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Wrong way round?

On the page, the Prime Minister Ehud Olmert inaccurately is above the President Moshe Katsav. I thought you put the head of state first, then the head of government. Can someone please sort it out? I can't because of this semi-protection (I'm a new Wikipedian). Thanks RJL 20:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

It was originally the way you say, then changed, citing the fact that the PM holds the power. However, that doesn't seem to be a relevant argument, as the head of state is the first mentioned in all the articles I looked at, such as Germany, United Kingdom, and India, all of them countries where actual power is wielded by the PM, not the president/monarch. Thus, I'm changing it back. okedem 20:23, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

See my comment above (section 23.1 in the table of contents), from a couple of days ago, after this change was made. I agree, the president should be listed above the PM. It is a matter of "protocol", not actual power. 6SJ7 20:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Head of State should go first. This shouldn't even be an issue. john k 22:16, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Tag for Human Rights

Editors on this page have consistently deleted a vague listing noting a few major organizations that criticize human rights in Israel. As it stands now, there is no indication there is any criticism whatsoever. This is not a representation of the reality of the situation, and represents a severe bias. Therefore the article does not have neutrality. I suggest we work on a way to address this fairly together, so that a handful will stop hurting the article by deleting anything they see as criticism. Sarastro777 04:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a nice link to the main article on Human rights in Israel just after the heading, and there is plenty of fodder for those who wish to find fault with the state of Israel in that article :) So, what exactly is your gripe, if I may ask? Thanks. -- Avi 04:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please stop the personal attacks. "for those who wish to find fault with the State of Israel" -- we've been over this. Any "fault" is from the attributed Human Rights Groups, not the personal view of the editor. You need to work on not taking documentation of human rights issues as an individual assault from the editors working on such articles in good faith.

Humus Sapien's edit note: replaced Sarastro's cherrypicking of irrelevant groups with a variety of relevant ones, mention freedom of press within Israel)

the "irrelevant groups" he deleted were:

• Human Rights Watch
• Amnesty International
• The United Nations General Assembly
• The International Court of Justice
• Association for Human Rights in Israel

To say these groups are irrelevant is so funny it is hard to believe he actually expects anyone to take him credibly. Each group was followed with a specific reference to insure verifiability.

The "Freedom of the Press" is already in the main article. This out of context and isolated mention is inviting a lengthy examination of exceptions, which are already well documented. I don't see why it is helpful to go down this road. Your very smug response seems to indicate that you accept a bias issue in the section but are comfortable with it because you think the HR article contains "plenty of fodder." That viewpoint is not productive.

Sarastro777 05:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is my edit: . Note how I added a variety of relevant links of the groups highly critical of Israeli govt. policies, rather than Sarastro's cherrypicked selection of reports. Certain orgs have controversial relations with Israel (covered elsewhere: follow links), and issues of the conflict are also covered elsewhere. To say that freedom of speech does not belong to human rights section is ridiculous. Your constant efforts to besmirch Israel are duly noted. ←Humus sapiens 06:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see Misplaced Pages:Assume Good Faith & Misplaced Pages:No Personal Attacks Sarastro777 14:49, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Humus please refrain from personal attacks. I do not see any besmirching by any party other than yourself. Can we please focus on the improvement of this article and not attacking Sarastro777.--Oiboy77 16:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Said the thrice-blocked vandal. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The section on Human Rights in Israel is a joke, and censors any criticicism of the state of Israel by human rights groups. It even contradicts the main article on the subject, which includes statements giving a fair assessment.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.40.24.189 (talk • contribs) 10:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

What follows is the paragraph I added in the Human Rights section to correct the obvious bias present there:

On the other hand, Amnesty International reported that in 2005 "The Israeli army killed more than 700 Palestinians, including some 150 children. Most were killed unlawfully — in reckless shooting, shelling and air strikes in civilian residential areas; in extrajudicial executions; and as a result of excessive use of force. The Israeli army destroyed several hundred Palestinian homes, large areas of agricultural land, and infrastructure networks. Israel continued to expand illegal settlements and to build a fence/wall through the West Bank, confining Palestinians in isolated enclaves cut off from their land and essential services in nearby towns and villages. Israeli settlers increased their attacks against Palestinians and their property and against international human rights workers. Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes In August the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination called for the revocation of the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law, passed the previous year and extended for six months in July. The law institutionalized racial discrimination. It barred Israeli Arab citizens married to Palestinians from the Occupied Territories from living with their spouses in Israel, and forced families to either live apart or leave the country altogether.".

I see no reason why User:Humus sapiens has deleted it. He justified this deletion telling that the article is not about "the conflict". Neither the AI report is (indeed, half of the cite is about a law enforced by the State of Israel, it's about domestic policy). Moreover, I find it quite absurd to consider the Human Rights' record of Israel irrespective of its role in the Occupied Territories and irrespective of the "little detail" that this country is unfortunately involved in a conflict with its Arab neighbours since its very foundation! I reversed the deletion. If I did wrong, please explain me why before redeleting it. --MauroVan 13:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Certain organizations have controversial relations with Israel (covered elsewhere: follow links), and issues of the conflict are also covered elsewhere. In particular AI is not a reliable source for such claims. ←Humus sapiens 19:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that "somebody" (ie: you and probably the government of Israel) consider Amnesty International to be unreliable (without giving any explanation of the reason why) doesn't mean that such a famous and widely known organization shouldn't be cited in Misplaced Pages. I think that other organizations (ie: the ones that you and the government of Israel like to quote) are much more unreliable (because they are strongly biased in favour of the USA and their allies, and I have an unverified theory on the reason why, too), and yet I didn't delete their astonishing statements from this article.

Moreover, as you can see on the same Misplaced Pages article you linked, AI is not being accused by anybody of falsification, it's just being accused of attacking democratic countries more than the others. Since I didn't quote a comparison between Israel and other countries (if we just want to understand whether Israel violates human rights, what Egypt does has no importance), these allegations simply don't fit in the debate.

You didn't give a good justification for your aggressive deletion, so my edit will be there again, and I really urge you to avoid deleting it again (that's what most people call an "edit war" and it's not allowed on Misplaced Pages). Let the readers decide if they feel AI deserves their confidence, and let the readers decide if they want to find by themselves some more information on this issue. Don't just prevent them from getting information because you believe you know what's best for them to read or not to read. Thank you very much and forgive my bad English. --MauroVan 08:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not represent the government of Israel. Unfortunately, AI's is one of groups (another is HRW) whose record towards Israel is highly controversial. Again, do not turn this article into one about the conflict. "Let the readers decide" is a really bad argument not worthy a response. ←Humus sapiens 11:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You are clearly waging an edit war. You just rewrote exactly what I already replied to, ignoring completely my lenghty explanation about why you should NOT delete those sentences. The fact that you and somebody else (who?) feel that AI is a "controversial organization" does not mean that they falsify their reports. If you think that, please explain why and AFTER THAT maybe delete the paragraph. I will not put the paragraph back because I am not a vandal. First you need to be blocked because you wage edit wars. AFTER THAT I will put the paragraph there. --MauroVan 12:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm here in response to MauroVan's request for comment. I recognize that you all know the subject matter better than I do, but can offer some suggestions.

1. In general, I think the goal of this section should be to offer a high-level summary of the information in the more specific Human rights in Israel article. I think in general, fewer quotes and a shorter, broad summary, would be good.
2. With regard to the UN and NGO criticism, the more specific article seems to say (1) some UN groups and NGOs are highly criticical of human rights in Israel but (2) various pro-Israel sources have accused those groups of bias. Is it possible to say something like that?
3. A lot of the UN and NGO criticism (although certainly not all) seems to focus around the Occupied Territories as opposed to Israel proper. Would it be helpful to have separate "Human rights in Israel" and "Human rights in the Occupied Territories" sections?

Thanks, and good luck, TheronJ 14:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Forcing civilians to leave their homes/country

Is considered terrorism. I added an NPOV-tag until this issue is resolved. --Daniel575 20:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

terrorism

1. The deliberate commission of an act of violence to create an emotional response from the victim in the furtherance of a political or social agenda.
2. Violence against civilians to achieve military or political objectives.
3. A psychological strategy of war for gaining political or religious ends by deliberately creating a climate of fear among the popuation of a state.

ANY QUESTIONS? --TheYmode 21:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if someone is trying to argue the IDF are terrorists for civilian deaths in Lebanon or if it is Hezbollah for the rockets. In either case, the definitions above hinge on the internal motive of the perpetrator. That is almost always hard to 'verify' and makes the label "terrorist" problematic and frequently based on the POV of the person using the word. 64.186.246.122 21:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that the motive is important. There is no need to read their mind to verify it, just listen to what they say to learn there intent (the quote in the article). BTW the citation in the article is broken I think, here 2 with the same quote that works, I'll add them to the article later (or if someone want to add them feel free) --TheYmode 22:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So... I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with a factually accurate and less loaded term like "forcing civilians to leave" or "making civilians leave"? Could TheYmode or Daniel575 explain? Thanks. --Birdmessenger 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That makes it sound like there was no crime. It is a completely warped version of what happened. I do not know how else to explain this to anyone who does not understand. --Daniel575 22:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The term Terrorism IS factually and accurate in this case, its as simple as that. And calling it something else is POV. --TheYmode 22:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct. --Daniel575 22:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

For better or worse, we are all obligated to justify our edits, even if they make common sense to you. And I appreciate your efforts to do so (sincerely).

I disagree that describing the situation as Hezbollah as trying to "force" Israelis to leave is "completely warped". Given that we provide a direct quote, why can't the reader be trusted to make up his or her own mind about the criminal nature of Hezbollah's intentions? --Birdmessenger 22:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

So I guess we should remove the entire characterization "He further outlined his organization's strategy of terrorizing Israeli civilians into leaving their country", especially since the reference attached to it is a dead link. We don't really need a characterization one way or another; "We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis" is sufficiently vile (or, if you prefer, inspiring) that anyone can figure it out on their own. --jpgordon 23:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've come up with a description which is accurate, but which doesn't use the contentious word "terrorising". Jayjg 16:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Is somebody here actually trying to say that Israel is a terrorist state? No way this should be allowed. Ackoz 21:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Ah, no, I don't think anyone's saying that right here. Actually, it was a question of how to characterize a specific statement by a Hezbollah leader. --jpgordon 00:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Haim Ramon Quote

This should be in the portion as much as the quote from the Hossein Safiadeen. Both are notable; unless of course you think it's NPOV to put in the quote that he said about justifying the killing of women and children and calling them terrorist as much as the Arab stating "They will not make Israel safe for Israelis."Volksgeist 13:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Edits by someone who states "Just because you are a Jewish" in an edit summary and accuses them of dual loyalty on their talk page will never, ever stay on this article. Jayjg 17:08, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So do you have a personal problem or can you respond to the question? Volksgeist 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I've responded. Now, why don't you go defend apartheid or Adolf Hitler, or go rant about The Jews in the media and how the media is unfair to "white people", or go on about the kind of power Jews have over the US, or rant about how the "Jews of the world" are shoving "diversity" and "acceptance" down the throat of European peoples? Jayjg 18:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

For someone with a German name translating roughly as "the people's ghost" I am not surprised. I already noticed his weird username immediately when he had just registered. --Daniel575 18:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "volksgeist" was some mystical notion about "the people's spirit", something the Nazis thought the "Aryan race" had an abundance of. Jayjg 18:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So, Jayjg, is your problem that the quote is accurate or that you simply have a personal problem with me? Volksgeist 18:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Our problem is with someone who has on multiple occasions expressed clear antisemitic thought. --Daniel575 18:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Does that not mean Mr Ramon did not state the quote at an Israel Security Cabinet meeting as Israel was bombing civilian targets in Lebanon? Volksgeist 19:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there a policy that supports that, or is this just your POV? You can't just decide to disregard and attack a contributor because you have some personal animus against them. There are plenty of Editors on here who express clearly biased thoughts in other realms. I don't see any outcry against them, nor should there be as everyone's input counts. You can disagree with someone politically and still Misplaced Pages:Assume Good Faith. I don't see that happening... very bad example from an Admin. Sarastro777 18:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarastro, I would like you to check out this and the two things linked to there (July 1947 and November 1947). Also read this and also read this. That is my position. It is quite hilarious of you to accuse me of having a pro-Israel POV. If you check my talk page, you will see that Zionists threaten me and call me a poison, a dog, and other things. Your accusations of me being pro-Israel are plain hilarious. --Daniel575 18:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

On a different board I referred to people "here" (Misplaced Pages) having a Pro-Israel POV. You took this as a personal reference, which it was not. Your assumption that Daniel575 = "here" is equally hillarious :-) Sarastro777 22:58, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Sarastro777, I'm not sure what "political disgreement" you are referring to; are you referring to Volksgeist's beliefs that apartheid was wonderful, Hitler was great, the British and French started World War II, the Jews are forcing race-mixing on Europeans and controlling the United States? If so, I happen to disagree with that, but I don't view those as necessarily political positions. Jayjg 18:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Please cite something that is an example of how I think "Hitler was Great" or that the "British and French started World War II." You can see my contributions to articles and none of them are biased. Furthermore, this quote was in the article for at least a week before someone started throwing in NPOV and changed a lot of things (which I rewrote and still stand). The quote is in numerous sources and belongs here. You are removing it simply on the fact you do not like my opinions. Furthermore, from your history, you seem to have a pro-Israeli viewpoint, is that why are you removing the quote? Because you certainly don't want to value free speech if you feel on removing a citable quotation because you do not belief with the person who added it. Volksgeist 19:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"I don't get why Germany is blamed for the start of WW2 when the Soviets did the same. I would argue that France and the UK did by declaring war on Germany". Now why don't you go and find a citation for your claim that the Uruguayan birth rate is low because of "the racial characteristics of the nation" Jayjg 19:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You still have not answered me. Did the Haim Ramon not state the quote (and it is an acceptable contribution to the article) or are you simply removing it on your own personal bias of a wikipedia user? Volksgeist 19:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add this quote was in the article for a two weeks before someone decided to delete it. That's the RV. Volksgeist 19:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

And that's really the issue in this discussion, not what editors disagree with in entirely different articles. That's a distraction tactic from the point at hand. Sarastro777 19:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You asked me for a quote showing your claim that the British and French started WWII. I provided it. Jayjg 19:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think this quote should not be included in the article, because, veritable or not, it does not reflect the official standpoint of Israel in its conflict with Lebanon. The Israeli Defense Army's aim was all along to destroy Hezbollah's launching posts and eliminate its members. Unlike Hezbollah, the IDF warned the civilians in the areas it was about to bomb by means of leaflets dropped from aircrafts. The fact that many civilians didn't leave the attacked areas, for various reasons, and subsequently killed is another issue, and the death of civilians was unintentional. Therefore, using Ramon's slip of the tongue as a representation of Israel's standpoint puts it out of context. It is very curious indeed, Volksgeist, that you chose to quote this out of all the things said by Israel's political representatives, a quote which totally condratics the Israeli government's perception --Lividore 22:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

First, let's address your totally misconstrued and biased summary of leafletting. Civilians that were "fleeing" per leaflet instructions were blown up by the IDF using guided missiles, including at least one incident of an ambulance. Later Israel banned all vehicles South of the Litani river and targeted any violators. The routes of evacuation such as bridges were blown up along with other infrastructure preventing any civilians from fleeing. The fact that Israel dropped some leaflets made no effective difference to the civilians. You insinuate they stayed in a dangerous warzone completely by their own volition, which is one the largest stretches of imagination I have yet read on this "Encylopedia" Unlike the state of the art guided bombs and missiles given to Israel by the U.S., which are precise... Hezbollah had 40 year old Soviet missiles which basically point and shoot without any pinpoint accuracy. Even if we discount this, they additionally do not have an airforce like Israel, again a la the United States. So no mechanism to drop propaganda on the soil of sovreign foreign countries nor any way to know precisely where the missiles would land... so no area to leaflet even if they had the means and the desire.

But as you said, that is another issue. Why would it be curious to quote a State Official that said ""Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hezbollah." ] That's an extremely belligerant and controversial statement. It's notable at the very least because of his positions as Minister of Justice and Minister of Internal Affairs, not to mention because of the content. Your position is nothing can be cited unless it is publicly passed by the Knesset as an official policy? I'm sorry, but that position is not supported by any Misplaced Pages guidelines. Sarastro777 22:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Then, Sarastro, we are also going to include some of this: "If they go from Sheba'a, we will not stop fighting them. Our goal is to liberate the 1948 borders of Palestine... can go back to Germany or wherever they came from.” (Hassan Ezzedin, Hezbollah spokesman) And this: Secretary-General Nasrallah’s official stance is that “Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival.” And this: "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel." Next we also have this one: Nasrallah said "I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called "Israel." I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle." So if you insist on including out-of-context quotes by Israeli politicians, we are also going to include these. Feel free to put Haim Ramon's quote back. But if you place it back, be aware that these quotes are going to be placed next to it. --Daniel575 | (talk) 22:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like you are threatening retaliatory vandalism because you disagree with what is clearly a relevant quote. Is it supposed to punish me personally that you say you are going to put a quote from Nasrallah? I am really confused by what you are trying to prove here other than you have a very strong bias. Sarastro777 23:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

So what it looks like is the reason certain people do not want the quote in is because of a personal bias towards myself. Furthermore, it seems the people complaining about it also seem to be ones who are members of Jewish groups on Misplaced Pages. Is because the quote displays Israel in a negative light is somehow not appropriate? Volksgeist 00:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Jew-haters get short shrift on Misplaced Pages. Get used to it. --jpgordon 00:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So, I guess, NPOV does matter if the original article has something to do with Judaism or Israel? Is the NPOV only for article not relating to the aforementioned? Volksgeist 01:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

My $0.02....first and foremost, in this case I think Volksgeist's credibility is irrelevant. The fact is that the quote in question is validated in major media (though I suspect it lost something in the translation) and I think we would need more factual grounds to keep it out. My recommendation would be to include it in a fashion that recognizes its context...a cabinet meeting discussion where the speaker's views were not adopted as the majority. A suggested inclusion: "Haim Ramon, the Israeli justice minister, fueled controversy and opposition to Israeli military actions when he said that 'Everyon in Lebanon etc etc.' The official Israeli position, however, remained one of attacking specific Hezbollah targets, some of which were in civilian areas." Schrodingers Mongoose 03:38, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've rewrote the included quote and placed it inline with the comments from Hezbollah (this should appease both parties). They seem to go in par with each other. I've realized that when it comes to articles relating to Israel and Judaism, Misplaced Pages is hardly a place for a NPOV as articles will be reverted and Misplaced Pages administrator members of the "Judaism project" on Misplaced Pages will swoop in lock/delete/ban/whatever. Volksgeist 13:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Talk about WP:AGF -- Avi 13:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Volksgeist, you did not rewrite anything. You placed it back exactly as it was. The rest of what you are talking about is a big hallucination. As I said before, I am a virulent anti-Zionist who thinks Zionism is the biggest evil in the world. Zionism defiles the entire world with its impurity, Zionism causes wars, bloodshed and tragedies. The cursed Zionists, may their names be wiped out, such as Theodor Herzl, were atheist criminals, dirty traitors to the Jewish people. I do not want Israel to remain in existence, it should be dismantled as soon as this is practically feasible and replaced by a UN government. This is what those rabbis whom I consider to be the biggest Jewish leaders ever have determined. It is just laughable of you to accuse me of having a pro-Zionist POV. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I accused you of nothing. This is getting ridiculous, the quote was in the article for weeks and suddenly everyone that is part of the "Judasim project" here on Misplaced Pages keeps deleting the quote. It's verifable and should be included in the article, I have yet to hear a reason why it is not except by some idiot's personal bias. As I stated eariler it's quite obvious that anything having to do with Jews and Israel here is kept on a tight leash if it portrays them in anything that may be considered negative. Volksgeist 14:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not wanting input from Jew-haters into Jewish-related articles is hardly "some idiot's personal bias". Since you've expressed your position regarding Jews so clearly, it should hardly be a surprise that your contributions are looked at with skepticism and disgust. --jpgordon 14:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a problem that the article is virtually controlled by an iron curtain, all of users of which are part of some sort Judiasm project on Misplaced Pages. Seems like a conflict of interest as well. I guess that's how "the tribe" operates, independent of the nation stupid enough to take them in. Soon they will find themselves destitute and finaically ruined as Spain was by "the tribe." Volksgeist 18:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Volksgeist, you did. And you're doing it again. How many times do we have to repeat that this quote is a misrepresentation? It was one minister's opinion. It is not and was not and has never been the official opinion of the Israeli government. The way it was written and the way you want to put it back makes it sounds as if it is. It is not. That is a misrepresentation of the facts. Yes, Ramon said that. And the other cabinet members do not agree. It is not Israel's official policy. If you clarify that, it would change things. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I find that hard to believe. Bombing women, children, civilians, etc and then going "wait, it's not government policy?" Whatever. They (Israel) are the sole reason they are in this situation but I'm sure others will have to fight, die, and pay for it for them. Volksgeist 18:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

They (Israel) are the sole reason they are in this situation but I'm sure others will have to fight, die, and pay for it for them.

— Volksgeist, 18:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the above is WP:OR, and is not grounds for adding something to the article. -- Avi 18:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The above (18:41) is plain antisemitism. Any credibility Volksgeist ever had was just thrown out of the window. This is it. Volksgeist, just as a final desperate measure, take a look at this letter by Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum to a member of the British parliament. --Daniel575 | (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

How is saying Israel will get others to fight, die and pay for it for them... how is that anti-semitic (Is the nation of Israel a religion)? Do you not see the billions the United States gives Israel each year? (Even though their living standard is first world.) Volksgeist 19:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

What I see is that you are seeing complot theories on Misplaced Pages, talking about 'nations stupid enough to allow the Jews in', and 'how the Jews ruined Spain'. --Daniel575 | (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Back on Topic

Please, this section is for discussing the Chaim Ramon quote, not attacking User: Volksgeist

So the issue at hand:

Pro:the quote was made by an official during an official meeting and is notable and verifiable

Con:the quote does not represent official Israeli policy and therefore cannot/should not be included.

We need to come to a consensus on the above and stop the petty bickering/namecalling. Sarastro777 19:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you intend to say that Volksgeist neads to quit throwing around complot theories about Jews on Misplaced Pages, claiming that countries that let Jews in made a mistake, and that Jews ruined Spain? --Daniel575 | (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, on topic. The quote can be included if it is accompanied by a clarification that the rest of the cabinet does not agree, and that this is not and has never been the official government policy. In which case I do not see why it should be included in any case. As I said before, if this quote should be included, some nice Hezbollah quotes should also be included. They are as irrelevant as this one. --Daniel575 | (talk) 19:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Your guideline presumes that readers are going to assume a quotation from one minister represents official policy. I don't see this as being the case, or something that is assumed in other articles. The Hezbollah stuff belongs in a different discussion that is not about Chaim Ramon. 64.186.246.122 20:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is not about Ramon either. It is equally irrelevant. Add the Ramon quote and I will add Hezbollah quotes about all Israeli citizens having to die etc. Or don't add it and I won't add anything either. I would prefer the latter. --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well clearly notable items related to Israel belong in the article about Israel. Obviously Ramon being a Gov't Official in an official meeting meets this criteria. So is your viewpoint really that you think it is irrelevant, or it is just not notable enough to include? Please stop the quid pro quo threats. I am not interested in discussing irrelevant (to Chaim Ramon), Hezbollah quotations with you in this thread. Sarastro777 20:16, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Neither am I interested in this whole thing. We leave the quote out and we present the official stance held by both (well, all) sides in the conflict. No problems then. We are not going to include extreme statements by leaders on both sides which are not official policy. Problem solved, right? --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

If Israel's justice minister does not constitute an offical stance, then why is their a quote from "Hezbollah's envoy to Iran" on there? Certainly it looks like there is an Israel policy to virtually destroy Southern Lebanon as there is of Hezbollah to make life unpleasent in Northern Israel.Volksgeist 20:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Argh, do I really need to explain this?? The TASK of an envoy is to convey the POSITION OF HIS MASTERS. That is the whole purpose of an ENVOY. So yes, if Hezbollah's ENVOY says such a thing it is RELEVANT. Just like that if Israel's ambassador to the US says something it is RELEVANT. Because his words ARE assumed to be Israel's official government policy. I cannot believe that I am actually explaining this. Please go learn basic international relations and politics and come back afterwards. --Daniel575 | (talk) 21:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. I commend you for your patience. Jayjg 21:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's use your logic. "You can't include quotes by Hezbollah because they don't represent the official policy of Israel." The argument you are making for deleting the quote is that only official policy of Israel can be included, but yet you admit to breaking that guideline by having other quotes. Obviously what you really believe through your actions and what is substantiated by policy, is a requirement for notability and verifiability. Both of these requirements are meant by the Chaim Ramon quote. Not liking the contents does not entitle you to suppress the POV of a major official. Sarastro777 20:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

No, you idiot, I never wrote that. Grow a brain. You are really acting like your brain is in your behind. And I am not going to apologize for this. You are completely twisting my words around and lying about what I said. I said that we should either include no statements by Israel or Hezbollah officials which are not official policy, or we include them both by Israeli and Hezbollah officials. Not only Israeli remarks and no Hezbollah remarks. You, apparently, fail to understand what I am saying here after I explained it at least five times. Grow a brain. --Daniel575 | (talk) 21:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Haim Ramon to quit over sexual misconduct charges: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5262884.stm Volksgeist 14:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, so what? This article isn't about the news. --Daniel575 | (talk) 21:12, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The Ramon quote does not belong in this article, since this article is about Israel, and not about Ramon (however it might be a good idea to put the quote in the article about Ramon, if there is one). Similarly, the article does not need to be flooded with quotes by Nasrallah about Israel and Judaism. Those quotes belong in Hizballah (where they do indeed appear) and/or Hassan Nasrallah where *checks* they also appear. Anyway, the only quotes that would be relevant here would be by military policy makers such as Olmert, Peretz and Halutz. Other quotes may be of note, but only in relation to the individual making them. - LeaHazel 14:00, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel's Military

How does Israel's Air force and Army compare with Canada's? Which one is better, which one is better funded? Israel does not have a Navy right? Jamesino 18:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel has a navy, that's what was blockading the ports of Lebanon. Jayjg 18:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Israeli navy is not a separate part of the military, I believe. You have only the IDF - Israel Defense Forces - and the IAF - Israel Air Force. The navy is part of the Army, formally. I believe it is the same way in China. Don't take this to court, I'm not sure of it. --Daniel575 18:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no. There are three seperate arms of the Israeli military - army, air force and navy. The IAF is an integral part of the IDF (the whole military). okedem 21:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying! --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

How does Isreal's overall military power compare with Canada's? Jamesino 21:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't, because while Israel has and is allowed to have nukes, Canada has no nukes. What's the point having a weapon that you can't use? "you can use nukes" lol use it and see what happens. This is 2006 86.138.21.180 21:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Why are you discussing Canadian military? Its totally irrelevant to this topic. What you should be discussing is why the US will "allow" Israel to have nuclear war heads and are so against the Iran even developing nuclear energy.

Hi Jamesino...there is no comparison between the Israeli and Canadian militaries. Israel's battle-hardened armed forces are among the best trained and best supplied in the world. Canada's military, by contrast, lacks the strength and combat capability of many nations with less than 10% of its wealth and resources. Even without the nuclear issue, Israel is still militarily worlds ahead of Canada. Factor in Israel's nuclear weapons capabilities and the comparison becomes even more ludircously lopsided. Put another way, Israel's armed forces are certainly among the 10 most formidable in the world. Canada's would likely not be in the top 50 by most standards. Hope this gives you some idea. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the existance of Israel's nukes was never made official by the government, rather, it's just a "ghost weapon", to be used as a deterrant for any WMD usage upon it. To answer the above's question, Israel has never said that an entire country, or race should be killed, Iran has. Iran is run by a religious leader, which is never good news, wheras Israel is a democracy. Israel has never publically and completely persued a goal through ways unbecoming a democractic nation (I'm sure that many people will stand up tall and say "MOST CERTAINLY NOT, DEAR SIR!" but I've been around this country for a few years, and I know that if anyone messed up during a war, he pays for it afterwards, unlike Iran, where he is praised for it. Sendare

Where has the leader of Iran suggested killing an entire 'race' (I thought race didn't exist?) of people? Here's an interesting URL I found, http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm "Does Iran's President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map - Does He Deny The Holocaust?" Volksgeist 20:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

See the article on mahmud: http://en.wikipedia.org/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad and I quote from the article: "According to widely published translations, he agreed with a statement he attributed to Ayatollah Khomeini that the "occupying regime" had to be removed, and referred to Israel as a "disgraceful stain the Islamic world" that would be eliminated." I would say that saying that something "has to be eliminated" rarely means that the people should be whisked away with first class airplane tickets and flown to the french riviera. The person has denounced the existance of the Holocaust, he has called for the destruction of Israel, which is why he supplied Hizbollah with money and weapons, they are an indirect arm of execution for him, meaning that he can damage Israel without being "directly" linked to the damage, just like he can't be literally caught calling for the destruction of Israel. Just because someone doesn't spell anything out doesn't mean that he didn't say it, put 2 and 2 together, it's not hard. Stop being overly objective and neutral, because at situations like these, you don't need all that much personal judgement to see the truth. By the way, I respect the fact that you want to remain neutral, but neutrality tends to be overrated, especially when it comes to words that come from the mouths of politicians. Sendare

Mongoose.....I dont care to compare Canada/Israeli armies....but ake away the $5 billion in arms the US supplies Israel every year and we will see how big there army really is.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.59.106.164 (talk • contribs) 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Last I checked, it was around $3B, of which something like 2-2.5 comes back to the US and supports the US economy, but I could be misremembering. -- Avi 14:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

That's $1.8 billion, and I believe most of it is used on American products. Other than military equipment, many simple things in the IDF is often bought from US firms, such as some office equipment, water coolers, etc. I don't know why items exactly are US-made though. -- Ynhockey 20:37, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

So, Avi, what you want to say is that Israel receives $3B aid from the USA. 2-2.5B happens to be spent on US products. It is still a gift of $3B to Israel and an (inefficient) subsidy of the US economy. Tobi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.112.179 (talk • contribs)

It basically works as a subsidy to American arms manufactuers, the US gives the money to Israel with a provision that Israel spends it on American arms, even if Israel has better domestic ones (which they often do) so you really can't seperate the subsidy without the provisions to how it is being used. Anyways the money is just a fraction of what Israel spends on its military (which comes from normal domestic sources) so even without the subsidy Israel would still have one of the best financed armies in the world. By the way, if you count up all the money that the US gives to potential enemies of Israel (like Egypt and Saudi Arabia) you would find that it dwarfs the amount that Israel gets.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Please remain on topic, that is how to better this article. This is not a discussion forum. Thank you for your consideration. See WP:TALK and WP:NOT. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Is that the only thing you have to contribute to this talk page?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"Israel is allowed to have nukes" not according to the International Atomic Energy Agency, they are outside of the non proliferation treaty, same boat as North Korea, Iran, ect. but no one seems to like to mention that fact. August 23rd JustinMcL

• They're not signatories to the non-proliferation treaty, so they're not bound by it. --jpgordon 03:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"Israel has nukes" comes from foreign sources, most of these unverified. The Israeli government never declared it has nukes.

2006 conflict section

Firstly, it should not be its own sub-section, any more than the Yom Kippur war and the 1982 conflict are their own sections. Secondly, it is inconsistent with the main article. It is suffering from the conflict being so recent. This should be dramatically cut down, following the pattern of all of the other conflicts. We have a main article for a reason. -- Avi 15:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's logical, since Misplaced Pages didn't exist in 1973 and 1982. I think this phenomenon is unavoidable. --Daniel575 | (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I understand why it happened, but I believe we should restore the symmetry and balance. Summary-style and all. -- Avi 15:05, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I was pleased to find this sub-section exactly as it is, and it felt very natural balanced to me. I came to the Israel page looking to learn about the history of Isreal, and specifically how that history relates to the current conflict. I suspect the vast majority of visitors to this page will be interested in similar information. The current layout gave me exactly what I was seeking, and the fact that the current conflict is highlighted in its own section seems perfectly reasonable in light of its current importance to readers. No doubt, in another 5 or 10 years, this conflict will be no more important than other conflicts of other decades, and the section can be rebalanced at that time to account for the changing perspective. Drwr 00:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

That is why we have wikilinks. Clicking on the blue/purple 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict is just as good, and does not disrupt the flow of the text. -- Avi 03:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel

Israel, why have you violated the cease fire five days after it started? I know some israeli is gonna come and delete this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.234.154 (talk • contribs) 15:36, August 19, 2006 (UTC)

^ ! !

Are you under the impression that the Israeli consulate reads Misplaced Pages talk sections?

• What suggestions do you have for improving the article? --jpgordon 15:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said previously, we should have pro Israeli view and pro Arab view. Even though they are both points of view, they would neutralize each other due to both being included. ≈MrBobla 17:43, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

No, actually, we should have facts. Also, it's a bit ignorant to say "pro-Israeli and pro-Arab" as though the two are in conflict. Arabs enjoy more rights and a better standard of living in Israel than they do in any of its neighbours. Schrodingers Mongoose 01:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

According to U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan Israel's raid violated the U.N ceasefire agreement. Volksgeist 02:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• And you put it in the article, thank you. Why are you pointing it out here also? It's certainly an uncontroversial addition. --jpgordon 03:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That belongs in the main 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict article, not here. -- Avi 03:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I find the person who keeps changing that Israel violated the ceasefire to "violations have occurred" a bit misleading. It's been all over the news the violations have been on the Israeli side, it's a bit ridiculous to say "although violations have occurred," I would appreciate if you stop changing it. I know you're from Israel but lets be real here, even the UN is upset about this one. Volksgeist 21:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, but as has been pointed out, your Jew-hating comments have made every edit you do here suspect. Perhaps you shouldn't have outed yourself so thoroughly. --jpgordon 21:56, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

That does not mean Israel's cease-fire violations have not occurred and does not mean that my edits are not truthful. How am I any more biased then someone with 9 different wikipedia Judaism stars and resides in Israel? The bias in the same. To say "although cease-fire violations have occurred" is ridiculous and I saw this coming when Israel's violations occurred. The Jews and Israelis here will not allow anything that puts them in a negative light. It's quite obvious there is also a disproportional amount of administrators with the above. Volksgeist 22:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There have been Israeli violations, and there have been Hezbollah violations. to mention only the Israeli ones is POV. Isarig 22:51, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to have heard any in the news or I would of added them. Even Annan's statement only talked about Israel's raid and the airstrikes, where are the ones about Hizbollah? Volksgeist 23:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't read much, do you? Or rather, you are quite selective in what you read. Here you go, boy:

Isarig 23:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hrm... (aug15th) "UP to a dozen rockets have been fired at Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon, the army has said, in what Israel has called a violation of the hours-old ceasefire in the area." Rockets in Southern Lebanon? Is that part of Greater Israel yet? Why did the UN not issue a statement about it being a violation? They were pretty quick when Israel invaded Lebanon again in a raid and then issued air strikes. Way to go Israel, bombing a nation back into oblivion. It's quite obvious in this whole incident that Israel has escalated it far out of control and continues todo so. This megaphone software must be working great...The userpage of most of the administrators here usually spells most of it out. Volksgeist 10:07, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion forum. If you want to argue over Israel's actions, go find an appropriate political forum, or open a blog. This isn't the place. okedem 11:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me but I was responding the sponsors who keep changing Israel's blatant ceasefire violations to "although ceasefire violations have occurred." It's quite obvious they don't want the fact that Israel has violated them in the main article and I doubt you're no exception hailing from Tel Aviv. Nothing on Judaism or Israel on Misplaced Pages is unbiased because of the overwhelmingly disproportional amounts of administrators. Volksgeist 13:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse you me... Are you asserting that there is an "overwhelmingly disproportional amounts of administrators" that are Jewish? Even if that was the case, in Misplaced Pages we do not discuss an editor's religion, political views, or otherwise. See WP:NPA that reads in reference to personal attacks that: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme" is a personal attack, and not allowed in this project. Comment on the edits, and not on the editor. OK? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe an editor from Israel is going to post unbiased accounts of the Israel-Lebanese conflict and the edits in this forum have backed this up. Furthermore, there is a disproportionate amount of Jewish administrators on Misplaced Pages and I think there is a reason many consider Misplaced Pages to be biased with certain subjects, namely Israel. Volksgeist 04:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)1

You just keep burying yourself deeper. --jpgordon 04:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You're confusing Misplaced Pages with a newspaper. Misplaced Pages reports what other reputable sources have reported, not original accounts. Thus, the nationality of the editors doesn't matter. And I remind you of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks - editors' nationality or religion is NOT an legitimate issue here. okedem 06:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You do not understand what a "ceasefire" means (or rather, you understand very well, but pretend to be obtuse so as to bash Israel). A "Ceasefire" means you stop shooting. when a ceasefire is reached while one side is occupying part of the other side's land, and shooting by that other side, even if it is wholly within its land, is a vioaltion of the ceasefire. It's actually a good question to ask why the UN did not issue a statement regarding this vioalation. It speaks volumes about the UN's lack of objectivity. Isarig 15:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

That is not for us to say, however. Surely the UN is the appropriate judge on whether its own resolution is being abided by, no? john k 16:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure, and we can say "Kofi Anan said..."; that's not the same as "The UN said", I don't think, since neither the Security Council nor the General Assembly has made such a determination. --jpgordon 16:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Foreign relations pages

Please see Israel-Venezuela relations and Israel-New Zealand relations. They could both use the perspectives of Israelis. There appears to be a revived movement to merge the Israel-Ven relations page into Foreign relations of Venezuela so I urge other users to vote against this. Respectfully, Republitarian 19:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"Israel" -> "State of Israel"_"State_of_Israel"-2006-08-21T02:28:00.000Z">

How about moving the title of the article to State of Israel....to be, you know, precise? Paul 02:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)_"State_of_Israel""> _"State_of_Israel"">

State_of_Israel already redirects here. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense, actually. Bibically, "Israel" refers to the Jewish people, not to the country. Sneech2 02:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)_"State_of_Israel""> _"State_of_Israel"">

See the Coat of Arms of Israel. It has one word: Israel. Are we now renaming all the country articles to whatever is their official name? If so, why start with Israel? For Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, we have article Jordan, for Arab Republic of Egypt - Egypt, for Syrian Arab Republic - Syria, for Italian Republic - Italy. Shall we continue? ←Humus sapiens 03:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no need to move the article. Most people will look for Israel, and those looking for State of Israel will find it as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that, as Sneech says, "Israel" has a major meaning entirely independent of the State of Israel is worth considering, and makes the case different from those of the other states mentioned. That being said, I think that ultimately most people looking up "Israel" will be looking for the state, and moving the article is unnecessary. A disambiguation notice at the top, which is already present, seems sufficient. john k 23:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)_"State_of_Israel""> _"State_of_Israel"">

Agree. Schrodingers Mongoose 03:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Thirded. -- Avi 15:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Detail of 2006 conflict in this article

This article is supposed to be about the State of Israel. There should be short entries about each war, with wikilinks to the specific articles. This is not the place to start copying every detail from the 2006 conflict article, that is why we have it, and its myriad daughter articles. -- Avi 14:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. In the last few months, there are incessant attempts to turn WP into a blog which it is not. ←Humus sapiens 23:02, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Over-swift reverts by ==

I am concerned that some of my edits are being reverted by pro-Israeli forces within 1 minute of them being written and I am being accused of undue POV. I suggest that due consideration has not been given.

I was attempting to provide balance about the Lebanon-Israel war. Ar present it appears that the only casulaties have been Israelis (mentioned 4 times I think: my attempt to mention Lebanese casualties was immediately deleted. Johnbibby 18:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

The article Lebanon does not have an extensive section on Israeli casualties, why should this article have one about Lebanese? But if you ask my opinion, the 2006 conflict should take up only a few lines in this article, not several paragraphs like it does now. -- Ynhockey 19:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I haven't been working on Lebanon so I can't really comment. I suggest that 'both articles should show balance - it's not that each one is meant to balance the other article! (However, maybe the whoel lot should be in the Israel-Lebanon conflict 2006 article.

(But my main comment was that my revisions had been removed without due consideration.) Johnbibby 20:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

What about revisions ADDED without due consideration?

Dear Anon. (please sign in future -thanks!) Oh I agree - there are lots of those! Johnbibby 16:55, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

State of Israel

This should be redirected to the State of Israel with Israel being a disambiguation page with links to other articles.סרגון יוחנא 17:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No it should not. Pls. see above #"Israel" -> "State of Israel". ←Humus sapiens 21:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

lutherians

is in israel a lutherian church? simon mayer.

Needs a major clean up

This talk page is 90% bickering. It's about time that most of this was wiped clean. It's difficult to see any reasons for edits among all the PoV comments. If you want a chat room go meet in one but try to use this page for discussing the content of this entry rather than your own agendas. Candy 17:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

1. "Israel and the Occupied Territories". AI Report 2005. Released by Amnesty International. 2006. Retrieved August 24, 2006.

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