Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:30, 16 June 2015

Welcome!

Hello, Internetwikier, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one of your contributions does not conform to Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy (NPOV). Misplaced Pages articles should refer only to facts and interpretations that have been stated in print or on reputable websites or other forms of media.

There's a page about the NPOV policy that has tips on how to effectively write about disparate points of view without compromising the NPOV status of the article as a whole. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the New contributors' help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{Help me}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few other good links for newcomers:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!  78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 19:51, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Talk:United_Synagogue#Discussion_re_recent_edit_war

Please visit the section and read my introduction carefully. Thank you. --Dweller (talk) 10:54, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

April 2015

You may wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles. See the Article Wizard.

The article We Believe in Israel has been speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This was done because the article, which appeared to be about a real person, individual animal, organization (band, club, company, etc.), web content or organized event, did not indicate how or why the subject is notable, that is, why an article about that subject should be included in Misplaced Pages. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the notability of the subject may be deleted at any time. If you can indicate why the subject is really notable, you are free to re-create the article, making sure to cite any verifiable sources.

Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, and for specific types of articles, you may want to check out our criteria for biographies, for web sites, for musicians, or for companies. Feel free to leave a note on my talk page if you have any questions about this. NawlinWiki (talk) 20:26, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages and copyright

Hello Internetwikier, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. Your addition to We Believe in Israel has had to be removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material without permission from the copyright holder. While we appreciate your contributing to Misplaced Pages, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from your sources to avoid copyright or plagiarism issues here.

• You can only copy/translate a small amount of a source, and you must mark what you take as a direct quotation with double quotation marks (") and a cited source. You can read about this at Misplaced Pages:Non-free content in the sections on "text". See also Help:Referencing for beginners, for how to cite sources here.
• Aside from limited quotation, you must put all information in your own words and structure, in proper paraphrase. Following the source's words too closely can create copyright problems, so it is not permitted here; see Misplaced Pages:Close paraphrasing. (There is a college-level introduction to paraphrase, with examples, hosted by the Online Writing Lab of Purdue.) Even when using your own words, you are still, however, asked to cite your sources to verify information and to demonstrate that the content is not original research.
• Our primary policy on using copyrighted content is Misplaced Pages:Copyrights. You may also want to review Misplaced Pages:Copy-paste.
• If you own the copyright to the source you want to copy or are a designated agent, you may be able to license that text so that we can publish it here. However, there are steps that must be taken to verify that license before you do. See Misplaced Pages:Donating copyrighted materials.
• In very rare cases (that is, for sources that are public domain or compatibly licensed), it may be possible to include greater portions of a source text. However, please seek help at the help desk before adding such content to the article. 99.9% of sources may not be added in this way, so it is necessary to seek confirmation first. If you do confirm that a source is public domain or compatibly licensed, you will still need to provide full attribution; see Misplaced Pages:Plagiarism for the steps you need to follow.
• Also note that Misplaced Pages articles may not be copied or translated without attribution. If you want to copy or translate from another Misplaced Pages project or article, you can, but please follow the steps in Misplaced Pages:Copying within Misplaced Pages.

It's very important that contributors understand and follow these practices, as policy requires that people who persistently do not must be blocked from editing. If you have any questions about this, you are welcome to leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Dai Pritchard (talk) 21:20, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

April 2015

Your addition to We Believe in Israel has been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Misplaced Pages without permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Misplaced Pages:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Misplaced Pages. For legal reasons, Misplaced Pages cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Misplaced Pages takes copyright violations very seriously and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. Dai Pritchard (talk) 21:34, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, including your edits to Board of Deputies of British Jews, but we cannot accept original research. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:29, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

More specifically, you added material which did not mention the Board of Deputies of British Jews, Tanya Williams, or the former's criticism of the latter. Even had your citations pertained to the article subject, citations are used to support the content of an article, not for users to pass their personal critique or "comparative analysis" of them and to advance a case not stated in any of them. Please read WP:SYNTH, WP:OR and WP:V: "The citation must clearly support the material as presented in the article". Mutt Lunker (talk) 01:02, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to United Synagogue. Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. You are employing synthesis again. This is not allowed and what's more undermines your case; please stop. Mutt Lunker (talk) 09:56, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to violate Misplaced Pages's no original research policy by adding your personal analysis or synthesis into articles, as you did at United Synagogue, you may be blocked from editing. Your addition of material from refs that makes no mention of the article subject to push a POV consitutes such blatant and clumsy WP:SYNTH that one might think you as likely to be an agent provacateur as a one professes the views expressed. Please read the policies and stop this abuse. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you add unsourced material to Misplaced Pages, as you did at United Synagogue. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:04, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Hello and welcome to Misplaced Pages. When you add content to talk pages and Misplaced Pages pages that have open discussion (but never when editing articles), please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

1. Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment; or
2. With the cursor positioned at the end of your comment, click on the signature button ( or ) located above the edit window.

This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.

Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 14:06, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

discussion at Adminstrators noticeboard

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --Ravpapa (talk) 12:56, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

June 2015

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you add unsourced material to Misplaced Pages, as you did at United Synagogue. NeilN 15:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Your recent editing history at United Synagogue shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. NeilN 15:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on United Synagogue. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. _Fortuna 15:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Note

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding the Arab–Israeli conflict, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Template:Z33 --NeilN 17:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

June 2015

@StevenJ81: StevenJ81 - Misplaced Pages has a 'no original synthesis' policy, yet BICOM is allowed to use its own website to substantiate facts about what it sees as truths?

How can this be permitted as a reliable sources of referencing? When I draw attention to this, and clearly label it as such, it is deemed worth of a block?

If this isn't censorship, or as close to through 'omission' of pertinent clarification and contextualization, then what is?

There is clearly no point to Misplaced Pages if all that people are here to do is delete any clarifying material - the organization CAN NOT be its own source of referencing for facts about itself!!!!

@Drmies: Please help me understand why I have been blocked when the content that was added simply highlighted, as per Misplaced Pages guidelines, that material being references was unattributable material, containing no sources, verifiable or not. As you can see from the edits that you yourself have made to the BICOM webpage, it reads as an advert for BICOM, nothing more.

All I have done it add clarifying content to the page to show that what is being described as 'fact' is in fact material created by the organisation in question and nothing more. How is this contentious, and why should it not be made explicit? Internetwikier (talk) 20:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Internetwikier, Drmies is cleaning up inappropriate information on that page. But if you really don't see the difference between what Drmies is doing and what you did, then you truly can't participate here. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

@StevenJ81: That sounds like the ultimate catch-all-cop-out paradox to be honest: 'if you don't agree with what we've done then you're clearly in the wrong'. Nice.

I have asked a simple question: why is BICOM allowed to assert that it provides historical educational material, of value and truthfulness, when it provides no verifiable sources to back up such a claim? In fact, I have simply added, in THE SAME LANGUAGE (copied and pasted, no less) as the Misplaced Pages page dedicated to laying out the rules for the non-inclusion of original synthesis, that the self-asserted historical material contains no references. Is that not useful? does that not provide the reader with a clearer appreciation of the so-called value of the material likely to be found on the organizations website in question? Remembering that I used the same language that Misplaced Pages promotes, verbatim, why is this now editorial in tone and nature?

If you were ever the slightest bit suspicious that there might be a concerted agenda here from people wishing to hide the motives of these organizations (notice how all references to Zionism, lobby and pressure group, despite ample independent sources asserting as such) are slowly being sanitized from the pages), or thought that there might be grounds for including even the smallest bit of criticism of BICOM or the United Synagogue (all connected organizations and all the subject of numerous 'Pro Peace, Pro Jewish; organization who don't feel the need to equate Zionism with Judaism) then take a look at the two respective pages now: since my edits have been removed, ALL criticism of the organization made by others and my referenced changes have been removed as the sources (national news organizations, no less) have been deemed unacceptable to this US-centric audience.

Is that, in your own honest opinion, what YOU believe to be an honest reflection of the criticism that exists out there of these organization? Do you really believe that these organizations provide objective and honest historical and educational material knowing what you know now about their unashamedly pro-Zionist position? Can you not help Misplaced Pages to reflect that, as you promised you would do such a long time ago? If you're really here for building an encyclopedia, you would, regardless of my (assumed) motives. Internetwikier (talk) 21:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Internetwikier, the ANI discussion made it clear that I am not the only one to consider your edits to be not neutral; various warnings here indicate, additionally, that you have not been adhering to various behavioral guidelines (by edit warring, for instance). I don't know this BICOM group, but what I do know is they don't write the Misplaced Pages article. If you cannot see that in this edit you are editorializing, giving commentary which is not based on reliable sources, then I cannot explain it any better to you. And thinking that such edits are allowed on Misplaced Pages and further our objectives is a completely misunderstanding of what we're doing--hence WP:NOTHERE. I suggest you think carefully before formulating a possible unblock requet. Also, I am not interested in any discussion on any organization: this is not about some organization, or some critique thereof; it's about your edits and your behavior. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 22:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: I have read what you have written and wish for clarification. I have looked at what you say regarding this edit and would like you to help me understand why this is problematic. Specifically the section from line 10 where I say:

" under the identity of the We Believe In Israel grassroots initiative, self-publishes original synthesis materials (devoid of reliable, published sources and references) "

Let us look at this in more detail so I can see why this is worthy of an edit block. I write:

1) 'under the identity of the We Believe In Israel grassroots initiative' = this is a fact, and BICOM states publicly that We Believe in Israel is its own grassroots initiate.

2) 'self-publishes' = the organization is not only the publisher, but the author. Hence this is self publishing.

3) 'original synthesis materials' = these documents are the creation of We Believe in Israel, and reference no other political, historical or cultural sources, hence they are not an authority on any of the matters that they write about.

4) 'devoid of reliable, published sources and references' = The United Synagogue, BICOM and We Believe in Israel use these self-published documents to bolster their claims regarding the issues contained within these very same documents across their various sites at different times and in different places

If the issue is with the WORDING then please rewrite. But what is the 'editorial nature' of these claims? They are facts. And I referenced them as such. Internetwikier (talk) 22:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

This was an edit conflict with Drmies. But if you look at the last bit I wrote, it's the same as what he wrote. Consider that.

Gosh. You really don't understand. Amazing.

The difference is really simple:

• Drmies deleted information that was unsourced, promotional, etc., etc.
• You editorialized, making accusations that BICOM self-publishes materials, has no references, is unreliable, etc. First of all, BICOM may be allowed to do so: it's not Misplaced Pages, it's BICOM. Second, you made that assertion here, without reliable sources here, to support that claim. Third, even if your assertion had been supported, it was expressed in a highly biased and not-at-all neutral tone.

The last time I looked at the United Synagogue page, it had about a paragraph on the Israel advocacy of US, and about a paragraph of critique along the lines of what you were advocating. In my view, that was sufficient coverage of the subject and its criticism. It may not have been as full an exposition as you wanted, but in my opinion it was sufficient coverage, it was balanced, and it was appropriate to the subject.

Internetwikier, much as I disagree with it, I absolutely think that the opposition to Israel in the Jewish community is material enough not to be WP:FRINGE. But I also absolutely think it represents a minority view in the Jewish community. So that is how it should be reflected in articles on Jewish communal organizations. Not censored, but not the main story, either.

I am committed to the encyclopedia project, and because of the last point I made above, I really wanted to make sure that your perspective was captured and included. I really wanted to do that. But to you, that's not enough. To you, the whole world has to agree that the Zionist narrative is something evil that has to be wiped out, that anyone espousing that point of view is a racist, and that any article that fails to emphasize that point of view above all others is biased. We all tried to get you engage with us on what an appropriate approach to the problem would be, but you would have none of it. You wanted to tell your story your way, and leave the rest of us scrambling to balance. But that's not what this is all about.

If you had been an engaged editor, willing to work with everyone else to create a balanced article, Drmies might have reverted you, but he wouldn't have blocked you. That edit was the last straw, to be sure. But the block wasn't really about the content at all. It was about the fact that nobody here thinks you are willing to work toward consensus and compromise. And when you are not willing to work toward consensus and compromise, you can't participate here.

You know what, Internetwikier? If you feel so strongly that Zionism and all of the rest of this is so evil that no consensus and compromise is possible, then God bless you: Fight for what you believe in. But this will not be a venue for that fight. StevenJ81 (talk) 22:19, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

@StevenJ81:

'...I absolutely think that the opposition to Israel in the Jewish community is material enough not to be WP:FRINGE.' 

I'm pleased to hear it - although you are not precise enough in your wording: there is not 'opposition to Israel', per se, but opposition to a ZIONIST interpretation of what Israel should mean. They are important differences that should be clarified. Israel is, and perhaps always will be, an 'idea in the making' with different competing narratives about what she represents. My ideal is that these organizations' WikiPages make EXPLICIT their allegiances and opinions through the use of sources and references, from a range of left/right, western, non-western, news sources. Is that not a worthy goal? If so, why not help me achieve this?

'....but I also absolutely think it represents a minority view in the Jewish community.'

And here we have the nub of the problem: you feel that my edits to this page and the weight that they command are the preserve of 'Jewish community' alone , whereas in actual fact they impact massively of many more non-Jews than Jews across the world. It would be trite of me to ask which Jewish community you asked that enabled you to form your opinion that it is a minority view, because we both know you haven't 'asked' any community - you've used your inbuilt bias and learned prejudices to inform your opinion and have, like all the others here, only REMOVED content, and not added any.

Does it not strike you as odd that the greater crime, when compared to my so-called editorialized edits, is that until I showed an active interest in these pages that they remained, for many years, as publicity posting boards for the organizations in question, and yet it has been my 'controversial' edits that have shone a light on the poor research standards and fact checking by the very same editors and contributors that eschew my changes?

These are RELIGIOUS organizations that are seeking to normalize the idea of Zionism through inclusion and blending of theological/historical narratives - which for better or for worse - ARE NOT a religious doctrine. If you can edit my edits to make this apparent - and not editorial in style - you will have done a true service to Misplaced Pages. Allowing unchallenged Zionist Propaganda to shine on at the expense of all else is not what these page should be about. Internetwikier (talk) 23:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• StevenJ81, thank you, but please stay out of this. Internetwikier, what you are doing is original research at best--look it up, WP:OR. Drmies (talk) 00:02, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• StevenJ81 & Drmies Please include a reference to this report, critical of BICOM and its misinformation, in the BICOM page - as I can no longer edit, it falls upon those of good faith to do so https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-lobby-uk-quitting-battle-public-opinion

Drmies While an AN/I case was still open you enacted the block above while giving this notification at AN/I to which IW was obviously unable to reply.

Drmies and Internetwikier: In the context of views presented above I certainly agree that the earlier text presented a one sided account so as to present "It provides learning materials to both the Board of Deputies of British Jews and The United Synagogue, who together represent a large percentage of British Jews" but would certainly agree that to then present "It self-publishes original synthesis materials, devoid of reliable, published sources and references, to both the Board of Deputies of British Jews and The United Synagogue, who together represent a large percentage of British Jews" goes to another extreme which also, arguably presents ambiguous content. What are "original synthesis materials"? Internetwikier, this is just one reason why collaboration is important. Rightly Misplaced Pages editors may be interpreted to regularly present "original synthesis materials" as those materials may be interpreted to have existed pre-synthesis with this information being presented within editor arguments against the use of synthesis. With issues like this questions may also be raised in regard to WP:CIR "competence is required". You say "If the issue is with the WORDING then please rewrite." but the very fact that you say "If" appears to me to illustrate a current lack of understanding on wp p and g issues on your part. Your text included the wording "devoid of reliable, published sources and references" which may be true but this method of presentation is utilised by even the most internally reliable organisations and was WP:undue. You need to either learn or accept what can and can't be said about people and organisations within guidelines and I agree with statements at AN/I that you have unacceptably used up wp:rppe. I do not see a problem with presenting a connection as the "We Believe In Israel grassroots initiative" or with an indication that materials that the organisation "self-publishes" its materials.

Drmies Unanimous support was given to a topic ban while mixed opposition was given to a global ban. Indefinite is a very long time. GregKaye 06:23, 16 June 2015 (UTC)