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How does ] apply to articles about recently deceased individuals? For example, an individual who meets ] and is fairly well-known has recently died. A Misplaced Pages article is created about them and a non-free image of them is used in the infobox. A newly taken freely licensed photo, etc. is no longer possible for obvious reasons, but that does not necessarily mean that a previously taken freely licensed photo of the person, which serves the same encyclopedic purpose, cannot be found or that someone may someday decide to freely license such a photo. Is using the non-free image considered to be acceptable, as sort of a placeholder, until a free image is found? Does it make any difference with respect to non-free use whether the article was created before or after the person died? -- ] (]) 04:23, 24 December 2015 (UTC) How does ] apply to articles about recently deceased individuals? For example, an individual who meets ] and is fairly well-known has recently died. A Misplaced Pages article is created about them and a non-free image of them is used in the infobox. A newly taken freely licensed photo, etc. is no longer possible for obvious reasons, but that does not necessarily mean that a previously taken freely licensed photo of the person, which serves the same encyclopedic purpose, cannot be found or that someone may someday decide to freely license such a photo. Is using the non-free image considered to be acceptable, as sort of a placeholder, until a free image is found? Does it make any difference with respect to non-free use whether the article was created before or after the person died? -- ] (]) 04:23, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
:It doesn't matter when the article was created. Generally, for a few months after the death of a person, there is a good chance that free media could be found uploaded as a result of the death (by those that had photos of the person from before the death). After some months, about 3 to 6 months, if these photos haven't matetialized, then a bonfire can be justified. --] (]) 14:40, 24 December 2015 (UTC) :It doesn't matter when the article was created. Generally, for a few months after the death of a person, there is a good chance that free media could be found uploaded as a result of the death (by those that had photos of the person from before the death). After some months, about 3 to 6 months, if these photos haven't matetialized, then a bonfire can be justified. --] (]) 14:40, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
== Fair-use status of Timed Text ==
(Head note, I've ] aborted all of these MFD's and venue moved them to this discussion board - a clear consensus on the legal and policy implications of these types of files is needed and individual MFD's are not the best place to ensure there is proper involvement. — ] <sup>]</sup> 04:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC))

A batch of timed text files have been considered for deletion, but on fair use violation claims. As copyvio's are speedy candidates, I've aborted the following MFD's in process to centralized the discussion here. (more to come shortly). — ] <sup>]</sup> 03:41, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*Prior participants pings:
*:{{ping|Moonriddengirl}} {{ping|Winkelvi}} — ] <sup>]</sup> 03:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Only}} {{ping|Brustopher}} {{ping|MaranoFan}} {{ping|Finnusertop}}. — ] <sup>]</sup> 04:01, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Finnusertop}} {{ping|Stefan2}} — ] <sup>]</sup> 04:02, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Teb728}} — ] <sup>]</sup> 17:31, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*Noticeboard pings to ], ], ], and note left on ]. — ] <sup>]</sup> 04:12, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
:{{ping|Xaosflux}} Can you restore ] and add it as an example too? --] (]) 06:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
::Ping to deleting administrator {{ping|JamesBWatson}}. — ] <sup>]</sup> 12:53, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

*File list (current examples)
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=== Initial discussion on MFD ===
{{Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/TimedText:All About That Bass by Meghan Trainor (sample).ogg.en.srt}}

=== Responses ===
I am working off the assumption that the .ogg file is being used in compliance with NFCC, that the song sample is being used to support discussion of the work. As long as the clip meets the 30 s/10% limits, I think the TimedText , which by necessity is to provide accessibility for a song sample, where the clip again is within time limits, is not a straight up copyright violation but can fall within our fair use allowances. (Particular these examples which are 4-6 lines of lyrics, at most). I do think that because of the technical limitations of the TimedText namespace (we can't include anything but exactly the timed text) that we need to use the talk page to 1) link to the media file that it is supporting, and 2) perhaps add some standard language via a template to explain that the text ''is'' copyrighted, but being used both as fair use for text, and to support accessibility of a non-free file that we also believe is being used under fair use. --] (]) 04:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
:To add to a comment Stefan made in the previous discussion, this template should identify the url to one of the approved lyric music sites where the lyrics were taken from to prove prior publication, and that we should include, as best we know, the lyric's author and publishing label and other relevant details. --] (]) 04:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
::Lyrics, as long as, credited to the artist, will fall under fair use and can be used. --] ♠ ] ♥ ] 07:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
:::If the song is in a language which the uploader understands, then the actual source may be the file on Misplaced Pages as the uploader may have listened to the sound file and written down the words he heard. --] (]) 10:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
::::Which technically is original research. The fair use of lyrics for TimedText ''should'' have an identified published source which could either be the album's liner notes or a recognized legal lyrics site (such as Metro Lyrics, IIRC). The time codes, that's less a problem, but because lyrics are default copyright and often different from the song's copyright owner, we should document that difference a bit more carefully than presume "this is what I heard them say". --] (]) 15:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::I think calling a transcription "original research" is too far. Especially as the source content of the description (the sound/video bite) is presented. Should the captioning include more than literal transcription (such as a descriptor like ''(sad tone)'' then it may approach OR, but that's not what we are talking about here. — ] <sup>]</sup> 15:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
::::::Would the descriptors in (the currently broken and incorrectly formatted) ] count as OR? If it's not described how the voice changes, a major aspect of what's happening in the sound clip is lost. ] (]) 15:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::::That's a great question, and I'm not sure of the answer - I'm still confident that strict transcription is not original research (as it in no way introduces a new new idea), I'm really not sure on this one. I'd tend to personally lean towards it not being OR in general. — ] <sup>]</sup> 16:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::::I'd have to double check in the game, but it should be noted that there would be subtitles in the game that one could turn on, but off the top of my head I cannot remember if they capture the distinctions. However, that itself is not so much a potential original research part as the actual transcription of the words proper. --] (]) 16:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
::::::Not really. Consider the number of infamous song lyrics that are misheard by people . No, in most cases, I don't expect such mistakes to be made, but they ''can'' happen. Add in the fact that for most songs the lyrics are copyrighted separation from the actual song, and that to me says that we should source the song's lyrics as we would any other fair use quotation. Which is not a difficult step (again, liner notes work, and if not that, Metro Lyrics), just keeping ourselves out of hot water. --] (]) 16:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::Do the (currently incorrectly formatted, titled and non-working) subtitles at ] constitute original research? ] is in Korean, and the subtitles seem to be a translation of the Korean text. --] (]) 20:50, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
* As I wrote in the MfD discussion, TimedText pages display wikicode instead of rendering the code, so it is inappropriate to put source information and/or FURs on the TimedText page itself. This information is better placed on either the TimedText talk page or, considering that there always should be a corresponding file, on the corresponding file information page. Since there already should be a FUR on the file information page, the natural location for TimedText source/FURs seems to be the file information page, and the FURs on that page could then be expanded to explain why subtitles are needed.
: I don't know in which situations it would be acceptable to add subtitles to non-free files. Apart from this, we need a standardised process for disputing the need for subtitles. --] (]) 10:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
* I mostly agree with respect to subtitle notation on talk pages or the main file page. Beyond that, I'd say that free subtitles to non-free files should be mostly dealt with in accordance to regular encyclopedicity and usefulness criteria. For non-free subtitles, we need to make sure they satisfy ] law, especially in regards to being excerpts of the whole thing. Beyond that, I'd say that NFCC policy should apply since subtitles are really a part of the media we are representing here.] (], ]) 11:10, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
* Shouldn't this be an RfC if we're trying to figure out a policy for timedtext? Also is this just a conversation about audio captions or video caption too? Also also, would it be worth contacting the WMF about potential changes to the TimedText namespace to make things like this simpler?. ] (]) 12:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*: Getting foundation advice may be prudent. — ] <sup>]</sup> 12:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*::{{ping|User talk:Mdennis (WMF)}}, talk page invite left. — ] <sup>]</sup> 13:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*:::], I'll check with legal. :) --] (]) 13:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*'''Probably a simple solution:''' I think the most simple solution would be to apply all guidelines and procedures that we already have in place for the "File:" namespace and apply them to the "TimedText" namespace. Pages in the "TimedText" will most likely always have some aspect of it that needs to be checked to ensure it is "free vs. non-free". For example, for deletion or free vs. non-free review, TimedText pages could be nominated for ] or ]. Also, the ] starting with "F" could also apply to pages in the "TimedText" namespace. Pages such as ] and ] could be updated to state that TimedText pages also apply to these guidelines. In a nutshell, we already have applicable guidelines in place: we just need to specify that the also apply to the "TimedText:" namespace in addition to the "File:" namespace. ] (]) 17:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
**I agree with {{u|Steel1943}}. The only confusing lingo in NFCC I can find is "also applies to the copy in the File: namespace" (NFCC#3) and "image or media description page contains " (NFCC#10). The latter should specify if it's the actual TimeText page, its talkpage, or the file description page of the media it is used with. NFC on the other hand looks okay to me. ] (] &#124; ] &#124; ]) 17:36, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

* '''WMF Legal thoughts''': As always, leading off with the ] that this isn't legal advice about what to do or not do. I would also add that I haven't looked at any specific transcriptions, just the issue in general, so you'll all have to decide what action you want to take, I'm just sharing some thoughts on the issue. From our perspective, an addition like adding timestamped lyrics is best looked at as a separate instance of copying and needs its own fair use justification, but likely has a good one. As you may have seen from the ], there are 4 factors that go into fair use: 1) purpose and character (especially whether it's transformative from the original) 2) type of work 3) how much is used and 4) market impact. In this case, the main purpose of transcribing these short recordings seems to me to be to make them accessible for people who, due to disability or other reasons, can't hear the material on a page, which could be a transformative use. Add to that the fact that transcriptions of short snippets of a work use very little of the original and are very unlikely to have any impact on the market for the work and there is a good overall fair use argument as long as no more is transcribed than necessary to illustrate the article where the snippet is present. There is also a good point of comparison in some parody music cases like Fisher v. Dees, 794 F.2d 432 (9th Cir. 1986) and Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, 510 U.S. 569 (1994), which held that copying a short part of the lyrics for a transformative parody was fair use, which would be a similar line of reasoning as copying a short part of only the lyrics to make a page more accessible to the hard of hearing. ] (]) 23:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
** It's good to know that we can treat this as fair use, making the issue more ''how'' we document that as fair use on WP due to limitations of the TimedText namespace. It does sound like dropping some type of rationale on the talk page would be an acceptable solution. (I do wonder if we could include noinclude/include markup on TimedText pages across the board as with templates as to transcribe the talk or a doc page like we do for templates without disrupting their feature.) --] (]) 23:27, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
*Some people above come close to saying that if there is a legitimate non-free use for the media file, there necessarily will be a legitimate non-free use for the timed text. I originally thought that would be so, but what would make a lyric transcription satisfy NFCC would have to be that the encyclopedic purpose of the non-free media is to give the lyrics. And after looking a few timed text files, I suspect that is the purpose for few if any:
::As I pointed out in the MfD transcluded above, the cited purpose is to illustrate the ''sound'' of the song.
::In ] the media rationale mentions lyrics, but in fact the lyrics of the song are well described in the article.
::In ] the media rationale also mentions lyrics, but IMO the lyrics of the clip are described by the article.
:It seems unlikely to me that the few line of lyrics in a clip would significantly increase reader understanding —] ] ] 11:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
::Let's assume that the sound sample that contains lyrics is justified for commentary on the music but not in any detail on the lyrics. The reason to include TimedText at that point is for accessibility then, not so much for non-free discussion. And because they are being included in a text form, we don't require the same "license and rationale" business we require for media files. I still do believe we need to have a template tag that asserts these are being used within fair use tied to the media file (perhaps even spelling out accessibility), and that they should be treated as quotes, and thus must be verifiable to a published sourced and not the editor's own ear. --] (]) 15:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
:::I don’t understand your assumption: If you assume that the use is in accord with the ], then I agree. But if you are assuming only fair use to provide accessibility, then I note that the EDP is intentionally more narrow than fair use. As the guideline for textual excerpts says, “Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea.” Although the list of purposes is not exclusive, it surely has to include some encyclopedic purpose. If there is no encyclopedic purpose in showing the lyrics, accessibility could be served optimally by a free textual description of the clip. —] ] ] 01:16, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
::::Providing accessibility to both deaf readers (consider if it was used in association with a video file) and for non-native English speakers seems perfectly in line with an encyclopedic purpose. --] (]) 01:36, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::Yes, perhaps for a video or perhaps if the lyrics in a song clip were the point of using the clip, etc. My point is that the use of timed text requires a separate rationale: the legitimacy of using timed text does not follow automatically from the media rationale. —] ] ] 09:14, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
::::::Except, and here's the key point: NFC does not directly cover text - it is for media files, which TimedText is not. Or more specifically we have no special requirements for rationale/etc. for text, beyond that meets ] - that is, a snippet of the full work and directly cited to the work it came. This type of use is acceptable under CC-BY's considerations of fair use of text works and our own policies. The only issue is that we can't directly attach additional information to the TimedText namespace without screwing up its function, as we would normally have a quote immediately followed by a citation. --] (]) 19:00, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Some information can be encoded in multiple ways. For example, subtitles can either be uploaded as a page in the TimedText namespace, or they could be directly inserted in a video file. Music could either be included through wikicode (e.g. <score vorbis=1>c'</score>) or uploaded as a sound file. In such situations, I don't think that Misplaced Pages policy should make any difference based on whether the material was included by uploading a file or typing in wikicode. --] (]) 21:08, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
* I am not a lawyer, and I have no intention of arguing about the legality of the situation. If consensus is that this is acceptable fair use, then I shall not object to another administrator restoring the text that I deleted. However, I shall leave that to others. <small>''The editor who uses the pseudonym''</small> "]" (]) 15:28, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
* Notes: From where this was discussed elsewhere: ] includes adding captioning of non-words; ] regarding enwiki accessibility. — ] <sup>]</sup> 19:38, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:36, 6 January 2016

This is an archive of past discussions on Misplaced Pages:Non-free content. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Archive 60←Archive 63Archive 64Archive 65Archive 66Archive 67→Archive 70

Regarding this.

As that commenter said, should we keep large versions of non-free vector images since they can be scaled to any size? Hop on Bananas (talk) 01:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

    • It has been previously established that if we can legally acquire the logo vector directly from the company that owns the logo (off their website, off a PDF document they have , etc.), that that is an acceptable non-free, and because vectors are resolution-less , it is difficult to apply 3b to them. What we don't allow is the recreation as a vector of a non-free logo (in other words, no user-created non-free SVGs are allowed), and of course, if the only version available are raster images, these have to meet #3b. --MASEM (t) 15:47, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
      • Now, I've always assumed that the ban on user generated SVG versions is because they have too many copyrights attached to them, making them violations of the WP:FREER/NFCC#1 principle ("When using non-free media, the ones with the least restrictive copyright terms should be preferred").Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:52, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
        • There is that too, though arguably if the user recreates the non-free logo and then says "my SVG code is CC-BY", that's an "equivalent" free-ness as if the image is directly provided by the company that owns the logo (which covers both the graphical representation and the SVG for the most part). The main reason to avoid user-recreated non-frees is that they may not always be accurate at the small detail level, which can mis-represent the entity. It avoids derivative work issues related to that. --MASEM (t) 16:01, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

While I didn't know why we didn't allow user-created SVG non-free logos before reading those comments, this discussion is about WP:NFCC#3. Hop on Bananas (talk) 22:17, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

  • Is there a way to formulate a "minimal usage" standard for vectorized images? For regular images low size and low resolution are the definition of "minimal usage", but if vectors don't play by the same rule we need a vector-appropriate standard.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Talk Page / Meetup Page Usage

For the NYC Wikimedia chapter as follow up to events and as part of the event page clean vector logos from the partner organizations should be able to be used. The benefits are clear: Using the partner logos is professional, gives the pages graphic elements (which are sorely lacking), and if the logos are coming from the Commons, cross-usage should be encouraged. Specifically, the policy should not have to apply to logos of GLAM partner institutions shown on Misplaced Pages-space meetup pages and talk pages for new editors. This policy needs to be re-considered. BrillLyle (talk) 18:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

  • To clarify; BrillLyle is wanting to use File:Queens Library.svg on Misplaced Pages:Meetup/NYC/AfroCrowd/Press. For an example of intended usage, see this. I've explained that such usage violates WP:NFCC #9 and can not be allowed, and further that if he wants to use the logo in this manner he needs to seek an exemption from the policy here at this talk page. Thus, why it's come here. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
    • The significant point here is that GLAM partner organizations desire to be identified by their logos, as the Misplaced Pages namespace is de facto also sometimes an event-organizing platform. While logos should not be used gratuitously in non-article space, I can only think it is appropriate to show the logo of a partner GLAM organization on a particular project (this is very different, for example, from someone showing off their favorite brand on their user page).--Pharos (talk) 19:54, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Even if it weren't for NFCC 9, I don't see how it would pass 8. There's no pressing need for the logo, the name would quite suffice. Might be a "nice to have", but that's textbook decorative use. Seraphimblade 20:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
    • The more basic question I would ask is: Why do we have this overarching policy in the first place? I would say it is for two reasons, (1) For article pages, to encourage the creation and replacement on non-free images by free images and (2) for non-article pages, to prevent the proliferation and miscellaneous use of non-free images that might be be violating copyright, or that would make third party use problematic. In this case, neither justification really applies. The use of a GLAM logo on a meetup page is not preventing the creation of free images, it's not violating copyright, and it's not endangering third party use in any way. Really, the meetup pages are not part of the encyclopedia itself (such rules are never applied to identical pages on a Wikimedia chapter website), and should be treated differently.--Pharos (talk) 20:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
      • We have that policy because this is a free content project, and so we use nonfree content only sparingly, only to enhance educational article content, and only when it's clearly necessary. In an article about a company, the logo is a core part of the identity and branding of many companies, so use of the logo is necessary. As a decoration for a meetup page, it's not, so it's not allowed, since a text list of organizations would suffice to convey the information. What chapters do on their own websites is of course up to them, but all pages on Misplaced Pages must follow the NFCC rules. Perhaps if you really want to use the logos, you could consider having a chapter host it and linking to that page, that would be perfectly fine. Seraphimblade 20:55, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is inconsistent with the Wikimedia Foundation's licensing policy, which indicates that nonfree content may be used only to enhance article content. The proposal doesn't seem to be well thought out at all, since BrillLyle's comment above suggests that partner logos from Commons can't be used on meetup and talk pages, even though it should be obvious that they can be. Moreover, having taken a quick look at the proposed use, I don't see why someone couldn't extract the "Queens Library" typography, which is recognizable without being copyrightable. That would be more consistent with the other logos displayed. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 20:16, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. No exceptions are allowed by default and the only exceptions allowed by request are non-article space pages "that are used to manage questionable non-free content" (WP:NFEXMP), and the page described in this request surely isn't one. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 20:31, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Perhaps one should encourage these partner organizations to license their logos - I find it unlikely that a logo would need more than attribution and trademarks to serve their purposes. Sort of a NFCC#1 concern this one - instead of accepting non-frees in metaspace, encourage the licensing thereof may be preferable.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:21, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Non-free TimedText

How should non-free TimedText be handled? I can't find anything about it. Apparently a non-free use rationale can't be added directly to the TimedText page. Does the rationale on the related media file suffice? Or should a rationale be placed on the TimedText Talk page? —teb728 t c 19:14, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Talk page would be acceptable. It's a fair around the technical limitation. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

NFCC#1 and recently deceased persons

How does WP:NFCC#1 apply to articles about recently deceased individuals? For example, an individual who meets WP:GNG and is fairly well-known has recently died. A Misplaced Pages article is created about them and a non-free image of them is used in the infobox. A newly taken freely licensed photo, etc. is no longer possible for obvious reasons, but that does not necessarily mean that a previously taken freely licensed photo of the person, which serves the same encyclopedic purpose, cannot be found or that someone may someday decide to freely license such a photo. Is using the non-free image considered to be acceptable, as sort of a placeholder, until a free image is found? Does it make any difference with respect to non-free use whether the article was created before or after the person died? -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:23, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter when the article was created. Generally, for a few months after the death of a person, there is a good chance that free media could be found uploaded as a result of the death (by those that had photos of the person from before the death). After some months, about 3 to 6 months, if these photos haven't matetialized, then a bonfire can be justified. --MASEM (t) 14:40, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Fair-use status of Timed Text

(Head note, I've WP:IAR aborted all of these MFD's and venue moved them to this discussion board - a clear consensus on the legal and policy implications of these types of files is needed and individual MFD's are not the best place to ensure there is proper involvement. — xaosflux 04:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC))

A batch of timed text files have been considered for deletion, but on fair use violation claims. As copyvio's are speedy candidates, I've aborted the following MFD's in process to centralized the discussion here. (more to come shortly). — xaosflux 03:41, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: Can you restore TimedText:Meghan Trainor - Lips Are Movin.ogg.en.srt and add it as an example too? --MaranoFan (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Ping to deleting administrator @JamesBWatson:. — xaosflux 12:53, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • File list (current examples)
  1. TimedText:Like I'm Gonna Lose You.ogg.en.srt
  2. TimedText:Dear Future Husband.ogg.en.srt
  3. TimedText:Title.ogg.en.srt
  4. TimedText:Charlie Puth & Meghan Trainor - Marvin Gaye.ogg.en.srt
  5. TimedText:Better When I'm Dancin'.ogg.en.srt
  6. TimedText:WIF & Meghan Trainor.ogg.en.srt
  7. TimedText:Adele - When We Were Young Clip.ogg.en.srt
  8. TimedText:All_About_That_Bass_by_Meghan_Trainor_(sample).ogg.en.srt
  9. TimedText:Lady GaGa-Poker Face.ogg.en.srt
  10. TimedText:Adele - Hello Clip.ogg.en.srt
  11. TimedText:Sample of "Jealous" by Nick Jonas.ogg.en.srt
  12. TimedText:Lady GaGa-Just Dance.ogg.en.srt
  13. TimedText:Meghan Trainor - Lips Are Movin.ogg.en.srt

Initial discussion on MFD

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the discussion was Speedy Close This discussion is important, but this is primarily a copyright question ("is this fair use") If it is not fair use then this is subject to speedy deletion already. Moving this to a more in depth conversation at Misplaced Pages talk:Non-free content - will seek additional input there as well. — xaosflux 03:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

TimedText:All About That Bass by Meghan Trainor (sample).ogg.en.srt

TimedText:All About That Bass by Meghan Trainor (sample).ogg.en.srt (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Question has arisen about whether a timed text page like this is acceptable. What has been created is a timed text version of song lyrics which are copyright material. The audio clip it's attached to is copyright as well, but being used with a fair use rationale. Is it acceptable to create a timed text of copyright material? Apparently other texts like this exist, but because timed text is such an unexplored space, I don't see a specific policy spelled out about it. Discussion here could help establish consensus. only (talk) 16:28, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

  • But it's barely any text. How (I ask as someone with little knowledge of fair use) is this any less acceptable than quoting a sentence from a book? The average musician's page on Wikiquote probably has far more copyrighted content that your average TimedText. It's not all the lyrics to the song or anything. Also while TimedText on audio may not be too helpful for the deaf, it could be more beneficial to those hard of hearing or people who just can't make out the lyrics of certain songs. Brustopher (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
  • But are TimedText pages media files? They're SubRip text files and in a separate namespace to the File namespace, so aren't they closer to text quotations than the media files which fall under that policy. Also they're used as a component of a media file that already has a written rationale. Brustopher (talk) 22:56, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree that the question you pose is what their use (and consequentially the faith of this nomination) hangs on. If they are not 'files', they are textual quotations that must be "properly attributed or cited to its original source or author (as described by the citation guideline), and specifically indicated as direct quotations via quotation marks, <blockquote>, or a similar method" (WP:NFCC). Our non-free content policies only recognize these two types of content - quotations and media - and there is nothing in between. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 23:02, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
This is starting to get into complicated territory. Wouldn't it be best to sort this out in a policy RfC, instead of at MfD? Because if this page gets deleted, it follows that pretty much every single other TimedText page on enwiki for an audio file has to go too. There seems to be 20 different discussion going on at this topic in 20 different places, and it would be helpful if we could find a centralised location to discuss it. Brustopher (talk) 23:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
  • If these pages are 'files', then a fair use rationale is needed, per WP:NFCC#10c. If they are not files, then source information is still needed, per WP:CITE. The obvious follow-up question is then where we should place the fair use rationale or source information. The TimedText namespace is a bit special in that you see the wikicode, so it is not ideal to put the information in that namespace. One option is to put the information on the talk page. However, considering that the entire purpose of a TimedText page is to use the page together with a file in the file namespace, and considering that the file needs a file information page with some information anyway, the natural location for this information seems to be the file information page, i.e. the fair use rationale on the file information page should specify why a TimedText page is needed.
The next issue is to figure out when we need a TimedText page for a non-free file in the first place. Since this is a situation which hasn't been discussed a lot in the past, it may be a good idea to start an RfC at WP:VPP or WT:NFC and try to establish some kind of policy or consensus. I don't think that a badly advertised MfD is the best location for writing a policy. --Stefan2 (talk) 01:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.


Responses

I am working off the assumption that the .ogg file is being used in compliance with NFCC, that the song sample is being used to support discussion of the work. As long as the clip meets the 30 s/10% limits, I think the TimedText , which by necessity is to provide accessibility for a song sample, where the clip again is within time limits, is not a straight up copyright violation but can fall within our fair use allowances. (Particular these examples which are 4-6 lines of lyrics, at most). I do think that because of the technical limitations of the TimedText namespace (we can't include anything but exactly the timed text) that we need to use the talk page to 1) link to the media file that it is supporting, and 2) perhaps add some standard language via a template to explain that the text is copyrighted, but being used both as fair use for text, and to support accessibility of a non-free file that we also believe is being used under fair use. --MASEM (t) 04:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

To add to a comment Stefan made in the previous discussion, this template should identify the url to one of the approved lyric music sites where the lyrics were taken from to prove prior publication, and that we should include, as best we know, the lyric's author and publishing label and other relevant details. --MASEM (t) 04:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Lyrics, as long as, credited to the artist, will fall under fair use and can be used. --QEDK ♠ T ♥ C 07:57, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
If the song is in a language which the uploader understands, then the actual source may be the file on Misplaced Pages as the uploader may have listened to the sound file and written down the words he heard. --Stefan2 (talk) 10:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Which technically is original research. The fair use of lyrics for TimedText should have an identified published source which could either be the album's liner notes or a recognized legal lyrics site (such as Metro Lyrics, IIRC). The time codes, that's less a problem, but because lyrics are default copyright and often different from the song's copyright owner, we should document that difference a bit more carefully than presume "this is what I heard them say". --MASEM (t) 15:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I think calling a transcription "original research" is too far. Especially as the source content of the description (the sound/video bite) is presented. Should the captioning include more than literal transcription (such as a descriptor like (sad tone) then it may approach OR, but that's not what we are talking about here. — xaosflux 15:42, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Would the descriptors in (the currently broken and incorrectly formatted) TimedText:GLaDOS_Voice_Change.ogg.en.srt count as OR? If it's not described how the voice changes, a major aspect of what's happening in the sound clip is lost. Brustopher (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
That's a great question, and I'm not sure of the answer - I'm still confident that strict transcription is not original research (as it in no way introduces a new new idea), I'm really not sure on this one. I'd tend to personally lean towards it not being OR in general. — xaosflux 16:11, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
I'd have to double check in the game, but it should be noted that there would be subtitles in the game that one could turn on, but off the top of my head I cannot remember if they capture the distinctions. However, that itself is not so much a potential original research part as the actual transcription of the words proper. --MASEM (t) 16:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Not really. Consider the number of infamous song lyrics that are misheard by people . No, in most cases, I don't expect such mistakes to be made, but they can happen. Add in the fact that for most songs the lyrics are copyrighted separation from the actual song, and that to me says that we should source the song's lyrics as we would any other fair use quotation. Which is not a difficult step (again, liner notes work, and if not that, Metro Lyrics), just keeping ourselves out of hot water. --MASEM (t) 16:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
Do the (currently incorrectly formatted, titled and non-working) subtitles at TimedText:B.A.P - Warrior.ogg constitute original research? File:B.A.P - Warrior.ogg is in Korean, and the subtitles seem to be a translation of the Korean text. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:50, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
  • As I wrote in the MfD discussion, TimedText pages display wikicode instead of rendering the code, so it is inappropriate to put source information and/or FURs on the TimedText page itself. This information is better placed on either the TimedText talk page or, considering that there always should be a corresponding file, on the corresponding file information page. Since there already should be a FUR on the file information page, the natural location for TimedText source/FURs seems to be the file information page, and the FURs on that page could then be expanded to explain why subtitles are needed.
I don't know in which situations it would be acceptable to add subtitles to non-free files. Apart from this, we need a standardised process for disputing the need for subtitles. --Stefan2 (talk) 10:17, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • I mostly agree with respect to subtitle notation on talk pages or the main file page. Beyond that, I'd say that free subtitles to non-free files should be mostly dealt with in accordance to regular encyclopedicity and usefulness criteria. For non-free subtitles, we need to make sure they satisfy fair use law, especially in regards to being excerpts of the whole thing. Beyond that, I'd say that NFCC policy should apply since subtitles are really a part of the media we are representing here.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:10, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Shouldn't this be an RfC if we're trying to figure out a policy for timedtext? Also is this just a conversation about audio captions or video caption too? Also also, would it be worth contacting the WMF about potential changes to the TimedText namespace to make things like this simpler?. Brustopher (talk) 12:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    Getting foundation advice may be prudent. — xaosflux 12:59, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    @Mdennis (WMF):, talk page invite left. — xaosflux 13:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    Xaosflux, I'll check with legal. :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:08, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Probably a simple solution: I think the most simple solution would be to apply all guidelines and procedures that we already have in place for the "File:" namespace and apply them to the "TimedText" namespace. Pages in the "TimedText" will most likely always have some aspect of it that needs to be checked to ensure it is "free vs. non-free". For example, for deletion or free vs. non-free review, TimedText pages could be nominated for WP:FFD or WP:PUF. Also, the speedy deletion criteria starting with "F" could also apply to pages in the "TimedText" namespace. Pages such as WP:NFC and WP:NFCC could be updated to state that TimedText pages also apply to these guidelines. In a nutshell, we already have applicable guidelines in place: we just need to specify that the also apply to the "TimedText:" namespace in addition to the "File:" namespace. Steel1943 (talk) 17:21, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    • I agree with Steel1943. The only confusing lingo in NFCC I can find is "also applies to the copy in the File: namespace" (NFCC#3) and "image or media description page contains " (NFCC#10). The latter should specify if it's the actual TimeText page, its talkpage, or the file description page of the media it is used with. NFC on the other hand looks okay to me. Finnusertop (talk | guestbook | contribs) 17:36, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • WMF Legal thoughts: As always, leading off with the disclaimer that this isn't legal advice about what to do or not do. I would also add that I haven't looked at any specific transcriptions, just the issue in general, so you'll all have to decide what action you want to take, I'm just sharing some thoughts on the issue. From our perspective, an addition like adding timestamped lyrics is best looked at as a separate instance of copying and needs its own fair use justification, but likely has a good one. As you may have seen from the fair use wikilegal posting, there are 4 factors that go into fair use: 1) purpose and character (especially whether it's transformative from the original) 2) type of work 3) how much is used and 4) market impact. In this case, the main purpose of transcribing these short recordings seems to me to be to make them accessible for people who, due to disability or other reasons, can't hear the material on a page, which could be a transformative use. Add to that the fact that transcriptions of short snippets of a work use very little of the original and are very unlikely to have any impact on the market for the work and there is a good overall fair use argument as long as no more is transcribed than necessary to illustrate the article where the snippet is present. There is also a good point of comparison in some parody music cases like Fisher v. Dees, 794 F.2d 432 (9th Cir. 1986) and Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, 510 U.S. 569 (1994), which held that copying a short part of the lyrics for a transformative parody was fair use, which would be a similar line of reasoning as copying a short part of only the lyrics to make a page more accessible to the hard of hearing. Jrogers (WMF) (talk) 23:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
    • It's good to know that we can treat this as fair use, making the issue more how we document that as fair use on WP due to limitations of the TimedText namespace. It does sound like dropping some type of rationale on the talk page would be an acceptable solution. (I do wonder if we could include noinclude/include markup on TimedText pages across the board as with templates as to transcribe the talk or a doc page like we do for templates without disrupting their feature.) --MASEM (t) 23:27, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Some people above come close to saying that if there is a legitimate non-free use for the media file, there necessarily will be a legitimate non-free use for the timed text. I originally thought that would be so, but what would make a lyric transcription satisfy NFCC would have to be that the encyclopedic purpose of the non-free media is to give the lyrics. And after looking a few timed text files, I suspect that is the purpose for few if any:
As I pointed out in the MfD transcluded above, the cited purpose is to illustrate the sound of the song.
In TimedText:Dear Future Husband.ogg.en.srt the media rationale mentions lyrics, but in fact the lyrics of the song are well described in the article.
In TimedText:Like I'm Gonna Lose You.ogg.en.srt the media rationale also mentions lyrics, but IMO the lyrics of the clip are described by the article.
It seems unlikely to me that the few line of lyrics in a clip would significantly increase reader understanding —teb728 t c 11:14, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Let's assume that the sound sample that contains lyrics is justified for commentary on the music but not in any detail on the lyrics. The reason to include TimedText at that point is for accessibility then, not so much for non-free discussion. And because they are being included in a text form, we don't require the same "license and rationale" business we require for media files. I still do believe we need to have a template tag that asserts these are being used within fair use tied to the media file (perhaps even spelling out accessibility), and that they should be treated as quotes, and thus must be verifiable to a published sourced and not the editor's own ear. --MASEM (t) 15:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I don’t understand your assumption: If you assume that the use is in accord with the Exemption Doctrine Policy, then I agree. But if you are assuming only fair use to provide accessibility, then I note that the EDP is intentionally more narrow than fair use. As the guideline for textual excerpts says, “Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea.” Although the list of purposes is not exclusive, it surely has to include some encyclopedic purpose. If there is no encyclopedic purpose in showing the lyrics, accessibility could be served optimally by a free textual description of the clip. —teb728 t c 01:16, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Providing accessibility to both deaf readers (consider if it was used in association with a video file) and for non-native English speakers seems perfectly in line with an encyclopedic purpose. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Yes, perhaps for a video or perhaps if the lyrics in a song clip were the point of using the clip, etc. My point is that the use of timed text requires a separate rationale: the legitimacy of using timed text does not follow automatically from the media rationale. —teb728 t c 09:14, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Except, and here's the key point: NFC does not directly cover text - it is for media files, which TimedText is not. Or more specifically we have no special requirements for rationale/etc. for text, beyond that meets WP:QUOTE - that is, a snippet of the full work and directly cited to the work it came. This type of use is acceptable under CC-BY's considerations of fair use of text works and our own policies. The only issue is that we can't directly attach additional information to the TimedText namespace without screwing up its function, as we would normally have a quote immediately followed by a citation. --MASEM (t) 19:00, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
Some information can be encoded in multiple ways. For example, subtitles can either be uploaded as a page in the TimedText namespace, or they could be directly inserted in a video file. Music could either be included through wikicode (e.g. c') or uploaded as a sound file. In such situations, I don't think that Misplaced Pages policy should make any difference based on whether the material was included by uploading a file or typing in wikicode. --Stefan2 (talk) 21:08, 26 December 2015 (UTC)