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Revision as of 05:12, 13 August 2006 edit69.196.164.190 (talk) →Iranian Aid for Hizbollah← Previous edit Revision as of 05:17, 13 August 2006 edit undoMoshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users12,202 edits →Consensus vote: Captured, Kidnapped, or AbductedNext edit →
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#'''Support''' per above, taken hostage from across the border with the explicitly stated goal of prisoner exchange. <font style="color:#22AA00;">''']'''</font><font style="color:#888888;"><sup>]</sup></font> 05:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC) #'''Support''' per above, taken hostage from across the border with the explicitly stated goal of prisoner exchange. <font style="color:#22AA00;">''']'''</font><font style="color:#888888;"><sup>]</sup></font> 05:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' per def and args above. ←] <sup>]</sup> 05:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC) #'''Support''' per def and args above. ←] <sup>]</sup> 05:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
#'''Support''' captured gives the impression that they were taken prisoner during a normal wartime exercise, in reality they were taken during an attack across an internationally recognized border when there was no recent provocation from the Israeli side.- ] | ] 05:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)



*Vote here if you support the use of the word '''Abducted''' (''Sign your entry.'') *Vote here if you support the use of the word '''Abducted''' (''Sign your entry.'')

Revision as of 05:17, 13 August 2006

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Archive

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Discussion about the name of the article

Earlier discussions

Discussion about casualties

Earlier discussions


"Estimates" from the tourism minister, etc.

Do we need to include every prominent Israeli's "estimate" of the number of Hezbollah militants that have been/will be killed, when the IDF is releasing solid, confirmed kill numbers? I know of at least three different "estimates" from varying ministers (including the tourism minister, whose was the highest), and various editors keep removing any "estimate" save the tourism minister's (including removing Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz' 300 estimate). If we are going to include "estimates" in the infobox, we need to include them all, or decide to stick with only the confirmed kill numbers the IDF is now releasing. Also, if editors wish to only use a "+" figure ("300+," "500+") to cover all estimates, base estimate used must be the lowest. Thanks, Italiavivi 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

good point, look at the beginning when lebanon said 1000 dead in the first week. That was defitnley a wrong number. Then CNN saying one Hezbollah Terrorist was killed in a week and a half period. --Zonerocks 00:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Editors are still removing all "estimates" save the highest, despite there being multiple such "estimates." Again, if editors insist on listing these "estimates," it's all or nothing. I'm becomming more and more of the opinion that we should stick with the IDF's confirmed kills only. 206.255.20.48 21:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
It was done again, changed from 165 to 500, with no one fact-checking or source-checking the anon who did it. 206.255.21.51 05:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I intend to keep an NPOV tag on this article if the IDF-confirmed versus "estimates" matter is not settled on talk. Italiavivi 20:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Lebanese Casualties

From Archive:

As of 2/3 August:

  • Guardian attributes Lebanese government with "828 of its civilians"
  • BBC cites the Health Minister's 750
  • CNN attributes to Lebanese government "603 civilians and soldiers" & "2,145 others" wounded
  • CBS "At least 548 Lebanese have been killed since the fighting began three weeks ago, including 477 civilians and 25 Lebanese soldiers and at least 46 Hezbollah guerrillas."

I am reverting to the 577 figure from the 828. I again stress that we either list the best (objective) numbers that distinguish civilians, or remove the civilian qualification and attribute the Lebanese gov't (a solution which has been opposed by several). Tewfik 05:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But none of those links support that figure. Itarr-tass also has the 828, so that makes two for it. --Iorek85 05:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

You are correct. The first three numbers are attributed to the Lebanese government, and do not distinguish between civilians and others. The CBS/AP number (548 Lebanese, 477 civilians) is the only one that does that, but Paraphelion's previous calculation's came out with a higher number for civilians (577). Like I said before, we cannot list the 828 number as either a civilian count or an objective number. Could you suggest a different way to approach this? Let me know, Tewfik 06:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say the only possible way at the moment would be a "between" number, ie, 477 - 828, which covers the range. That, or we see how many news articles (in the last two/three days) with numbers we can find and go for the most popular. --Iorek85 07:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason why we need a source that distinguishes between civilians, rather than just subtracting the number of combatants from the total dead ourselves? Are the number of dead combatants unreliable? If so, why are we using them? There are numbers available from Reuters for total Lebanese dead that are less than 3 hours old (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5242732.stm). Why should we be using 5 day old data? - 18:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The casualty figures given by Lebanese government are now reported as 828 ->
"Yesterday the Lebanese government said that of the 828 of its civilians killed in the conflict so far, around 35% have been children - that's around 290. Unicef also estimates that about a third of the dead have been children, although it bases that figure on the fact that an estimated 30% of Lebanon's population are children, rather than any actual count of the dead. There are no official figures yet for the number of wounded children, but they will certainly exceed the number killed; as for those displaced, Unicef says that 45% of the estimated 900,000 Lebanese to have fled their homes are children."
"The death toll in Lebanon stands at 828, with some 200 bodies yet to be recovered, according to the country's government." 82.29.227.171 13:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Update

Update as of 11 August:

  • Guardian: "Civilians: 1,009 killed (based on Lebanese government estimates"
  • BBC: "More than 1,000 Lebanese, most of them civilians...Lebanon says" no distinction of civilians
  • CNN: "861 Lebanese, mostly civilians, according to authorities in " no distinction of civilians
  • CBS News: "727 on the Lebanese side" no distinction of civilians

These numbers raise the same issues as before, namely that there isn't a minimum figure for civilians killed (and thus the "civilians" qualification is problematic). Suggestions? Tewfik 16:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

We already edited the death count last night for the lebanese, to over a thousand, we talked about it in this talk page yesterday afternoon. --Zonerocks 19:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


Discussion about Pictures

Older discussions:

Main Picture

The main picture is seriously misleading. It ignores how the conflict started and the current situation. One look at that picture indicates that Israel just began firing. What about the thousands of rockets that Hezbollah has fired? A good majority of these rockets have been fired from people's homes and have caused severe damage and forced hundreds of thousands of Israelis to seek safe places. Furthermore, Hezbollah even uses human shields, which is prohibited by Human Rights Laws. These illegal acts by Hezbollah only make it even more difficult for Israel to eliminate the terror group. It is extremely unfortunate that so many civilians have been killed on both sides, but the civilian toll would be a lot less if Hezbollah didn't use human shields and use innocent lives for its own cause. Israel is fighting for its survival. Unfortunately, it is surrounded by many hostile countries. Hezbollah, is an organization that desires the destruction of Israel. Once Hezbollah and other groups that seek the destruction of Israel are elminiated, can there then be hopes for peace. --68.1.182.215 02:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a tank. An Israeli one firing into Lebanon. There's POV there. If we were to be more fair, to show the majority of the damage, it would show the destruction in Beirut or southern Lebanon, but I don't think you'd like that. Iorek85 03:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Fairness does not mean showing who got more damage. Yes, it is regrettable that many lives have been lost on both sides. However, Hezbollah's use of civilans is wrongful. Israel is trying as hard as it can to limit the civilian casualties while eliminating Hezbollah, which seeks Israel's destruction. Israel has nothing to gain from killing innocent people. Fairness has nothing to do with the ouctome. After all, the outcome only became an outcome because someone started it. To be "fair" would be to judge Hezbollah's actions both in starting this conflict and using civlians as human shields which is against human rights. --68.1.182.215 03:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Iorek85. A picture, especially the main picture, is supposed to give someone who is unfamiliar with the article a sense of the situation that the article can explain more fully. In this case, the tank can suggest two things. First, it could suggest the view of those who support Israel--that Israel is defending itself by military means. Second, it could suggest the view of those against Israel, showing Israel attacking Lebanon without an apparent means of provokation shown in the picture. To find something completely NPOV for this, we'd have to analyze a lot more than what has happened in the last 30 days. Since that isn't practical right now, and since Misplaced Pages is not the place for analyzing the responsibilities and faults of parties, this main picture seems to me to be the best solution for the time being.--Nibblesnbits 08:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but what about the people who have no knowledge of the conflict? Then what you're telling me is that rather than presenting the facts, it is better to tell an anti-Israel viewpoint. Either have a fair viewpoint or simply don't have a viewpoint and just state the facts as they are. I believe wikipedia is about telling all the facts, not changing them or using them to support a certain position. --68.1.182.215 18:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think you misunderstood me. I said that it could suggest the views of both parties. Let's put it this way. Someone with an opinion on the conflict will see it their way no matter what. Someone without an opinion and without knowledge would look at this picture and simply see an IDF tank. The person, if they truly know nothing about the conflict, will think, hey, there are two possibilities here. First, this is a tank defending its people. Or second, there's a tank attacking people randomly. So a person completely ignorant to the conflict would not jump to an anti-Israeli conclusion from this. At least, that's my opinion. A person with any knowledge of the conflict will already have his/her own ideas of who is at fault in the conflict anyway, and so my statement above was actually entirely about people with no knowledge of any of the conflict. Like I said, this is just my opinion, but anyway, I hope this clears up what I was trying to say.--Nibblesnbits 13:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree; there is a certain duality to which the picture can be percieved that makes it NPOV. While I can understand where you come from arguing that the current picture can be percieved as being aggresive and offensive, it can simultaneously be regarded as the opposite, namely defensive, and hence does not inherentely favour any 'position.' I furthermore believe this to apply both to those ignorant of the conflict, and those knowledgable of it. For these reasons and others outlined above, I do not believe that Misplaced Pages is presenting an "anti-Israel viewpoint" by any measure. --Gregorof 03:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Update the Israeli bombing map?

Hey, I was wondering, shouldn't we update that map under the header "Israeli Action" with the caption "Areas in Lebanon targeted by Israeli bombing, 12 July to 27 July 2006"? I mean, it's getting kind of old and there's a new, almost identical map with more up-to-date information. The newer version of the map can be found here. Someone would have to change the "occupied Palestine" label to "Israel" but that's all. The map says "feel free to circulate" so that's not a problem either.--Nibblesnbits 07:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Image

File:54949.jpg

Where may we use this? Flayer 21:14, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

What s that a picture of? --Zonerocks 22:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion about POV

Older Discussions

Please do not edit these archived discussions.

Damage inflicted on Lebanon

Hello there,

I am preparing the Turkish Misplaced Pages page for the conflict and I am not an active contributor to the English one. I was reading this article to see how English Misplaced Pages has choosen to write it. I see a lot of POW problems with this English article. The unimaginable damage inflicted on Lebanon is not properly described in this article. Plus the figures for the dead and the wounded are several days old and needs to be updated. I fear that the contributors of this article has taken a pro-Israeli stance. I hope this will be corrected. --85.104.143.135 12:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The article used to have more information on the damage in Lebanon. But recently, coincidentally right after the Megaphone software went online, the article has lost much of that information (esp. pictures). Maybe we need a sub-page of the main article that is focused solely on the damage in Lebanon, and one for the damage in Israel to keep it NPOV. That way, people will have no reason to cut things out for summary purposes. --Epsilonsa 19:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Thats an excellent idea. --Gregorof 03:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Um, summarising is only there when you do have a subpage. So you want a page for casualties, a page for the attacks by Hezbollah, a page for the attacks by Israel, a timeline of both sides attacks, and a page for the damage in Lebanon and one for Israel? This (month long) conflict will end up with more pages than WWII. Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict isn't enough?

As for the actual complaint, I agree. The NPOV lovers have reduced the article a bit, making it more of a 50:50 either side than pointing out the vast majority of the damage is in Lebanon. Iorek85 03:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

General Discussion

Earlier discussions

  • Older Discussion Summaries
  • Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive18#General Discussion
    • Megaphone Software is official Israel Gov policy, beginning of conflict, Why was Rafik Hariri International Airport bombed?, Why was the lighthouse in Beirut eradicated?, Tewfik please discuss removing sources here before, Article, suitable lead, Removing Nasrallah quotation and Hezbollah actions, Widing of the War, Karen Kwiatkowski, Use of weapons with wide blast patterns, Nasrallah - spiritual leader, Criticisms of the allegation that Hezbollah is using human shields
  • Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive21#General Discussion
    • Semi-Protected, Haim Ramon's Comments under "Israeli Position", Request that "Civilians..." section be cleaned up, IRGC should be readded as a combatant, Israeli use of human shields: a look at the other side of the coin & a New light on Hezbollah, Hezbollah-Pasderan Links, Hezbollah-Pasderan Links Seem to be Propganda, Proposed UN resolution, Big bias against Hezbollah, Hezbollah Action, Haaretz References are not acceptable, Reference 22, Section: International Reaction, Political Correctness BS, Begining of the conflict, Background of conflict, Excuse me but Israel was the one that crossed the border, Timeline, Lebanon claims IDF troops have captured around 350 Lebanese soldiers, Israeli Soldiers were kidnapped NOT captured, When can we start calling this a war?, hizbullah did not start this conflict!, The protect tag, Environmental consequences of attacks, Who is Terrorist, IDF allows 400 Lebanese security forces to leave Marjayoun, What's the point of enviromental part, POV & historical revision, No historical background?, International Reaction


Please do not modify these archived discussions.

What is Terrorism?

Terrorism is consisely defined by WordNet as: 

terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act -- (the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence)
against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature;
this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)

Hezbollah admits, nay, is quite unabashed about doing just that in the words of its envoy to Iran:

"We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. We will expand attacks. The people who came to Israel, (they) moved there to live, not to die. If we continue to attack, they will leave."

Calling such deliberate targeting of civilians "terrorism" is not expressing a POV — it is stating a fact.

Whether or not Israel does the same is irrelevant. пан Бостон-Київський 20:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, and it gives another reason why we should take out milita and add terrorists. Zonerocks 22:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel shopuld be added as a Terrorist state... 69.196.164.190

Absolutely. Along with pretty much every other nation in the history of the world, almost definitely including yours. The WordNet entry may be the textbook definition (as well as the one I employ), but the word has picked up far too many connotations in modern parlance to be casually dropped whenever it's technically accurate to do so. That would be propaganda. Seeings as the article already mentions both Hezbollah and Israel being criticized for attacks against civilians, this sort of bombastic nomenclature seems both redundant and incendiary. And this is coming from an Israeli who has no doubt, as far as personal opinion goes, that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization and that the state of Israel is responsible for numerous acts of state terrorism. The "Targeting of civilian areas", "International reaction", and "Historical background" sections seem more than sufficient, and I fail to see how referring to Hezbollah as "militants" or "guerillas" would make the article any less accurate. 89.1.68.175 21:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)



Reference broken

Reference 72 appears to be broken. The link should be.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm

Update: Appears this link has been removed altogether and is no longer referenced in the document? Why? ---Archeus Nevermind I see its been moved to another page International reactions to the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict by Organizations

I have a question. How is it possible to start a war and report as motive two kidnapped soldiers? Now over 2,000 people have died. Now the rest of the world sits and watches Israel shred Lebanon to pieces. Hundreds of inocent people are dying. I'm not saying that terrorist shouldn't be dealt with, but the childern who died in the bombings had nothing to do with terrorists. How can we in a world of so called human rights sit back and watch as these inocent people are killed? How can an entire country be destroyed for a handfull of terrorist and two kidnapped soldiers? I am curious to here your opinions on this matter. I am sorry if a upset anyone but this is my personal impression on this issue.

"a handfull of terrorist and two kidnapped soldiers". What about the many thousands of missiles being fired across the border, which began before the soldiers were taken? I think the conclusion should be: "Don't attack your neighbor if you don't want him to fight back..." Valtam 16:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
"a hand full of propganda artists and snakes are fooling the world, pretending to be peace loving, but reality want to take more land and have total control; these criminals all hide in Tel Aviv and are the real terrorists," Father Talmanous, U.S.A.

69.196.164.190

Yes, absolutely. "Mwahahahaha, yeeeessshhh, more land, total CONTROLLLL" is just about what passed through their heads when they authorized the unilateral disengagement plan of 2005. --AceMyth 00:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


This has turned into a political forum, This is un believeable. Fact is Hezbolah 'pre-emtively' struck first. Alright There will be no change. --Zonerocksandproud 00:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Read this about Israeli tactics from Israel; it is about Gaza but it shows you what the Israeli occupation army does with civilians;

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

69.196.164.190

Judging by the link you just provided, it seems that all the Israeli terrorists are indeed hiding in Tel Aviv, maintaining such ambitions of conquest that sometimes they go all the way over into catatonic lapses where they mercilessly, constantly question their own actions with moral rhetoric. Hezbollah, on the other hand, has been conducting no terrorist activities of territorially ambitious nature and thus enjoys an absolutely clean conscience, as evidenced in the glaring lack of similar voices on their side of the conflict. --AceMyth 00:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually the terrorists in Tel Aviv have been causing blood to run in the Middle East since they set foot in it. Israel's creation was because of terrorism; Israel was born out of terroris,. WHo bombed the King David Hotel? Who attacked British citizens and Palestinians to bush for the 1948 formation of Israel?
Etzel. To say that their actions were not uncontroversial would be an understatement; the majority, mainstream opinion of the Jewish people in then-Palestine opposed their tactics, openly called them terrorists and campaigned for the foundation of the Jewish state via negotiation with the British rather than violence (especially considering that during most of the time-frame in question the British were busy fighting Hitler, whom the people of Israel were not very fond of either). When the Etzel tried bringing in a ship full of firearms to Israel in 1948 so it can continue acting independently against the wishes of head of the provisional government David Ben-Gurion, he ordered it drowned. Funny that this incident would be brought up, what with the interesting parallels to what the Lebanese government has been doing with its own renegade army-within-an-army, and whatnot. --AceMyth 03:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hell, plenty of Etzel's members openly referred to themselves as terrorists. Shamir said something to the effect of terrorism being "the only way" of achieving their goals, and he eventually wound up being prime minister. And Etzel wasn't half as bad as Lehi; at least they never wanted to ally with Hitler. I fail to see how any of this has any bearing whatsoever on the article, though. We're not trying to figure out which side is right, nor even test the implicit assumption that one of the sides is right. 89.1.68.175 21:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Message to AceMyth for editing

Have you read my post about the 350 soldiers lebanon has said idf soldiers caught in that city. If you could read it and respond to me about what you think and if it should be added. --Zonerocks 01:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you already added it..... So Kudos. But should we consider adding that operation to the bottom of the israel action section. Please respond. --Zonerocks 01:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I will. I'm dead tired, but I will. BTW if you want to message me personally Misplaced Pages has "user talk" pages for that (mine, for example, is at User talk:AceMyth. --AceMyth 01:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I understand. Were all tired, most of us have jobs beside 69.196.164.190 I mean im tired to. I understand. When i get sprotection then it will be easier as well. So enjoy yourself. Also thanks for the heads up about user talk. --Zonerocks 02:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes Israelis yes, keep on acting and working together to put propaganda on this site; but you can not stop the truth from being seen. World opinion is growing and very soon in our life time it will be at the level will Israel will stop getting free weapons and military supplies for free (Israel is the biggest Leech-welfare state that recieves eveything for free and drains other nations economies).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imAvXIm_iuw

69.196.164.190

Israel pays for its weaponry.
In fact, the United States preconditions all of its military aid to its chief ally in the Middle East on its acceptance that the equipment will come from American manufacturers.
Hezbollah, to the best of my knowledge, gets everything from its benefactors, i.e. Syria and the IRI, gratis.
Although, I suppose murdering Americans and Israelis, and destabilizing Lebanon, is recompense enough for the two chief rogue states in that region.

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

YAAAAAA, Okay..you want to talk about rogue states; your living in one. Israel is the most disliked state in the world by the masses and if you think not you need a reality check. ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST REGIME AND STATE! It is an illegal state that was created to steal money by the Zionists. No real and practiciny Jew supports Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTd08SPfckg

Look I don;t want insult you and I know you are an Israeli, but this is the truth. This violance must be stopped and you following the state line of the Israeli regime is not helping.

69.196.164.190

"The masses are asses."
I'll give you a Canadian dollar if you can tell me whence that quote originated.
By the way, I'm not Israeli, and have never been to Israel.
But feel free to throw around ignorant generalizations, and continue to exhibit your general lack of knowledge about this subject.
It's quite amusing, if not edifying.

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

And yes, I'm quite familiar with the Naturei Kartei nutbars and their unique, bizarre interpretation of Satmar Judaism.
In fact, I've counterprotested them-along with the rest of the "Death to Israel, Death To America" brigades-at the Salute To Israel Day Parade, so I'm not really sure what posting a video of their inane, semi-coherent ramblings is intended to accomplish.
Yes, Youtube is a wonderful website, where people can upload videos.
Now, would you care to support any of the baseless accusations you've made thus far?
Just curious.

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


To clarify: I will look into the sources that are provided, judge them against WP:RS and edit them in if appropriate. When I feel like it. I am a procrastinator of the worst kind. --AceMyth 06:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Iranian Aid for Hizbollah

It is always stated that iran is providing aid to hizbollah in form of arms or finance but nobody stated that israel gets the largest aid from USA than anyother country in the world and USA is the main arm supplier to Israil. User:Abulfazl 10:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Iran is mentioned because Iran denies it, though even some government officials say its true, therefore creating a notable situation. Where as the US and Israel are open about their support. Also according to the UN at least, Israel is a state and Hezbollah is a illegal militia operating within the country of Lebanon. Supporting an illegal entity is a little more notable then supporting a legal one. --zero faults 10:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

By The way Hizbollah has never been an illegal millitia it takes part in elections and have a certain no of seats in Lebanese parliament and has also shown its existence in the Lebanese cabinet. --User:Abulfazl 10:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Umm wrong, according to the UN in resolution 1559 all militias in Lebanon were to be disbanded and disarmed. Having seats anywhere doesnt make you not illegal, its almost like saying Hamas isnt a terrorist organization, they just blow up civilians in between their daily government duties. There is no such thing as a legal militia in Lebanon according to SC res 1559. --zero faults 12:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hezbollah is not an illegal militia, do not make statments about things you don't know. Hezbollah in fact has/ or had a mandate to protect the border of Lebanon from Israel too. 69.196.164.190

It is mentioned - "Further, the United States authorized Israel's request for the expedited processing and shipment of precision-guided bombs to Israel. The United States did not announce the shipment publicly." Don't ask me why anyone think either is relevent, or why the U.S thinks it's fine to fund Israel, but not fine for Iran to fund Hezbollah. Iorek85 11:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Fact is that we have put that, and we put Iran denied it. If you think the usa thing should be in the article, well then bring up a new section in this talk page for open discussion. --Zonerocks 14:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
A more recent article documenting Iranian-Hezbollah military links.
http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/hez_ranians_worldnews_uri_dan__mideast_correspondent.htm

Ruthfulbarbarity 00:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Tasc deletions

I must have missed the discussion. Tasc deleted a lot of material (twice.) Was there a consensus reached that the material does not belong in the article? Or is it just POV censorship? Thanks. Edison 12:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it pov censorship to claim that those links 'encyclopedic and verifiable'? -- tasc deeds 13:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Today's reversions by Tasc: at 11:11, at 12:54, and at 13:20. Isn't there some Misplaced Pages policy about that behavior?Edison 13:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

of course there are! plenty of them! wanna play? -- tasc deeds 13:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, not into template placing as a video game substitute, and I do not see editing Misplaced Pages as playing. I see from your talk page that you have been banned several times for 3RR violations, so perhaps you don't mind it.Edison 13:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

when i had 700 hundreds edits I haven't been banned a single time. ;) -- tasc deeds 14:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Your talk page appears to show you were banned May 9, May 27 and August 3.Edison 04:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see the arbitration page Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#External_links_of_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict on this longstanding problem and make a statement there if you have something relevant to add. I also note here tasc's deletion of these relevant links (11:11, 11 August 2006, 12:54, 11 August 2006, 13:20, 11 August 2006) to Israeli and Lebanese online journals, weblogs, and news service photographs, who states in the comment field,

This action has been longstanding and has been done while consistently disregarding or mocking the talk, mediation, and now arbitration processes. AdamKesher 14:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Links to blogs and onlien journals should be removed. They are not suitable points of reference. If people want blogs and online journals they can search google for them. --zero faults 14:25, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
The salient question is if the external links satisfy Misplaced Pages's policy WP:EL. It is argued that they are relevent, high quality, and provide a unique resource; therefore, they satisfy several of the exceptions explicitly listed under WP:EL, only one of which is needed to consider their inclusion. AdamKesher 14:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Links normally to be avoided

  • Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. However, there are exceptions, such as in cases where the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or where the website is of a particularly high standard.

That is from WP:EL, thank you for pointing me there. Also it fails the verifiable content point in when something should be included. --zero faults 14:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Adam! stop it. don't please talk to us as you're a bot. and don't add links into edit summary, there is no single solution or approval of your pov pushing! -- tasc deeds 14:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You need to be very careful about linking to blogs. WP:EL states: "Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. However, there are exceptions, such as in cases where the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or where the website is of a particularly high standard." The "high standard" criterion is set out further up WP:EL, which permits linking to "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article." Note that this requires a site to be neutral and accurate. An accurate but partisan blog is not eligible for linking. Hope this helps. -- ChrisO 16:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You need to be careful about reading the policy selectively. Under your reading, an external link to the non-neutral POV website Operation Clambake could not be included in the article Scientology, which is, of course, absurd. It is just as absurd not to provide links in an article on the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict to online journals, blogs, and news service photographs of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. AdamKesher 18:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You have a point. Nonetheless, we need to be careful to include high-quality material, not random ranters (or for that matter well-known ranters). -- ChrisO 19:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. The online journals and weblogs now up are argued to meet this standard (featured in the New York Times and the like). I'm certainly open to discussion and suggestions to replace any of these with better ones. The intent here is to have a few for each side that represents the best, most insightful, and most representative out there -- definitely don't want a zoo of mediocre blogs. For background on this, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#External_links_of_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict and follow the links. AdamKesher 00:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I've just cleaned up the photographs section (added one Israeli link, deleted several redundant LB links) to address this issue. AdamKesher 12:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Lebanese citizens in Israeli hands

What is the total number of Lebanese POWs in Israeli prisons? Does anyone have an exact figure? --Burgas00 16:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Shi'a page

look, even the non-political Al-Islam.org changed their main page due to the genocide: http://www.al-islam.org/ --Striver 14:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand what your point is in relation to the article, can you please write it out completely, if this is not related directly toward editing the article can you please move the discussion to user talk space where its more appropriate. --zero faults 14:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
gen·o·cide

noun : The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. Let's try and keep our language encyclopedic, or at least vaguely accurate, eh? The Mark David Chapman article mentions the Lennon Assassination, not the Lennon Massacre. 89.1.68.175 21:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Casualty table removed...

I disagree with this. While casualties are listed as part of the main table for the article, these numbers are confused and often very different from what other media is reporting. The table of casualties gives a good break down by nationality, as well as brief explanation and sources. Casualties are VERY important in war, both as a measure of how large the conflict is, and as a central discussion for a variety of other issues (bombing of civilians, civilian aid, etc). Even the International Reaction section has more text than the casualty section, which is merely a link! Casualties should be one of the most important things on this page, and should absolutely have its own section of text as part of the article. Cut something else thats less important, I'd say. (I dont know enough about the working of tables and such to make the change myself, otherwise I would do so). Harley peters 18:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The table looks ignorant if we put 515-1,009, and someone did that, I don't think we came to consensus. That is a big margin of error and should be fixed. There will always be probelm with casualty counts, no doubt about that. But it is out of control, that we put numbers like 515. Your sources are days and weeks old. Let's get rid of 515 and keep it at 1,009. --Zonerocks 19:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I liked it in, but w'ere trying to keep the article as short as possible. When the conflict is over, and we have some concrete figures, I'd move it back in, since we'd need far less references, and we can give a definitive figure. Iorek85 02:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Unavaliable link

Im am editing the beginning where it says how many israelis died on july 12th link is not valid and it is a false fact. |url=http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738310.html}}--Zonerocks 21:33, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

As well, the end note for note 60 links to note 59's news page, when it is sourced as otherwise. If this could be corrected, it would be great. I am interested in how Hezbollah has the ability to use and acquire UAVs.69.17.136.13 00:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It has been employing unmanned aerial vehicles for reconnaisance purposes for the past two years.

This is not the first time that one has entered Israeli airspace.

Familiarize yourself with these events before purporting to be an informed observer of this subject.

Ruthfulbarbarity 00:47, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoa... lets all try to stay cool here. Tewfik 03:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

UN Agrees to Resoultion

We need to add this to the article. Let's discuss it. --Zonerocks 02:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it needs to be mentioned because it is just hot off the press. Israel OKs Cease-Fire But War Goes On Red1530 03:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Boys, it was already done one hour before Zonerocks asked for it. See the lead. Thomas Blomberg 04:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Should the Resolution thing also be added to the section Cease fire? I think it should --Zonerocks 05:11, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

'Captured' or 'kidnapped'

The anti-Semitic bias of those claiming the word should be "capture" is astounding. They'd even changed the name of Official US Documents in this article to satisfy their anti-Semitic nonsense. Shameful. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/07/20060712.html --12.74.187.169 17:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Anti-semitic??? It could be a bias but tell us why it is considered anti-semitic? People cosider the white house biased anyway!!!! However, they don't consider the white house anti-world! -- Szvest 17:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Didn't you get the memo? Anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite, and anyone who criticizes Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, et cetera is a Zionist Conspirator. We're all propagandists here. 89.1.68.175 21:46, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

For the last time, you don't kidnap uniformed soldiers conducting operations in enemy territory, you capture them, just like Israel CAPTURED 20 Hezbollah combatants - let's at least be fair here


--It is better to read the weather forecast before we pray for rain. 13:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Israeli soldiers in Israel are operating in enemy territory?Yossiea 13:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok look The Concensus has decided that they were kidnapped, We could have a 'Concensus vote' if you would like to. --Zonerocksandproud 00:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that patrol was ambushed IN southern lebanon, before this invasion began --It is better to read the weather forecast before we pray for rain. 15:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Israeli soldiers were patrolling the bluie line. they were taken from israel. there was NO declaration of war. Had Hezbollah done so, it could be called such. But, they chose to KIDNAP them during a somewhat peaceable time.--AeomMai 20:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Seriously. In any event--does this justify the massive retalitation by Israel? No! It does not--not by any stretch of common sense or international law. Israel and the USA are both war-criminal governments. Their officials are fellons, and should be tried accordingly. There is no room for debate about that--it is all written quite unambiguously in the law. Matthew A.J.י.B. 10:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what term we use (though I support captured kidnaped for this, among other reasons), the consensus is that Hezbollah crossed into Israel, attacked the soldiers on the Israeli side of the Blue Line, and took the soldiers back into Lebanon. The UN, EU, G8, and mainstream media including Al Jazeera have characterised the Hezbollah attack as "cross border." You can review more detailed citations at Zar'it-Ayta al-Sha`b incident (déjà vu anyone). Cheers, TewfikTalk 20:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

If the Lebanese army had taken the Israeli soldiers, during a time of war, I would call them "captured". However, when somebody other than a country takes somebody, it's taking hostages or kidnapping them. This is especially true because they aren't likely to be treated according to the Geneva Convention, and may very well be tortured and executed. There is also no possibility that they would be returned "when the war ends", because Hezbollah will never end the war until Israel ceases to exist, which will never happen. Think of the reverse happening. What if some group of militant Jewish settlers went and grabbed a bunch of Palestinian Authority soldiers ? Would you say they were captured or taken hostage/kidnapped ? StuRat 00:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I support kidnapped because Hezbollah has already broken the Geneva Convention by attempting to use the soldiers for ransom (prisoner swap) which is against the Geneva Convention. Furthermore Hezbollah is an illegal entity according to the United Nations as per res 1559 as so there action are based on the illegal definition of the word, that being kidnapped. You can look up kidnap and capture, kidnapping is when there is a ransom ... there was a ransom in this situation. Political correctness aside, using captures is just the wrong word, kidnapped fits 100%. Furthermore threatening to kill soldiers of the other faction is also illegal against the Geneva Convention. The soldiers also within 1 week of capture have to be able to contact a neutral representative and their families have to be notified of how to contact them. More violations of the Geneva Convention. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 10:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If for kidnapped, because these soliders are 1. being used as ransom 2. Were kidnapped in there own territory 3. They weren't at the time in a battle with hizbollah, so when they where attacked with no intention, They kidnapped them. 4. It seems this was planned to use the two kidnapped soldiers as a ransom for prisoner exchange. --Zonerocks 05:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

It's "kidnapped." The UN resolution even says that hostilities started with Hezbollah actions. The resolution is also clear that Hezbollah is to stop all actions while Israel only needs to stop offensive action (defensive action can continue). All of this is an open acknowledgement by the world that the Hezbollah started the action and that it wasn't defensive or justified in any way.--Tbeatty 05:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually the consensus was captured. Kidnapped is POV. Captured is a statement of fact. You cannot even pretend there is NPOV if you call different things the prisioners of both sides, and furthermore, calling "kidnapped" the prisioners of both sides violates bias: unequivocably stated in WP:NPOV is the fact that presentation of two biased position is not NPOV: the presentation itself should be unbiased. I believe failure to understand this leads to too many edit wars. Captured is a great term that satisfies all sides of the POV that are willing to have an NPOV article. Those who insist on "kidnapping" are simply pushing their POV and should be ignored.--Cerejota 07:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is captured is POV, it signifies no illegal action was taken when the UN has already stated there was. You cannot say the illegally operating Hezbollah (res 1559), illegally entered Israel, illegally began hostilities by attacking an israeli outpost, and legally captured soldiers. That does not make any sense at all. Look up the word kidnap, most definitions I have ever seen specify a ransom, which is why these soldiers were kidnapped. Furthermore after the illegal action they are being held against the Geneva Convention, capturing soldiers is legal on the battle field, this was not legal in any way. --zero faults 11:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Are there any objections to me changing the negoations section? --Zonerocks 07:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


ZeroFault is absolutely right. These where illegal actions following the to the soldiers being kidnapped. We have to represent the truth, Not the other way around. Fact is that it is the truth, these guys where kidnapped. --Zonerocks 15:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The killing of hundreds of children by the IDF over the past month is also illegal. However the term murder is not used on wikipedia. Capture is appropriate term in case of armed conflict.--Burgas00 18:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

There was no armed conflict prior to the kidnapping. Which is why its the casus belli. Furthermore the intentional targetting of civilians is illegal and murder, however if you read the geneva convetion and conventions on conventional weapons you would see that as long as the military target is deamed to be of more value then the civilians, and the civilians are not being directly targetted and the attackers are taking care to avoid civilian casualties, its not murder. --zero faults 03:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

So Burgas, the United states should've been charged with war crimes after WWII For bombing german cities and killing thousands upon thousands upon thousands of civilans. What about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Killing a million people within 2 weeks. Hezbollah is hiding amongst the civilan population and using them on shields. You should be condemning Hezbollah. --Zonerocks 18:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

RETURNING THE DISCUSSION TO THE HEADING OF THIS SECTION:
I suggest "abducted" as the most appropriate word. The soldiers were taken in a deliberate cross-border incursion, not "captured" in combat. "Kidnapped," forgive me, suggests a civilian action against children. Since this is apparently under discussion, I won't make the change as an edit. Apart from conventional usage in mainstream English, is there substantiation for "abducted" in this context? -- Deborahjay 18:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Damage inflicted on Lebanon

Hello there,

I wrote about this on the NPOV section but I don't think many people read it. I am preparing the Turkish Misplaced Pages article on the same subject. I have been following this article as well as a comparison. I think there are several important NPOV problems with this article.

The tremendous damage inflicted on Lebanon's infastructure the the extent the Lebanese have suffered are not reported with justice. I believe the authors of this article have taken a somewhat pro-Israeli stance. Just saying that there are over thousand dead and the infastructure is damaged is not enough. The article should be written in such a way that when people read it several years from now, they will understand the horrors involved. Life has been hell in Lebanon during the last month and that should find its place in the article. --85.103.57.38 08:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Good luck - the "NPOV" Israeli editors will have it out in seconds, decrying the massive damage caused by Hezbollah and demanding 50:50 coverage of both sides. Iorek85 08:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
This is NOT about whether Israel or Hezbollah are 'in the right' or 'in the wrong'. Both groups are terrorists--both are criminals in different ways. Hezbollah are practising an illegal variation on vigilante activity. Israel is responsible for major war-crimes and general incendiary behaviour in the Middle East which threatens to foment WWIII. No one here is 'in the right'. The world will not be at peace until Israeli is totally dissolved and the United States of America withdraws from ALL foreign nations, including Iraq. There is no question about this. It is becoming an extremely serious matter. We cannot pre-occupy ourselves with silly debates about the specifics of who did what in this insane conflict. All of it is criminal--all of it threatens the peaceful way of life of human beings on Earth. It is time for all of these individuals, the Israeli government administration, the militant Muslim groups, George W. Bush's administration, Tony Blair and his goons--all of them are CRIMINALS, and the time is imminent to convict them, lest they make a mess of the entire planet. Matthew A.J.י.B. 10:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not a political chat forum, please keep discussions not directly relating to the improvement of the article off of the talk page please. --zero faults 14:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Possibly the Beginning of WWIII

There is a great possibility that the actions of the State of Israel and the United States of America in the Middle East could lead to the development of what would qualify as a Third World War. If the Unted Nations does not successfully put an end to this conflict--and if the State of Israel is not immediately thereafter dissolved and replaced with an internationally-regulated government body--such a war is inevitable, because of the war criminal nature of the USA and Israeli governments. Hezbollah and other militia organisations take a foolish approach to resistance of such governments, however, and only incite further attacks. What needs to be done is international war crimes tribunals. these people--the leaders of Israel, the USA and Great Britain responsible for the War in Iraq and the current developing confliccts--need to be severely curtailed and punished for their crimes against humanity. Let's be frank and be realistic here. These are war crimes--and if the international community accepts it and just allows it to happen, we face an impending war worse than WWI and WWII. The State of Israel should have been dissolved and administered by the United Nations more than two decades ago, after their first slew of major war-crimes. Now we have let it go to far, unbridled. Matthew A.J.י.B. 10:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

And how does it contribute to Misplaced Pages? Flayer 11:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
We need to view things in an objective manner, without going into these non-sense debates that many have about Israel vs. Hizbollah. Seriously, if someone is on either side of this conflict--they are contributing to the possible annihilation of 2/3 of humanity on Earth. People do not want to report the facts, they only want to report them as they support their siily argument and belief-system. Now we have these crazies on one side saying they want to develop bio-weapons to kill Arabs (race-specific viruses, for instance) and nutcases on the other side planning to blow themselves up. If Misplaced Pages wants to have any reputation for NPOV, people here need to focus on the reality of the matter, the danger of this whole conflict, and not go into pro-war tirades on either side's behalf. Matthew A.J.י.B. 11:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
"the danger of this whole conflict" is your own point of view. Flayer 12:42, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It's not my point of view. You just watch and see the natural flow of Cause and Effect (wyrd) if nothing is done to stop these events from escalating. The USA is already planning for an invasion of Iran, and if they carry it out, the Russian government has said that they will take it as an offense against their country. All of these Mid-East events point to a possible Third World War, and the USA and Israel are clearly fomenting this situation, and not alleviating it at all. The dangers are evident to even the leaders of those countries, who arrogantly disregard them despite their own acknowledgements of the possibility for a Third World War. Stockpiling nuclear weapons is supposed to be against international treaty, and yet they're all doing it. What a lovely fad. Matthew A.J.י.B. 03:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not appropriate here, perhaps you are looking for a political chat forum, this talk page is to add improvements and remove detriments to the article, not discuss world events. --zero faults 13:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The problems with biased perspectives is having a major impact on this article. There isn't even an extensive casualty list any longer. It's become all about Hizbollah-supporters defending that organisation and Israel-mongers acting as though this horrendous slew of war-crimes is some kind of justified act. Matthew A.J.י.B. 03:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
How exactly is a minor conflict, nowhere near the scale of the 1967 or 1973 wars, going to cause WW3 ? There aren't any major world powers directly involved in the fighting, or any threatening to become directly involved. The only country directly fighting is Israel, not even Lebanon is fighting. It's also interesting how you call the US a "war criminal", I suppose for supporting a UN recognized nation (Israel), while you don't have anything negative to say about Syria and Iran, who are providing weapons to a UN-banned terrorist organization, Hezbollah, specifically with the goal of killing civilians. Your idea to use the UN to somehow punish the US is also absurd, the US would just withdraw from the UN and evict them from their New York HQ if they got out of hand. Without any support from the US, the UN, already thoroughly impotent, would cease to exist altogether. StuRat 18:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Israel has been fomenting this situation for decades, yes. 1982 was a predecessor to this current event. The United States of America has added a new level to it, however, with their continued occupation of Iraq. And you clearly have not been reading much lately, if you think that world powers are not preparing for a global conflict. The Chinese government has openly talked about deploying nuclear weapons in various possible arenas, Russia has threatened to invade Alaska if the USA invades Iran, Muslim terrorist groups have stated their intention to take over southern France and then attack Spain from there, and Dick Cheney is talking about a second 9/11. Meanwhile, major stockpiling is going on both in the USA and in Russia. Israel has been deemed a war-criminal state since the 1970s, so your arguments about Iran and Syria are non-sense. yes, Iran and Syria deal with things in inappropriate ways on occasion because of a foolish approach to violence. however, their activities do not come close to the crimes of the USA and Israel, who have been interfering in the politics of not only Iran and Syria, but just about every country in the Middle East, since the 1950s. Just take the CIA's criminal interference with Mossadegh, as described by Kermit Roosevelt. Unfortunately the UN is the only body in existence that could be used to stop this conflict at the present. I do wish they had done their job properly in the 1970s or 80s and called for the dissolution of Israel as a state, but they have indeed proved, as you say 'impotent' for decades, mostly as a result of bullying by the G8, under the domination of the increasingly corrupt USA.
The USA is a war-criminal government because of their illegal actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. They invaded a sovereign nation, unprovoked, on false premises. They then proceeded to engage in officially-sponsored torture clearly banned under international law. Actually, this is all quite illegal by USA law. There are many people within the USA currently calling for the impeachment of president Bush and the conviction of those responsible in his administration for the Invasion of Iraq. They are not made war-criminals for supporting Israel, which is just partisanship and not a war-crime. However, the USA and Israel are both war-criminal governments for their own respective actions. Most recently, the 2003 Invasion of Iraq by the USA, and the current unprovoked criminal activity in Lebanon by Israel. Matthew A.J.י.B. 03:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Science fiction: Israel successfully bombs the coward Hasrallah in Damascus, Syria attacks Israel, Israel attacks Syria, Iran attacks Israel, USA attacks Iran, Russia attacks USA. Flayer 20:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Science fiction? this scenario sounds rather likely given statements by the Russians and Iranians. Matthew A.J.י.B. 03:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Please take this to your talk pages, this is not the place for general discussion. --zero faults 03:07, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I never took it to be a place for general discussion, but was making note of the foolish bias shown by many on this article, who simply want to condone vigilante behaviour by Hisbollah or state-sponsored terrorism by Israel. Matthew A.J.י.B. 03:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

530+ dead Hezbollah

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&clr=1&docid=56360.EN (10/08/2006)

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&clr=1&docid=56488.EN (11/08/2006)

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&clr=1&docid=56470.EN (11/08/2006)

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&clr=1&docid=56529.EN (12/08/2006)

Flayer 09:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

IDF is not necessarily the most objective source in this conflict. --Jambalaya 12:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
It is a claim. "530+ claimed by IDF , of which 165 claimed confirmed by IDF" Flayer 12:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Jambalya, I know you are being sarcastic. But must statistics during this conflict released by the idf have been true and the lebanese government has agreed with it. Im going to check these links and then do some investigation before we move further on with this. --Zonerocks 15:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

"IDF is not necessarily the most objective source in this conflict."

Umm... is Hezbollah? Yonatanh 20:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

How many times did the IDF--just call it Israeli military--say they took over a place and not. How many times did they say theu distroyed Hezbollah's capabilities amnd did not! How many times did they say they caught a Hezbollah leader? Did they not claim to have caught or killed Hassan Nasrallah? How many times did they try and fabricate an accomplishment? The Israeli military is definitily not realiable. Oh, ya I forgot they never intentionally bomb civilians either ot attack U.N. international observers...

69.196.164.190

Consensus vote: Captured, Kidnapped, or Abducted

Polls close on Monday at 8 pm CST
One vote only. Well it seems we have been talking about this for a week. I say let's settle this once and for all. --Zonerocks 18:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Definitions:

  • Kidnap - To seize and detain unlawfully and usually for ransom.
  • Capture - To take captive, as by force or craft; seize.
  • Abduct - To carry off by force; kidnap.
  • Vote here if you support the use of the word Captured (Sign your entry.)
  1. Support: I think it's a pretty neutral word taking into account the graveness of the conflict. --Jambalaya 18:55, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support: These soldiers are captured, not victims for a crime--imi2 19:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  3. Support: Per imi2. Lebanese prisioners in Israeli jails were captured inside Lebanon during the occupation. We use the same terms.-- Szvest 19:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support: Per Fayssal. Kidnap and abducted are words associated with criminal activities, not armed conflicts. There is a double standard on en: regarding the actions of Israel and its enemies. Using the term kidnap or abduction is equivalent to using murder for killings. Bombing civilian targets in Beirut is also illegal but no one proposes the use of the word murder. --Burgas00 20:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  5. Mega-ultra-Strong Support Kidnapped and abducted are both ultra-POV. "Captured" is the only neutral, factual description. Those who fail to see this are just pushing a POV. If we use "abducted" or "kidnapped" article quality will go to the floor. If they are choosen, am raising a moderation request, as both "kidnapped" and "abducted" are clear violations of NPOV.--Cerejota 20:30, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  6. Support. Most non-POV term on the roster. If "kidnapped" is used, this article will have a permanent NPOV warning tag. Italiavivi 20:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  7. Support: This is an armed conflict after all. The article name seems to indicate it. Mceder 20:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  8. Support: Capture is a POV word in this situation, while kidnapped is not. I just noticed that since the page was unprotected a few hours ago, new anon users have started taking over the editing, and one of the first things they did was changing all the "captured" to "kidnapped", although there has been a consensus to use the word "captured" for at least a week. If we allow "kidnapped" here, then other users will argue that the Israeli Operation Sharp and Smooth action in Balbeek was a kidnapping as well, and we're back to the old edit wars. Thomas Blomberg 22:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  9. Support Best term to use to keep the NPOV lovers happy. Iorek85 00:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Vote here if you support the use of the word Kidnapped (Sign your entry.)
  1. Support cross border intrusion and the kidnapped them, there using them as a ransom to get something. --Zonerocks 19:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support It was an illegal act, captured does not specify illegality, hence its POV by stating Hezbollah's actions were in any way legal. Crossing into another country without permission is illegal, breaknig a cease fire is illegal, murdering soldiers is illegal since no war, ransoming soldiers is illegal according to geneva convention, soldiers kin has not been notified of ways to contact them, illegal by geneva convention etc. --zero faults 19:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
    That is original research and is in violation of NPOV, as Hezbollah doesn't agree with it. At most we could say "Some sources descibe the captures as "kidnappings" or "abductions" or something like that but in general the article can only be un biased if we say "captured". This is sheer, obvious POV pushing.--Cerejota 20:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
    I agree. Also, I'm curious -- are you claiming, Zero, that the Israeli soldiers who have been killed in combat since Israeli began this campaign were murdered, and are murder victims? Italiavivi 20:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
    How is this remotely original research? Hezbollah is a militant group, not a nation, and is therefore not under the geneva convention. In order for the soldiers to be prisoners of war, it needs to be a nation, not a militant entity. If I, and a friend, launched an attack on a military patrol nearby, were we to take soldiers hostage it would be a kidnapping, not a "capture" as we would be a militant group or entity outside of the Geneva convention. To call this POV pushing is a terribly bad faith assessment that is also without base. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  3. Per above. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
    Please, fact check. The geneva conventions do apply to non-State actors acting within signing states, and under the Law of Land Warfare. Uniformed non-state militias are considered legal comabatants, even if they belong to irregular forces. Thsi is the basis of UN-mediated efforts to end various civil wars world-wide, and the basis for groups like HRW to treat Hezbollah as legitimate combatant to be held to the same standards as a State. Only Israel (ie, one side of the POV) calls this a "Kidnapping", and a large number of less POV but generally anti-Hezbollah forces use the weasel word "abducted". But the only true neutral term is "captured". Read the definitions above: if we say kidnapping, we will be breaching NPOV, because we will be saying that Hezbollah performed an illegal act, which is dsiputed and is pro-Israeli POV. Simple, if you can't see it, well go with your concience knowing you are violating WP:NPOV, you cant argue it was not explained in detail to you. Lastly, I am not breaching good faith: I am making an observation so that good faith editors do not fall, unwittingly, into POV pushing. There is a difference and I ask you retract and apologize for your personal attack. I do stand by my word: if we adopt "kidnapping" this article will cease to be neutral until we change it back to captured.--Cerejota 04:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
    Kidnaped is not only used by Israel, but by the White House, many prominent media, and perhaps others. Tewfik 05:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  4. Support Per zero Yonatanh 20:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  5. Support Per zero. They are not Samir Kuntar. Flayer 20:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  6. Support, as this is the term used by most news agencies. The Secretary-General is using the term "Kidnapping" in his statement to the Security Council on the adoption of a resolution on Lebanon. Fuzzy 21:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  7. Support. Kidnapping emphasizes that subjects were taken against their will. Capturing sounds more object-oriented and does not have the connotation of a situation one is being forced into. Sijo Ripa 00:37, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
    This is not true, the very definition of the word "capture" is to take using force. Kidnapping emphazises the illegality of an action, which in the context of this article is a contested POV.--Cerejota 04:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  8. Support. The only possible factual term. Lancsalot 00:42, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  9. Support as they were kidnapped to secure the release of arab prisoners which would make it for ransom. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 03:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  10. Support per above, taken hostage from across the border with the explicitly stated goal of prisoner exchange. Tewfik 05:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  11. Support per def and args above. ←Humus sapiens 05:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  12. Support captured gives the impression that they were taken prisoner during a normal wartime exercise, in reality they were taken during an attack across an internationally recognized border when there was no recent provocation from the Israeli side.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Vote here if you support the use of the word Abducted (Sign your entry.)
  1. Support -- abducted is a fairly neutral term. -- ArglebargleIV 19:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
  2. Support as second choice - Szvest 19:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussions here please:

I agree the term Kidnapped is somewhat POV, and during an armed conflict the correct term is naturally Captured. However, the incident took place before it became a war (or an armed conflict), hence the correct term, AFAIC, should be Kidnapping. Fuzzy 21:39, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Prisoners of War

How about we all forget about the words abducted, captured and kidnapped and simply use POW which stands for prisoner of war for those of you not familiar with it. Technically Israel and Lebanon were at a "state of war" before this 2006 conflict started so we can all just use the neutral term "POW" to determine prisoners from both sides. Fedayee 17:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Highly unacceptable. Technically Israel and Lebanon were at state of "ceasefire". Hez doesn't respect any legal status anyway. Hez kidnaped the soldiers, not Lebanese army. Flayer 21:26, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I see no problem with "captured" (nor either of the alternative terms), but "Prisoners of War" is just plain inaccurate, save maybe in a purely technical sense. 89.1.68.175 21:52, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The definition of kidnap implies illegality, the group operates illegally under UN Res 1559, the act was illegal as they crossed an international border, it was during the course of a cease fire, the soldiers were captured to force a prisoner swap (ie ransom) also illegal under geneva convention, they are being held for more then a week without a neutral international organization being made aware of their location adn status, also illegal under geneva convention, the soldiers have not been able to contact their kin after 1 week of capture, also illegal under geneva convention, the soldiers have had their lives threatened, also illegal under geneva convention. Stating captured is highly POV because it labels the actions to be legal as capturing soldiers is legal, however kidnapping implies ransom and illegality. --zero faults 03:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, putting this up for a vote merely illustrates the absurdity of this debate.
What Hezbollah did was patently illegal, no ifs, ands, or buts.
They illegally crossed into Israeli territory, and illegally abducted members of the IDF.
Everyone on Misplaced Pages could participate in this debate and posit a contrary point of view, but that wouldn't alter the facts on the ground.
No matter how much the apologists for Hezbollah's actions, or the actions of rogue regimes like Syria and Iran, want to contest the notion of truth, or replace it with some post-modern, Edward Said or Michel Foucalt-type subjectivity, they cannot alter essential, indisputable facts.
It's just that simple.

Ruthfulbarbarity 04:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


Ruth this is an important part of the article to show to readers that it was illegal. No where in the article does it say these actions where illegal. Thus these key words would show it. --Zonerocks 04:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

This whole talk section is full of POV and original research. People, regardless of what we thinka are the facts, we aruled by something called WP:NPOV. That means we cannot simply take one POV and push it. That means we must, like it or not, consider "apologists for Hezbollah" whoa re editors as part of the community: the language and hatred expressed to them here is disheartening. Basically, any editors who so much as mentions a belief in the illegality of Hezbollah's action is choosing a side in the POV and cannot claim to be part of writing an NPOV article. Please keep that in mind.

We can, I say we must, mention who considers Hezbollah's actions legal and illegal, and when and if the UN expresses any proper declaration in this respect include that. But this article cannot have an NPOV presentation and tone and at the same time say any actions by any side where illegal as a statement of facts. We must klimit ourselves to show facts and let the readers reach their own conclusions, as easy as that. That my friends is NPOV.--Cerejota 04:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

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