehand contested removal of well-sourced information which he and another editor either don't like or regard as dubious (for unsourced and unclear reasons). In addition his edit deliberately mocks my edit of a few days before that and the Misplaced Pages policy of consensus in the process, both explicitly and by the very fact of the edit being made.

On the one hand, I think this irresponsible and childish behavior should not even make it to WP:ANI. On the other hand, I have met only too many editors who with such behavior try to push through their opinions, and it is best to nip this in the bud.

I propose a 3 day edit restriction for Mtd2006 on this article, not including the talkpage. This would not really affect him, but it would serve as a warning signal to him, that mocking WP:CONSENSUS will not be tolerated and that removing sourced information is a big no can do on Misplaced Pages.

Mtd2006 has been warned and informed about this thread on his talkpage. Debresser (talk) 17:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment the warning mentioned above was made ~8 minutes prior to the opening of this incident report. GregKaye 11:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I reject Debresser's assertions. I and other editors have an ongoing problem with what I perceive as Debresser's tendencies toward ownership practices, as he attempts to have his own way in the Ramadan article. The event that triggered Debresser's complaint is as he says... he made a bold revision to implement his is interpretation of consensus stating he hopes he got it right. Debresser's narrative omits several significant events.

• Debresser and I discussed our differences on his talkpage. Note that he ends the discussion with his assertion, "I really think that editors should abide by WP:BRD, which I think is one of the most important guidelines in Misplaced Pages to help advert edit wars."
• Amid spirited give and take among several active editors at Talk:Ramadan#Origins and Talk:Ramadan#Ramadans Alleged Pagan Origins., Debresser made his bold revision. I strongly reject Debresser's assertion about unsourced or unclear reasons. Please review the discussion in the talk sections I mentioned. I did not invoke BRD, Debresser's own preferred method to avert edit wars.
• Instead, I explained my concerns at Talk:Ramadan#New pre-Islamic section lacks consensus, before continuing the BRD cycle. I waited. Debresser dismissed my concerns stating "stop wasting ink on wikilawering ."
• I engaged Debresser using the BRD conflict resolution method he insists upon. I reverted his interpretation of consensus and made my own bold revision that implements consensus as Fauzan and I understand it.

Debresser claims to rely on BRD; he should expect other editors to revert his bold revision and to discuss... abiding by the bold-revert-discuss cycle. I suggested that Debresser rejoin ongoing discussion to establish consensus, propose changes and seek agreement before revising the article. I avoided escalation, although I feel there are grounds to have done so. It's apparent that Debresser disagrees. At this point, I ask for help to resolve this dispute. I have prior commitments that prevent me commenting as promptly as I'd like. Thank you for your consideration. Mtd2006 (talk) 20:04, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Debresser is not addressing concerns raised by multiple editors. I asked him repeatedly to provide a quote to support the first paragraph (Abu Zanad mentioning Ramadan), and he failed to do so. He then edit warred to keep the first paragraph even though it fails verification, contrary to wp:v. The second paragraph is also still under discussion, with valid wp:due objections. I agree with Mtd2006 edit. The section as is should be removed, pending a rewrite with better sources. Wiqi 21:59, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

@Wiqi55 That statement is sourced and verified, and what was not sourced has been removed. With me in agreement with everybody else. Not nice to say lies here. The WP:UNDUE objections are not valid, for several reasons as explained on the talkpage. In any case, the main issue in this post is the behavioral one.

@Mtd2006 I never left the discussion. You did, when you made an edit that you knew would was contested and would be reverted. And that edit summary to mock me and WP:CONSENSUS was really not nice. That is bad behavior, and that is why we are here. At the same time I am still actively participating in the discussion, as anyone can see. Debresser (talk) 09:26, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@Debresser: Ignoring wp:v and lying about the content of sources is a behavioral problem. Now, here is a diff of the first paragraph currently in the articles. What does the cited source say about Abu Zanad's claim concerning Ramadan's origin? Quote it here please, so that we can move forward on this issue. Wiqi 14:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I will respectfully decline to do so, because 1. the content issue is not the reason for this post, only the behavioral issue. 2. Any interested editor can check for himself what is written, what the source says, and what changes I have made to the article. Debresser (talk) 11:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@Debresser: It isn't optional. The burden is on you to point out where exactly Aby Zanad mentions Ramadan. Otherwise, the 1st paragraph should be removed, including the misrepresented sources and fake citations. Wiqi 14:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Having looked at the talk page I personally have concerns that there may be WP:TENDENTIOUS attempt to unencyclopedically remove reference of the historical context of Ramadan and would encourage other editors to become involved. GregKaye 10:05, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I have the same feeling, and have raised this concern on the talkpage as well. I feel a little overwhelmed as a single editor in view of those attempts, but try to uphold the integrity of the article as best I can. I am a little worried by the silence from other editors on this article, although I recognize the efforts of editors like Mtd2006 to adhere to the high standards of Misplaced Pages as genuine.Debresser (talk) 11:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

As an uninvolved editor, may I suggest as a model the exposition at Shabbat#Origins, which feels to me like a very parallel sort of situation. There, the article says (paraphrasing here) that beside the traditional Jewish/traditional/Torah sourcing of Shabbat, some scholars see precedent in the practices of other near-Eastern cultures and civilizations. Article then reports those practices. Article doesn't say that those are definite proof that Shabbat has a pre-Torah origin, only that some scholars make a reasonable case, made in reliable sources, that this might be the case.

The current text at Ramadan (at 22:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)) merely reports on a theory expounded in reliable sources. It by no means offers them as definitive proof of a pre-Islamic source for Ramadan. And, I might add, they don't invalidate the religious explanation for Ramadan stated in the Quran, any more than the theories in the article on Shabbat invalidate the Torah's explanation of Shabbat.

As long as the sources mentioned in Ramadan actually exist and are reliable, I don't see the problem. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds admirable. Debresser (talk) 09:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

IP editor undo abuse

216.177.129.100 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
216.177.129.144 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
2001:590:4802:1CD:1A82:9DC8:F15B:FA91 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
63.141.204.235 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
98.124.175.16 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
216.177.129.55 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
2001:590:4802:2f9:2b1f:133b:35fa:2cd5 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
67.71.140.28 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
just undid several of my edits across multiple unrelated pages without any reason given, as visible from their contribs.--Anders Feder (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Keep expanding the list, and we can hopefully find the ranges we need to block. Monty₈₄₅ 02:51, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Ceased for now.--Anders Feder (talk) 02:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

You don't think that this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. All the IP editors are doing is reverting the OP's undoing of their edits without leaving any reason for doing so, just as the OP is complaining. 86.153.135.110 (talk) 08:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

No. Acroterion (talk) 10:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Everything I looked at was unhelpful on the IP's part and helpful on Anders' part. Consider this edit, for example; the IP changes ] to ]; the displayed text is the same, but inheritance is the most relevant article, while hereditary is a redirect to Heredity, a genetics article that has nothing to do with the legal concept of inheritance. This is the kind of thing that can be undone or rolled back without need for an edit summary. Nyttend (talk) 19:40, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Although I accept your basic premise. I still think it is a bit much when someone complains that someone else is not leaving an edit summary when they are not leaving an edit summary themselves. There are plenty of AN cases that have been declined where someone has complained of someone else not raising a controvesial edit war on the article talk page where they have not used the talk page themselves - exactly the same principle. 86.153.135.110 (talk) 11:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The rapid IP changes involved here really undermines any argument that the editor behind them was acting in good faith. Combined with the clear targeting of the reverts at the editor, on a variety of articles, it is hard to not find the IPs to have acted in bad faith which justifies a revert without further summary. Monty₈₄₅ 14:05, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I believe this is about as fine an example of WP:POINT as one is going to get Blackmane (talk) 06:02, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Violations of WP:YESPOV on Somali pages

In the aftermath of the departure of User:Middayexpress, I've been working to restore a more NPOV (precisely, WP:YESPOV) view of issues on several Somali pages. WP:YESPOV states that "Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight." This means that material that happens to disagree with anothers' point of view should not be removed, because it decreases the completeness of coverage.

The Puntland Maritime Police Force article particularly caught my eyes, as I hope to encourage another user driven away by Middayexpress's POV-pushing to return to editing this and other articles. I reintroduced content based upon United Nations Group of Experts' reports to the PMPF article, and became entangled in reverts with User:26oo. He repeatedly removed these reports on the basis that their content was in some way prejudicial or biased. I advised him that edit warring was not the fashion that this encyclopedia handles these cases, and he told me that he was not concerned with the welfare of this encyclopedia . This raises the question of whether he is not here to build an encyclopedia. I told him that the WP:Reliable Sources Noticeboard was the proper manner of disputing whether sources were unreliable, and he he just continued to try and tell me that the UN Group of Experts' material was undue . Thus in addition to ignoring YESPOV he is distorting the meaning of UNDUE. He has also changed User:Cordless Larry's signature to another user's signature (), though this may have been some sort of mistake.

The community has recognised that Somali articles have been suffering from POVpushing for some time, with its topic banning of User:Middayexpress. Unless we thoroughly implement WP:YESPOV on these pages we will be continuing to allow violations of WP:NPOV. I would request that User:26oo be warned about the importance of adhering to NPOV, and if s/he is not here for the benefit of the encyclopedia, that s/he be counselled that continued editing here is probably unwise. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Buckshot06 is either lying or misconstruing much of what transpired. It's all in the page's history. I reverted large blanking of sections which Buckshot06 said was twisted.1 I asked them to go to the talk page to discuss the trimming down of the sections because it was wholesale removals that were well referenced and balanced. The user responded with what he referred to hostile 'blunt' talk in my talk page saying that "things have changed around here". At this moment I do not understand what he is referring to. After I reverted the blanking, the user removes unbalanced/redundant material in a more amiable approach. I proceed to do the same. During this time, we came to an understanding regarding another page called Corruption in Somalia (refer to my talk page).

Afterwards the user introduces WP:UNDUE material in the introduction which they didn't do previously. This summary is not balanced as per the material in the article. So I removed it until the user either balanced it or we come to a consensus. (talk page Refer to talk page) The material he introduced was clearly in a bad faith given the strategic locations on the article and previous history of removal. The user has no previous edits on the article so reffered them to a third opinion already given in which the same situation is being tackled. It is then that Cordless Larry makes me aware of the fact that user Middayexpress who was a very active member of WikiProject Somalia has been given a topic ban which is why the blunt quote about things changing around here made sense. The material in question however has absolutely nothing to do with that user and was not introduced by that user. Cordless Larry also suggests that the material can be balanced rather than removed altogether which was what was happening however the user is intent on bulldozing his UNDUE material.

The user is using Middayexpress' retirement as an excuse to introduce new material without balancing it. The allegations about Cordless Larry's signature is also untrue. I merely copied and pasted another user's article because I didn't want to type it out and one of the pastes is next to his signature which was by mistake, not replacing it. It was meant to go in my paragraph not both places and I didn't notice it. If you check the talk page's history/time I remove things by accident when I refresh too so it's clumsy not malicious. I also apologized for that, in any case. It's a complete non-issue.

In regards to me not caring about the encyclopedia, I said this; Past run-ins you've had with users do not concern me nor the well being of the encyclopedia.1 So that's also false. 26oo (talk) 00:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

This summary clearly demonstrates that User:26oo doesn't understand what YESPOV means, as he continues to say that that YESPOV material is 'undue'. Buckshot06 (talk) 00:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

A summary in the introduction is supposed to be balanced as per the material in the article. How can you just take one side of the coin and put it in the introduction, it makes no sense. United Nations questions/alleges/asserts... needs to be due. It's not even a major part of the article yet you insert it in the introduction as if it summarizes a large article like that. Can't you see that your material is clearly in bad faith? There is not even a section regarding legality. You mention Middayexpress, a faulty signature and YESPOV as if I'm the one pushing the undue material. 26oo (talk) 00:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

26oo, you have replaced my signature again, and this time also deleted an important part of one of my other comments explaining why I objected to your removal of sourced material. Can you please stop doing this? You didn't paste another username next to mine, you replaced it both times. I'm trying to help facilitate consensus on the article talk page, but that's not easy when I keep finding my comments attributed to other users or deleted. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That's another lie. It was fixed 3 minutes later edit fix. Buckshot06 made a comment before me before the page updated so Misplaced Pages removed it when I submitted, hence why it's fixed 3 minutes later. There's no need to divert attention from the subject, admins can check the history page. It's an edit conflict, not my fault. Your involvement has been reverting back to newly introduced UNDUE material. Your only productive input was suggesting balancing the paragraph. (Refer to talk page). This is a classic case of Wikihounding. 26oo (talk) 08:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Please don't accuse me of lying, 26oo. That edit didn't fix your deletion of part of one of my comments or your edit to my signature - see the diff. It wasn't fixed until I did so this morning. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:23, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

With reference to your comments above 26oo, it's a little irrelevant for this discussion where I started to introduce new text. You'll see that I've done so in the body of the PMPF article in my most recent changes. Please concentrate, for this discussion, on why you believe it is appropriate to continually try and remove one, referenced, point-of-view, which only happens to be from a worldwide IGO with specific responsibilities for international peace and security - a WP:THIRDPARTY. (To address your specific order-of-editing concern, the reason why I was readding material in small chunks was the fact that battleground editors in other Somalia articles had consistently removed large edits I made. The specific place in the article had very little to do with it). Buckshot06 (talk) 09:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You are right, there's one from 6th and one from the 9th. I'm not intentionally replacing them, it's the edit conflicts as I copy and paste names, that's why I tried to fix them. My apologies. I'm not sure why you think it's necessary to bring it up as it's malicious. I think it's an attempt to move the goalpost. It would be a very strange way for me to try and undermine a person. 26oo (talk) 09:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I only raised it here when you did it for a second time. I wasn't interested in raising it in this discussion the first time, but when it happened again it started to seem that you were doing it deliberately. If it was an accident both times, then fine, but please be more careful in future. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

No problem, Cordless Larry. I will be more careful and preview before I submit. 26oo (talk) 10:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Buckshot06

• An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news. WP:BALASPS

• The strategic input of UNDUE material in the introduction, as well as using WP:Weasel such as "ostensibly" is not correct and should be balanced. That's the whole issue here. If it does not accurately sum up the contents of the article, then it has no place in the summary. Also, as pointed out in the talk page, the credibility of the UN Monitoring group has a third party has been questioned given the recent resignation of one of its members for unrelated advocacy. I suggest that we should balance the paragraph and summarize the contents of the article. 26oo (talk) 10:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that Buckshot06 has been canvassing with HOA Monitor and has admitted to have limited knowledge on the subject matter.1 The editor goes on to say that they will follow the lead of HOA Monitor. On the subject, a third opinion was given on HOA Monitor's biased edits but Buckshot06 is now using him to push the UNDUE POV. He is adding WP:WEASEL as well as out of date references from 2012 which is before the deployment of the PMPF.

• I'll follow your lead initially, because my knowledge of the PMPF is currently once-over-lightly; basically I get the impression that it was a private force of the President, or some such. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:51, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

He is continuously adding UNDUE material, using WP:WEASEL as well as out of date references. 26oo (talk) 06:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that's canvassing, 26oo. Canvassing involves notifying someone of a discussion in the knowledge that they will provide support. Discussing how an article can be improved on a user talk page isn't the same thing. This is essentially a content dispute as far as I can tell, so should be resolved by discussion on the article talk page. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That's exactly what's being done. HOA Monitor has a history of trying to push UNDUE material and a third opinion was given, check above. I'm not sure why you'll deny this, "You have two editors saying here that it is valid" refer to the talk page. He says that two users agree and thus must be pushed after the canvassing. HOA Monitor did not even mention the introduction (which is the whole reason we are having this discussion), his concerns are regarding Somalia Report which accurately should be removed and I've done and stated so. Please refer to the talk page before you make any conclusions. 26oo (talk) 08:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that Buckshot's posts on HOA Monitor's user talk page precede the current discussion on the article talk page, so I don't see how they are canvassing. I suggest you continue to discuss the content dispute there. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

And all I am saying is that, Buckshot06 sought the influence of a user that has a negative track record on an article Buckshot06 never edited, before inserting UNDUE material. That said, yes it's being tackled on the talk page. 26oo (talk) 08:43, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

To address 26oo's immediate concern, yes, User:HOA Monitor and I are considering editing and changing a number of Somali-related article, and chose to discuss potential actions before we started them. Such things occur every day all over the site, and are entirely uncontroversial.

What's more important is that User:26oo continues to demonstrate here a fundamental misunderstanding of WP:NPOV: it simply doesn't matter if the material is 'negative' or 'positive', what matters is that it is based on WP:Reliable Sources, and is presented based on how important any piece of data is to the general picture, depending on who is trying to put it across. He has three editors, HOA Monitor, Cordless Larry, and myself telling him on the PMPF talkpage that the Group of Experts material is germaine, a Reliable Source, and WP:THIRDPARTY, yet he continues to argue, here and elsewhere, that because it is 'negative' that it somehow has less weight. I would ask him whether he can draw our attention to any WP rule about 'negative' material, because we continue to draw his attention to THIRDPARTY and YESPOV with very little apparent result. This makes me wonder, given his earlier insertion of untruths in 2009 re Galkacyo, his block for edit warring in 2013, and his earlier admitting 'that nor the well-being of the encyclopedia concerned' him whether he is not here to build an encyclopedia. I have over and over and over again tried to convey to him that 'negative' does not make WP:UNDUE, but he simply does not seem to comprehend this, nor what WP:YESPOV actually entails. I remain increasingly concerned about this user's motives for editing this site. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

This is nothing to do with negative or positive. It has to do with creating a balanced introduction. There's no need to bring up an edit from 2011 which has nothing to do with the subject matter. You've already tried to smear me in your first post on the ANI when you were insinuating I was vandalizing Cordless Larry's signature, an error which he understood.

You've understood that the item is unbalanced in the introduction so you moved it to the overview, which is great. However now you are using WP:WEASEL, to push an out-of date reference in the introduction, before the deployments. Also Cordless Larry is right, we should stay on the talk page from now on, I'm not sure this is the forum for that.26oo (talk) 10:32, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

26oo I take exception to your assertion that "HOA Monitor has a history of trying to push UNDUE" material and challenge you to substantiate that. My previous attempts to edit Somali pages were repeatedly blocked or reverted by Midday Express, who has subsequently been topic banned. In what way does that constitute WP:UNDUE? On the contrary, I find the page places undue weight on Puntland government statements and -- until I pointed it out -- a paid propaganda outlet named Somalia Report. Introducing credible third party sources is intended to redress this imbalance. I find your attempts to exclude content that you object to, including UN reports, very similar to that of Midday and am beginning to share Buckshot06 questions about your motives for editing this site.HOA Monitor (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

No need for soapboxing, I'm the one who removed Somalia report, so I don't know what you are on about. Take the discussion back to the talk page. 26oo (talk) 13:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

If you have little interest in WP:NPOV and as you do not seems to understand what UNDUE actually means, you have repeatedly pushed allegations of 'bad faith' which bear no resemblance to WP:AGF's actual wording, the correct place is very much here, 26oo. Your repeated attempts to remove solid THIRDPARTY sources in favour of involved govt sources like Puntland and paid-propaganda Somalia Report, makes me wonder. User:HOA Monitor, User:Cordless Larry, and I would all like to assume good faith in your contributions, but we are beginning to find this quite difficult. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:18, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The whole reason there's a content dispute is because you are deliberately adding UNDUE material, there's no need for projection. You are also tampering and inserting opinions into referenced text on other pages too i.e Somalia. I'm the one who removed the solicited Somalia Report text and I moved the section about UN bodies to support. So you are incorrect about me removing things. Cordless Larry has an evident bias throughout the talk page and inserts his opinions without reading the talk page. He assumes things I am not doing multiple times throughout the talk page. He also incorrectly assumed I was removing things from the page when I wanted a balanced introduction per content, he also backed off of that agreeing the removal of the 'overview' section. Content was moved to establishment and support.
User:HOA Monitor is claiming I am removing the NYT article, which I actually expanded, contrary to his claims on the talk page. 26oo (talk) 23:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

26oo, you're presenting my comments out of context. When I said "I'm contesting your assertion that material from 2012 doesn't belong in the article", I wasn't assuming that you were removing things, as you put it. I was just responding to your suggestion that "As such, it has no place in the article, let alone in the introduction". Cordless Larry (talk) 23:53, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, for the millionth time, negative does not equal UNDUE. UNDUE states that 'Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects.' You are continually trying to introduce non-THIRDPARTY material, which has less weight than the United Nations reports, as shown by their THIRDPARTY status, intergovernmental status, and consensus of support on the talkpage. What you're consistently trying to argue is that the minority view has equal status, which, given that they are Puntland Govt etc, does not accord with THIRDPARTY. This is simply not WP:UNDUE. Because of banned users like Middayexpress, a lot of Somalia-related pages are completely dominated by unsupportable minority views. These do not reflect THIRDPARTY, NPOV sources. UNDUE is not an argument you can use. Buckshot06 (talk) 00:09, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Cordless Larry. I said it has no place in the article if unbalanced. I simply wanted to point out that the report is before the force was deployed, as acknowledged by the very source Buckshot06 provides.

Buckshot06, your edits are in clear bad faith as you say in this summary that cameras weren't looking. Not sure what to make of it other than clear bad faith. I'm not saying two sides have an equal standing, that's ridiculous but you tamper with your own sources as shown in the link above. 26oo (talk) 00:21, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say 26oo that you do not appear to understand what WP:Assume Good Faith means. I am trying to improve the encyclopedia by introducing more reliable, WP:THIRDPARTY sources (such as those that report the force is for internal security, and they have not reported the internal security operations they've been on). You are denigrating THIRDPARTY sources in favour of WP:QS sources who have Conflicts of interest. Thus I would instead argue that you are not showing good faith in trying to improve the encyclopedia. Buckshot06 (talk) 01:38, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

You are the one who has no good faith and tampering with your own sources i.e 1. You also removed content calling it WP:CIRCULAR when I've shown the original source on the talk page (edit). On the ANI, you pretend to act in good faith but on the talk page and page's history there's tons of bad faith. 26oo (talk) 09:11, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I won't dignify the nonsensical charge of 'tampering with my own source' with an answer. Would you kindly, again, define what you mean by 'bad faith'? We're introducing THIRDPARTY sources, while you're defending WP:QS conflict-of-interest sources. Who's trying to advance a more reliably-sourced encyclopedia here? Buckshot06 (talk) 10:08, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

You are tampering with it, look at the link above. THIRD PARTY is ok but per source. You insert your opinions into referenced text which are not in the source. Here is your opinions in the edit and summary from PMPF article. Now you are removing things because you don't like them even after I proved it was not WP:CIRCULAR, as Cordless Larry even recognized. It's all in the edit history, no need for projection. 26oo (talk) 11:32, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

Guys I strongly recommend you perform a range check on my current IP. I suspect you may catch some sleepers. Where do I post such a request? 82.132.234.244 (talk) 12:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• WP:SPI, but you need to provide evidence in the form of diffs, not just vague claims. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 12:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Ethnicity-based harassment by EconomicsEconomics

• EconomicsEconomics (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Talk:Greek government-debt crisis (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

EconomicsEconomics has been making continuous ethnicity-based attacks since 1 June 2015 on Greek editors at Talk:Greek government-debt crisis constantly accusing them of WP:COI based on their Greek-sounding usernames and other identifiers of their Greek origin. I have given this user multiple warnings about harassing other editors including a final level 4 harassment warning on their talkpage yesterday but to no avail. Today, after I accepted Danish Expert's compromise wording he again came to the talkpage today to accuse me of COI:

(Learning: one should only negotiate with other editors about good WP content if they are free of WP:CONFLICT)

Another attack here from 8 June

Please kindly accept that "username and motivations" are not irrelevant to WP:CONFLICT, even the opposite.

COI attacks against Greek editors from 1 June 2015

May be those authors having a WP:CONFLICT (conflict of interests; COI; here persons that have a special interest in Greece) should stop editing this article and stop blocking everything (COI editing is strongly discouraged in Misplaced Pages).

There are many more ethnicity-based attacks but I have added just a sample that I hope is representative enough and shows a persistence through time as well as unresponsiveness to warnings or discussion. Can an admin please put a stop to this ethnicity-based harassment? Thank you. Δρ.Κ.  14:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not harassing as User Dr.K. knows better but he omitted the following statements (all on the talk page of "Greek government debt crisis") (I am technically not so versed in showing diffs, the bold typefaces are only put in when citing). There are many editors having problems with Thanatos666 and Dr.K., as they show clear behavior of WP:CONFLICT and try to "own" the article "Greek government debt crisis".

Citation 1:

"@Dr.K. , you know it better:

(so why the show if you hate long discussions?)

I am not "targeting Greek editors" but I proposed (after very frustrating and blocking discussions with Greek editors) to Greek editors having a WP:CONFLICT (Thanatos666 himself said that his agenda is to have "Greek interests" represented and that "Greek interests etc. a prominence") that they should refrain from blocking the article improvement. You strongly supported Thanatos666 in blocking everything. What are you trying to convince me? That I'am blind?--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 14:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)"

Citation 2:

"Dr.K. now picked the only option that is blatant WP:SYNTH ( "Due to the efforts of the Greek government to combat corruption - as part of meeting one of the conditional terms in its bailout program, the corruption level improved to a score of 43/100 in 2014" ) - this is totally made up - and anyway not very believable if one has read the press the last years. Also again a very astonishing double standard of Dr.K. who has tried with his other edits on this talk page to make everybody believe he would fight WP:SYNTH (even if there was no WP:SYNTH.). (Learning: one should only negotiate with other editors about good WP content if they are free of WP:CONFLICT )--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 13:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

and it is even intentional deceit by Mr.K. as the title of the Dec 2014 source is the opposite: Corruption still alive and well in post-bailout Greece, detailing: "In fact, if anything, people are now so squeezed they have fewer inhibitions about taking bribes than before the crisis.", and: "Five years on, Greeks are still cheating, bribing and evading their taxes – spurred on by the lack of punishment meted out to offenders" - I don't trust in no word anymore from Mr.K., if I ever had.--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 14:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)"

--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 14:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to show the language of Thanatos666 works in concert with Dr.K: (also on the same talkpage)

Citation 3:

"You are exactly confirming what I said: With a mainstream understanding how economies work it is easy to understand that BOTH happened - Greece got a debt cut worth 100 bn, bailout loans >200 bn, various other supports AND there was a firewalling and support of the international financial and banking system, too (no conspiracy thoughts needed, just common sense). With common sense it is also easy to understand that a 10 mil population with >300 bn debt and a high debt/GDP ratio and >10% annual deficit has to execute a lot of hard changes to arrive again at a sustainable state.

To comment the measures in the debt crisis with a phrase like "the interests of the Greek people were arguably sacrificed" seems to be as POV as to reducing it to a sentence like "the interests of the Eurozone tax payers have been sacrificed because Greece circumvented the Euro treaties and now wants the other people to pay for it". But even if you prefer one-sided sources like Paul Blustein to comment or "better understand" the debt crisis, it does not change the way Misplaced Pages should describe the crisis in a summary, i.e. the main causes, main measures, and main evolvement points. So, why still block a transparent summary of the debt crisis? --EconomicsEconomics (talk) 22:50, 1 June 2015 (UTC)"

You fucking racist idiot, the very fact that it was only ~100bn and that had been for so long delayed and that such a huge new loan(s) was given under such conditions is the very point of it being extremely negative for the interests of Greek people, tipping the scale greatly for the interests of the creditors, even that is, if one limits oneself to a framework of a supposedly, a so called mutually agreed upon, amicable agreement and exclude a Grexit etc (...)

--Thanatos|talk|contributions 02:00, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 15:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

All I see right now is a bunch of people wielding spears and wearing tusk-proof armor, on both sides of the debate. Weegeerunner 16:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Please do not link to humour pages. This is ethnicity-based harassment and it definitely is not funny at all. How would you have liked someone to use your ethnicity to accuse you of COI in editing an article, assuming you were transparent enough to divulge such details about your background? Δρ.Κ.  18:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no humor tag on No Angry Mastodons, and my point still remains. You need to calm down, there is no evidence of blatant harassment because of your ethnicity, I know what ethnicity based harassment is like (as I have dealt with it), and I don't see it here.

Don't tell me to calm down, per WP:CALMDOWN. It is a form of trying to portray an editor as out of control. Please don't do that. If you don't recognise the harassment that's your problem. Not mine. Δρ.Κ.  18:31, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with saying calm down as per WP:AGF. Its clear you are worked up about this, and I don't recognize the harassment because I don't see any evidence of harassment, all I see is incivility all around. Weegeerunner 18:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You keep the meme of "being worked up" going even though I told you not to do so and explained why. Fair enough. You seem to believe that you have superior diagnostic powers about the mood of editors but I think you are definitely wrong in my case. Δρ.Κ.  18:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Hasty assumptions are a sign of being worked up. Weegeerunner 19:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked EconomicsEconomics 24 hours for the personal attack above.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:26, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• • Unblocked after seeing that he proxied Thanatos666's comment from talk page. I would like to hear from Thanatos666 regarding the personal attack.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
  • This diff has the attack.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• • • Hi Berean Hunter. I am not trying to justify Thanatos's intemperate remark, but if you check the date it is from 2 June 2015. One day after he was provoked by EconomicsEconomics's statement:

      May be those authors having a WP:CONFLICT (conflict of interests; COI; here persons that have a special interest in Greece) should stop editing this article and stop blocking everything (COI editing is strongly discouraged in Misplaced Pages).

      Δρ.Κ.  18:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Just applying the "find"-function on the talk page of "Greek government debt crisis" for the three five words

• f...ing
• f.ck
• shit
• idiot
• liar

will always lead to the user Thanatos. But I don't think he is addressable as being very emotional with this article. --EconomicsEconomics (talk) 17:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC) --EconomicsEconomics (talk) 19:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Does Thanatos's behaviour justify your ethnicity-based harassment of the other Greek editors? Δρ.Κ.  18:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Where's the evidence of that? I don't see any harassment coming from EconomicsEconomics. Just basic uncivilty, but seeing what he has been through, it looks like everyone is in the wrong here. Weegeerunner 18:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So you dismiss the three quotes I provided at the top of this section? It is your right and your problem of course. I can't be any clearer about the harassment which I think is clear enough. Δρ.Κ.  18:33, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The three quotes there are simply accusations of COI, I don't see how that means he is harassing anyone because of ethnicity. Weegeerunner 18:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

but seeing what he has been through, it looks like everyone is in the wrong here. Can you specify why I am wrong and what did I put Economics through? Δρ.Κ.  18:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

What you did wrong is quickly assume EconomicsEconomics is attacking you because of your ethnicity, and when I said "but seeing what he has been through," I was referring to the "fucking racist" comments he was pummeled with. Weegeerunner 18:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

And you think the three quotes I gave are not ethnicity based attacks. I think we are going in circles. And do you think that Thanatos's remark gives him the right to say that other Greek editors have a COI? Δρ.Κ.  18:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

When did I say that? He has the right, as a wikipedian to suggest that someone might have a conflict of interest based on their edits, not their ethnicity, nowhere in those quotes does he mentioned the ethnicity of an individual or group of wikipedians, so you have no evidence of ethnicity based harassment. Weegeerunner 18:44, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

so you have no evidence of ethnicity based harassment. I repeat myself: I you do not see evidence of ethnicity-based attacks and harassment after I gave you the three quotes in my opening post, it is your problem, not mine. Δρ.Κ.  22:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@Dr.K.: The last weeks you didn't have such a problem teaming up with Thanatos666 who is constantly hard core humiliating with those 5 words (see above) until today. You never protested the slightest, even defending him here. Isn't this again a bit of double standard from your side?--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 19:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Regarding the "Greek interests" alleged quotation of me: It's a ridiculous example of quoting and misquoting out of context. It's an audacious lie! I've just written a reply to EconomicsEconomics (henceforth E.E.) on this, noting inter alia that he/she has now gone far beyond redemption; instead of me writing another rebuttal anew or copying the former hereto, anyone interested can or should go to the talk page and search for "OK, I had taken a break - something I'm thinking of repeating because".
• Regarding the language I've used: Yes I have expressed myself in "french". And to be frank I would do it again. E.E. has used among other things racist slurs, stereotypes and false and ridiculous personal and ethnic-based accusations (the irony is that he/she among other things has yet(?) to realise that accusing other editors, a whole ethnic/national group of them, for bias after having used him/herself racial slurs, stereotypes against a nation and an ethnic/national group of editors is to say the least a ridiculous and presumptuous contradiction) after I (and Dr.K.) had in fact warned him repeatedly. Dr.K. has remained civil, polite. I haven't, I didn't, having had warned E.E. that I wouldn't (search for "I'm briefly replying to you and I'm remaining reasonably polite only because third parties may read this and I don't want people to think that I/"we" can't respond; next time I assure you, I won't be so polite..."). I had also stated at a relevant point in time that if any admin thinks I must be punished for the language I've used, then OK, fine, but that there must be also other steps taken; search at the talk page for "Preemptively to any wikipedia admin(s) who might read this:".
• E.E., among other things, keeps using fallacious arguments (e.g. moving the goalpost, search e.g. for "1. (myth) – why should it be “impossible” for Greece to collect due taxes and execute privatizations?" taking into account what he/she was replying to and also the eventual response on this specific issue by me; see below, the next phrase I've provided to be searched for), misrepresentations of what other people have said, creative interpretations of WP policies, blatant lies etc; search e.g. for "I shouldn't reply to you - yet again -".
  I personally have long lost any hope that he/she can discuss or act in good faith, even if the racist slurs were to be disregarded.
• PS There has been a long discussion or "discussion" over the last days at the article's talk page that has evolved into various sub-discussions with various people joining in at times and clustering together and against others (to be frank, some of them, imo have joined in to simply push for e.g. an ideology... ;-)); it started with me discussing with Danish Expert. I recommmend, as I always do, to whomever is interested and before any decision is to be made, to go through the whole of it/them carefully because among other things context is crucial. Thanatos|talk|contributions 19:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Give me some diffs of EconomicsEconomics being racist and using slurs. Weegeerunner 19:42, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

"Is this culture of "preserving chaos" and slowing down any progress to the "speed of the slowest" a typical element of a national culture? At least I start understanding why Greece is in trouble apart from what one can read in the press...--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 18:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)"

PS You could have gone through the whole thing (and therefore could have found it by yourself), as I have asked; alas...

Thanatos|talk|contributions 19:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I did that, and that quote above doesn't show any slurs or discrimination against those of Greek background. Weegeerunner 20:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

You're joking, right? Thanatos|talk|contributions 20:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm not, can you please explain how that quote is blatantly anti-greek? Because I think you might be misinterpreting what he said. Weegeerunner 20:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• WTF!?!? No I can't, I refuse to! This is absurd! If for example you really don't understand the meaning and the gravity of the aforementioned phrases then you have no place here judging E.E. or anyone else for that matter...
• To third parties: Do I really have to explain this?!?!? Is this also the opinion of (most) other editors? If so, I simply give up, it would be utterly meaningless to continue... Thanatos|talk|contributions 20:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Not a bad idea.--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 21:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So tell me oh ye wikipedians, would it have been considered my fault had I again expressed myself in "french" towards E.E.?!? ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 21:34, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for jumping in. As you all know, I have debated quiet a lot recently with all three editors, and been reading through most of the posts at the talkpage debate now being patrolled for potential "ethnicity-based harassment" problems. I agree with Weegeerunner, that EconomicsEconomics did not post any "ethnicity-based harassment", but that the debate from both sides suffered from heated emotional tension without sufficient use of WP:AGF. The sending several times of a warning in advance by Thanatos, that if EconomicsEconomics posted something being perceived provocative then his next reply instead of addressing the problem or misunderstanding in a friendly polite manner - instead would be malicious, IMHO does not serve as an appropriate way to respond. In fact such attitude (last time responding by posting 16:31, 9 June: You're such a presumptuous, such an audacious liar... I pity you..., instead of replying "sorry, but you apparently misunderstood and by accident misquoted what I wrote, my point was..."), only fueled further tensions between the two editors in concern.

As for the specific red line you now focus on, my own personal interpretation was that EconomicsEconomics did not intend to post a racist slur with his last line. His main agenda in the debate was to ask for the lead more clearly to summarize the causes behind the Greek government-debt crisis, and I interpreted his last line to refer to this agenda of the debate, namely that "at least I start understanding why Greece is in trouble apart from what one can read in the press". However, Thanatos apparently interpreted the last line to refer to the preceding question line, assuming that EconomicsEconomics implicit suggested that: disruptive Greek editors with a culture of preserving chaos and slowing down any progress to the speed of the slowest was a typical element of the Greek national culture, which now had taught him the "understanding why Greece is in trouble apart from what one can read in the press".

All of the above is only my personal third party opinion of what went on. My hope is, that both sides learned from the clash, namely the importance of always injecting a double dose of WP:AGF in the future before you reply, and if feeling provoked by other replies then its far better to respond by utilizing a patient and civil tone, rather than derailing the debate by posting tension building provocative counter-replies. As I perceived it, all sides from the start intended to be constructive, then the debate got heated, and as a consequence partly derailed. This said, I will leave it for an administrator to assess the two cases in its entirety, as I want to stay neutral in this clash (in which I am not a part). Danish Expert (talk) 22:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)
Right.
Now a creative, an imaginative argumentation on and of supposed intentions has been brought forth and not on and of actual actions. And then the blaim gets passed to me; i.e. even if said intentions had not been (I don't see how could this be) bad, it's not E.E. who should have e.g. apologised and/or tried to mend things and/or denied explicitly to me the explicit accusation against him by me, clarifying things etc. (again, how could he/she?); it's instead me, (and I guess therefore also Dr.K. and other Greek wikipedians in general (let alone Greeks in general)) who should have tried to address the issue, I (and therefore we) the one who had/has been the target of this supposed instance of misspeaking or misunderstaning or whatever else one might say trying to justify this by invoking supposed intentions, and of the rest of the accusations he/she made and stuff he/she said.
Right.
PS Now how could one interpret this
"@Thanatos @DrK: you both seem to agree that the current article "summary" does a bad job summarizing at all; you both say it is too complex for you to write a good or at least mediocre summary; you both cannot specify if you would add/change/subtract specific points from a proposed clear-cut bullet summary I presented as a preparation; you both say you prefer to block other authors to write a clear cut summary ("accusing" them of POV without specifically saying what you specifically identified as POV). After 5 years of a very bad summary in this article, what is the risk here? afraid that you cannot tweak a short and understandable summary so easy later-on (to reflect your personal wishes you cannot really explain here)? Is this culture of "preserving chaos" and slowing down any progress to the "speed of the slowest" a typical element of a national culture? At least I start understanding why Greece is in trouble apart from what one can read in the press...--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 18:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)"
like this
""I interpreted his last line to refer to this agenda of the debate, namely that "at least I start understanding why Greece is in trouble apart from what one can read in the press."",
only Zeus knows...
Or put in another way, what does it (the latter) even mean?!?! ;-)
PPS I repeat, if this is the opinion of most editors then I simply give up... Thanatos|talk|contributions 23:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I only posted my objective third part opinion of how the "accusation debate" now being investigated evolved. None of us (only EconomicsEconomics) can know for sure what EconomicsEconomics meant by the words of his last line in the specific reply you cited above. When applying WP:AGF, one of the potential meanings could be the "friendly one" (green version) that I specified above, namely that EconomicsEconomics posted a set of rhetorical questions to you and Dr.K in the hope this would result or push the debate into a more constructive path in his point of view - and that the last line should not be interpreted in the way you did to the last question line but instead more to the first rhetorical question (meaning EE only intended to hint that: despite of the causes of the Greek government-debt crisis not being clearly enough formulated by the lead of of the article, at least he had "start understanding why Greece is in trouble apart from what one can read in the press", suggesting that the press in his point of view has a negative track record of simplifying what the crisis is about from various angles while failing to present the true technical economic main causes behind the crisis).

My point is the last line of EE can be interpreted in multiple ways (of which my earlier reply also formulated the first one - the "racial slur interpretation" (red version) - which you apparently adopted). However, when the line can be interpreted in multiple ways, the only appropriate thing to do is to assume good faith on EE. I never pointed my blame finger for the heated debate at either you or EE. On the contrary, my reply above reflected my personal point of view, that both of you initially had been only constructive towards each other and engaged in a constructive debate, but that both of you got caught by emotions in the process, and then enrolled each other in a fight that could have been avoided if both of you had excersized a double doze of WP:AGF from the beginning. Moreover, I also find it inappropriate whenever someone reply to something he finds to be "an injust provoking policy-breaking reply", by a counter-reply being a breach of Misplaced Pages's policy of "exchanging substance based arguments in a proper friendly tone while assuming good faith". Adding fuel to the fire is never constructive.

All this said, my personal opinion is, that while both of you kind of owe each other an apology - and both of you could learn something positive from this debated emotional clash, neither of you deserve or qualify to get banned. However, as I am not part of your clash and does not want to be in anyway, I will leave it for an administrator to solve this matter. In this regard, my post (which is the last one here at this ANI page) is only a third part opinion submitted. As I want to stay neutral in this case, I will leave the further arbitration and resolution of the case, to be dealt with by one of the active administrators. Danish Expert (talk) 08:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Right. Stretching E.E.'s words and interpretation thereof to a level, the point of absurdity, so that they could become excusable.
So, let me be more clear, crystal clear:

• Your highly imaginative interpretation does not follow from anything contextual or from the words themselves! Said words are not in any way open to such an imaginative interpretation!
• I don't care if I get punished, I've said so, manyatime already. I've used said expressions, words and phrases used due to stated reasons and after having warned said interlocutor; I, unlike some other people, accept the responsibility for and the consequences of my words, of my actions. But there is no way in hell I'm gonna apologise to E.E. after such behaviour, accusations and expressions against me and essentially all Greek wikipedians, let alone against the whole Greek nation itself!!! Thanatos|talk|contributions 15:43, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

No one is asking you to apologize but it is time to stop shouting and drop the stick. At this point, you aren't helping anyone including yourself. We don't block punitively but we will to prevent disruption. Let's hope that it doesn't come to that. Please see the below section on a proposed solution and see if you can abide by that, please.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:59, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks are continuing by EconomicsEconomics

In the talkpage of the Greek debt crisis EconomicsEconomics continues his personal attacks:

No, Thanatos666 and Dr.K. are not "pushing an agenda", why should they? What agenda? It's obvious for everybody that they are being neutral about this article, and constructively cooperating to get improvements in the article, too. If there should be POVs and SYNTHs kept/introduced because of their actions, it would be pure coincidence, thanks to them it is a really good article, I insist.

I ask again for admin intervention. Δρ.Κ.  22:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, as one can easily verify by going through the discussion(s), I've repeatedly said for example that I don't like at all the present state of the article (see e.g. my long discussion(s) with Danish Expert), it's just that I don't want it to get even worse, according to my views on bad and worse, that is.
Similarly, one can also easily check and verify what Dr.K. (or others) has actually said... Thanatos|talk|contributions 23:34, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I checked, and I see you both acting uncivil. Weegeerunner 02:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, can you provide any diffs about my alleged incivility? Δρ.Κ.  02:16, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

All 3 of them

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose all 3 users, Thanatos666, Dr.K. and EconomicsEconomics should be blocked for incivilty. None of them have clean hands, and they are all just trying to paint the opposing party as horrible while hiding their own mistakes. Weegeerunner 02:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Can you find any diffs to support your absurd proposal about blocking me for alleged incivility? Δρ.Κ.  02:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@Dr.K.: I think I just found my first one. Calling my proposal "absurd" is not civil in any way shape or form. Neither si assuming bad faith so quickly. I still have not gotten a single diff proving he was harassing anybody over their ethnicity.Weegeerunner 02:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I think I just found my first one. Your arguments are becoming more absurd by the minute. You asked for my block based on incivility that occurred in the past not now. And I inform you that your original proposal was absurd and I have a right to call it so. Now, can you provide any diffs for any other alleged incivility than your absurd current allegation? Δρ.Κ.  02:21, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Is this whole ANI report evidence enough? You have made accusations of prejudiced harassment without evidence, and you act condescending and passive aggressive towards anyone who disagrees. That's what people with battleground mentalities do. Weegeerunner 02:24, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Calling someone "passive aggressive" is a personal attack. I remind you of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Please observe these core policies of Misplaced Pages. Δρ.Κ.  02:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Uh, how? I'm reffering to your behavior on the wiki, and I have proof, such as when you said You keep the meme of "being worked up" going even though I told you not to do so and explained why. Fair enough. You seem to believe that you have superior diagnostic powers about the mood of editors but I think you are definitely wrong in my case and how it is uncivil. I think you need to check out WP:NPA2. Weegeerunner 02:32, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

If you don't recognise your incivility and your condenscension I am not going to use ANI to try to explain it to you. My reply to you was measured and civil. Now please move along and let the admins handle your absurd request. I have no time for this nonsense. Δρ.Κ.  02:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Your condescending tone is just showing how uncivil you are acting right now. Weegeerunner 02:40, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You have said that before. Please stop repeating yourself and let the admins handle this. Don't create more clutter for them to shift through. Δρ.Κ.  02:43, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That kind of language is still uncivil. I gave evidence for my claims, and you are being rude. But since I'm not in the best of moods right now, I'm leaving. I'm not gonna stay here and be treated like this. Weegeerunner 02:47, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You can always have the last word. But in parting I advise you to not forget the core policy of WP:AVOIDYOU. Good bye. Δρ.Κ.  02:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Wow, this AN/I is ridiculous, Weegeerunner has provided zero evidence, but wants all three users blocked? The only user who should be block is Weegeerunner for persistently accusing others of uncivil actions with no evidence.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:59, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

My only complaint is where this ANI report has gotten to. However, I do agree diffs would a lot of time. "Isn't this ANI enough?" is not enough. I suggest all users involved to WP:IGNORE, WP:AVOID and WP:GETOUT (if such articles even exist). They're all digging themselves deeper, bigger holes that no one has seemed to get out. I suggest that all users involve leave and let admins handle the report, unless a user has factual evidence of such claim before WP:Losing their cool (again, if it even exists). Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 03:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for Solution

I have read the Greek government-debt crisis talk page in its entirety because single diffs don't help in the light of the accusations. - EconomicsEconomics should be blocked to cool down (incivilties) - Dr.K. should be blocked to cool down (incivilties) - Thanatos should be blocked indefinitely (continuous intentional shocking insults) - Conflict of Interest editors should be blocked from the article for an least 6 months (If reading the article talk page in full it is evident that there are editors with a COI driven agenda leading to heated discussions.)--80.187.98.145 (talk) 09:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok....that is not happening. This IP user may have lost his/her mind. Strange how this is their first post, but nevermind that. And yeah, diffs actually do help in this, since I have yet to see any by anyone.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 09:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Your insults and accusations to parties moderating this discussion are not really helping. To check the validity of the case that includes COI accusations you need to browse a 400 K take page and not to insult other moderators.--80.187.98.145 (talk) 10:50, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Moderatoring? Your "solution" is to block the three users, one indefinitely without any diffs or based reasoning. No one in a sane state of mind would even consider such a dictated punishment. Also, I never made an accusation, just stating how strange it is. Your defensiveness doesn't help in that regard. TheGracefulSlick (talk) 11:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with TheGracefulSlick. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 11:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

After reading a 400 K talk page I proposed a solution. I didn't dictate or implement it. No reason to be rude again and again, TheGracefulSlick.--80.187.98.145 (talk) 11:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It is not rude to criticize a "solution". I wouldn't be so critical of the proposal if it was legitimate, reasonable, and held substantial amount of diffs that could support it. In that case, it failed in all of the criteria and should not even have been recommended.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 11:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I didn't recommend or dictate my solution, I proposed one solution as the title shows and provided reasoning in brackets. Feel free to read the 400 K and do comprehesive diffs and reasoning. Your language in this discussion is rude, not critisizing my solution proposal.--80.187.98.145 (talk) 12:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You were the one who suggested it, why should I provide the diffs for you? That is your job if you want to make an outrageous proposal. Regardless, I read the discussions and, still, your proposal is outlandish. If you want to accuse me of rudeness, I couldn't care less. The fact is the "solution" is way too serious, a reasonable solution should be proposed by an admin, not an IP user who has zero experience elsewhere on articles or discussion (unless you are not a new user...).TheGracefulSlick (talk) 12:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

We don't do cool-down blocks and there is no need for anyone to bicker in this sub-thread. So far, I haven't been convinced that blocks of any kind are necessarily part of a solution here. I haven't been convinced that there have been any racial slurs...if there were a slur at all it may have been nationalistic but not racial or ethnic-based. I'm not convinced that a nationalistic-based attack is happening either. I will say that if I had seen that remark that someone was a "fucking racist" at the time that it happened, I would've blocked Thanatos for the personal attack. Going to that level of incendiary isn't justified at all and does not help anything. This can be taken as a warning that it should not happen again otherwise blocking to prevent disruption is likely to occur. The continual accusations that keep occurring need to cease and those editors that are finding themselves greatly angered should voluntarily walk away and allow themselves to cool down and allow those that can remain calm to focus on the content. Dispute resolution could possibly work but if that breaks down then editors would find themselves here again. Danish Expert, MattUK and bobrayner have been level-headed and insightful and their efforts are commendable. I would suggest that Dr. K, Thanatos666 and EconomicsEconomics take a break and allow others to work on the article for a few days. When you come back, try to rejoin on the talk page without reverting first and seek consensus. Are you willing to do this?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 13:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Perfectly fine for me. Thanks.--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 14:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@Berean Hunter: Sorry Berean Hunter, but if someone uses the (Greek) username of an editor to insinuate an editing COI that's an ethnicity/nationality-based attack. I don't have any problem at all to not revert at the article. My last edit at the article was to implement Danish Expert's suggestion almost verbatim save for a few grammatical corrections and the one before that was to correct another edit which was based on outdated information. I actually rarely edit the article and don't participate in the discussions often and the only reason I participated recently was because of some obvious problems with the edits including SYNTH. You said that if there were a slur at all it may have been nationalistic but not racial or ethnic-based. Fine. Are you going to allow nationalistic slurs on the talkpages of articles without giving the perpetrators a warning? I think you should make clear in your decision that nationality/culture-based attacks are not acceptable and should stop, otherwise you inadvertently provide those prone to them to keep harassing the Greek editors with them. I quote another taunt by EconomicsEconomics to remind you of the kind of attacks one faces on that talkpage from that editor:

Is this culture of "preserving chaos" and slowing down any progress to the "speed of the slowest" a typical element of a national culture? At least I start understanding why Greece is in trouble apart from what one can read in the press...--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 18:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)"

Thank you for your consideration. Δρ.Κ.  18:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I said above "I'm not convinced that a nationalistic-based attack is happening either." I had thought that this culture of "preserving chaos"' might mean Misplaced Pages culture since he seems to be frustrated with trying to make progress...his pleas to not have editing blocked seem to imply that. Nonetheless, he has agreed to disengage which is what I'm asking editors to do when the editing gets hot. You are experienced enough to let a (perceived) nationalistic slur roll off your back. If you feel that it is bait then don't give the satisfaction of letting someone see your anger but redirect back to a content discussion. Someone else might be taking your lead but getting themselves in trouble soon by not dropping the stick and starting to move towards ranting here at ANI. I was hoping that we get things moving forward again by not issuing warnings to anyone but focus on future editing. There are different people whose hands aren't clean and it would be best for all involved to press forward and let other editors try to help if they are willing. If there are warnings to be issued they are in the round.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:26, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

There are certainly some serious and systemic NPOV problems on that article. I note that Dr. K. automatically reverted my attempts to fix part of the problem, with spurious objections in both edit summaries and on the talkpage. Thanatos666's rants are even worse, although the mindset that Greeks are victims of external prejudice is neatly aligned with the problems we have in article-space. If Greek editors are among those responsible for POV problems on an article about a Greek controversy, I hope that other editors may still be permitted to try solving the problems without all getting labelled as hate-criminals. bobrayner (talk) 18:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

When I had mentioned above that I believe that some people had/have joined in at the article's talk page, just to promote an ideology, the main person I was thinking and talking about was you; you, imo, are in no position to cry "POV", "breach of NPOV", etc. Even E.E.'s involvement, quite unlike yours, actually began with an argumentation and a real discussion of sorts despite what happened next. I wouldn't have named you, called you out here, but since you've also come here and continued "arguing" and behaving in the same way...
Oh and for the last time, stop calling my comments rants (and more importantly stop repeating the accusations against Greeks editors!), especially when all you've practically done here or at the article's talk page is to repeatedly make accusations against people, who evidently disagree with your POV, and to agree with edits (or even to propose new edits, even more drastic ones, like removing a whole section...) and comments, which evidently agree with your POV... ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 21:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. I'm hoping that neutral editors may be able to sort this out while the others back away voluntarily. If they would agree to give a few days of latitude to other editors then an acceptable solution might be had.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I thought E.E.'s statement that Dr. K quoted was a nationalistic insult towards Greeks. Any other interpretation is just stretching it to give the user an unjust pass on the statement. I admit the others involved have not handled this gracefully, but that should not hide the fact that E.E. did commit what they have issue with. This is coming from a completely uninvolved editor who has reviewed the interaction of the involved parties.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

(double edit conflict)

@Berean Hunter: You rightfully imply from the context that with the culture of "preserving chaos" I have meant the Misplaced Pages culture since I was frustrated that the WP article is not making any progress as I am interested to improve the article. If anybody understood something else I apologize for the missunderstanding.

@Thanatos666: Up to this ANI I never commented all your hard core humiliations and rants but only focussed on the article because I had to assume it to be a strange kind of humor, wasn't it?

@Dr.K.: I can confirm that you "rarely edit the article" but you omitted that instead you put a lot of energy in a team-up with selected editors to make sure all others also can't edit and improve the article.

One exception: when you saw the possibility to put in the article that "due to the efforts of the Greek government to combat corruption...the corruption level improved" even though the source you had in said "Corruption still alive and well in post-bailout Greece: Five years on, Greeks are still cheating, bribing and evading their taxes – spurred on by the lack of punishment meted out to offenders". (The reason DanishExpert offered in the talk section many versions about the corruption topic including this POV version is probably simple: he tried being too nice to editors who like to see positive reports about Greece because you reverted beforehand in a rude manner on this topic and put up pressure that the story is positive for Greece.)

If these (only historical editing patterns) are not continued there could be a much better article about the Greek debt crisis.

So why not accept Berean Hunter's offer?

--EconomicsEconomics (talk) 19:56, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@Bobrayner: I note that Dr. K. automatically reverted my attempts to fix part of the problem, with spurious objections in both edit summaries and on the talkpage. That's a rather self-serving appraisal of the situtation. You kept adding expired and misleading phraseology based on a 2012 reference even though there was a 2014 reference which made it outdated. This information was corrected by subsequent edits the last of which was the one proposed by Danish Expert. But I have addressed these points in a non-trivial manner, not as you claim spuriously, at the article talkpage so I am not going to expand further on that. Δρ.Κ.  19:59, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@Berean Hunter: I accept that you are ambivolent on the point that a nationality-based attack occured. I disagree obviously but that is ok. You also said that the editor in question agreed to disengage which is a temporary respite. The problem is that he may upon re-engagement start these nationalist-based comments/attacks again. You say that I am experienced enough to let that roll off my back. I guess that is possible but, as is the case with any type of personal attack, making such attacks should not be allowed as a matter of principle and allowing such discriminatory comments on Misplaced Pages without sanctions will embolden these type of users and I don't think this is good for the project. But I don't know why you are telling me to keep-off the article talkpage because my contributions there resulted in more accurate phraseology and SYNTH removal while I have observed CIVIL at least as much as any other editor there. If you think that my presence there is detrimental to article development I would like to know why. As far as your comment about "neutral editors" why do you think I am not "neutral"? My only guide to editing has been since day 1 close compliance to Misplaced Pages's policies. Don't get me wrong though, I would very much like other editors come in and offer their opinions. This is a collaborative project after all and the community consensus is the primary rule. But implying that I am not neutral is not going to be solved by a few days' absence from that talkpage so I would appreciate a clarification. Δρ.Κ.  19:59, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not telling you to stay off the talk page but rather requesting it. I also don't think that you are detrimental to article development but would want you to return after a brief break so that you might help with the improvements. At the moment you aren't neutral because you have been asking for sanctions here and will be perceived as non-neutral by others in which you have engaged in arguments above. If you are editing there during what is supposed to be a hiatus then they would likely re-enter prematurely. The idea is to make space for other editors to work on the article without them being part of the squabbling that has dominated the talk page lately. I believe that it has had a chilling effect as some editors have sidelined themselves and others may not want to enter the fray. This ANI thread is likely seen as TLDR by some editors and a warning by others ("No way I'm jumping into that mess"). If we can let the non-combatants work unabated on the article and talk page they may be able to improve things beyond the present arguments. We'll never know if they aren't granted that latitude.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I have asked for sanctions here based on specific and clear grounds which you did not accept and that's fair enough. Although we disagree, I hope you understand that my report was not baseless or frivolous. But to be sidelined because of the ANI report is not the best way to go forward at least in my opinion. As I said before, I participated in a civil manner with all the other editors except the one who chose to attack my national origin. The squabbling as you call it with the other editors is part of a debate on what constitutes SYNTH and is easily resolvable by an RfC, a report to DRN or ORN and other community resources and not by sidelining. You say At the moment you aren't neutral because you have been asking for sanctions here and will be perceived as non-neutral by others in which you have engaged in arguments above. "Engage in arguments" is part of any normal discussion. Do you think my arguments reached the level of disruption on that talkpage? In conclusion: there is no easy way to answer your comments but one thing seems pretty clear to me: I have no interest whatsoever in participating in a discussion where I am viewed with suspicion or temporarily asked to be sidelined however politely. And by the way, are you going to allow this personal attack by economics made while this report was still open to stand or do you think it helps improve article quality? Δρ.Κ.  00:18, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you think that you are being viewed suspiciously or that I have somehow singled you out. This certainly hasn't been the case. Since you do not feel inclined to accept my proposal then I will simply leave this thread open and let other editors/admins opine on how to best proceed.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:14, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Definitely you have not singled me out, since the request you made did not only refer to me. I also don't think you view me with suspicion. But being asked to stay off a talkpage as a result of making an ANI report which as you say will be viewed by others as some sort of combat which will deter their participation etc., indicates this is not prime time for AGF. This is not counting the nationality-based insults and base sarcasm which still blight that page. In any case I thought that was settled. I just told you I refuse to participate under these conditions. Δρ.Κ.  02:00, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm done with this dispute, after reading my section with a clear head (especialy TheGracefulSlick's comment) I have came to the conclusion that my proposal for all 3 people being blocked was the magnum opus of stupid ideas I have had latley (right behind my RFA and the Raymond Coxon incident), I'm here to make an encyclopedia, not fight. And I'm off to go be competent and productive in my dispute resolutions and editing. Weegeerunner 16:38, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

User:PeterTheFourth editwarring to retain BLP violations in talk page

User:PeterTheFourth has restored three redactions of his BLP violating material (and his first inclusion appears a bit point and gratuitous, as well as the gratuitous BLP violation on my talk page). initial edit using name gratuitously in violation of consensus and BLP. revert BLP vio 1 (my redaction), revert BLP vio 2(Bosstopher redaction), revert BLP vio 3 (my redaction). He cites as consensus but it is very clear in that discussion that mentioning the accused name on the article page are very strict and talk page discussion should only use the name to formulate content, not idly repeat allegations of rape that have been investigated and rejected. Other noticeboard discussions have ended with cautious approach and not to add it . To date, the consensus is that Noticeboard requirements cannot be met. He repeats the BLP violation on my talk page by gratuitously mentioning the name of the accused person who has been exonerated multiple times and claiming he is an "alleged rapist." There is no point in doing this other than to violate BLP and be inflammatory. The person is not a public figure, is not facing charges, has no biography on wiki and there is no venue (or need) to defend him of these charges or even explore them so using non-public figures name in connection with a vile crime is a violation of WP:BLPCRIME, WP:BLPNAME, WP:BLP1E, WP:NPF and WP:BLPTALK especially in light of previous discussion and the current discussion. Repeating it on my talk page shows an attitude of indifference to BLP violations. User:PeterTheFourth is a SPA with few mainspace edits and that began his career editing the GamerGate ArbCom page.First edit. His singular focus appears to be related to topics regarding rape and rape threats. Edit warring to maintain a BLP and restore BLP violations should not be tolerated. He's been here before and obviously knows policy and his way around and should know better. --DHeyward (talk) 18:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

DHeyward is right, something about User:PeterTheFourth's behavior just doesn't add up to me. Weegeerunner 19:58, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

He may not be a "public figure" but because he filed a lawsuit against Columbia University, he has been talked about a lot, at least in the local media. He is not facing charges but his identity is far from hidden. Liz 20:05, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages isn't really that local, so wouldn't that be a case for his identity? Weegeerunner 20:13, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Liz That's not the WP BLP criteria. We are deferential to BLP's and his lawsuit is not notable in and of itself. The article about performance art is not the place to accuse him by name or defend him except as it relates to the artwork. It's a slippery slope which was noted in both BLPN discussions. See WP:LOWPROFILE essay and also the WP:NPF policy Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there are additional protections for subjects who are not public figures. It's indefensible to repeat the claim that he is a rapist especially when there is no place for exculpatory material. Note, that PtF only adds negative information and but reverts the addition of exculpatory court documents regarding the lawsuit you mention. That reversion (or court documents) iswas consistent with BLP (policy) and keeps the article from becoming WP:COATRACK (for the legal cases), but the addition of the negative onesmaterial arewas not consistent with BLP policy - the addition of negative information, removal of excuplatory information speak to POV editing and edit warring. --DHeyward (talk) 20:16, 9 June 2015 --DHeyward (talk) 20:32, 9 June 2015 (UTC)(UTC)

With greatest respect to all concerned, this specific situation is an absolute thicket. Reviewing the bidding for bystanders, as best I can. First, we have the customary issues surrounding identification of alleged rape victims. In this case, we have the further complication that the rape victim has sought attention through performance art about the alleged assault. We have a host of interlocking hearings and proceedings at the University and in various courts, past, present, and contemplated. We further have Misplaced Pages's gender gap and gamergate problems, so it behooves the project to take care that it reached a policy that comports with public standards. In that regard, identifying the rape victim but declining to identify the alleged assailant might raise editorial eyebrows. We also have the potential for absurdity, should the performance artist call attention the alleged assailant's name in the performance. This is a situation that would perplex (and is perplexing) the most experienced editors and journalists. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:05, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• Note: Ibanned — Preceding unsigned comment added by DHeyward (talk • contribs) 22:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• @MarkBernstein - If the matter is framed as an alleged rape victim and a potential slander victim, the path forward becomes more clear. Of course, that would require coming at this matter from a position of impartiality. Carrite (talk) 01:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Carrite: agreed. dHeyward: you're involved, along with half of Misplaced Pages. I'm not addressing you; I'm addressing bystanders who might not be aware of the nuances of a situation which would strain the policies of most (perhaps all) newsrooms today. MarkBernstein (talk) 02:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes MarkBernstein, I am involved in ANI requests I start. It's the reason you should not be commenting here. I don't wish the discussion to degrade into ad hominem arguments like in GamerGate talk pages. --DHeyward (talk) 03:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi there! Posting to acknowledge that I've read this thread- I don't see much to the complaint. You'll be able to see on the talk page multiple mentions of Paul Nungesser's name per the consensus that discussing his involvement in the case is not a BLP violation. I don't imagine that he himself objects to being mentioned, and he has given interviews as Nungesser about this. Per accusations of edit warring (the shocking transgression of not wanting other users to edit my comments) I'll step back from that article until the dispute here is resolved. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 04:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Of note are my two attempts to discuss the issue DHeyward perceives with my mentioning (redacted) name on his talk page here and here, which were deleted without a reply. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 04:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Your assertion appears to false as the BLP violating name only appears in link titles. And yes, I reverted your BLP violations on my talk page and asked you not to repeat them. You declined. --DHeyward (talk) 04:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It appears in the time since I went to bed last night and I woke up this morning somebody has gone through and removed countless uses of Paul Nungesser's name from the talk page against consensus, including from straight quotations of sources. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 04:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Even on this page, he ignores BLP and consensus from the article to restore a BLP violation for a pointy reason. Does anyone need to see the name of someone accused of rape with no charges, not a public figure and consensus not to mention him? Any admins think it's necessary or within policy for this ? It's a clear attempt to smear him and PtF has a history of it. --DHeyward (talk) 07:07, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

This SPA has a clear agenda and masks his repeated disruption of the gamergate articles in feigned politeness, even responding to harsh criticisms with 'Thanks!' etc. Which evidently works on those who should be blocking him for his actions. You're not supposed to accuse people of being socks without hard evidence and I have no hard evidence so I won't say that he is the most obvious sock that I've ever seen. But I think at the very least he should be topic banned. He wouldn't even be allowed to edit the articles if he hadn't made 500 edits on these articles before the 500 edit restriction was put into place. He is the poster boy for why people shouldn't be grandfathered in. Handpolk (talk) 05:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You say you don't have any hard evidence except I see you describe PeterTheFourth as a sock with absolute certainty (diff diff). Please cease smearing this account unless you have diffs to tie this editor with another account. Liz 09:22, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I said it was obvious. That is not saying he is a sock with absolute certainty. For example, I could say it is obvious you are a woman who is deeply offended by the rape portions of this issue and that shapes your views and passion on GGC. However I have no evidence you are a woman or that you are deeply offended by the rape portions of this and that that shapes your views and passion on GGC. It's not absolutely certain at all. Just something that I could say seems obvious. To be clear, I'm not saying that. Just giving you an example to demonstrate that what you said is wrong.

This is the second time there was confusion over what I meant. The first time another editor misunderstood me in the same way you did. So I took greater care this time to make it clear I'm not certain and it is not an accusation. Hope that helps clear things up for you. Handpolk (talk) 13:56, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you trying to intimidate me? I don't see you doing demographic analyses of any other editor. You have no idea what "deeply offends" me or what "shapes" my "views and passions" on that Gamergate article. This personal profiling of an editor commenting is completely out-of-place in an ANI discussion. It's like you assume all women think the same thing and feel the same way, that is obvious although that doesn't mean I can say it with absolute certainty. Because, you know, there's an invisible difference between the two.

And I'm not upset or offended, I just think you made an incredibly stupid edit that makes me take you even less seriously than I took you before. Liz 22:00, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Handpolk I have no evidence that you smell like poo, and it's absolutely not certain at all. But it's obvious that you smell of poo. (See the problem with this form of reasoning?) Bosstopher (talk) 22:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

His very first edit is to GamerGate arbcom is quacking. He's obviously a SPA with previous experience. He has just over 200 mainspace edits (71 to Gamergate controversy, next highest page is A Voice for Men with 16). He has nearly 300 edits to the GamerGate controversy talk page, though. Over half his edits are GamerGate article related. --DHeyward (talk) 18:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• edit conflict

Handpolk can you please specify what "clear agenda" it is that you allege that PeterTheFourth has. On PeterTheFourth's talk page another editor commented on interpreted aspersion. Please don't just say that something exists without specification and evidence.

The mentioned article says "Paul Nungesser ..., as new details come to light, he’s speaking out and fighting back". I don't think that Misplaced Pages would be in danger of being sued in regard to reference to Nungesser's name and I guess it would be up to consensus in the article as to whether it would be of encyclopaedic benefit to the article for the name to be used. Currently the Matt.Perf. article uses the above citation for the text "Shortly after Sulkowicz filed her complaint, two other women with whom she was acquainted filed additional complaints with the university against the same student." We link to the article presenting his name but don't ourselves present the name. I don't see any reason that we can't do so and it is surely a content issue as to whether we should or not. GregKaye 09:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You're aware that we have a BLP policy that doesn't allow us to publish certain things such as accusing someone of rape (whether we are repeating it or not)? Particularly, WP:BLPCRIME and WP:NPF? You are aware that the BLPN discussion has already happened and the answer was "No", correct? I not please read it, then redact it. You should not be publishing his name per policy regardless of the where you got it. It's not a question whether you can find it, it's a question of human decency. We don't have an article on him and the details that exonerate him aren't relevant to the article that involves him. It's policy not to name or accuse people of crimes and he isn't notable outside of that. We can link to lots of stories that are BLP violations on WP. --DHeyward (talk) 16:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Can someone explain why it is considered "pro-GamerGate" to support one side of this issue, and "anti-GamerGate" to support the other? Which side is which, in the case of this dispute? JoeSperrazza (talk) 09:42, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Caricatured answer - "pro-GamerGate" = Feminists are deranged....look at what this crazy feminist has done; "anti-GamerGate" = women are victims and need challenge nasty men. This then extends to any battle-of-the-sexes topic that can be identified in terms of these caricatured positions. In this case, self-publicising woman accuses a poor man; self-empowering woman challenges brutal male actions through art. Paul B (talk) 09:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The simple answer is: because the world is a depressing and miserable place. Alternatively go to /r/KotakuInAction and search for Sulkowicz. Then go to /r/Gamerghazi or /r/SRSFeminism and search for Sulkowicz and compare. Bosstopher (talk) 10:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it is a gamergate thing (check the search results, for example)- speaking personally, my interest in it comes because it falls within the general sphere of 'social justice'. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 11:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Greg -- "can you please specify what "clear agenda" it is that you allege that PeterTheFourth has" I can do you one better. He just admitted it right here. This 'social justice' distinction is semantics. Off of Misplaced Pages GGC has grown and become about more than that which is on this article. And people that are sometimes called 'Social Justice Warriors' (SJW's) have taken up the non-GG side. PeterTheFourth has essentially just admitted being an SJW. By definition, having a clear agenda. Handpolk (talk) 14:04, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

be definition, everyone has bias and agenda. the issue is whether or not such adversely affects your ability to edit within Misplaced Pages's policies and goals. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no bias or agenda. Unless you call wanting neutral and unbiased articles a biased agenda. I agree with each side on many things. At present it's usually unnecessary for me to say when I disagree with the ggers because they are already losing so badly. Handpolk (talk) 15:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, that is right. you have asserted that already! You go go go Mr/Ms Purely Neutral YOU! It is certainly enlightening for me to see what pure neutrality in editing looks like as I had a completely different understanding. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Right, no bias or agenda, only wanting neutrality. Is that why you called me a "SJW shill" even though I have only made one or two edits to the Gamergate article? I have treated you civilly, I even responded to some of your questions. I don't understand how you can't see you can't have it both ways, you can't declare yourself only wanting neutrality while at the same time trying to figure out who is on which "side". This is just childish behavior. Liz 00:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, suggest Handpolk rethink their comment. Having an interest in social justice is not by definition a "social justice warrior", and generally speaking that term is used as a dismissive pejorative and could be construed as a personal attack. — Strongjam (talk) 14:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It's also used proudly as a self-identifier. I imagine this will come up again so I am willing to submit to your pedantry. How would you like me to word that to your liking, while communicating the same thing? Handpolk (talk) 15:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

@Handpolk: If your intent is to say someone is advocating some form of social justice platform, then just say that. — Strongjam (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

JoeSperrazza it's not GamerGate related except for PeterTheFourth being a GamerGate SPA . As such, there are contributors here that are the usual GamerGate contributors. I made a "new section" post to the talk page of the "Matress" article (unrelated to GamerGate) to explain an edit I made and ask a question and two regular gamergate editors immediately answered. They had edited there before I believe but not everyone that has chimed in has, I believe. I didn't direct the Matress talk page question at anyone in particular and I suspect the very blatant and pointy use of the name was baiting but of course, that would require a crystal ball. On its face, it's not hardly coincidence. Other regular Matrress editors responded appropriately and noted the decision not to name the accused and highlighted two BLPN noticeboard discussions. Why Bernstein is commenting on my ANI request is unknown as that violates the terms of a GamerGate IBAN (I had requested the IBAN be lifted earlier and hopefully it will be after this ANI shows it's pointless) but it's not unusual to see the same 4 or 5 editors in the same place at the same time. --DHeyward (talk) 22:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Would like to clarify the reason I used the name. I was trying to demonstrate that their was not a contentious statement and thereby not covered by BLPTALK. For this reason I used the phrase (paraphrasing) "It's not contentious that is ." While normally I tend to use "the accused" instead of the guys name I dont (as I explained and Aquillion reiterated her) think its a BLP violation. I also thought that " is " reads better than "the accused is the accused." Was not trying to bait at all, and am not really sure exactly what it is I'd be trying to bait you into. If anything I've had far more confrontational interactions with Peter while editing than you, so if I had a motive to bait anyone editing the mattress page surely it would be him and not you? Bosstopher (talk) 23:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Break

As others pointed out to you on that page, simply mentioning him on the talk page doesn't seem to violate WP:BLPTALK, which states that "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related to making content choices should be removed, deleted, or oversighted, as appropriate." The fact that he was accused is not controversial and is well-sourced, and I don't see anyone implying more than that there. This doesn't necessarily mean it should be in the article, of course, but I don't think WP:BLP requires censoring it on the talk page. In the talk page where this was discussed, I notice that you mentioned, by way of comparison, "If GamerGate BLPTALK rules are applied...", which I assume is what's confusing you here; the issue that led to so many talk-page redactions that case wasn't just that names shouldn't be mentioned, it was that people were posting accusations that were both contentious and poorly-sourced. Posting an accused's name in a context that implies guilt when that's not well-sourced wouldn't be allowed; but (provided the accusation itself is well-sourced to BLP-quality sources) simply mentioning their name in talk isn't generally a problem as long as you're cautious not to make poorly-sourced accusations. Notice that all of the policies you cite there are cautiously worded, encouraging us to think carefully about when and where to use names, but not placing universal bans on their use; given that, and given that censoring someone else's comments is generally considered a pretty big deal, I think you overstepped somewhat in removing the name repeatedly. Also notice that the talk page guidelines explicitly state that "Cautiously editing or removing another editor's comments is sometimes allowed, but its best to get their permission and normally you should stop if there is any objection"; you should definitely have stopped removing it after one revert. --Aquillion (talk) 13:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

What seems to be confusing you is BLP applies everywhere. BLPTALK allows links for the limited purposes of discussion for adding content (GamerGate articles don't even allow that, regardless of quality, if the content contains anything that wouldn't be allowed in an article on WP). All of BLP still applies including WP:NPF, WP:CRIME (please read them and apply them to talk pages). If the name were being used as proposals for content, it's fine. If it's being used to gratuitously connect him to an accusation of a crime (this case), it's not allowed. We don't just repeat accusations on talk or article space, regardless of sourcing, because BLP applies everywhere, all the time. --DHeyward (talk) 17:14, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You kind of leave out the fact that what the GGC page doesnt allow is a re-re-re-re-re-re-hashing of claims that have been established as FALSE by every reliable sources of the highest quality from the point of time they were first made. Very different circumstances. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Not at all different. The charge that the accused committed rape is false as far as wikipedia policy and the law go. He is innocent as far as writing about him here is concerned. Writing about him here only serves one puprose: to keep those allegations alive because he is not known outside those allegations. As an example, there are plenty of published and reliable sources that go into details concerning Quinn. We don't write about them and it isn't because there are no sources. We make a choice that BLP policy does not allow us to write about her sex life. Likewise, BLP policy does not let us explore unproven allegations against the person here as was apparent in both BLPN discussions and the talk page. What did you think was different or do you think this is about "The Truth(tm)?" --DHeyward (talk) 20:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Again -- just to illustrate the general concept at issue here -- suppose Ozymandias is a living person, and a sculptor has created a statue of him. In an interview about the work, the sculptor refers to her effort to capture his "frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command." Numerous commentators agree that she had well those passions read.

Now, a sneering visage is not a crime but it's generally considered uncomplimentary; it's also now the crux of the notable work of art and of its reception. We could find ourselves in the awkward position of naming the subject if the artist accused him of regrettable traits that are not crimes -- being a cad, being a brute, being a vampire, being a Republican -- but not if she accused him of a crime until and unless the charges are proven, and even if the crime -- revealing secret surveillance, disturbing the peace, resisting arrest -- is considered by some excusable, or justified, or even commendable (cf. Thoreau, Civil Disobedience). What would we do if the allegation concerned something which is culpable but frequently not prosecuted, such as striking someone (for which see Ceci N'est Pas Un Viol)? Again, we risk stumbling into a result which is both ridiculous and, given the press attention Misplaced Pages's missteps on gender are receiving, likely to be ridiculed. I don't know the answer, but I'm confident it's not obvious. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:16, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like "The Zoepost". We could critique it in detail as art. Talk about "Ethics" it brings up. Ignore the vile accusations in the name of covering what the artist/author wanted us to cover. But....let's not. Let's agree that there are aspects of accusation, even in art and literature, that go beyond simple description and venture into defamatory and salacious details that are not necessary to expose in order to highlight the social issues. As an example, "Roe v. Wade" was anonymous with profound impact in society. Is Roe's current view, even if passionate and personal, relevant to the social impact of the case or can we write about it without ever knowing who she was? The art in this case is passionate and socially relevant. It is a notable work with influence. But in the end, that art and its influence doesn't hang on the balance of the accusation. So far, he is innocent of the accusation. In your example, the case would be that the artist accurately captured a "frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command" but we would not say the artist captured "Ozymandias' frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command" especially when reliable sources commented on it before the subject was even known and Ozymandias was not known to anyone outside the artists small circle (i.e. what is Mona Lisa smiling about?). In her Ceci N'est Pas Un Viol, she notes that both actors consented to the acts they portrayed. One actor even portrays what is arguably a rape by a rapist. Does it matter who it is or how convincing his portrayal is or do we accept the fact that he is not a rapist because an authority said he is not? The argument is that he is an actor, therefore it was an act, and consensual, not a rape - case closed. The irony and similarity is not lost on the accuser, whence the name of the piece and the disclaimer. Irony does not mean we are held to different standards after such findings, though. Neither the actor nor the accused can be called "rapists" in Misplaced Pages and insinuating as much misses the foundation of our BLP policy and fundamental "innocent until proven guilty." The accused is not a public figures that had a life notable outside the one-dimensional accusation of rape - it now defines him. We give extreme deference to such individuals but also without condemning their accuser. Consider another case where a woman is raped by "John Doe" and testifies as such at trial. He is convicted but 20 years later is released on DNA evidence that overwhelmingly supports his innocence. Does that have any impact on whether the woman was raped? Nope. Does it mean she perjured herself at trial? Nope. Does it mean the man is innocent of rape? Yes. These seemingly contradictory statements must be portrayed on Misplaced Pages. We do not have to pick a side and we should not try to sway favor in any direction. Above all we should fairly present people, especially non-public figures that are only defined in the public's eye by the accuser, in a non-negative light abdsent a conviction. In this case, the only fair way to present the very notable and multi-dimensional art and artist, is to portray the accused anonymously. There is no way to fairly mention him only in the context of whether he did or did not commit rape. It is not up to the reader to do this, it is up to Misplaced Pages editors to not make Misplaced Pages the vehicle for such judgements. The art is notable, the act of rape, whether true or not is not notable in and of itself. The art is reflection of the experience of the artist and not something we can use to neutrally portray the accused.--DHeyward (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Is this

1. a complaint about differences in applying BLP?
2. a SPA investigation against User:PeterTheFourth?
3. a proxy fight for Gamergate issues?

ForbiddenRocky (talk) 23:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like a rant. Liz 00:21, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi! Thank you for participating! I'm sure you thought your comment was helpful. --DHeyward (talk) 01:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

It's an ANI complaint for edit warring a BLP violation into a specific article talk page and continuing to edit war that BLP violation after the talk page discussion and the two BLPN noticeboard discussions decided BLP applied and the accused should not be named. Three reversions on the talk page, two violation on my talk page and a violation here (and reversion). BLP didn't change. All the other stuff is evidence of PtF being WP:NOTHERE. --DHeyward (talk) 01:28, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Quick question- are you referring to different BLPN discussions than these two? Because the consensus on both of these is that it's fine to mention them on talk, but might be iffy including it in the article without provisos to ensure that he's properly represented. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 01:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like DHeyward's BLP issues has been asked and answered. More than once. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 02:19, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Rocky, I answered it above. No, they have no consensus to add them because the constraints cannot be met. It was listed for you here at the artcile talk page. as to the results from a long time editor of the article. It's why the name no longer exists on hte talk page. --DHeyward (talk) 02:29, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

So (assuming DHeyward's assertion about consensus is correct) there's no consensus, and DHeyward is insisting on his interpretation of BLP (and he's edit warring in the process). Rather than working on consensus. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 02:42, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

No rocky, there is no consensus to add the names in BLPN (as PeterTheFourth claimed) and they placed a large hurdle for BLP at both hearings. The conclusion is that the hurdle can't be met and it is a BLP violation to add it. It's laid out for you by another editor, not me. Have a go at "reading." . In any case, that hurdle prevents using the name except for cases where it's being proposed for addition to the article. That's the purpose of talk pages and it's why the name isn't found in the article or talk page today. --DHeyward (talk) 03:00, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

What I don't see is a consensus to support DHeyward's refactoring. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 03:06, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no edit war on PeterTheFourth's part, if there's no BLP violation. The evidence looks like 1 2 looks like the consensus was there isn't a BLP violation. Which means by going against consensus, DHeyward was the one doing contentious editing. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• As a matter of interest, why have Gamergate editors arrived at Mattress Performance? DHeyward, I was thinking of asking you this on your talk page, but may as well ask here. Sarah (SV) 02:28, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• I presumed they followed me. I didn't edit or comment or revert anything. I came from reviewing legal terms and seeing the incorrect redirect from "reasonable suspicion" to "probable cause." I didn't even know they edited the page before. I certainly didn't ping them or edit anything controversial. --DHeyward (talk) 02:34, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I was looking at ANI for other reasons. I saw familiar names and was wondering what that all was about. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 02:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• DHeyward, I was thinking specifically of you. You were involved in Gamergate and now you're there. It's a concern if those problems are to be transferred somewhere else. Sarah (SV) 02:58, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• Whoa, back up the train. I was not a party to GamerGate and I am rarely an editor there. I have one sanction and that's an IBAN with MarkBernstein but he hasn't edited "mattress". I have not brought gamerGate to mattress. Far from it. PTF edited the mattress talk page 9 minutes after I did. I don't know when he edited it before. Certainly not anything that I commented on or did anything with. I've been here 10 years and have varied interests and articles. I can't stop people from following me. PTF is a gamergate SPA though. his edit history shows it as WP:DUCK.--DHeyward (talk) 03:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

This is my first edit to the talk page, and this is my first edit to the article. I don't believe either of them were 9 minutes after any of your contributions. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 03:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

You can use Editor Interaction Analyzer to figure it out, DHeyward isn't wrong you did edit it once 9 minutes after he did, but it looks like PeterTheFourth started editing there first, so they did not follow DHeyward into the topic. Also, I generally think the name should of the accused should be avoided, on the principle of do-no-harm, but that is not policy and as others have noted the name is available from reliable sources (quick google search shows it in The Guardian, Washington Post, and the National Post.) Strongjam (talk) 03:43, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• DHeyward, you've made 244 edits to Talk:Gamergate controversy, which seems fairly involved. The problem is that we have (I believe) three women on the Mattress talk page and c. 15 men, plus assorted IPs. As a result there has been a locker-room atmosphere at times. Opinion doesn't divide entirely along gender lines, but mostly. Add Gamergate (or even a perception of it) and the number of women will either decline or at least not increase. I would really like to try to avoid that.

I agree with you about the accused's name, by the way, but the name is widely known, so it's not an outing or anything urgent. But I agree that posting it is best avoided. Sarah (SV) 03:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• It's not my intention to drive anyone away. I brought the problem here so it's not on that talk page. My edits to GG talk put me below PtF and I had a 3 month head start in september of last years. there are a myriad of articles they edit as well that are gamergate related that I don't touch including the men's rights nonsense. My only questions was about the BLP and I posted a notice about my edit. --DHeyward (talk) 03:40, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I didn't think it was useful to throw the name into the debate, though. or onto my talk page. I objected to the pointiness of that, but brought it here for resolution. I didn't ask for oversight, just why we were naming him. It is in lots of sources including his lawsuit but, as you said, it's best avoided because it is shaky BLP grounds to portray such a one-dimensional aspect of a living person that isn't notable outside the topic. --DHeyward (talk) 03:40, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Long time editor reports SPA for clear BLP violations and SV shows up to - question the motives of the long time editor - my my. This certainly narrows the list of potential sockmasters. - 46.28.50.100 (talk) 03:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Completely uninvolved editor here, this item just caught my eye because I'm getting a bit concerned about lack of care taken with BLPs. I only know about this incident what I've been able to glean from a quick read of the article and an even quicker skim of the talk page and this report. My thoughts on this matter are:
- BLP applies to all living persons, therefore it also applies to Sulkowicz. That means editors must not state that the complaint was false until it is actually proven false - not just "not responsible". Suggest "disputed", or at the very most, "unsubstantiated".
- What about this incident makes it more notable than all the other alleged rapes that are reported every day? If it's just the performance art piece, then write the article about the art piece and prune all the extraneous 'he said, she said' from it as it is of no lasting importance to the art world.
- Court cases appear to still be ongoing, so perhaps editors should wait until there's an actual judicial finding.
- What encyclopaedic purpose does it serve to name the alleged rapist? If in doubt - don't. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Daveosaurus, thanks for making those points. In fact there are five people to whom BLP applies: the accused and four people who say they were assaulted: Sulkowicz, two other women and a man. We have editors saying or implying that the last four are lying, and that Sulkowicz may have broken the law by filing a false police complaint. In addition, there has been a locker-room atmosphere on talk guaranteed to drive most women (and not only women) away. Sarah (SV) 01:00, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Good points. I am not subtle and don't pick up much on atmosphere; what I think that article needs is substantial application of the proverbial blue pencil to prune it down to something worthy of being in an encyclopaedia. I don't think it's actually a BLP violation to name the alleged rapist (his name appears in reliable sources); it's just unnecessary (and also unnecessary is the edit-warring over it). The most egregious BLP violation I see on the page is against Sulkowicz, in the repetition of a borderline defamatory claim from an anonymously published source. I also see BLP violations against Sulkowicz in this discussion, here (flat-out stating that the allegation was false) and here (apparently satirical, but a statement such as that in this context is so outright offensive that it really shouldn't have been made, even as satire). Daveosaurus (talk) 08:07, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I cannot see any reason to name the target of this accusation (who is not notable for any other reason), let alone to continually re-add the name when others rightly point out that it has no place in the article. DHeyward was right to refactor it and PeterTheFourth ought to at the very least be warned against future BLP violations of this sort. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 16:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Also completely uninvolved, and I agree with the two statements above.

I would add: these days, at least in the US, there is often a media climate around rape cases of "guilty unless proved innocent," rather than "innocent until proven guilty." Alleged victims cannot be named, while alleged perpetrators are frequently named. Now, for the record, so that PtF doesn't get the wrong idea: I don't, for even a minute, (a) suggest that such an approach is entirely unjustified, nor (b) that alleged perpetrators aren't frequently guilty. But that setup does give a person an opportunity to accuse a person on page one, ruining the perpetrator's life; if a charge proves unfounded, the reporting of that goes to the "back pages," and the perpetrator's life is still ruined. But such machinations are for the news media, not for an encyclopedia.

For that reason alone, an encyclopedia like this needs to make no assumptions whatsoever on anything until jurisprudence is finished. And that means no names for now.

If you don't like that, PtF, go to Wikinews. It is, in principle, a media outlet, and may have different rules on such issues. I don't know. But you just can't do this here. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:21, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes! all of those professional victims - everywhere! If one believed even a tenth of them, why this would be a Rape Culture we are living in. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:17, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand in what context I was using the accused's name, StevenJ81. I was never advocating for its use in the article. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 21:42, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for not yelling, and not being sarcastic, like the previous poster. I really didn't deserve that.

No, I understand you're mainly talking about the talk page. But really, there is no reason you can't use substitute terminology (like "the accused") even on the talk page. I even appreciate that it's not rocket science to figure out who "the accused" (or "the alleged perpetrator" or whatever terminology you want to use) is, even if you know nothing about the case prior. But IMO, there is nothing gained from actually using the name, other than the relief of awkward verbiage/sentence construction. And there are many good reasons to hold off on using the name, for any reason, until the judicial process has run its course. Once the judicial process has run its course, either (a) he's guilty, his name will be out there, and he will have to live with it, or (b) he's not guilty, and deserves his privacy and reputation intact. That will all be soon enough. No need to rush now. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate the concern and the attitude of staying cautious. In other situations, I would agree with not using the name of an alleged criminal in any context. However, I think that when the accused gives interviews and readily identifies as that person to media, it becomes absurd to insist on 'he who must not be named'-esque redactions of that name when discussing him- which is what DHeyward was edit warring to enact. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 00:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

, let's be clear. In your accusation of "edit warring", I made one (1) revert (please provide diffs of more reverts if you continue the accusation). Then I came here. Two different editors either made modifications or completed the redaction on the talk page based on consensus. You deliberately reverted three times on that page to restore the BLP violation and repeated it twice on my talk page after being asked to stop. My one revert has been backed by consensus is hardly edit warring and we are here precisely because I wasn't going to edit war on an article talk page - as it stands, your comments on the article talk page are redacted but not by me. --DHeyward (talk) 01:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Peter, thank you for speaking civilly. DHeyward, keep cool. I'll respond, then I won't have more to say. Peter, the most I could say about your comment two points up is that if I happened upon that talk page, and nobody were fighting, I might not bother trying to invoke a BLP violation and redaction a priori. (Not sure, actually, but might not.) After all, as you say, the accused has gone public. That having been said, my practice, both here and in my personal (real) life, is not to use names in a situation like that. If I had written it myself, I would personally have He who must not be named it. And if anyone (like DHeyward) chooses to invoke BLP and redaction in this situation, they are really entirely justified in doing so, all the more so because they have CONSENSUS on their side. Even if there is a little space to think about leniency in a case like this, I think it's very bad precedent to do so. It's far better to err on the other side. So I'd really like to urge you to leave the name out and move on. StevenJ81 (talk) 02:01, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

The BLP aspect is a bit overblown (the info is public in multiple RS's) but PeterTheFourth's edit warring was quite inappropriate and there's no obvious encyclopedic upside to including the person's name on the talk page. So it's better to just defer to people's sensibilities and leave it out, instead of wp:battling over whether it's permissible to keep it in. Re SlimVirgin's complaint of a locker-room atmosphere on the talkpage, I do see some crappy attempts to litigate the disputed facts there, but it's mostly from other editors than PeterTheFourth. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 05:09, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

False information about Larry Silverstein

I need an administrator asap! I was looking at mobile Misplaced Pages, and I was looking at Larry Silverstein, and it said that "In May of 2013, Larry and his pal Tom, confessed to the implosion of the WTC, and were later sentenced to multiple life terms in prison" You can see the image here. This is vandalism mostly likely from a "Truther", I am not sure how to fix that subtitle, but somebody who knows how to needs to as soon as possible. Thanks. CookieMonster755 19:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't appear to be Mobile Misplaced Pages. Are you looking at a mirror site, maybe, or using a third-party app? HiDrNick! 19:37, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

It's the Misplaced Pages app, and I'm seeing the same thing but I can't work out why, it doesn't appear to be in the article or its recent history... Sam Walton (talk) 19:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The text isn't showing up in the article, but in the search results blurb. It's got to be a caching issue someplace, but no idea where or how to fix. I looked through the article history and that text wasn't from any of the more recent changes. Very odd...Ravensfire (talk) 19:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, C.Fred found it just as I did. Sam Walton (talk) 19:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The scary part is just how long that vandalism had been sitting in the description there. —C.Fred (talk) 19:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Is it better now? I just changed something (at 19:50 UTC); I think it's fixed. —C.Fred (talk) 19:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That's rather sneaky. Good to know about where the search blurb comes from though! Ravensfire (talk) 19:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Wow, that's just awesome. So now you don't have to vandalize Misplaced Pages . §FreeRangeFrog 20:12, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The worst part is that this material was added in May 2013 and existed for over 2 years before being changed today. Liz 21:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The neat part about this is that because the data was exposed in something that is more user-facing than Wikidata itself, the problem got fixed. Wikis Work. --Izno (talk) 22:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So how many admins are there at Wikidata and Meta, cos they're workload may wll be going up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nthep (talk • contribs) 14:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

wikidata and meta. But admins just wield the ban hammer, they aren't really required for patrol work of course —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:23, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The less neat part is that it took over two years for the problem to be fixed... Sam Walton (talk) 09:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Subject of Article asked fans to upload "funny" picture of himself for use in an article; kosher to do?

Tipped off by a thread post on 4chan (can't link to direct post because 4chan is blacklisted by Misplaced Pages), Jeph Jacques asked his Twitter followers to upload a pic of him after chasing a chicken. Is this allowed, or did it violate some Misplaced Pages rule? I don't think it's a COI conflict, but at worse, maybe vandalism? But then again, it was sanctioned by the subject of said article? I dunno, this just looks fishy. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 19:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

It's fine, they released the image under a Creative Commons license. Sam Walton (talk) 19:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

And it's better to have a more current picture. Weegeerunner 19:32, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, just wanted to be sure. Thanks. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 20:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Just a point: a newer picture is better all other things being equal. If the newer picture doesn't give the reader a good representation of what the subject looks like, than a picture which does is preferable, even if it's older. BMK (talk) 22:03, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree with BMK here...a newer photo is not necessarily a better photo. The new image was a rather bad selfie, and, I should point out, was licensed as CC-by-NC by Jacques. It wouldn't have been acceptable anyway. — Huntster (t @ c) 11:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Block evasion

I'm 100% convinced that 101.160.12.43 is blocked user Shagadelicbasil23. The IP's edits are exclusively cricket tournaments and the 2015 AFL season, which SB23 focused all of his time. He then posted (and was blocked as) Sportseditor123. The IP address is located in Melbourne, which is where SB23 is from. It's raining ducks right now and the umpires have called for the covers to be brought on. Also pinging @Joseph2302: and @PeeJay2K3:. Thanks. Lugnuts 07:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear-cut to me. The guy is clearly a bit of a Wiki-obsessive and won't learn to play nicely with others. – PeeJay 09:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I filed an SPI at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Shagadelicbasil23, my evidence for it is there; I'm aware you can't checkuser an IP address, per WP:OUTING. Their edits are on the same pages (AFL and current cricket series/tournaments), and they're making lots of consecutive, small edits, all of which are tagged as "Mobile edit, Mobile web edit"- the only person involved in cricket articles whose edits tag with these is Shagadelicbasil23. Also, @Flickerd: because you asked me about this on my talkpage yesterday.

To me, it's definitely the same person- and they definitely don't want to collaborate with anyone again. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

This says it's definitely them- only Shagadelicbasil23 ever updated scorecards too early (e.g. at drinks breaks). Joseph2302 (talk) 10:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

As an aside: WP:OUTING does not prohibit use of checkuser on an IP address. Checkusers are generally very cautious with the relationship between IPs and named accounts, but it's not forbidden by policy, and nor should it be. bobrayner (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The privacy policy, not OUTING, dictates Checkusers' methodology wrt IP addresses, though in practice if the abuse is severe or serious enough (think sustained harassment or non-blustery threats) they will link accounts to IPs. Otherwise, though, no dice. —Jeremy v^_^v 18:52, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Joseph. Lugnuts 10:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Furthermore, I've been heavily involved in editing the 2015 AFL season. SB23 would often input the crowd when it was announced and would add the final score within seconds of the games finishing. The IP address did the same for the Queen's Birthday match, see 1 and 2. They were also tagged with Mobile edit, Mobile web edit, the edits were in quick succession, and they've also done null edits, see 3. It is very clear to me that it is the same person. Flickerd (talk) 12:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Copyright issues at the Sandbox?

This has been going on at the sandbox for probably close to a week that I have noticed it from a series of apparently dynamic IP addresses. Is there perhaps a copyright violation of someone's thesis or something that needs to be done? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

At least a few revisions there seem to have been copied from this forum. I'm trying to find some more copyvios and will revdel where applicable. De728631 (talk) 18:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

And here's the paper being quoted in various stages: . Anyhow, this should not remain in our sandbox. De728631 (talk) 18:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:50, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted that Coperincus7777 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) appears to be involved in this scheme . De728631 (talk) 19:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Argh. What makes it even more difficult is that the IP user kept making multiple edits until any another account happened to clear the sandbox, and I can only hide 6 consecutive edits of this kind without getting a database error. I revdel'ed a fair bit of these edits but this goes back to May at least.

Hi, someone has made it so that I cannot enter the posts that I have created in the sand box, under history. Please, allow me to enter or give me a reason? I saw a reason that I was violating copyright but these do not contain any copyright problem, that are past "fair use".

cur | prev) 19:56, 9 June 2015‎ 137.150.100.205 (talk)‎ . . (117,630 bytes) (+445)‎

(cur | prev) 19:49, 9 June 2015‎ 137.150.100.205 (talk)‎ . . (117,185 bytes) (+195)‎

(cur | prev) 19:47, 9 June 2015‎ 137.150.100.205 (talk)‎ . . (116,990 bytes) (-567)‎ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.150.100.205 (talk)

Copying the entirety of a website is not "fair use", it's a copyright violation, see WP:COPYVIO. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:33, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Misplaced Pages has very strict definitions for fair use, and posting entire papers or whole paragraphs is not allowed. Fair use at Misplaced Pages is only allowed in the context of articles, and "excessively long copyrighted excerpts" are strictly unacceptable. Your edits have been hidden so that the copyrighted material can no longer be accessed. Please note also that the Misplaced Pages sandbox is meant for practising how to write articles at Misplaced Pages, but it is not your personal desktop. De728631 (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

And note also that Misplaced Pages's non-free content criteria are more strict than fair use under US copyright law.--ukexpat (talk) 12:26, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

They are back . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:22, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

IP rang block needed

The IP posts at User talk:Alex Bakharev (mostly in Russian, but sometimes in English). The posts contain harassment of me and another user and promises to "tell all the truth about me" (to Jimmy, and also to publish an article, since the IP claims they are a journalist). Today I blocked four different IPs. They have a pretty long history of harassment, and they posted earlier on my talk page and on my talk page on Commons, but this is really becomes annoying (now they posted "the last warning" to me). I would appreciate a block range if possible. Thank you. (Alex objects to protecting his talk page, and he seems to be offline).--Ymblanter (talk) 18:50, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• If an editor's final comment before being blocked is a "last warning", then he at least got something right. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've put a couple of rangeblocks in place. Let me know if further IPs appear. Black Kite (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

  Thank you.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

  They continued immediately, calling you a vandal.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

  Nice of them to give me a range for that one. Blocked as well. Black Kite (talk) 19:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

  Thanks again. Probably we will hear again of them soon.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

IPv6 range block needed

So far we've got

• 2600:1014:b00b:c07:0:44:abfd:9d01
• 2600:1014:b056:9eba:0:48:ac72:fd01
• 2600:1014:b00e:c8ab:0:3e:5336:fb01
• 2600:1014:b052:5dfe:0:48:ac6d:7601

There's instructions at MediaWiki but they might as well be in Japanese for all the good they do me. Thanks, -- Diannaa (talk) 05:33, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks like 2600:1014:b000::/33, although any admin applying this will want to double-check this. I forget how difficult IPv6 are to calculate! In any case, this is a rather large range, so this is likely to have too much collateral. Mdann52 (talk) 08:28, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Simplified you can say: The first 3 groups separated by : identify the ISP, the next group of numbers is any segmentation inside the ISP (sometimes customers get a partial block of this), and the last 4 groups are the device part. Then :: or :0: means: "do padding with zero's here until it's a full address".

A single ISP can have 65,535 subnets each with over 18-quintillion (18 with 18 zeros after it) devices. In general you would never want to range block anything where the first three groups are not equal to each other, because those could be multiple ISPs. So ranges smaller than /48 are a no no.. A single subscriber is a /64 at minimum, but often a /56 and in theory can be an entire /48. It really depends on the ISP, so it's difficult to know for sure. Start careful.. this table helps visualize it a bit. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 09:14, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

this is a very useful website for calculating IP ranges, just stick them in and it gives you the notation required. Sam Walton (talk) 09:21, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

What, an IPv6 calculator? I'm saved :P Mdann52 (talk) 09:32, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, thank goodness. I've been looking for one of these since our rangeblock tool died. KrakatoaKatie 01:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• This is a /41 range on Verizon mobile, so far too much collateral to block, although it's tempting. When this particular individual turned up the other day, we just used semi-protection until they got bored. Children are very soon bored when they have their toys taken away. Black Kite (talk) 09:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks all for the help. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:58, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Note: The user has continued at User talk:AGK and User talk:Geraldo Perez, and User talk:Courcelles. Based on their claimed identity, this is the same user that had several named accounts and IPs blocked within the last week or two. I've been using WP:RBI - although they are under the mistaken notion that block evasion is permitted to troll Arbcom member pages. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:28, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• • Black Kite, you can check for collateral damage here for all contribs this year. Here is the narrowed search since April 1 til today. I looked at it yesterday (discussed here) and I stated "If nothing else, shutting that range down to quash that puppet might be worth it so that he grows bored and goes away." so I concur that this may be worthwhile to calculate a rangeblock to snub him as he is dominating that range. And active since last January.
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Religion in the PSR of Albania

The article affected was: People's Socialist Republic of Albania

Recently, there has been an edit war in this article. The reason was a dispute between what should appear in the country's infobox entry on religion. I think that it should appear, as it has done until a week ago, Religion: None (State atheism). However, there is another user, User:Guy Macon, that thinks that the religion entry should be removed. The consensus they base their edits upon is one reached in Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion. Since the PSR of Albania was not an individual, I don't think that resolution applies here, since a person's view on religion is very different from a country's official position on it. To begin with, it is important that the PSR of Albania was state atheist. The infobox should reflect that. How? I think the best way was the former one. I am concerned that if the entry on religion is removed, people won't know if it was state atheist, or just that we forgot to add that information, or maybe that we just don't know.

--WBritten (talk) 09:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

From the closing admin (Guy) -- no relation other than us both having really cool names:

"The result is unambiguously in favour of omitting the parameter altogether for "none", "atheist", "secular" and variants thereof - i.e. those who either do not identify as religious, or who explicitly identify as non-religious. In response to the additional point raised below, there's no obvious reason why this would not apply to historical or fictional characters, institutions etc. If people really think they should be considered separately then feel free to start an additional RfC but this one provides ample grounds for deprecating the religion parameter in regard to secular / atheist philosophy in any article, because the arguments would be identical in each case." (some emphasis added, some is in the original).

"In any article" seems pretty clear to me. --Guy Macon (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I still think that it should be stated in the infobox that Albania was state atheist. It's a relevant fact. WBritten (talk) 10:41, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Is the official Albanian state hobby "Not Collecting Stamps"? -Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 11:06, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

We are talking about the PSR of Albania, which stopped existing in 1992. In their constitution it was stated that Albania had no official religion. It later pursued state atheist policies, and mosques, churches, and synagogues were used as schools, gymnasiums, libraries... This is why I think that the infobox was right. It said that the PSR of Albania had no official religion (Religion:None), and at the same time added that state atheism was enforced. Nowhere in the infobox it was stated that atheism was the official religion (because it is not a religion, to begin with). WBritten (talk) 11:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Was the official Albanian state hobby "Not Collecting Stamps"? Genuine question. -Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 11:35, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The PSR of Albania had no official state hobby. --WBritten (talk) 11:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

By the same token, it had no official state religion. -Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 11:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The Islamic Republic of Iran (for example) has no official state hobby, but does have an official state religion.--WBritten (talk) 17:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the actual answer here, and the "Not Collecting Stamps" thing is a valid point. But surely the question should be whether Albania simply had no official religion or whether it was officially atheist, and those are two very different positions (the former is equivalent to not collecting stamps, but the latter would be the equivalent of antiphilatelism). I don't know the answer, but that seems to me to be the question. Mr Potto (talk) 11:52, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you. But the reason I am so persistent is because the PSR of Albania was officially state atheist. That's why that was reflected in the infobox in the first place. It wasn't simply a non-denominational country, it was an atheist state, and actively fought against religious institutions. WBritten (talk) 12:01, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not see that the results of the RfC, which focussed explicitly on articles about individual persons, have any direct and automatic applicability on the article on a state. There are no doubt very good reasons for generally omitting that parameter on most individual people, just as there are no doubt good arguments for omitting it on many states. However, whether or not the well-known policies of socialist Albania, which were not merely non-religious but quite explicitly anti-religious, are notable and salient enough as a character trait of that state to justify inclusion in the box, is a matter of editorial decision that ought to be decided through open discussion on the talkpage. I notice that there actually has been some reasonable talk there. There definitely can't be any justification for the type of edit-warring that has been going on. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:06, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

"State atheism" is a very nebulous concept and doesn't belong in the infobox. The German Democratic Republic was officially atheist, and one might find citation that say that atheism was enforced by the State. The truth is somewhat different: Religious people were not admitted to the leading party (SED), were not promoted in their jobs, if they got a good job outside the churches. On the other side, both Catholic and Lutheran churches remained open, some people (about 1 or 2 % of the population) went there to celebrate the Mass, and church dignitaries were used in inofficial diplomatic negotiations as intermediaries. Under the circumstances, it is better to remove the parameter from the infobox, cease the edit war, discuss what exactly happened at the time in Albania (a content dispute, possibly) and then re-evaluate the facts according to the closing statement of the RfC: "...In response to the additional point raised below, there's no obvious reason why this would not apply to historical or fictional characters, institutions etc. If people really think they should be considered separately then feel free to start an additional RfC but this one provides ample grounds for deprecating the religion parameter in regard to secular / atheist philosophy in in any article, because the arguments would be identical in each case..." (which extends the validity of the closure to states and countries, stating a good reason) and "Another issue is noted: those who prominently self-identify as having a philosophical position on religion, but one which implicitly or explicitly rejects faith. In these cases in my view it may be legitimate to mention secularism or atheism as a philosophy, and that would have qualified support according to the debate, but it is clear that they are not religions and it is both confusing and technically incorrect to label them as such." The question is then "Did the PSR Albania introduce a religious system to be used to oppress the previous existing religions, or did they State maintain a philosophical/sociological position to reject religion officially? If it was the former, the name of the new (pseudo-)religion could be mentioned, if it was the latter, the closure of the Rfc sustains omitting the parameter. Kraxler (talk) 14:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why state atheism doesn't belong in the infobox. It needs to be there so people know two things: 1) That the PSR of Albania had no official religion (like many countries today), and 2) That state atheism was enforced. If you want the facts, state atheism was actively pursued especially during the Cultural and Ideological Revolution of 1967. I think that if we remove the parameter from the infobox, readers of that article won't know that the PSR of Albania was state atheist, and may be think that it was just like any other country, or even that we don't know what its official religion was. The position of the PSR of Albania was not only philosophical/sociological. It was a political position. That's why I think it should be included. Maybe we could have an alternate parameter in the infobox, like "Stance on religion: state atheist" or something along those lines. I still think that in no way did the former infobox claim that atheism was a religion, and I'd bet that most readers of that article understood that the official stance on religion of the PSR of Albania was state atheism. It was not a new religion, it was not a pseudo-religion. It was a state policy, proclaimed and actively pursued by the government. --WBritten (talk) 17:35, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Fut.Perf., as far as I can tell, your opinion on the content dispute (or mine, or WBritten's, or Kraxler's, etc. ) is completely irrelevant, especially considering that ANI is supposed to deal with user behavior, not article content disputes. This content dispute has been settled already. I posted an RfC. I asked for and got an uninvolved and experienced administrator to write a closing summary and close the RfC. I specifically asked the closing admin to specify whether I needed to post another RfC for fictional characters, dead people, schools, nations, political parties, etc. (just the ones that contain "religion = None" or something synonymous in the infobox), and was told that there was no need to do that, and that the RfC applies to all articles. I believe that I did everything correctly.

On a related note, I just got the following notice on my talk page: I have never edited the Balkans page itself, so I assume that this concerns People's Socialist Republic of Albania. If so, could we please post a notice on that article's talk page? I generally limit myself to 1RR and to uncontroversial edits on articles with discretionary sanctions, but I was not aware that People's Socialist Republic of Albania was under DS.

As long as the can of worms is open and we are discussing the article content dispute, here is how I think religion on pages about countries should be approached. I think it should be treated the way we treat it at England#Religion. That page gives the reader a true understanding of the religion in that geographic area in a way that no one-line infobox entry every could. Would the encyclopedia be improved if we listed "Religion = Anglicanism" in the infobox at England to match the body of the article, which says "The established church of the realm is Anglicanism"? I think not.

BTW, in case anyone missed the main point, Atheism (including state atheism) is not a religion. Bald is not a hair color. Off is not a TV channel. Barefoot is not a shoe. Silence is not a sound. Never is not a date. Clear is not a color. "Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby." --Penn Jillette

Also, for those who REALLY don't get the point, putting X after the "Religion =" in an infobox is claiming that X is a religion. Atheism (including state atheism) is not a religion. Trying to get around it by saying "Religion = None (X)" does not change this. That was the clear consensus from the RfC. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:18, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

If this is what the admins ruled, I'll have to comply. However, I think that "Religion:None (state atheism)" did make it clear. If the consensus is to remove it, so be it. But, since it's an important fact (for this and many other state atheist countries), what do you think about including an alternative parameter in the infobox, like "Stance on religion: state atheist"? WBritten (talk) 18:29, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

My opinion is that this is not what infoboxes are for. Anything that cannot be completely and uncontroversially summarized in a word or two should be in the article and not the infobox. I realize that you believe that anything important should be in the infobox, but this has come up again and again rewarding a wide number of parameters and the community has always decided that the standard for inclusion in an infobox is not importance, but rather lack of needed explanation and lack of subtle details. Things like birth dates, college degrees, maiden name, etc.

Getting back to the point, you have reported me at ANI. Please present evidence that I have misbehaved or withdraw your ANI report. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:59, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

There shouldn't be any controversy about this. The old infobox presented information in a neutral way. I don't think the consensus reached can't be applied here, since state atheism is important enough to be highlighted in the infobox. You misbehaved by removing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WBritten (talk • contribs) 21:30, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Good luck with that. I behaved entirely properly. I posted an RfC, waited for an admin to close it, and followed the instructions in the closing statements.

Regarding Future Perfect's accusation of edit warring, here is a timeline.

• April 2007 Article created with "religion = declared atheist state" in the infobox.
• December 2012 changed to "religion = None (State atheism)"
• 04:25, 02 June 2015 Guy Macon removes the religion entry.
• 05:16, 02 June 2015 124.148.222.41 reverts 1RR
• 09:14, 02 June 2015 Guy Macon reverts 1RR
• 10:17, 02 June 2015 WBritten reverts 1RR
• 17:56, 09 June 2015 RfC closed with closing summary saying it applies to all articles.
• 09:45, 10 June 2015 Guy Macon reverts per result of RfC 1RR
• 22:10, 10 June 2015 WBritten reverts 1RR
• 22:16, 10 June 2015 WBritten posts to Guy Macon's talk page, Guy Macon noves it to article talk.
• 02:31, 11 June 2015 Guy Macon replies on article talk page
• 02:31, 11 June 2015 Guy Macon reverts per result of RfC 2RR
• 09:41, 11 June 2015 WBritten replies on article talk page
• 09:51, 11 June 2015 WBritten posts to ANI

So, nobody went past 2RR. As I mentioned before, if there had been a talk page notice letting me know I was editing an article under discretionary sanctions, I would have limited myself to 1RR as is my standard practice. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:14, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Disturbing edits by user:Schaengel

Collapsed 2 images. Which photo is better is a content dispute which should be dealt with on the article talk page, not here. BMK (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Schaengel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) declares articels of Koblenz to his property and reverts my replacement of this high quality image File:Koblenz - Basilika St. Kastor Westfassade.jpg of Basilica of St. Castor and supplyes instead this two images of him (File:Koblenz_im_Buga-Jahr_2011_-_Basilika_St_Kastor_01.jpg and File:Koblenz_im_Buga-Jahr_2011_-_Basilika_St_Kastor_02.jpg. This is not only an content dispute because Schaengel refuses a factual discussion and reverts me in all wikpedia projects. Very poor behaviour and at expense of the article quality of the illustration. On German wikipedia a admin has already rebuked his notorious editwar behaviour. --– Wladyslaw (talk) 17:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• You need to provide more diffs of him reverting you here, or other behavior. The images you provided could be argued either way. As for other Misplaced Pages projects, that is outside the scope of the English Misplaced Pages, we have no authority there. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The diffs you can see if you look at his contribs, but ok. He reverted me in four articels , , , , some also twice. The reverts in other WP projects are not to punish here but show the range of his behaviour. Schaengel is not willing to argue, either in the German Misplaced Pages (home) nor here. So this is a real problem. The replaced images are from many objective standards very high level compared to his images, he will notoriously save for "his" Koblenz articels. --84.174.225.45 (talk) 17:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC) // forgotten to login --– Wladyslaw (talk) 17:52, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• Again, we don't care about the German Misplaced Pages. Most of us don't speak enough German to use the evidence anyway as we would have no context. As for the reverts here, you both have been reverting each other. I haven't seen where you have once approached them on the talk page of the articles. Before coming to ANI, you have to attempt a dialog with them. ANI is the last resort, not the first. At this stage, it is nothing but a content dispute, verging on an edit war in some areas, and no one has tried to discuss yet. We do NOT settle content disputes at ANI, ever. Go discuss first. WP:BRD is a good read for both of you. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:01, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Dennis, that's a little parochial, and we do have some people here who know some German. While it is true that behavior on dewiki is beyond our authority, if there have been sanctions against him there, that is legitimate for this wiki to use as corroborating evidence of a pattern of behavior. Wladyslaw, it would help if you added a link to any formal sanctions or rebuke on dewiki. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but what exactly is the problem? The diff links of his revert took place here at en.wiki not at de.wiki. He is not willing to argue with me. So if you don't think that his behaviour at en.wiki is harmfull I am very surprised. --– Wladyslaw (talk) 18:09, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

That said, Wladyslaw, you do have to try to engage him on the talk page(s) explicitly first, as Dennis has said. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Please look here (do not editwar, use the discussion page, Schaengel reverts all over all wikipedia projects to save "his" images, next revert and I will tell this to an admin), I already pleased him to use the talk page, without positive result. He reverted me again. --– Wladyslaw (talk) 18:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

As I read it, Wladyslaw is saying "he's causing problems here , just like he did at de:wp". He doesn't seem to be asking for sanctions based on Schaengel's actions at de:wp. Nyttend (talk) 18:36, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Having looked at the diffs that Wladyslaw links, together with their page histories, I agree with his assessment of the situation. It looks like Schaengel's acting to protect his image from getting replaced — other than reverting people who remove his image, he's not made any edits since May, so I'm confident that he's not explained himself anywhere or attempted to discuss on a talk page. Moreover, he's reverted an IP address, too; while it may be Wladyslaw's, judging by the similarity between it and Wladyslaw's 84.174.225.45 up above (also note that Wladyslaw and Taxiarchos are the same person), it's clearly not a case of him stalking Wladyslaw: he's simply acting to protect his image. Finally, Wladyslaw stopped after one reversion on most of these pages, and Schaengel's version is the current one on all of these pages (except Koblenz, where another user restored Wladyslaw's), so I think we ought not consider him guilty of edit-warring. I've left Schaengel a final warning for ownership on top of the warning for edit-warring that someone else already left for him. Nyttend (talk) 18:51, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Let me write more carefully, Wladyslaw. Nobody here is saying that what the other user was doing here was right. One question here is: are you responding in the right way? Or is what you're doing just as much a problem?

• You cannot rely on edit summaries to ask the other user to talk to you. You have to go to the appropriate talk page and open a discussion there. And you have to notify the other user of the discussion, either with a ping, or preferably with a note on the user's talk page. Until you do those things, we can't help you here.
• Dennis suggests that you read WP:BRD for further information about that. I agree.

If you've done all that, you can come back for help.

• What Dennis was saying is that we do not impose sanctions on users because they also behave badly on other wikis.
• My response to him was that behavior on other wikis can be used as a factor when we impose sanctions on users because they behave badly here.

But we can't do any of this until you go through the steps I said above. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

StevenJ81, please note that Wladyslaw already tried to engage at Commons: see the page history of Commons:User talk:Schaengel. Schaengel's response? Simple reversion. This is not someone who's interested in collegial editing: it's someone who doesn't want his image to be removed, to the extent that he'll oppose the other guy's featured picture nomination when everyone else is supporting it. When someone's doing the same thing across nine WMF wikis, and someone addresses it on one, there's no need to address it on any of the other eight. When you edit-war on nine wikis, and you reject discussion when asked, it's clear that you'll not stop unless you get your way or unless you're forced to stop. Nyttend (talk) 18:59, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'll wait a few days if Schaengel is writing s.th. at the talk pages. Weegeerunner already reverted him in one of the four articels. If he didn't bring s.th. reasonable against my image proposal I will replace the images as I already did today. If Schaengel will revert me again I'll tell you again and than it's clearly again what is clearly (for me) already now, that Schaengel only will force his "ownership" on the articles. Thank to all for your help. --– Wladyslaw (talk) 18:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, @Nyttend. I don't actually disagree with you, but on a technical issue Dennis is right. We technically can't act here because of behavior there, if you will. Once Wladyslaw makes a single, by-the-book effort to engage Schaengel here, it becomes much easier to add in Schaengel's behavior everywhere else to throw the book at him. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Agree with your first statement, but not with your conclusions. The parties have already interacted in a public manner; requiring interaction here before sanctions would be rather excessively bureaucratic when the guy's pretty obviously breaking our policies and demonstrated his disinterest in collegial editing. Schaengel has been edit-warring and demonstrating page ownership here, to an extent that ignoring his current warnings will mean that he deserves to be blocked. Nyttend (talk) 19:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, you're allowed to make that call. I'm not. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

And, let me add, then we could probably go to the stewards and establish a cross-wiki sanction, too. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I can´t believe what I read here. The wikipedia really doesn´t need any autors anymore. I will consider to leave, I can´t be part of such less esteem in my article work. --Schaengel (talk) 19:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to avoid misunderstanding. My intention wasn't that Schaengel will be punished. I guess the words of many users here had stopped his notorious reverts. Maybe he had a bad day and I will not overrate his behaviour. My proposal to Schaengel: switch off the PC, I will not revert you and not edit in "your" articels. Take a break and return in a few days and will find a solution. But this assumes that your are willing. I hope you understand this and will not be miffed. Maybe we can close this for today. This should be uptaken as assistance and good will. It's up to you if you revert this and leave or take part in a matter that is ruled and suggested to have a good basic. --– Wladyslaw (talk) 19:33, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

If it cant get any worser, then there is the last kick off ... please stop talking so much sh... --Schaengel (talk) 19:36, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, it was my last but serious try. If collaborative work and discourse is "shit" in your feeling I have n.th. to say anymore here. Really breathtaking crude aspects of you. If you are not willing to discuss you have to leave. In this case your work and participation here can only be due to a big misunderstanding of the project scopes. --– Wladyslaw (talk) 19:44, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh I know that I am right. Its a big show what are you doing here at all channels, and most of the time you are talking with yourself. The german wikipedia looses so much authors ... now you know why. --Schaengel (talk) 19:46, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't talk to myself, I make documentation of the reasons for the image replacement I did. And you inculpated my to be not polite to you because I did't talk to you. Now I am talking and try to make reasonable why I repleced the pictures and all this is also not right to you. Did you really know what you want? The fading of authors is a complex problem that has multiple reasons. It has so multiple reasons that one person by oneself can't be responsible for that. Not even you that exhibit a very dubious behaviour. – Wladyslaw (talk) 19:54, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

No you tend your ego. Thats why your are playing this big show, thats why you need an award for every of your photos. This is so embarrassing. --Schaengel (talk) 19:57, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

A good question is also: why didn't you revert Weegeerunner but only me and why did you revert me all over all wikipedia projects? This I call a big show. Now your true face come out and the level of your input here is falling down to personal insults. I think the time is good now to make come true what you have already announced. Goodbye. – Wladyslaw (talk) 20:01, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Beside of this: no, I don't need an award of all my images. The fact is: I have donated far more then 6000 images and many articles. Only a small quote of the images may receive an award. There are photographers that are much more better than I am and they have many more awards I ever will receive. But out of your words it seems that there is speaking enviousness and distrust. Do you really need to act so? This is really embarrassing. – Wladyslaw (talk) 20:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

@Nyttend: At this point you certainly have my support for whatever sanctions you deem appropriate to impose. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• Again, you haven't discussed the images on the talk page, you've only talked passed each other and about each other here. Fortunately, Taxiarchos228/Wladyslaw has started a discussion at Talk:Basilica of St. Castor, and I would strongly suggest Schaengel join in that discussion, as the issue appears to be a legitimate one. Not doing so and going back and starting to revert again and again....THEN we have the basis for edit warring / disruptive behavior, and at that point, valid authority to take action to prevent disruption. Schaengel, I just started a new essay due to another editor, but it would equally apply to you: WP:ENGAGE. I think it might be worth a read. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:26, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Future Perfect at Sunrise archiving threads with ongoing discussions and making threats of sanctions

Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs) hatted my last item on the Gamergate controversy talk page after only a few hours. When I asked them the appropriate steps to reverse that decision and made my case for them to reverse theirs, instead of responding to any of my questions, they simply threatened me with sanctions if I pursued the matter further. I've been notified many editors have been sanctioned on that article, so I dropped it. Today I found an egregious case of editorializing in the article with text that is not supported and brought it to the talk page. Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise immediately showed up to comment, condescendingly told me that editorializing articles is 'called writing' and 'that is what we do here' and threatened to hat my discussion, before any discussion took place -- and I expect it will indeed be hatted shortly.

I'm aware it's only an essay but WP:DAOHATTHOD gives my argument against these actions very well. Stifling discussion is not productive. It's the opposite of productive, actually.

I would ask this editor to either voluntarily cease hatting my discussions and threatening me with sanctions for engaging in discussions, or I would ask them to be prevented from doing so if they will not do so voluntarily Handpolk (talk) 11:27, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest that a truly neutral reading of the 38 pages of repetitious "discussions" about the same well-worn topics is decidedly NOT something that puts "more discussion about the same topics" as an action that has even a slight chance of leading to improvements in the article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:10, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I would disagree, as you and I were just able to improve the article once the threat to hat this discussion was not kept. Maybe jumping to conclusions isn't always the best idea? Handpolk (talk) 13:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

You've made no effort to actually discuss this with anyone, least of all FPaS, and you've waded directly into one of the most controversial articles on Misplaced Pages without any apparent effort to check the extremely voluminous archives to see why the wording you object to is there. The talkpage has special sanctions in place to quash repetitious challenges to the consensus from new editors who have not previously participated, as the tick-tock explanations of how things got there began to loop back on themselves. Why is this at ANI so quickly? Acroterion (talk) 11:36, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Not true: Handpolk brought this up on FPaS' talk page first.Bosstopher (talk) 11:40, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, I need caffeine it appears. Nevertheless, the core issue is why is this at ANI? Acroterion (talk) 11:46, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I will acknowledge I did not spend the required 10++ hours of reading necessary to go through the archives. That said, I would think in that case, rather than hatting me with dismissive and condescending explanations and threatening me with sanctions when I ask how to proceed, the editor in question could calmly explain it to me in a mature manner, possibly with links to previous discussions. Handpolk (talk) 12:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

The admittedly lengthy talk page archives are searchable, so you might try that feature. Also, it states at the search tool, Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives and review the FAQ before commenting. Good advice for us all. Liz 13:00, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Handpolk, it is typical in ANI discussions to provide diffs, that is, evidence in the form of links to the edits that you are talking about, on the Gamergate controversy talk page and any other page where these discussions have occurred. You should make it easy for admins and editors here to see the dispute you are talking about so they can assess your argument and weigh its validity rather require them to search to find the edits you are upset about. Liz 11:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

And I offer myself as example #1 of why Liz's advice is important. Please present a case, don't just complain that you don't like something. Sanctioning any editor as you appear to desire requires direct evidence of a pattern of problems over time. I see a simple disagreement over when a discussion has become unproductive typing. Several threads on that talkpage have veered in that direction in recent times, and there appears to be a certain amount of filibustering, particularly by the OP. Acroterion (talk) 11:58, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I did present a case. What I did not present was links to make it convenient to verify my claims. I spend my time editing articles, my noticeboard and talk page game evidently needs work. If anybody wants to edit in diffs to what I said, I would be very grateful. Handpolk (talk) 12:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I did present a case. What I did not present was links to make it convenient to verify my claims

What you just did there was make a claim in one sentence then contradict it in the next. No, you made no case whatsoever: the links ARE your case. And if you can't be bothered to make a case, then why should anyone bother to pay attention to you? --Calton | Talk 13:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I just tried, I have no idea how to link to a specific part of a talk page. I disagree one cannot make a case without being an expert at using this arcane and complicated software. It may require a couple extra clicks, but anybody can verify the claims I made. Handpolk (talk) 13:44, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• ...why am I not surprised by this editor's conduct. Cassianto 12:20, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• ...why am I not surprised at your trolling? _Fortuna 12:48, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• ...Sorry, you are? You can't be much good as I've never heard of you before. Oh no wait, your the person who embarrassed themselves on the Richard III talk page not so long ago. Cassianto 15:45, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• ...why am I not surprised you've yet to retract your false allegations about me from this editors talk page? Handpolk (talk) 13:36, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• ...why am I not surprised at your lack of surprise at my calling you out over canvassing spam? _Fortuna 14:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Another (minor) example: On this very page, at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Religion in the PSR of Albania Future Perfect at Sunrise told me to not accept the closing comments by another administrator on my recent RfC. Although this is a very minor issue because I was the target and I am an experienced editor, this sort of behavior would have been quite discouraging to a newbie trying to follow the rules but unsure whether he understands them correctly. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Guy Macon, I don't see FPaS's comments at that discussion as relevant here. What FPaS appears to be saying is that the RFC's results aren't applicable, because the RFC was about individuals and the article concerned is a political entity. Zad68 12:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

You clearly failed to read the closing comments on the RfC. It applies to all articles, not just articles about individuals. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:59, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

The point I made, and what's relevant to this ANI discussion, is that FPaS made a reasonable argument regarding the interpretation of the RFC results, and so it isn't clearly evidence of bad behavior on their part. Zad68 13:21, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

So the message you are sending users is to ignore the admin's closing comments if you happen to disagree with them, interpret contentious RfCs for yourself, revert editors who do pay attention to the closing admin's closing comments, and report those users at ANI for doing what the closing admin told them to do? --Guy Macon (talk) 13:31, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Guy, sorry man but we're really not meeting each others' points here. You and another editor are involved in a content dispute at an article FPaS has (as far as I can tell) never edited, the other editor brought it to ANI, FPaS made one, pretty even-handed comment that was really about behavior (avoiding edit-warring) rather than the content dispute. I'm talking about that and whether or not it provides support for concerns regarding FPaS's behavior. I'm not really interested in the actual underlying infobox question. Zad68 13:49, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Someone may be impersonating me

User Michael thomas 89 has contacted me about being approached off wiki be someone claiming to be me. He said that the person had claimed to have checked their declined draft article Draft:New_Net_Technologies and directed him to my user page “I am a Wikipedian with high privileges, check my user page:http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Sarahj2107 ” . The person then offered to rewrite the article and get it approved.

Michael thomas 89 claims that they took the person up on their initial offer and the page was published. The person then demanded $300, said they had requested the page be deleted and it would only be reinstated when the money was paid. He didn’t think that was right so he then contacted me on my talk page and forwarded some more details to me via email.

New Net Technologies Ltd was created by blocked user user:Coralbatch on 22 May 2015 (the same day as the first email sent to Michael thomas 89), only edit by them and then deleted on 10 June by Guerillero under WP:CSD#G5.

I would really appreciate some help in dealing with this. Sarahj2107 (talk) 13:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you know if he was sent a copy of the article to be approved prior to its use? If so, I would like that emailed to me for further evaluation. It may be possible to tie this in with certain paid editor groups.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:15, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, two other sock accounts are in play and should be checkusered against the already blocked editor as well as the one who is conversing with you.

• (draft history) by Neilmacleod (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• (revision history) by ECooke1804 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

• Michael thomas 89 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• (already blocked by Guerillero) Coralbatch (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

This may be related to an existing SPI case.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Does this constitute a criminal offense? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:38, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm wondering if this scam has been pulled before (possibly impersonating other admins as well) and just hadn't come to light because the "customers" hadn't followed it up or the articles they paid for did get created and have so far slipped under the radar. It's quite worrying. Voceditenore (talk) 14:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

@Berean Hunter: He was sent a link to User:Coralbatch/sandbox asking him to review the draft and let them know when he is ready for it to be published, along with payment details. I will email you what was sent to me. He is also saying that Neilmacleod is just a customer who created a page when they found there wasn't already one, and Emmacooke is someone from the companies PR department. Sarahj2107 (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

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