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August 19

Do Muslims focus on advertising or proselytizing in Muslim-majority countries?

I know Christians certainly do. If it's not proselytizing, then it's advertising on flyers, telling people about so-and-so church. I know Islam spreads by conversions, births, and marriages, but do Muslims advertise their religion on flyers? Christians sometimes even proselytize each other! Do different Muslim sects proselytize each other too? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 03:05, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

In many countries there are special Islamic TV channels and radio stations. Don't forget about the internet. --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:40, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Short answer, yes, sometimes. See Islamic missionary activity and Dawah. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:53, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

And love bombing Love Jihad, fake love to get Hindu girls (say) converted to Islam. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't suppose you have a reliable source for that? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

My apologies, the almost identical broader term love bombing threw me off. I would've never guessed it'd be called a name with the unflattering connotations of Love Jihad. Some Muslims deny an organized campaign but there's 1 billion people in India so it must've happened before. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:36, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

"... the me off"? -- Jack of Oz 21:54, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

"threw me off". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:07, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like the OP is interested in activites used resonably regularly, not just random activities a small number of people may have done. After all, anyone can come up with some random activity, like getting super fit in a gym and then approaching people who are clearly struggling with weight issues and telling them god really helped them to get so fit. It's not clear how this helps the OP. And yes, Love Jihad basically is a such a random activity because our article suggests it's not just Muslims who deny it's any sort of campaign, but pretty much anyone who's actually looked at the evidence.

(Of course inter-faith marriages do happen. Given that many intepretations of Islam have a strong discouragement against apostasy and are also somewhat patriarchal nature including the allowance for certain interfaith marriages where the man is Muslim but the female is not, but the general disallowance for interfaith marriages where the man is non-Muslim and the female is Muslim. And also the fairly patriarchal nature of much of India and the history of arranged marriages, it may very well be that interfaith relationships where the male is Muslim and the female is not are more common then the reverse, whether or not the eventually lead to conversion. But that doesn't go any way to proving any sort of organised campaign or tactic.)

P.S. India isn't a Muslim majority country.

Nil Einne (talk) 04:17, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Pakistan is. And is in the article. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

"Love Jihad" is the sort of the equivalent of Mexicans coming to steal your jobs in the US. India also has right-wing nationalist reactionary bullshitters, but they are Hindu fundamentalists instead of Christians. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

If it's like that then then it must be a non-issue. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:13, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Coins with hole

Why don't they dominate all around the world? I think they have many advantages over traditional coins:

• less weight;
• less cost of production (less metal needed);
• much useful and handy: you can carry them either simply on a rope or with some device like a special ring or pin, anyway you can put them into the pocket after that if you want, and they are much less likely to be scattered and lost;
• also different shapes of the holes could be used to differentiate the values, for example, round holes for 1¤, 10¤, 100¤, square holes for 5¤, 50¤, 500¤, and even triangle holes for, say, 25¤ or 15¤;
• more difficult to counterfeit.

They might require a little more technical production line (you need to create a hole), but is it more troublesome than making washers? There have been such coins (1, 2) throughout the history (particularly in China), but today it looks like only two Japanese yen holed coins (¥5 and ¥50) and the Phillipine 5 centimo coin remain.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:34, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

See experience of Micronesians with Rai stones (please lend a hand, right):

• more weight
• more cost of production
• less useful and handy

Granted, more difficult to counterfeit -- Paulscrawl (talk) 09:06, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

What's the purpose of your not-so-funny-as-you-think comment? Trolling?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

C'mon, Lüboslóv, relax! I found it pretty funny and witty, because it alludes to the historic origin of coins with the value determined by mass. That also gives it a legitimate purpose: It exposes an unspoken assumption in your OP: If the diameter of the coin remains constant. It may make more sense to assume that the mass of metal remains the same, in which case the cost would go up, and either the diameter or the thickness would increase. — Sebastian 22:46, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

OK. But have the holed coins really bigger diameter/weight than the traditional ones? The contemporary Japanese ¥5 and ¥50 coins are 22 mm/3.75 g and 21 mm/4 g, while ¥10 and ¥100 are 23.5 mm/4.5 g and 22.6 mm/4.8 g.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:39, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, geometrically, they have less volume/(diameter*thickness), so if they use the same metal or alloy, they must weigh a bit less. But that isn't that much; if the hole is 1/5 the diameter, its volume change will be 1/25, which, I presume, is in the order of magnitude of thickness variations depending on what pattern is minted. — Sebastian 01:22, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I see your points but coin counterfeiting (of circulating coins) isn't done near as much as counterfeiting of paper money. After all, the profit margin on minting coins is very low, therefore you'd have to make quite a few of them... and then find some way to launder them. One great disadvantage of putting a hole in a coin is that it limits the design that you can put on the coin. No longer would you be able to have a large profile of someone's head. And that is something that every country, to my knowledge, has done. It's a very well worn tradition. Dismas| 09:56, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Counterfeiting was my last and least important point. I wanted to say that I don't think that modern circulating coins are massively counterfeited, but then deleted. Anyway, I personally do not care who or what would be on everyday used coins, the denomination (1¤, 10¤ etc.) and the issue information (the year, the name of the bank) are more than enough for me and, I believe, for everybody. Who wants funny design, that buys collection coins. My main concern was the usefulness in everyday usage. The state may think about money saving during the production of money (pun) also.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:05, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

"No longer would you be able to have a large profile of someone's head. And that is something that every country, to my knowledge, has done." -- Coins of the Republic of Ireland. jnestorius 22:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

• Except when the profile is of someone who was assassinated. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Unless you are using precious-metal coins, I'm sceptical that the savings from having a hole would outweigh the cost of making the hole (machinary to punch the hole, and then collecting and recycling the material). Iapetus (talk) 11:05, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Except precious metal coins are worth more in "melt weight" value than in face value, in the modern economy. That is, it makes little sense to counterfeit a modern American gold eagle coin, with a face value of $50, when the gold itself is worth much more than that. A 1 ounce lump of gold is worth over $1000. --Jayron32 17:54, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

And of course (as I should have realised), in a traditional-style commodity-money currency, the value of a coin depends on the amount of precious metal in it. Iapetus (talk) 10:49, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Funny thing, from the mintage table from the article I've just calculated that there should be nearly 650 metric tons of gold in circulation (or rather carefully stored in collections).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:19, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Governments don't save money by putting holes in coins, they debase the currency. Gold coins turned to paper, the silver in silver coins dropped to 50% in 1920 and zero in 1947. Then a few years ago a coin came into contact with a magnet and after a little investigation I found that they are now made of copper - or cupro - nickel plated steel.

Holes don't stop counterfeiting. Even the little homily round the rim of pound coins doesn't stop it. Each one can be fabricated for fifty pence. That's why the proportion of fakes rose to one in seven and why the denomination is going to become dodecagonal soon. There's no problem with the two pound coin because the fakers can't reproduce the cupro - nickel plug which is in the middle of it. 86.138.233.41 (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Social situations

Why do social studies experts claim that it's better for people to say something than nothing at all as long as it's not controversial/offensive etc, even if it doesn't receive the best response? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.248.101.73 (talk) 11:55, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Which social studies experts say such a thing?DOR (HK) (talk) 13:56, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Please give us a reference. I find banal small talk particularly offensive. If you say nothing at all people may think you are socially inept, so why would you open your mouth and prove them right? 196.213.35.146 (talk) 14:25, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

As I recall, Lincoln said it more eloquently. And keep in mind that "small talk" is considered an "ice-breaker", and those who can do it have a decided social advantage. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Well it's still dumb when an astoundingly unattractive, large, conventional hag is enjoying sharing her extremely mundane job & life that she likes with the cashier and you wish you didn't know an adult could have such simple and boring thoughts. For example. If she's retirement age and still finds 90°F in August scintillating real interesting (85°F is July avg) then imagine her small talk when it's 100! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:28, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Just imagine what she might say about you. Beauty is only skin deep. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 02:04, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

See how dumb I am? I get my idea of what scintillating means from that ad with the ex-pets.com hand puppet and it's completely wrong. Please replace with "really interesting" or something.

In sorry but at my age I can't be attracted to a lady that age. At least if she's 40 she's usually OK or nice to look at but if the enthusiastic talker with the full cart is very old or male I might have no face or body to look at just to pass the time while I listen to the most boring life in the world. (If you're wondering: the tabloid faces usually don't interest me (except Jennifer Aniston). I don't look at my phone cause it's home charging.) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Philome Obin

Hi, can you tell me more about Philome Obin? He is a famous painter from Haiti, and also my long-lost grandfather. This is his grandson, Philip Robert Obin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.105.40 (talk) 19:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

See Philomé Obin for our article. Tevildo (talk) 21:03, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Who is this watercolor Artist Rathbun?

Dear sirs I have searched for years to find out who the artist was who painted the painting in the attached photos. My father purchased this painting over 50 years ago for $5 in a Chicago thrift shop. In 2011 I had the Atlanta Art Conservancy clean and seal the painting as is done for museum pieces with museum quality glass. It cost over $600 and when I went to pick it up they offered to buy the painting though no offer was discussing, and I immediately declined

In the nineties I googled a Rathbun who did water color illustration in the mid to late 1880's, but since then I have been unable relocate that connection. My father once took the painting to the Indianapolis Museum of Art, but they were unable to shed any light on the origin of the painting On the back of the painting is what appears to be a date written in large letters which is 1669. N either myself or the folks at the conservancy believe it is the date of this painting, although it could be reference to subject matter. The frame was so aged it was black.

So now, I turn to the great Oz of our time AKA Misplaced Pages and ask that the members of Misplaced Pages perform the impossible and identify this unidentifiable artist whom painted this beautiful piece. Yes this is a challenge no less. I hope this is the right venue for this request, but if not please forward to right group.

can provide pictures upon request, but apparently not on this format. am not having success creating a file either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Six Gun South (talk • contribs) 23:09, 19 August 2015‎

You have provide no link to any image, and without seeing the painting, it is unlikely we can help. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:33, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Six Gun South, you could upload the image(s) to an image-hosting website such as photobucket or imgur. Then you can provide a link here. People here have had quite good luck with these kinds of requests if they can see the picture. 184.147.128.46 (talk) 12:49, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

August 20

How much more work was making enough wampum to make a living?

Compared to making the living directly? It had to be less work to make the living directly, right? So was it like Step 1: someone who hates making food for some reason becomes a professional wampum maker. Step 2: Go around saying "Yo, I got some ill beadwork here, how much food will you give for it?" Step 3: Free food!? (Step 4: Yo, my moccasin broke, I need like a new shoe man, how much bead do you want for it? Step 5: My wife is like 8 months preggers, yo. Can you make baby clothes for me? Thanks man. I pay in bead. Step 6: My man artisan! My child is now old enough to use a spoon, how much bead do you want for one? Aw screw that, I'll just carve it myself.) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:52, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Just wait for the Dutch to come along, and go to work in one of their wampum factories. Fun for a few years, until the flood the market, devalue the currency, and crash the local economy. See the article titled Wampum. This book has a pretty decent chapter on Wampum, as does This article. --Jayron32 01:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

When I first heard of wampum in school that's exactly what I thought happened to it. Because, you know, it's just beads. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

And coins are just discs of metal. Really, money is just stuff that we declare to be worth something, and everyone accepts it. Beads as a medium exchange is no inherently better or worse than any other random, standardized trinket. --Jayron32 01:53, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

It's easier to make even with 1600s/1700s European tech, though. The Europeans thought they were buying Manhattan for trinkets. The Native Americans thought they were getting fair value for it (though at least they thought they were just letting them live there and not selling and leaving). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:45, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's a matter of an unsophisticated understanding of economics, probably on both sides. If there is an effective government control of the money supply, including both effective counterfeit controls, such as identifying markings, and an effective government monopoly on the production of the currency medium, there is no inherent reason why clamshell beads couldn't have been a successful form of currency. The reason it tanked isn't because the Europeans didn't value it (indeed, the Dutch understood its importance and conducted trade in Wampum as a currency very early on). It tanked for the same reason that Spain had to declare state Bankruptcy multiple times in the 16th century, a massive influx of currency (in Spain in the form of New World silver and gold, in the Northeaster North America, cheap and efficient Wampum manufacturing techniques) caused the currency value to plummet. Massive changes to the money supply leads to hyperinflation, which is basically what happened to Wampum as a currency medium. There's nothing inherent about the actual physical bead itself which makes it unsuitable for use as a currency, rather there was a problem with the lack of institutional control over its supply that led to its downfall. --Jayron32 10:29, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

As for any medium of exchange, there is a huge benefit in being free of the coincidence of wants. In addition, there probably is a benefit from division of labor. One person making wampum, two hunting, one preparing food, another making clothing and housing is probably more efficient than 5 people trying to be good at all of these tasks. — Sebastian 02:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Though of course all the visible easy gold being harvested a long time ago and having no one who does nothing but make money after that is even more efficient. And there would be little new gold until modern mining technique but if the wampum maker continues for millennia it should get more and more common unless some is destroyed. The same wampum is paying for the harvests that people buy year after year while the wampum maker is still making new wampum. Even if the string rots the wampum should survive cause the shells are still good and re-stringing is easy compared to making a new one. The European tech just caused that to happen quicker. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:45, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Do we know if there were dedicated wampum craftsmen? In pre-industrial societies, division of labor was much less pronounced. Certainly there was some specialization, but frequently you didn't have highly specialized hunters and farmers - most everyone hunted or farmed a little bit. There wasn't a specialized shoe-maker class, instead most everyone knew the rudiments of basic clothes and shoe making, even if it was well-known that certain people were much better at it than others. I'd expect the same from wampum manufacture. Likely, each family would spend some amount of their "free time" manufacturing wampum for trade purposes. Some would be poor at it (lots of cracked shells), and decide to focus more on hunting or clothes making, and some would be better at it and focus more on making wampum and get other necessities through trade. I'm not confident of it, but I somehow doubt that there was a dedicated "wampum maker" in the tribe in the same sense we think of professions today, unless it was considered a ceremonial role. (In which case it would be similar to the priest/medicine man/shaman/leader/headman roles regarding how they made a living.) -- 160.129.138.186 (talk) 18:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Philome Obin

Can you tell me more about Philome Obin? He was a famous painter from Haiti, and also my long-lost grandfather. This is Philip Robert Obin, his grandson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.105.40 (talk) 15:28, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Your previous question was answered yesterday. Please see above. --Thomprod (talk) 18:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Native Hawaiian suffrage

Was it ever considered to withhold native Hawaiian male suffrage in the Territory of Hawaii after annexation much like it was during the Republic of Hawaii?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

August 21

Why do runners from Kenya always dominate running races?

Why do runners from Kenya always seem to dominate running races? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:43, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Mostly the Kalenjin people of Kenya (see the Athletic prowess subsection). The NPR article "How One Kenyan Tribe Produces The World's Best Runners" suggests one genetic possibility - thin ankles and calves - or their high-starch diet, altitude at which they live or socioeconomics (whatever that means). Clarityfiend (talk) 07:43, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

They don't. Usain Bolt is not Kenyan and dominates the 100 metres.--Phil Holmes (talk) 08:08, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Kenyans dominate at certain distances, mostly 1,500 metres and up. Sprinters like Bolt need a completely different morphology to excel, and those distances are dominated by Caribbean and African-American runners whose origins are in West Africa. --Xuxl (talk) 11:59, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

"Why do runners from Kenya always seem to dominate running races?"—they don't. Taking the mens' distance events at the last Olympics as a reasonable baseline, the top three at the 1500m were Algerian, American and Moroccan; the top three at the 5000m were British, Ethiopian and Kenyan; the top three at the 10,000m were British, American and Ethiopian. It's only when you get to the marathon that you get more than one Kenyan in the top three, and even then it wasn't a Kenyan who won. (A Kenyan did win the men's 3000 metres steeplechase, but as our article correctly points out that's primarily because Kenya is one of the few countries in which steeplechasing is a significant sport, and runners in Europe, the US and other parts of Africa tend to train for different events.) ‑ iridescent 12:17, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Altitude is very significant. Training at high altitude forces the development of a denser network of capillaries, which in turn strengthens stamina. Socioeconomics and culture are probably even more significant. Kalenjin society has a (modern) tradition of training for runners and therefore some expertise. In addition, since the Kalenjin have few competing opportunities for professional success, talented runners who might have pursued careers in, say, medicine or finance in Europe or North America are instead much more likely to exploit their talent for running if they are Kenyan Kalenjin. Marco polo (talk) 14:13, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

See nature vs. nurture and understand it is both genetics and environment. Some people have a genetic predisposition towards having body types suited for long-distance running, for example the difference between fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles, or how muscles process glucose, or other biochemical or physiological factors that have a genetic basis. However, there's also training: people still need to train to run a marathon, and a well-trained runner with bad genetics will still beat the couch potato with the perfect genetics. That's where socioeconomics comes into play: People without job prospects in other domains of life will be more likely to go into athletics, as it provides the only path they have to bettering themselves, thus are more likely to train for such events. --Jayron32 14:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

As Kenya and Ethiopia share an enormous land border, some research has taken the two nationalities together: see Eight Reasons for Kenyan and Ethiopian Dominance which quotes research published in the International Journal of Sports Physiology and Performance undertaken by scientists from the United States Olympic Committee Athlete Performance Lab and the University of Glasgow. The findings are summarised in the linked report:

1. genetic predisposition;

2. development of a high maximal oxygen uptake as a result of extensive walking and running at an early age;

3. relatively high hemoglobin and hematocrit;

4. development of good metabolic “economy/efficiency” based on somatotype and lower limb characteristics;

5. favorable skeletal-muscle-fiber composition and oxidative enzyme profile;

6. traditional Kenyan/Ethiopian diet;

7. living and training at altitude;

8. motivation to achieve economic success.

That's what they say anyhow. Alansplodge (talk) 16:41, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

And to confirm East African domination of long distance running events; in the 10,000 metres final at the 2015 World Championships in Athletics in Beijing just a couple of hours ago, the finishing order was Great Britain (originally from Somalia), Kenya, Kenya, Kenya, USA, Eritrea, Turkey, Uganda, Uganda, Ethiopia. Alansplodge (talk) 15:18, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

British Currency Post-Elizabeth II

What will happen to British currency once the Queen pops her clogs? Her face is on all of it. Will it all be phased out and changed to pictures of Charles (who is already quite old, so it would only be a few years before it has to be changed to William's once again). Assuming it does have to change, how much would all this cost, in terms of minting new money and getting rid of the old cash? KägeTorä - (_虎) (もしもし！) 13:09, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm nearly certain that it wouldn't cost anything significant. Banknotes in circulation have a fairly short lifetime and when too worn are withdrawn on an individual basis as they pass through banks, and replaced by the Bank of England with newly printed notes.

When Charles ascends the throne, new notes from that date onward will begin to be issued. Obviously the redesign and new printing plates will cost something, but printing plates themselves wear out quite quickly, and there have already been several redesigns of the Queen's portrait as well as other design elements, both to reflect Her Majesty's appearance as she ages and to incorporate new security feature, etc.

The same does and will apply to coins, though they have a longer lifetime. As a child in the 1960's before decimalisation I used occasionally to find Queen Victoria pennies in my change. {The

(EC) Actually, per Banknotes of the pound sterling#The monarch on banknotes, her face isn't on all of it since Scottish and Northern Irish banknotes don't have it. Anyway this source does suggest new currency for those notes with her replacements face will be produced ASAP. It seems to imply the old notes will simply be removed from circulation the same way they normally are. The UK is fairly odd in the modern world in having several retail banks making the currency, but the Bank of England at least seems to follow most other central banks in producing a new series of notes (for security and other reasons) roughly every 10-20 years, so the actually production will only be ~0-20 years in advance. Nil Einne (talk) 13:54, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Also per the IP's point, we're only talking about the production of a new series of notes. In reality the notes themselves have to be replaced fairly often, although probably a bit less so if they do move to polymer bank notes (

When I were a lad in the 1960s, a pocketful of copper change would be a history lesson, in which you could see the faces of Elizabeth II, George VI, George V, Edward VII and (very worn) Victoria. It was only the introduction of that new-fangled Decimal currency in the 1970s that consigned all the old coppers to the smelting pot. So I'm certain that when Her Majesty (whom God preserve) eventually passes to higher service, her coins will outlive her for many decades. Alansplodge (talk) 14:06, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

And even decimalisation didn't put an end to pre-Elizabeth II coins. The pre-decimal shilling and florin were of equal value to the decimal five pence and ten pence and the new coins were the same size and colour as the old. George VI shillings and florins continued to be widely in circulation until the early 90s when the 5p and 10p were reduced in size. I seem to recall seeing earlier monarchs too, but rarely, as prior to 1947 silver coins contained some actual silver so pre-1947 coins were taken out of circulation if they were spotted . Valiantis (talk) 16:59, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Quite right; I thought I remembered seeing George V shillings, but having Googled some images of them, I now realise that they were early George VI ones. Don't forget the sixpence which stayed in circulation as a useful 2½p coin until 1980, according to our article. Alansplodge (talk) 17:59, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Similarly here in Canada, in the 1960s I used to frequently see coins with George VI on them, occasionally with George V, very rarely Edward VII. They pretty much never appear any more now that pennies are no longer made and the other coins have changed to cheaper metals than before.

When Edward VIII took the throne in early 1936 they continued issuing coins with George V while working on the dies for Edward VIII coins, but when Edward abdicated late the same year, it created a problem. They had to start over with new dies for George VI and could not issue any coins dated 1937 until these were ready! To avert a coin shortage, they finally decided to cheat and issue George V coins dated 1936 even into 1937, but with a dot under the date, meaning "not really that year". Curiously, in two denominations the 1936-dot coins are now rare: I've seen it suggested that the dots wore off (but I don't have a source to cite for that). Incidentally, the independence of India created a similar problem as George VI was identified at the time on our coins (in abbreviated Latin) as "king, and emperor of India". Coins dated 1948 had to be made without the latter phrase, and the dies weren't ready in time, so coins with the phrase dated 1947 were issued in 1948. Instead of a dot, these have a little maple leaf under the date. See Coins of the Canadian dollar#1936 dot coinage and Coins of the Canadian dollar#1947 maple leaf coinage.

I don't know if the UK had the same problems on these occasions, or how they resolved it if they did. --65.94.50.17 (talk) 23:15, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

A quick Google shows that the British coins for 1948 continued to bear the IND:IMP (Indiae Imperator) title, whereas the coins for 1949 did not. According to our Emperor of India article, the title was not officially renounced until 22 June 1948, so perhaps the Canadians were jumping the gun somewhat. Alansplodge (talk) 00:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure I've seen George VI coins fairly recently in Canada, usually pennies, before we got rid of pennies anyway. I remember seeing 1945 "victory nickels" in circulation too, at least as late as the 1990s and probably in the 2000s as well. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:50, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the final part of the question. When coins with Chuck start getting printed, the ones with Lizzy will not become obsolete or worthless - they won't be "getting rid of" the old coins and notes any more than they do when new designs come out. However, you do need to use them up by the expiration year printed on all currency; if you find any expired bank notes or coins in your possession, please forward them on to me for proper disposal. :) 99.235.223.170 (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know where you find an expiration date printed on currency - you certainly don't find them in the UK. All Bank of England notes ever issued, back to the originals in 1695, can be exchanged for current notes of the same face value by taking or posting them to the Bank's head office. Notes get taken out of circulation periodically, and cease to be legal tender, but they can always be redeemed (unlike, say, Swiss franc banknotes which lose all their value 20 years after withdrawal). There's a new Bank of England £5 note scheduled to be introduced sometime in 2016 (a polymer note, with Winston Churchill on the back), and going by previous experience about a year later I'd expect the Bank to announce a date around 3 months in the future after which the current Elizabeth Fry £5's will cease to be legal tender; there will be announcements in the newspapers, on TV, and possibly some notices in shops, and after the date the commercial banks may still accept the old notes for deposit into accounts for a few more months, but after that, that's it for the old notes unless you take them to Threadneedle Street. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 21:17, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

That's weird, all US money is legal tender forever except for trade dollars from 1876 to 1965. And maybe gold and silver certificates? It's a waste of money to use US currency more than very roughly a century old as legal tender though, or any with silver or gold in it (our 1964 silver coins are only worth 3.2 to 64 pence as fiat money, lol). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:15, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to take a stab at 99.235.223.170's comment. I suspect that it's a joke, and the expiration date is just whatever date happens to be on the money. This would then suggest that all money in OP's possession is "expired" and should be sent forthwith to 99.235.223.170. Mingmingla (talk) 23:54, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Identify portrait of a 16th-century Maghrebinian ruler

I came across this portrait, apparently a part of the Giovio Series, a series of copies made in the second half of the 16th century of a collection of portraits from some time earlier in the century, painted by Cristofano dell'Altissimo and held in the Uffizi Gallery in Florence. Catalog entries on the web, based apparently on a museum inventory of 1890 , describe it as "Ritratto di Achmet sceriffo di Mauritania", i.e. "portrait of Ahmed, sharif of Mauritania", and date it to "1552-1568". According to less cropped copies seen elsewhere on the web, the painting bears an inscription of "...SCERIFFVS M:RE:MAV..." above.

Can anybody help identify this person? I'm assuming we are dealing with somebody from the List of rulers of Morocco. The title "sharif" might point to the Saadi dynasty. There was a person called Ahmad al-Araj from that dynasty in the mid-16th century, though apparently not a prominent independent ruler, and a more prominent Ahmad al-Mansur later in the century, but his time of rule would not fit with the dating of 1552-1568 (he was only born in 1549 and assumed power in 1578).

I'd like to get this identification cleared up, because the painting has also been widely circulating on the web with a totally different (and entirely unsourced) attribution, as allegedly intended to portray 8th-century Tariq ibn Ziyad. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:07, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Update: Heh, interesting. Here is another print version, evidently loosely based on the same original (same winning smile!), titled "Effigie di Mulay Ahmed detto Sceriffo Re Marocco Xilografia da Paolo Giovio 1575". Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Wow, this is getting funnier and funnier. Here is another print version, and the German verse underneath it is just too hilarious to omit:

Muleameth von angesicht

Ausserhalb vast schön ist nicht,

Hett aber innerliche gaben,

Die wol des Hannibals gleich traben

Was krieg füren belangt, zu dem

Warn ihm die Frey künst angenem.

("Mulay Ahmed wasn't exactly good-looking outwardly, but he had inner gifts comparable to Hannibal in military prowess, and he also liked the liberal arts.") Cool. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:33, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

More and more fun. Here is yet another version about "Muleamethes", in an German-language book from 1586. The biography (in early modern German) seems to point to our Ahmad al-Araj. Mystery solved? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Also there's another version of the painting in the Museum of Art History in Vienna , under the title of "Muleamethes, Beherrscher v. Fez u. Marokko". Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:12, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Given the Mulay/Mule part of the name (and the M in the catalog inscription rather than A, are you sure it is not his brother? 184.147.128.46 (talk) 00:26, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

That could be a part of his brother's actual name, but it's also a title meaning "lord" or "master" (mawlah), so conceivably Ahmad al-Araj could also have been called mulay as well. "Mulay Ahmed" would produce "Muleamethes" more easily than "Mulay Mohammed". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:47, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the biographical sketch in Paolo Giovio's Elogia virorum bellica virtute illustrium , which all these portraits ultimately all go back to, is explicit about the two brothers and that the one he's talking about is Ahmed, not Mohammed (hi erant Mahometes & hic Scyriffus nomine Amethes). I am wondering though, because he seems to be going on telling about his "Mulamethes" finishing off his brother as well as the rival sultan of the older dynasty, both of which being feats that according to our article Mohammed did, not Ahmed. Maybe Giovio (and after him all those other European copyists) mixed the two brothers up at some point? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:26, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Update: This source explicitly identifies Giovio's "Muleamethes" with the "Sa'iden-Scherif Mulai (Mawla) Ahmed al-Aradi"; that's certainly our Ahmad al-Araj. (BTW, Adam is right, Giovio treats "Mule-" as a routine title for all these rulers, and "Muleamethes" is clearly meant as a contraction of "Mulay Ahmed". Actually he calls the other sultan who was getting overthrown by the Saadi brothers "Muleamethes" too; he was another "Ahmed".) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:06, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Great! It's been a pleasure to watch your detective work, glad you resolved it. And thank you Adam for the explanation. 184.147.128.46 (talk) 13:20, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

August 22

Trading floor of the stock market

Every once in a while, the stock market becomes a "newsworthy story" (in the general news, not just the business or finance news, where it is always featured). When this happens, I have often seen (on the TV news, in print newspapers, or on the internet) photos of stockbrokers running around like chickens without heads. Here is an example: . And, oftentimes, they are performing some types of hand signals (such as here: ). So, my question is: what on earth are these people doing exactly? I am going to guess that they are somehow selling or trading stocks. (But I honestly have no idea.) If that is the case (that they are engaging in selling or trading stocks), isn't all that stuff done on computers nowadays? Whatever they are doing seems pretty "low tech" and must be inefficient, I'd imagine. Any insights? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:45, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

See Open outcry. Widneymanor (talk) 08:23, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I will go and read that, now. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 23:48, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

did de Gaulle say this?

did Charles de Gaulle (or any notable Westerner) say the quote in this meme ("Stalin hasn't become a thing of the past, he has melted into the future")? Could he have? What was the original wording? Asmrulz (talk) 13:23, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

(1a) Hi, when you put quotation marks around a phrase and put it into google, it searches for those exact words in that exact order. Doing that for your phrase as written here doesn't give any results. This suggests that no one said it in English. (1b) One way to find Charles de Gaulle's writings in French is via the French Wikisource. But searching those for Staline brings up no results either. (2) is unanswerable. (3) If you wish to search further in French, suggest you try the nouns as keywords: Staline, passé and futur or avenir. "Melt" could be translated by too many possibilities, plus you'd have to try too many forms of the verbs. 184.147.128.46 (talk) 20:54, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

the English phrase was my translation of the Cyrillic caption solely for the purpose of this Q. I'd be surprised if you got any hits. Asmrulz (talk) 00:03, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for explaining. I didn`t click your link because I didn`t recognize the site. To try and avoid meme-related hits, could you try a search on the Cyrillic phrase in books only, or on a site with sources texts only (use site:http://URLhere as one of your google search terms) such as archive.org or gutenberg.org? Or of course Wikisource for whichever language your meme is in. 184.147.128.46 (talk) 01:23, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

There are several hits, one of them in a Russian book from 2000, where it is attributed to "a Western analyst", and another in literary magazine from 1996 which attributes it to one Pierre Courtade (quoted, according to the footnote, from "De la Nature de l'URSS" by one Edgar Morin, ed. Fayard) Asmrulz (talk) 10:12, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Ta-da!!! "Staline n'a pas disparu dans le passé, mais s'enfonce dans notre avenir." ("Stalin didn't disappear into the past, but buried himself in our future") Aren't you and I little Sherlock Holmeses (or Jules Maigrets in this case) Asmrulz (talk) 10:22, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

That's fantastic. How satisfying when it works out like that! 184.147.128.46 (talk) 11:51, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

User User:Ser Amantio di Nicolao mass-editing wrongly. Question about the nature of Misplaced Pages.

Traditional Spanish music

This, particularly from 0:13 reminds me of some kind of traditional Spanish music roughly similar to flamenco, but not it, possibly some regional Spanish variety. What kind of traditional music closely resembles that? AFAIK there was a car commercial video with similar traditional Spanish motives. Brandmeister 20:31, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

We have an article on the guitarist, Ewan Dobson, which says he is a fingerstyle guitarist (which article lists flamenco as a fairly major theme). I'm not musically inclined enough to pick through the details of the article to assess precisely what you'd call the style in the YouTube clip. 99.235.223.170 (talk) 22:01, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

August 23

Is there a standard font for formal or professional writing?

Is there a standard font (and font size) for formal and/or professional writing? Do any of the style manuals address this? Or, what is the commonly accepted practice? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 06:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

They vary from publication to publication, so it's best to ask whoever you're writing for what they need (often, they'll be able to send you a template, or alternatively, they'll accept your writing in any font and change it fit the publication's style guide themselves). In screenwriting, 12 pt Courier is standard (since it's a standard size, so a page of Courier 12 should usually correspond to one minute of screen time). In many academic fields, Computer Modern has become the standard, since it's the default font in LaTeX and has a very comprehensive set of mathematical symbols. For other general uses, just go for a standard typeface like Times New Roman, Arial, Helvetica etc, at a size between 11 and 14, with a bit of extra space between the lines and you'll be fine. Smurrayinchester 06:25, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I second advice above.

Every academic and professional field has their own preferences, and every publisher can enforce their own rules.

In business and professional writing, the best generic wisdom is encapsulated in the Chicago Manual of Style.

Rhetorically, you aim to please and persuade, so usage is your guide. But good taste is allowed: one need not be boring.

An excellent ebook by a font designer that Bryan A. Garner, editor in chief of Black’s Law Dictionary, calls a “tour de force” that’s “smartly reasoned,” “well written,” and “assuredly infallible” provides great background and strong, succinct recommendations, not only for his own relatively inexpensive fonts, but for several openly licensed ("free as in beer") fonts:

Butterick, Matthew (2010). Typography for Lawyers. Houston, TX: Jones McClure. ISBN 978-1598390773..

I'll name and link to these beautiful and businesslike free fonts later today. But do read the free preview of the book - Edward Tufte quality. (Another font of wisdom, and well worth emulating.). -- Paulscrawl (talk) 07:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

English translations of Proust

Per In Search of Lost Time#Publication in English, there seem to be two major English translations of Proust available - the Moncrieff/Kilmartin/Enright translation and the one by a team of translators edited by Christopher Prendergast. What is the critical consensus on the respective merits of these translations? --Viennese Waltz 09:56, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

On Scott Moncrieff, it seems the consensus is he was not accurate, but created a wonderful read. Some references:

This textbook on translation (published 1988) says, page 56, that the Moncrieff version is "a model of translation"

The Public Domain Review claims "Moncrieff’s translation of À la recherche du temps perdu is considered by many journalists and writers to be the best translation of any foreign work into the English language"

Boston Review: "The translation Moncrieff produced was a masterpiece. That said, it was not without its share of controversial choices"

2004 article in The Atlantic which contains a long discussion of a retranslation in the 1980s and gives a bit of history on why people started wanting to redo the Scott Moncrieff version.

On Prendergast, it is harder to determine, since everything seems a comparison with Scott Moncrieff rather than assessment on its own merits. People think simplicity and humour have been restored. Have a read:

New York Review of Books article (itself critical of the Prendergast book) beings with "The six volumes of the new Viking Penguin translation of Proust received rave reviews in England"

And here are some of those reviews: Guardian (2), Guardian (2) and Telegraph

New York Times review of Prendergast, and I can't tell if it is positive or negative

(afollow-up discussion on the NY Review of Books letters page provides some insight into the differences between the two.) 184.147.128.46 (talk) 12:41, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

reference needed

G'Day. I know of a person called Anthony Martis who has been a priest for over 50 years in Pakistan but cannot find any reference to the date of his ordination. Can you help? Tissueboy (talk) 22:36, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

August 24

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