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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

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Citation for Kurdish co-operation with Ottoman massacres?

I removed the sentence containing "Kurdish tribes cooperated with Ottoman authorities in the massacres against Armenian and Assyrian Christians in Upper Mesopotamia" as I could not find mention of places in what is now called Rojava in the citation at R. S. Stafford (2006). The Tragedy of the Assyrians. p. 25.

Therefore it seemed irrelevent to this article, which is about Rojava.

@Attar-Aram syria I agree wıth you that Rojava is part of Upper Mesopotamia but as far as I can tell the new refs you have added do not refer to the part of Upper Mesopotamia now called Rojava. Of course my geography or history knowledge could be wrong and I stand to be corrected if anyone know better. Jzlcdh (talk) 17:59, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Well User:Jzlcdh, when there is a conflict, you leave the article as it is and go to the talk page, instead of deleting what you want then asking others to come to the talk page.

As for the the sentence you deleted, it give context to the following sentences so that the reader will understand what happened.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't dispute your point about Misplaced Pages ettiquette but I am afraid I am too lazy to look that up in the Misplaced Pages guidelines - if that was rude I apologise. However I think the problem with the sentence was that a typical uninformed reader would think the event mentioned occurred in what is now Rojava. Jzlcdh (talk) 18:19, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Im bored with this article ! every one trying to hide some shameful past or force an agenda (and Im not talking about you in particular Jzlcdh but in general).. so I'm not gonna bother my self with putting those materials you deleted.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:22, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not disputing whether or not there was a massacre of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, but even if there was how would it be relevant to Rojava? Varous terrible things were done by the British Empire but those which occured outside colonyX before it became independant from Britain are probably irrelevent to countryX even if people ethnically the same as those from colonyX were among the perpetrators. Of course there may be one or two exceptions (perhaps in world war 1) but in general I think that would be the case. I might be able to think of a more specific example but I don't want to offend anyone. Jzlcdh (talk) 19:15, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, its relevant when it happen in turkey and the survivors emigrate to Syria. If you wrote that Assyrians came to Syria and stopped, there will be no context ! and the readers wont understand what happened and why those people came !!!!! So, it is relevant because it is WHY those people came to Syria on the first place.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 19:19, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Propose merge of Foreign relations of Rojava

I think Foreign relations of Rojava is too small a topic to have its own article so have proposed it is merged with this one.

An outdated proposal, hence removed.GreyShark (dibra) 05:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

History between 1941 and 2012?

There is a bit under the economy section. Should that be moved to the history section and if so what should the subheading be?

Saeed Agha in the history of the French mandate

I don't speak Arabic but even with the wonders of translation software I cannot find the name "Saeed Agha" in the references given to support the sentence about Amuda which says: "This massacre carried out by the Kurd Saeed Agha emptied the city of its Assyrian population." So unless anyone can add a convincing reference I will remove this sentence. Jzlcdh (talk) 17:51, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Here's your source Syria's Kurds: History, Politics and Society. Routledge--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 18:06, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

YPG burning down Arab villages

http://syriadirect.org/main/36-interviews/1937-activist-ypg-wiped-arab-villages-off-the-face-of-the-map --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 03:29, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Here is another source (Kurdish this time) confirming that PYD militias burnt down houses in Arab villages. This is yet another reason why this article should be called PYD-controlled areas (or Kurdish-controlled areas of Syria). Will reopen the discussion soon. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk)

If you closely read the source, you should notice that it's not a kurdisch source. It's an arab source. On top of that: "We do not believe that the PYD fought in Tall Hamis and Tall Birak to weaken the Islamists". It's not confirming, it's claming. That's silly.--Lexikon-Duff (talk) 02:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Government

The way the government of Rojava is displayed is inconsistent with that of other states (and feminism isn't really a type of government) Similar to how Cuba etc are "Marxist-Leninist single-party state" or even just "Socialist state." It should probably say a. Socialist state b. Provisional socialist state c. Libertarian socialist state or d. Democratic confederalist socialist state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.145.68.130 (talk) 20:11, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

I removed feminism, etc., which are political philosophies and not types of governments. --I am One of Many (talk) 20:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Population

Population of Rojava appears heavily inflated, I would not rely on Kurdish sources. Alternatively a pro-Government source suggested 5-10% of the country's population is in Kurdish control which would be ~900,000-1,800,000. That figure seems more reasonable however is inaccurate and does not have a specific relative source.

Updating the map

Tal Abyad seems to be liberated by the YPG. I think the map should be updated.--Lexikon-Duff (talk) 22:33, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

What does "libertaed" mean? Does this mean that any part occupied by YPG using military force becomes automatically Kurdish? Tell Aybad has an Arab majority. This whole article needs to be renamed to YPG-controlled areas. BTW, the map of the Syrian civil war shows the areas under military control of each faction. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

No that doesn't mean that obviously. With "liberated" I meant, free of the freaking ISIS group. And I read that the kurds don't want to establish a kurdisch state. They want a confederalist democracy with selfcontrolled counsils and cantons where the different people live on their own and so on.--Lexikon-Duff (talk) 02:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the Claim that Rojava is not part of Kurdistan

A paragraph taken from the 19th century John Miles book, does not mention anything about Syrian Kurdish areas (Afrin/north Aleppo/north Raqqa/Jazira), so naturally it can not be used to show that Kurdistan does not include Rojava/northern Syria. Moreover, it contradicts other sources such as Kreyenbroek which is recent and scholarly and more reliable.Vekoler (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

What make it Kurdistan ? was it part of a Kurdistan province ? or was it acknowledged as a Kurdistan region ? Not any place the Kurds migrate to become a Kurdistan. In the 19th century, Kurdistan was not that large. That quote is historical and represent the situation back then. I will restor it and I hope that you reach a consensus here before removing sourced material. Mills was talking about Kurdistan region not about Kurds. There is no contradiction. Not all the places Kurds live in become their historic land.

One more thing, there was no Ottoman Kurdistan for most of the Ottoman history. Only for 20 years did an Eyalet of Kurdistan existed from 1847 to 1867 and it didnt include Jazira So how did Ottoman Kurdistan included Syrian Jazira ? What does Kreyenbroek mean with Ottoman Kurdistan. Is he talking about an actual region (which in this case did not include Syrian Jazira) or is he talking about places Kurds live in ?? because it is clear in the article that no one is denying that Kurds migrated and lived in many parts of Syria.

I read the source . He is talking about areas inhabited by Kurds and not about a well defined geopolitical region such as a province or autonomous state. He also doe not claim that there was such a unit in the Ottoman empire that included Syrian Jazira. Mils on the other hand is talking about Kurdistan as a geopolitical unit for the Kurds... A distinction must be made between a Kurdistan and Where Kurds live, or else, even Haret al-Akrad neighborhood in Damascus will be claimed as part of the ever expanding Kurdistan.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 19:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Attar: Can't agree more. Very-well said. Most of the Kurds in those areas are descendants of people who immigrated from Turkey in the 1920's, and that's about the same time when many cities in the area were established (Qamishli, Ayn al-Arab, etc.). In addition to the maps from Attar, Treaty of Sevres maps, CIA, among many others, show a minimal presence of Kurds in Syria. For example, The Historical Atlas (New York, Henry Holt and Company, 1911) here shows some Kurds in Ayn al-Arab area and almost no Kurds to the east or west within the Syrian border. Some people here think that every land where Kurds were hosted/live becomes Kurdistan, that's simply wrong. In addition, Kurds are currently practicing ethnic cleansing in the areas they invade by force. Cheers, Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 20:09, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Dear Amr, All we care about here is to improve the content of the encyclopaedia by providing academic/reliable sources. There is a definition of traditional Kurdistan and that has nothing to do with the unfortunate recent events in Iraq/Syria. Not every land Kurds live on is part of Kurdistan, simply because that region has a historical/traditional definition. For instance Britannica has the following definition:

Kurdistan, Arabic Kurdistān, Persian Kordestān , broadly defined geographic region traditionally inhabited mainly by Kurds. It consists of an extensive plateau and mountain area, spread over large parts of what are now eastern Turkey, northern Iraq, and western Iran and smaller parts of northern Syria and ArmeniaVekoler (talk) 21:00, 24 June 2015 (UTC).

The problem is the misinterpretation of the Mils book. It does not say this or that area did not belong to geographic region of Kurdistan. For instance, it also does not mention Diyarbakir, can we conclude that Diyarbakir is not in Kurdistan? Please keep in mind that what we discuss is the geo-cultural region of Kurdistan not any political entity. What Kereynbroek means is the traditional areas in Middle East under Ottoman control with a Kurdish majority, not any specific province. Ottoman Kurdistan is a well-established term in academic circles and it included parts of contemporary Syria. One can find numerous academic sources which mention break-up and division of "Ottoman Kurdistan" between Turkey/Iraq and Syria in the Treaty of Lausanne. Also there are academic sources that include northeastern Syria in Kurdistan (see source 3).

1) M. Moaz, G. Sheffer, "Middle Eastern Minorities and Diasporas", Quote:Under the 1923 Lausanne Treaty the former Ottoman Kurdistan was divided between the newly-formed states of Turkey, Iraq, and Syria, p.185

2) M. Ahmed, M. Gunter, "The Kurdish Question and the 2003 Iraqi War", Quote: 1923 Treaty of Lausanne which formally divided Ottoman Kurdistan among Turkey, Syria and Iraq, p.17

3) C. Dahlman, "The Political Geography of Kurdistan", in Eurasian Geography & Economics, Vol.43, No.4, 2002, p.271 Quote: The environs of Kurdistan encompass the mountains and plateaus of southeast Anatolia, the eastern Taurus and northern Zagros mountains, along with their foothills, and extend out onto the upper reaches of the dissected Transtigridian plains of Mesopotamia and the Jazira region in northeastern Syria.Vekoler (talk) 20:49, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Vekoler, obviously your third source is too recent to give a historical perspective that goes against all established sources and maps, let alone their vague definition of Kuridstan environs of Kurdistan not land of Kurdistan or territory of Kurdistan, possibly meaning that these DO NOT belong to Kurdistan, but rather the outer extent or zone of influence, which would make sense given the other maps. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:44, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello Vekoler and Amr, I guess that the reason for our disagreement is that this article is about a political entity and "Kurdistan" have two meanings, 1- a real political unit, which in my mind started when the Seljuks created the province of Kurdistan in the land that witnessed the birth of Kurds from the union of the 5000 years old Iranified Zagrosian Tribes, and evolved until it became the Kurdistan of the Ottomans created in 1847. 2- Traditional lands that had a Kurdish majority after the incorporation of Kurds into the Ottoman empire by Selim I.

As it is obvious, Kurdistan did grow substantially from the old smaller zagrosian Kurdistan as Kurds (like all other people in the region including Armenians, Arabs, Syriacs and Turks) expanded their presence for different reasons. But this article is about Rojava, which became a de-facto political unit. And the Kurdistan described by Mils is a land actually ruled by Kurdish princess (so a political unit). while the Kurdistan identified by Britanica and other newer sources is about Kurdistan in its modern version where Kurds had became a majority. For example, in the 20s and 30s Syriacs, not Arabs or Kurds (Im not a Syriac by the way regardless of my user name), where the majority of Jazira. So how can this land be part of the traditional Kurdish inhabited areas.?--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 23:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed Attar. Huge demographic shifts have happened as a result of massacres and violence, which led to two opposite migrations, inbound by Kurds and outbound by Syrics/Assyrians. I come from Aleppo and have several friends (Syriacs and Assyrians) who still have their ID documents issued in al-Hasakah Governorate (and renewed there), although they have been living in Aleppo for decades. This is why is strongly feel the title of this article should be "Areas under control by Kurdish forces", as part of the civil was articles. Furthermore, there is nothing to substantiate the claims of a territory; no international or national recognition, no clear border, no agreements with other parts of Syria or international parties. This area is no different from any other area in Syria under military control by any of the different factions. Amr ibn Kulthoumعمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:44, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Update to two cantons instead of three?

The YPG taking Tell Abyad seems to have connected Cezire and Kobani, this at least according to pro-Rojava sources like Roarmag and the New York Times:

With that, the Kurds connected two of their self-administered cantons along the border with Turkey, putting even more pressure on Raqqa.

--CartoonDiablo (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Propaganda sources

I agree with you on the idea that Pradva.Ru may be a one-sided source but, if it is propaganda machine of Russian government, so what about websites such as Kurdwatch and leavelike which are propaganda machines of the corrupt and bankrupted so-called "Syrian coalition of oppositions" and are used for same nonsense claims to YPG! I would recommend to delete all contents in Rojava article which are based on these sources. At least Pravda.ru has an entry in Misplaced Pages.--Multi-gesture (talk) 16:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

You are right, but the difference : we dont use those sources to say that YPG are murderers, thieves and degenerate. As for Pravda having an entry, so is Stormfront (website) and many other sites. It doesnt make them a place to get neutral news from. I will look in Rojava and delete liveleaks material now.

and Multi-gesture, Kurdwatch in no different from the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights. If you are going to be using the observatory then Kurdwatch is appropriate.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 16:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Please read this section of Rojava article again carefully. This section which was added by Ibn Kolthum accuses PYD for every crimes that can happen in the world! All of those accusations are based on these junky websites (especially Kurdwatch which is truely a propaganda and nonsense site - I would explain more about this site -). Another important thing I must say is that the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights is trusted and creditable and it has been used by many well-known references and news agencies.--Multi-gesture (talk) 16:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Multi-gesture, those are accusations about violations committed at time of war and not personal attacks against YPG, which is different from the style of Pravda which make personal attacks on people they dont like. Well, I see kurdwatch and the observatory from the same rank. Maybe we can go here : Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. They will study the source. But you need to make a case for it and tell them why it isnt reliable as a source for making mere accusations. Remember, we dont use Kurdwatch as a fact source but as an allegation source.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Kurdwatch must be removed from wikipedia. It's wondering that how forcible recruitment is a huge concern for this so-called human rights website but mass-killings of more than 200 civilians in Kobani after ISIS attacks is not worth to mention by them! It shows insane entity of this website and shows that it is not related to any Kurd and it is created for propagating propaganda rumors for someone's or a group's interests. It's a good idea to check these sites (Kurdwatch for me and maybe Syriahr for you)--Multi-gesture (talk) 17:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Multi-gesture, since our discussion didnt include any special correspondence between us outside the Rojava subject, then I moved it to here so that other editors can participate since this discussion will have effects on the article and sources. Also so that any other editor interested can participate and give his opinion about Kurdwatch and Syrian observatory.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 17:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Attar-Aram syria; also the sentence "Kobani siege was led by an ISIS Kurdish leader Abu Khattab al-Kurdi" without more information, not only unrelated to the Rojava article (and as you mentioned is considered WP:SYNTH) but it is also shouldn't come in continuation of the sentence "one of the biggest massacres by the group in the country since its offensive began in the summer of 2014" because ISIS offensive through Syria began before its plans for the siege of Kobani.--Multi-gesture (talk) 20:21, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Multi-gesture, look at the edit history of the article. I already removed that sentence about the Kurdish leader and removed that ISIS is led by Arabs. Both are irrelevant to Rojava and the crimes being done. ISIS isnt killing because its led by Arabs. Actually ISIS killed much more Arabs than Kurds.--Attar-Aram syria (talk) 20:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Attar-Aram syria; if ISIS isn't pro-Arab, so what does it mean when they call Kurdish people live their conquered areas and repopulate those places with Arab people? Of course there are many brain-washed kurds among ISIS but it doesn't change anything about this terrible organization. Can you explain me who ISIS is? ISIS and even its non-Arab followers believe that because Mohammad was Arab, so Arabic race is superior than other races.

I also clean this article from sources such as Kurdwatch and leavelikes as you deleted Pravda-linked contents. -- Multi-gesture (talk) 20:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

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