Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:20, 14 August 2015

Notes Normal humans: I'm not online very often these days, and when I am, I don't have much stomach for anything complicated, stressful, depressing, or time consuming. You probably should ask another admin if you need something that will take more than a few minutes, that you need done soon, or that will require more than minimal thought. Admins: I'm not online very often these days, so if you think an admin action I've taken is wrong or no longer useful, go ahead and undo or change it without feeling like you have to talk to me first. WP:SOLVED WP:LIGHTBULB WP:VOGONS WP:BEDFELLOWS

Archives Year Zero: 13 Aug 2008 - 12 Aug 2009 Year One:13 Aug 2009 - 12 Aug 2010 Year Two:13 Aug 2010 - 12 Aug 2011 Year Three:13 Aug 2011- 12 Aug 2012 Year Four:13 Aug 2012- 12 Aug 2013 Year Five:13 Aug 2013- 12 Aug 2014 Year Six:13 Aug 2014 - 23 December 2024 This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

I'm sorry...

...because there's no way this is not going to seem like sucking up to you, but I just can't help reiterating how impressed I am with your ability to cut through the crap and utilize your common sense to get to the core of a messy situation, while others -- myself very much included -- fail to see things clearly. If you ever end up blocking me, I'm gonna know that I damn well deserved to be blocked, that's for sure. BMK (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I thought I was the "cut the crap" guy, but clearly i failed to see the forest throught he troll yesterday. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:36, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

You did nothing wrong. I thought your proposed sanctions were a very reasonable thing to do, and I supported them, but the guy kept on and on, and the more he did, the ranker the air became. Assuming that Floquenbeam got it right (which I think he did), it's amazing how often trolls dig their own graves just by not shutting up -- but I suppose the attention is part of the psychology. BMK (talk) 17:59, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox:, I don't think it was 100% obvious yesterday, and your sanctions made perfect sense. It was the interaction with Citywhatever that sealed the deal, which you didn't know about yesterday. @Beyond My Ken:, does this mean that you agree to be ready to hear my interpretation of your behavior and submit to my supervision of your activities? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:45, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Ooooh, ouch. No, I don't think I'm quite ready to go there yet, sorry. <g> BMK (talk) 19:05, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Having encountered TEOATW before all the drama and tried to give them what guidance I could, I happen to disagree with your intuitive evaluation of the situation. But I'm new, and haven't had to deal with disruptive users much. So I'd like to express my categorical gratitude for the stress you admins put yourselves through for the sake of the project.

If, per a desire to AGF and present the better aspects of the community to new(ly appeared) users, I don't mind finding myself trolled from time to time, do you have advice on what to say to similar users in future? (what I did say pre-ANI: ). FourViolas (talk) 03:44, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

First, it wasn't an "intuitive evaluation". Second, I'm unclear what you're asking, but if you want my advice on how to handle over-eager editors in general, I'd suggest emphasizing that they need to slow down and listen to others, before they wear out their welcome. First by advice, then by warnings if necessary. After a while, it doesn't matter what a bull's intentions are, you still need to get them out of the china shop. This is not some uniquely Wikipedian cruelty; there are not many places that would tolerate disruption for 7 days straight, especially once it became clear that the user was being disruptive on purpose. Indeed, the uniquely Wikipedian aspect is that some people think we should have let it continue, in spite of pretty overwhelming evidence that we were being trolled, just on the off chance that they were, instead, incompetent. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, that was what I was trying to ask. I won't challenge the assertion that it was ever obvious they were intending to be disruptive, because I don't see how that would help improve policies in this area. Instead, would you mind suggesting some rules of thumb for distinguishing usefully eager young users from dangerously eager ones, or do I need to develop my own judgement from experience? FourViolas (talk) 15:54, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

It's certainly not a bright line, where behavior just to one side is enthusiastic newbie and just to the other side is trolling. In general, I usually start out on the "assuming the best" end of the spectrum, but that can shift further towards the other end of the spectrum when you see various things. Examples of evidence that causes me to start getting more and more suspicious that this is a returning troublemaker include:

• When a newbie starts patronizing and lecturing an established editor about how things work around here; bonus points if they're really wrong about how they actually work.
• When a newbie demands that everyone assume good faith about them; bonus points if they bluelink it.
• When a newbie disrupts one area, gets told to knock it off, and immediately jumps to another area and disrupts that; bonus points if they do this in 4-5 areas in succesion.
• When a newbie has the "bad luck" to immediately wade into a highly contentious area with a history of socking/SPA's; bonus points if they soon note that they've been reading up on past conflicts and understand why they're viewed with suspicion, "but really guys, I'm innocent."

Among other things. YMMV. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Belated note: "Bonus points if they bluelink it". Compare Misplaced Pages: Don't link to WP:AGF (But do link to that essay, and feel free to improve it and/or to write compliments on the talkpage. Nobody has ever done either of those! Bishonen | talk 16:29, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

What seems better to express your mood: my heart swims in blood or spirit and soul become confused? The latter needs a GA review the sooner the better ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:38, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

I like the swimming in blood. Thanks for noticing. Bishonen | talk 20:17, 11 August 2015 (UTC).

• This is another "hunchy" thing, but that username was also a  Redflag. Although not a violation of the username policy, I don't believe I have ever seen a user, good faith or bad, with a username like that that was any kind of help around here. Anyone who proclaims themselves an expert when creating their account, without ever having even made an edit is going to run into problems sooner rather than later, usually ending just like this did. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:05, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Back when I was an arbitration clerk, the Committee banned an editor named User:Fairness And Accuracy For All. So I was required to post all over the website that "Fairness And Accuracy For All is banned from Misplaced Pages for a period of one year." I was always glad certain people never got hold of that one.... Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:04, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

• Another rule of thumb, somewhat related to the incident Brad just mentioned, concerns editors who put "truth" or its variations in their usernames. There's a high degree of probability not that they're socks or trolls necessarily, but that they're here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and push a distinctive POV. The first steps there are to point out that Misplaced Pages is not based on "truth" it's based on verifiable facts which have the proper weight and are backed by citations from reliable sources. This usually fails to convince, and the final result is almost inevitable, although I don't doubt that we still have some active users with "truth" in their names. BMK (talk) 22:46, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks all. I'll keep those principles in mind. FourViolas (talk) 12:09, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• @NYB This was always my favourite block log entry. ‑ iridescent 16:46, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

ANI thread

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Improper blocks by Floquenbeam. Thank you. DES 18:13, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Emergency block request

I need to make an emergency block request for User:209.207.47.87 because they are continuing to vandalize at a rapid rate. Studentaccountantghost4 (talk) 18:51, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, busy defending my outrageous behavior in various fora. Looks like Bosh took care of it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:09, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I did. Thank you for sounding the alert, Studentaccountantghost4. Another time, it may be quicker to report to WP:AIV, which is well watched and won't crumble just because Floquenbeam is busy filing his nails. Bash·Båsch. 19:23, 9 August 2015 (UTC).

A kitten for you!

This kitten is good at sniffing. Thanks for making this place suck less.

Drmies (talk) 23:31, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

+ 1. And I hope you enoy(ed) the sunshine. - Sitush (talk) 23:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks you two. I did indeed enjoy the sunshine. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Being Nice

Please be nice on Misplaced Pages. You called someone a jerk as seen on this page User_talk:Unframboise. Thank you. Snowycats (talk) 01:19, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedians are so silly. --Floquenbeam (talk) 01:20, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. What more can I say? --Drmargi (talk) 05:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

(watching) I am sorry but I also just used the word silly (examples in the history of that page, among others) ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:47, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Cityside189

I saw your notes on the TEoATW's SPI archive and on Cityside's talk page. I'll be interested to see what their response is, and to see if they walk the straight and narrow if unblocked. Coincidences happen, of course, but trolls can also be clever as well. I thought your offer was generous, but understandable given the circumstances. BMK (talk) 16:38, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I have a feeling I just fucked things up even further, but I couldn't very well leave things as they were when I lost faith in the original linkage to TEoatW. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:25, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

ANI

You were right and you shouldn't have self reverted. Sorry, I need to get a grip. --Rubbish computer 17:30, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@Rubbish computer: No, I should have self reverted, and better yet, shouldn't have hit save in the first place. But you're right that you need to get a grip; that's really small potatoes, what you're complaining about. I am not WilyD's biggest fan; if there was something there, I wouldn't have tried to sweep it under a rug. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I should know about thinking it through before you hit the Save button, I guess. I've got rid of the thread, as it seems resolved: am I allowed to do that? Thanks, --Rubbish computer 17:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Technically, no, but practically, kind of, assuming no one complains. I was the only other person to comment in the thread, and I don't object. You might leave a "nevermind" note on WilyD's talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I have done. Thanks, --Rubbish computer 17:39, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Am I going to get blocked for being uncivil? --Rubbish computer 17:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

No. Relax. You might want to take a break, though. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to keep coming back, but why do you say that? --Rubbish computer 17:48, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Because you seem to be pretty stressed out. A break, even of a few hours, can bring perspective. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:49, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Good point. --Rubbish computer 17:50, 12 August 2015 (UTC) How do you log out on mobile? --Rubbish computer 18:25, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

LOL, I have a problem *logging in* to mobile, so I'm not the person to ask! I'm not even sure there is a way. But there's nothing wrong with staying logged in but ignoring it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay. It's just, I'm sure I intentionally logged out on mobile before. Thanks, --Rubbish computer 18:30, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

When you tap the sidebar on the main page, it's a button to the right of your username. --Rubbish computer 19:01, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Ha! I didn't see that button because the stupid site had already logged me out again! I see it now. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Give them Rope

Well the madness continues, as time goes on I've admired more and more that you cut through bullshit. Would you do some bullshit cutting again? Administrative actions are not required but a comment or two on the discussion wouldn't be amiss. WP:ROPE talk page. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Ugh. It's just so silly. I was almost tempted to pretend I'd logged off, but OK, I get you confused with another editor but I have a faint recollection that I did you (or a similarly named editor) wrong some point in the past and probably owe you one. Either that, or you did me wrong, so doing this would increase my good karma. So, OK, I'll comment. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Well you did tell me fuck off but this was after me accusing you of socking so that was mostly on me. Either way I have been watching and I have found a respect for your actions. Thanks Hell in a Bucket (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh yeah. Sorry about that. I'm not sure I can be too useful, actually. It might seem silly to you, but I don't really have a problem with the requested move discussion. In the mean time, the article is close to it's old pre-blowup title (I moved the talk page archive), and the text is close to it's original pre-blowup text, so everything seems to be progressing along. Just have patience and let the RM run it's course, I think the results of that will pretty much solve 90% of the question over the wording of the text. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok I wasn't saying you should intervene just give an opinion on the subject. I find it to be petty personally. But all is well that ends well, water under the bridge thanks. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see. I don't think I have an opinion to give; certainly not a strong enough opinion to make it worthwhile to wade into that. Might go more smoothly for everyone if you and Alakzi kind of backed off each other, though, and since A seems kind of heated right now, that might be up to you... --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:21, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

yeah not much to keep going on at this point my head hurts and the wall aint breaking I think i'm done with them. ;) Hell in a Bucket (talk) 19:23, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

New sock of The Editor of All Things Misplaced Pages

Since you blocked TEoATW at SPI, I thought I'd give you a heads up: he's back, telling everyone what to do, and playing pseudo-problem solver in the guise of one Glacialfrost. There's a new filing at SPI if you were inclined to take a look. The behavioral evidence is pretty strong, and the new sock is from California, as are TEoATW and his already identified sock. He's also back in Cityside189's orbit, and giving him some difficulty, I gather from this discussion. Thanks! --Drmargi (talk) 19:16, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Got email notification of your talk page message, but spent *way* too much time on WP yesterday, no time for it today. Sorry. If it's at SPI someone should be along to help soon. Another intersection of TEoatW with Cityside would be... interesting. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:33, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

No prob. While I was here, NewyorkBrad requested a CU, so it should get handled with some dispatch. Meanwhile, GF is calling me all manner of meanie at SPI. It is not my week. --Drmargi (talk) 19:44, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I've commented there briefly. Looks like a false alarm. Something actually still seems "off", to be honest, but you can drive yourself crazy chasing shadows. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I understand the position you're in, and better to give a (putative) newbie the benefit of the doubt, although the little twerp better stay away from me. I do think the behavioral evidence is compelling, but he's probably registered from another IP and will teflon out absent a body of edits. There are some "tells" in his writing, too, but I'll keep them for later. He'll slip up again. --Drmargi (talk) 22:51, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Please do not call me a twerp. Leave me alone too. Glacialfrost (talk) 22:56, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

You set the tone. Don't put it out there if you can't take the heat for it. --Drmargi (talk) 02:59, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

for having some common sense. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:55, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. That RM discussion is a trainwreck and is turning everyone crazy. @Opabinia regalis: Can I ask, do you know Alakzi well? I'd love for a friend to talk them down a little. I'm going to unblock for socking, and I don't think I want to reduce it, I'd much rather just undo it, but some of their comments are pretty far over the top. Been there myself once or twice (well, not quite that far over), but having to reblock in a few hours would just ruin my day. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative not punitive if the behaviors change then the block served it purpose, LHVU said indef blocks only are kept until they are not needed and just because the time isn't set doesn't mean it can't be short. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 00:03, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Hey, while you're here, HiaB, could you dial it back a little too? --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:05, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Heh, your edit summary sounds like pro Bono advice. - Sitush (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2015 (UTC)  NQ likes this.

That's how my daughter writes now; everything is text-speak. I guess it's rubbing off. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:10, 14 August 2015 (UTC) D'oh, and it took me a full 1:30 to get the joke. --Floquenbeam (talk) 00:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to respond as I have been pretty calm in this whole thing and the behaviors spewed right now are at everyone, I'm vocal in calling the bullshit.I'm going to assume you are familiar with the ANI, the new redirect deletion discussion the whole nine yards but I will admit to a bit of surprise but knowing my own temperate may well be needed. I'll give it some thought but I don't make a promise I'll agree with the conclusion. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 00:10, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

And more thanks for unblocking (with an excellent reason, too ;) This is why I never get involved with block drama - I'm a day late and a dollar short for everything. I don't know how well you know anybody on the internet but we've worked well together where we've overlapped, I like the guy, and, well, I have sympathy for the anti-authoritarian dynamic. Thank you for de-escalating this. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:58, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

(ec) Thank you, I never passed a black barnstar but woke up thinking I might, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:13, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry floq but this is some straight bullshit. You unblocked for edits like ], or this pointy addition? These helpful and constructive edits ], ].?? Hell in a Bucket (talk) 12:41, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Do you have anything actually useful to do? When two people are fighting, one of them because they're angry, the other because it's fun to argue with angry people, I tend to instinctively sympathize more with the angry person. If they end up getting blocked, well, I did what I could. But in a perfect world, there'd be a "baiting" block for someone along with it. --Floquenbeam (talk) 12:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I did what you asked, I backed off. Those again are not my edits, nor did I play a hand in them. If they continue I intend to do another ANI, I wanted you to at least see part of the issue you started with the unilateral unblock. I'll let the chips fall where they will when that happens. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 12:49, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

No, you didn't. --Floquenbeam (talk) 12:50, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, fundemental disagreement apparently. Like I say if it continues it will be back at ANI, I don't plan on engaging them or even warning them. I came back to you as I thought it most appropriate first since you were the unblocking admin but apparently that is not the route to go. Thank you for your time. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 12:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

Floquenbeam, thank you for this: . As problematic as his recent dispute interactions have been, an indefinite block strikes me as a relatively unfair outcome that was driven by several editors with whom Alakzi has been in recent heated disputes. Even if checkuser shows actual sock-puppetry -- and I hope it doesn't -- there is still a missing element of wrong-doing required for an indefinite block. As I said on the SPI talk page, I really want to help this guy, but I don't know how to do so given the limitations of interacting through Misplaced Pages talk pages. He is a genuine talent, and I would be saddened if the project lost him. *sigh* Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:57, 13 August 2015 (UTC) And, yes, I am mindful of the last time you and I stuck out our necks in the interest of giving a blocked editor the benefit of the doubt. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:57, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Ugh. Whatever their problem is, whoever they are, this person is rapidly turning into their own worst enemy . They just. can't. let. anything. go. Beeblebrox (talk) 15:10, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I wish the SPI hadn't been filed. But it was, and I haven't yet figured out a way to reverse time and undo it. I can think of nothing further to do to try to help anyone on either side, so I guess I'll have to settle for a dissatidfying "I tried". It would be fantastic if people in conflict with each other just ignored each other, but that's not how things work here. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:16, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll let go when you apologise, you insufferable scum. Alakzi (talk) 15:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)