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Revision as of 20:33, 2 August 2006

The importance of being fair and balanced on BOTH sides

Chicken Soda - a while back, I attempted to ask you what are your references for the inserts you keep doing for Emory University, such as:

>>Emory has an unusual student culture in that by most >>measures, the administration is far more progressive than the student body.

>>Emory's student culture is very conservative.

I didn't ever find a reply. Please note that I am at and have been with Emory for several years now in different capacities, and I find your statement a dubious opinion at best... no doubt what you write may apply to some of Emory's students, but not the majority and certainly not the entire student culture. If you have a verifiable source, then it could be considered. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think I didn't ever re-insert these statements after they were removed? Is your argument seriously that because I made 2 uncited claims which were deleted, and which I didn't reinstate, that it's OK for Emory's guns to warp the article however they choose?

Um, Chickensoda -- are you angry much? If you read the heading of this topic, it says BOTH sides need to be fair and balanced. Then if you check the history of the Emory University article, I removed not only your comments, but equally comments that went to far as promotional, pro-Emory advertising. Dude, calm down, and recognize that when I ask you to be balanced, I'm also asking the other side to be balanced too. Check my edits, you'll see I removed their pieces too. Wiki4fun 16:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, what office with Emory are you with, and which ones have you worked with in the past? (I think your affiliations should be clear as you seem to claim both insider knowledge and a lack of bias.)

Again, see above Chickensoda. Paranoid much? Why would I also remove pro-Emory advertising if I was with an Emory office? To answer you: I'm not. I work full-time with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and am a current part-time PhD student at Emory who previously attended as a college student. I live 5 minutes from Emory's campus at the moment and divide my time between CDC and Emory equally. Feel better? Wiki4fun 16:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, what are you comparing Emory to when you say its student culture is not conservative? I agree that its student body is less conservative than those of some schools. Perhaps apathetic, wealthy, and self-obsessed are more accurate?

I'm combatting people who try to distort this article to be either anti-Emory or pro-Emory either way. It's an encyclopedia after all. It should be balanced and fair on BOTH sides (again, see the header here) and you've clearly gone off the deep end. I was there as an undegrad from 1996-2000, and I knew several motivated and altruistic individuals. You must just have never connected with them. There was Alpha Phi Omega, the co-ed service group, which numbered about 120 active members at any given time, and then there was Volunteer Emory which included another 150 members. Maybe you're a bit self-obsessed with your view of Emory as being the only reality out there. Chill man. Let your axe go. Wiki4fun 16:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

In the end, I accept that we have different interps of the student culture. That doesn't make it OK to use the article as an advertising site (nor as an ax-grinding site). --Chickensoda 06:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's where I agree with you... and if you'll see the edits under Wiki4fun, they're striving not to be pro- or anti- anything, just the facts. Wiki4fun 16:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, read through the archives of the Wheel online (there's a dead-on piece when you search for "Emory apathy" that comes up in the first couple pages of results, with a title like "Why Activism is Really Dead at Emory" or something), and you'll find some interesting stuff on student culture. --Chickensoda 06:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Chicken -- I've been at Emory from 1996-2000. Then again as a PhD student in the last two years. I know its culture and I'm not saying that your perceptions aren't among some of the students there, but they are *not* representative of the student body as a whole and because you pick isolated bits of info and present them without a broader context, they're not proper for an encyclopedia article. Emory does have an active group of students who do volunteer and work with the community... about 300-400 odd members. I also did not come from a rich family (blue collar background) and was only able to attend Emory because of financial aid + scholarship. I recommend that if you have such an axe to grind against Emory, create a blog and you can *freely* write whatever you want on it. This is Misplaced Pages -- the 💕. Which means verifiable facts, not perceptions of reality. Understand the difference? Wiki4fun 16:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Chickensoda's concerns re: use of this article as an advertising site for Emory

I am bothered by some of the changes that have been made, and my recent revision attempts to include presentation of positive, negative, and most importantly, neutral data about Emory University. It appears to me that the page is being edited and skewed by those affiliated with Emory's recruitment office, as the site has become essentially an advertisement for the school. Some of my contributions that were specific and factual were removed. I restored those I thought should be restored, and deleted some overblown language.

Some questions:

What exactly is a "premier university"? Shouldn't we mention specifics, such as USNWR's ranking, rather than making blanket claims? And where exactly is Emory's commitment to the arts and humanities "renowned"? Specifics would be good.

I think others have mentioned that most of Emory's institutions fall into the top 20 in the nation for either U.S. News or Business Week. Is that acceptable as premier? Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

If you read the first paragraph, the use of "premier university" is justified. The USNWR's ranking is used as is BusinessWeek's. 170.140.70.254

Why did someone remove the data on Emory's racial composition, which is easily verifiable by looking at the school's website?

What's the goal of this? What's the context? To provide racial data with out comparing it to similar universities seems only to do one thing: disguise one-sided journalism by providing isolated facts. I'm not saying we trying and write "pro"-Emory or "anti"-Emory, but you're failing to be balanced in what's contained in the article. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Because you skewed the percentage to make Emory look less racially diverse than it is (you lumped Asians and Whites together, which is unfair and says a lot about what you consider to be "diverse"). If you go here, http://www.college.emory.edu/about/facts.html, the most recent data proves that 31% of the class of 2009 considers itself a part of one or more minority group. Furthermore, Emory is one of the most diverse private universities in the United States, and lack of African American male, Hispanic, and Native American enrollment is a problem all universities in America are facing, not just Emory. 170.140.70.254

Agreed -- by not providing the context for all universities having difficulty with recruiting more diverse student bodies, ChickenSoda incorrectly makes a reader perceive a fact in isolation, which is not balanced 67.35.9.19 01:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Why did someone remove the information that the Emory Village is the only nearby attraction to campus?

Because this seems to be boarding on being unbalanced. This is not eOpinions.com Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Because it didn't fit with the rest of the paragraph it was inserted in, and has little to do with student life, activities, and culture (this section should be retitled to just student life and activities). 170.140.70.254

Why did someone remove the info that the cost of attendence is about $40,000?

Because you did not mention how many students also receive financial aid. Because you said "most Emory students are from rich families" and I, personally, can attest my familar was not rich nor the stuck-up-snobs you seem to believe most Emory students are. They were blue collar U.S. citizens who earned no more than $60,000 of combined salary at the time I attended school. And I also know I was not an isolated event at Emory. You do what Fox News does as a wonderful job of pseudo-journalism... you pick isolated facts and present them without context. Are some Emory students rich, yes. Are they all rich, no. Are most rich == prove it, because you're wrong. I might recommend you try taking a course in Journalism 101. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

This should be added, but the amount of students receiving financial aid should also be noted in my opinion. 170.140.70.254

Concur, as a lot of students are receiving financial aid. 67.35.9.19 01:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who has been a student at Emory has heard of "the Emory apathy," unless things have done a huge 180 in the past few years - why was this taken out?

Again, is this apathy any different at other major campuses? Provide context for your facts. Yes, are their articles on Emory apathy -- yes... but quite frankly that just seems to show how naive the students are that their apathy isn't limited to just their institution, but in part widespread among most private universities where there are sufficient students to exist in a "bubble".

Also, to the individual who cites 50+ articles on the Emory Wheel for the keyword "Emory apathy", you should know that there are 70+ articles on the Emory Wheel for the keyword "Emory activism". Isolated facts do not make for informed reading.

I find this to be a subjective opinion. Apathy is no doubt a problem, but I do not think it is unique to Emory. Thus, it doesn't seem necessary to mention on Emory's Wiki page. Furthermore, Emory's student body has become more active in recent years, and having recently graduated from the College, I am well aware of this increase in activism (and it's not only in student government). 170.140.70.254

Agreed -- by not providing the context whether or not all universities are having this same difficulty, a fact is isolation is not fair and balanced, but bad reporting. 67.35.9.19 01:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyone who has been a student at Emory knows that activism is virtually nonexistent on campus - why was this taken out?

See my answer above. 170.140.70.254

Where is the data that 70% of Emory students are volunteers coming from? Where is the data that 60% of students study abroad coming from? A source would be good -- seems like this would be easy to prove, as it's a statistical claim.

You're right, these too should be defended. Whomever posted them should provide a verifiable reference.

This has been taken out until it is verified. 170.140.70.254

Where is the data that 60% of students study abroad coming from? A source would be good - seems like this would be easy to prove, as it's a statistical claim.

It looks like it should be 40% -- http://icis.emory.edu/announcements/archives/CIPA_Spring_06.pdf, but has already been taken out. I will add it back, as it is now verifiable. 170.140.70.254

Yay for verification and providing facts in a broad context. More of this is good!  :) 67.35.9.19 01:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

WHY THIS MATTERS: I suppose I'm really bothered by the way this article is being skewed because I went to Emory and was demoralized by the extremely apathetic, self-interested, and privileged student culture there. A lot of the changes that have been made seem not informational in nature, but rather designed to portray the school in the most glowing light possible.

I do notice some anonymous edits coming from 170.140.*.* which would indeed be Emory ResNet domains. I think you are right in asking that they be defended just as I am asking you to defend your Emory attack light. You're just as guilty, if not more, as whomever is posting from 170.140.*.* that you're skewing the article too... be careful. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Who killed himself in the late 1990s there, after frequently discussing his growing alientation from the wealthy and self-centered student culture, nor for Chris McCandless, who died in Alaska after attending Emory.

Um, are you saying Chris McCandless died in Alaska because of Emory apathy? I don't think that's a correct interpretation. I assume you read "Into the Woods" -- he died because of either a mental illness or a lack of intelligence that he was near a major road and could indeed have survived.

There is something of a problem here, because the eighth-richest university in the US is obviously a lot better at publishing things about itself than are students who are addressing problems with the school. How can this disparity be addressed?

I was there as an undegrad from 1996-2000, and I knew several motivated and altruistic individuals. You must just have never connected with them. There was Alpha Phi Omega, the co-ed service group, which numbered about 120 active members at any given time, and then there was Volunteer Emory which included another 150 members. Finally, I was Chair of Emory's Habitat for Humanity Chapter and we had membership of about 100 members. So you must have had a completely different Emory experience then me. Oh, and I received Emory's Humanitarian Award in 2000 from President Chase for my volunteer efforts, so the University does annually recognize those students who are active. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Deliberately skewing information to make it sound like a cultural environment that it is not might be a priorty of people working for the recruitment office, but it threatens real harm to people who read this article and take away distorted info.

Amen. I agree with you 100% on this and we should be careful not to be too kind nor too attacking. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Though I do not agree with the extent to which this writer disapproves of Emory University, "Emory apathy" is widespread and well-known among the students. A 1999 focus group published on the Emory website itself identified apathy as one of the major problems facing the student body. It is frequently referenced by faculty and staff in public media, and by the Wheel in articles and editorials. "Emory apathy" is probably the most famous aspect of student culture at the University. 209.214.230.142 20:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I was part of that focus group. See earlier comments above about my involvement with Volunteer Emory, Emory's Habitat for Humanity, and Alpha Phi Omega at Emory. The focus group wasn't saying all of Emory was apathetic, nor that there was just a small minority that were active -- but rather how to expand the involvement of activity to ideally include 80-90% of campus. That said, while I was on that focus group, my thoughts were how many other institutions also have similar apathy? I always though the label of "Emory apathy" was ironic because it demonstrated not apathy, but self-centeredness. Thoughts that Emory's student should be different, less apathetic, than other 18-22 year olds who -- quite frankly -- generally living in an isolated bubble at that age. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with the above statements. I noticed a lot of questionable edits being made in the last few days from anonymous IPs and when I looked them up, I got returns from Atlanta and the Emory campus itself. Although anybody with good knowledge and solid facts is encouraged to edit, I also fear that this article has recently begun to resemble an advertisement from the admissions office.

Chickensoda, I agree with the first five of your points in your original post and feel they should be immediately re-added to the article but I think the final two need solid, verifiable sources to be included. I also think the vague language which paints the school in a positive light should be replaced and backed up by facts and publications. I'll try to do some editing where possible. Nrbelex 02:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Concur 100%. Balance needs to be struck.

(1) On financial aid documents distributed in June, Emory University lists the Cost of Attendance for the 2006-2007 academic year as $44,844.00. Of this, $32,506.00 is tuition.

That's great -- now how many students received scholarships? And how many received Federal financial aid? That is, how many students actually paid this full amount. I know for the Goizueta Business School over 50% of the MBA students receive some form of financial aid.

According to the Princeton Review here, 38% percent of undergraduates receive need-based financial aid and the average freshman total need-based gift aid is $21,616. These facts should not be failed to be mentioned, as they are important to a prospective student in calculating what his or her actual costs will be. 170.140.70.254

Yay for verification and providing facts in a broad context. More of this is good!  :) 67.35.9.19 01:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

(2) A search for "Emory apathy" on The Emory Wheel's website (www.emorywheel.com) produced 58 hits on published articles.

Also, to the individual who cites 50+ articles on the Emory Wheel for the keyword "Emory apathy", you should know that there are 70+ articles on the Emory Wheel for the keyword "Emory activism". Isolated facts do not make for informed reading. Wiki4fun 00:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Searching Wash U's student newspaper's website for "student apathy" yeilded 26 results (Student Life) and at Harvard's student newspaper's website (The Harvard Crimson), "student apathy" yeilded 136 results. Does that mean student apathy should be mentioned on their Misplaced Pages pages as well -- in addition to countless other universities in the US? 170.140.70.254

Kudos for providing context. 67.35.9.19 01:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Emory Apathy was such a common term on campus when I attended that it never occurred to me to compare this to other universities. Thanks for the context. However, I still recommend it receive a mention, since it is so common a conception. Perhaps stating that Emory students are commonly _perceived_ as apathetic by the student body and/or faculty. 209.214.230.142 17:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ideas for Additions or Improvements

entire website only serves as a guide for people working within Emory on how to properly use Emory's symbols in publications. Because we have a valid fair-use tag for the images already, I think it may be best if we remove the added text which is a little confusing unless you have been given permission. Respond to me on either my talk page or here before any changes are made. Again, thanks for helping out with the article so much. Nrbelex 16:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

Is this logo copyrighted? -- Zoe

Probably. But it probably also is being used under fair use. --mav

Would anyone else like to see this article conform to the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Universities proposal for formatting? Right now, this article is well-written with good info, but it's tough to navigate. Formatting would require some major editing and moving paragraphs around, but I think it would be worth it. --User:Sayeth May 9, 2004

It's now using this template 68.211.149.176 15:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I see that there is no "Campus" section as per the WikiProject Universities template. Also, the Points of Interest section (which contained one item, but to which I planned to add over the rest of the summer) has been dropped. Is there any plan to add a Campus section that may or may not contain Points of Interest? 209.214.230.142 20:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Emory Seal

According to this page, the seal listed here is not the Emory seal. In fact, it is explicitly stated that it is the President's seal and "was designed specifically for use by the Office of the President and appears only on documents and ceremonial materials produced by that office." Unfortunately, the correct one on that site is of low quality. Any suggestions? Nrbelex 07:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and uploaded it. It doesn't look very good but it is the right seal. Nrbelex 22:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Dooley's Week

During Dooley’s Week, if Dooley (a skeleton character that serves as Emory’s other mascot) and his entourage come into your class and spray your teacher with a water gun, that class is dismissed.

While this is true, when I attended 10+ years ago, this practice was somewhat contested. Some classes, particularly the intensive science courses like Organic Chem, did not want to be dismissed - especially when exams or in-class tests were approaching. I believe that "Dooley" now checks with professors ahead of time before dismissing their class. 209.214.230.142 18:08, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Image for infobox

In the past few days I've seen a number of changes to the Emory picture in the infobox. It started as Image:Emory.jpeg, became Image:Emory Crest.gif and is now Image:Emory Shield.gif. If you follow the WikiProject Universities template, a "seal" with the school's motto and year of creation should be displayed. This can be seen at the University of Michigan page which is featured. However Emory lacks this type of seal and the closest thing to is Image:Emory Crest.gif. This type of image can be seen at places like Harvard University and Duke University. I think before the picture is changed again, we should come to a consensus here as to what should be displayed. Nrbelex 17:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

To whomever changed the image again... please stop. Image:Emory Crest.gif is the most similar to all the other school's symbols in their infoboxes as it includes the school's latin phrase and the school's "coat of arms". Nrbelex 02:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Nrbelex, I completely agree with you. You thought I changed it from the crest back to the shield, but in fact, I was replacing the shield with the crest. The reason people are not allowing the crest to be used, even though it is quite akin to what other schools use and is Emory's official university crest, is that it violates Emory's web identity rules (found at http://identity.emory.edu). Again, I think the crest should be used (it looks much cooler and has the latin motto), and have tried replacing the shield with it, but somebody with an Emory IP keeps replacing it (repeatedly) ... so I have just given up. 170.140.70.254

On second thought, Image:Emory Seal.gif is the most appropriate for the infobox but given our current copy's quality, I think we're better off with what there is now. Can any of the contributors (especially those on the campus - I know there are some of you) think of a way to get Emory to release a higher resolution image of the seal for use here? If given permission and a higher quality image, we could post it with Template:withpermission combined with a fair use rationale. Perhaps somebody could inform the Emory Identity staff that most of Emory's competitors have higher quality images on their pages compared with Emory's...? Nrbelex 00:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem is, there is a blanket statement on use of the seal and similar items: "The President's seal (A) was designed specifially for use by the Office of the President and appears only on documents and ceremonial materials produced by that office. The University crest (C) is used for special commemorative applications only. The use of these two graphics, as well as the University seal (B) is restricted and must be approved by the Secretary of the University or the Office of the President." The way I read it, I don't even think we can claim fair use on the crest, especially since there is a preferred identifying logo that Emory would rather have on the article. —C.Fred (talk) 04:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

The leadership of Emory University has designated their official symbol to be the name over the shield. Harvard and other institutions do not have a symbol that is ubiquitous for the entire institution, and Emory does, and that is what we want to use. Misplaced Pages is most effective when the information is closest to the truth and to display our symbol as anything but the shield is incorrect, and confusing to any one who comes in contact with Emory thought the publications, the website, the media, or the campus. At each of these locations the shield is the only image. ljhenry