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June 15

English places with Welsh names

The other day I came across the village of Llanyblodwel, which, despite its name, is a village in Shropshire, England. Are there many other places in England with obviously Welsh names? If so, are they generally along the Welsh border, like Llanyblodwel, or are there any that are more distant? 115.166.16.149 (talk) 08:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

A quick look at any road atlas will show a string of Welsh place names on the English side of the border, along most of its length. The largest concentration is in the middle, in Shropshire and Herefordshire - these being the areas where English penetration in the Middle Ages was much slower, and the border remained undefined for a much longer period. Further east it is much more difficult to find obviously Welsh names, though there are some very well known historic towns with names which probably have an ancient Celtic origin, dating back to the period before the Roman invasion. You have to recall that the Welsh are descended from the Celtic Britons, who occupied the whole of the country before the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Lincoln is a good example - it probably derives from a Celtic word for a pool, lindon, related distantly to the modern Welsh llyn. The Romans latinized it to Lindum Colonia - which then evolved to become Lincoln. Wymspen (talk) 08:58, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

We have an article - Welsh place names in other countries. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:58, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

... and another which may be closer to answering the question - Celtic toponymy#Brythonic. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:28, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Ghmyrtle, I found the article Welsh toponymy before but I didn't find the "place names in other countries" one. It's funny, I never realised that "Aber-" was Welsh as well as Scottish. 115.166.16.149 (talk) 14:02, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I found Place-Names of Shropshire - Shropshire's Welsh Names from the University of Wales that lists Bettws-y-Crwyn, Llanvair Waterdine, Llanymynech, Trefarclawdd and Argoed as examples.

Further afield, there are a few Welsh-sounding names, but they tend to have their roots in the Common Brittonic that was spoken all over (what is now) England before the arrival of those rude Angles and Saxons, as Wymspen says above. One of the best known is Pen-y-ghent, a hill in the Yorkshire Dales, which comes from the Cumbric language, although the "Pen-y" prefix (meaning "head of") is also found all over Wales (Pen-y-darren, Pen-y-clawdd, Pen y Fan and so on). The Cornish language, which has some mutual intelligibility with Welsh, also throws up a few rather Welsh-sounding names like Penryn (compare with Penrhyn in Gwynedd). Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

My favourite Anglo-Welsh place name is Knockin in Shropshire, thought to be derived from the Welsh Cnycyn; if you drive through the village, you can see the famous Knockin Shop (if you don't get the joke, see this). Alansplodge (talk) 18:02, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

"If this house is Knockin', don't come rockin'." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:24, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

• There is the Welsh tract in Pennsylvania, where there are tons of neighborhoods and street names based on Welsh names. Sir Joseph 17:34, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

June 17

Spanish naming

Would it be appropriate to add Jorge Villalpando Romo to the hatnote in Jorge Romo? Clarityfiend (talk) 23:58, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Because why? --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:59, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Because the Spanish have two surnames (the name hogs). Clarityfiend (talk) 00:50, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Related question: Should Villalpando be listed in Romo (surname)? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:04, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Not that this proves anything, but I don't see Roberto Clemente in Walker (surname). ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:01, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

It’s not really two surnames. The main family name (the patronymic) is the real surname (in this case, Villalpando), and the second one (the matronymic) is more on the order of an English middle name. Jorge Villalpando Romo belongs with other Villalpandos, but not with other Romos. Of course, there may be one or more true middle names, often taken from one's Feast day. —Stephen (talk) 13:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Roberto Clemente's Hall of Fame plaque originally said "Roberto Walker Clemente", using the American style of putting the father's name last. It was eventually changed to put the Walker last. A Spanish-speaking colleague of mine once said that anyone with only one surname might be assumed to not know who his father is. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

That's what I was looking for. Thanks, Steven G. Robby Walker: Puerto Rican icon. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:20, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Across the Guadiana it's different. A married lady Maria Almeida dos Santos was born an Almeida and married a dos Santos. Of course, there are other naming differences - a young unmarried woman is still Senhora rather than Senhorinha, for example - but does anyone know how and why this particular difference arose? 109.146.238.101 (talk) 23:30, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

June 18

Purpose of the royal "we" and others.

As I understand it the royal "we" is used to emphasise the identity of sovereign and state - akin to Louis XIV's supposed claim "L'Etat, c'est moi". The nurse's "we" as in "How are we feeling today?" is meant to indicate empathy. However, I'm struggling to clearly define the function of the teacher's "we" - "Then we carefully pour in the acid" which is also used in academic articles and textbooks. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:05, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Is the teacher demonstrating how to do it, with the assumption that the students will then do the same experiment? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 08:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

During an actual demonstration or lecture it makes sense as an instruction or command, but I don't see a good reason why it is also used like that in descriptive articles or textbooks - "we observed that male penguins are very agressive during breeding season" even though the writer is the only actual observer. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Do any of the broadly accepted academic style manuals address this matter? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:21, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Original research here—when I was in grade school in the US in the 1960s, we were taught that using "I" in written work makes the author seem too focused on himself, too conceited. I've always assumed that the journal style "We observed the penguins..." (even with just a single author) is an extension of that odd notion. Note that some journals follow that rule and others do not. Loraof (talk) 14:41, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Others will refer to themselves in an oblique way, such as "this reporter". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:07, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

I was taught (currently at a South African university) to use the third person: "the researcher found that..." Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:11, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

That's the convention used in Misplaced Pages user boxes: "This user is a wabbit" or whatever. I find that style stilted and annoying. "We" might be a bit pretentious too, but at least it's shorter than "this writer". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:15, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Would be great if someone could cite an academic style guide or two on this topic. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:22, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

BTW are my assumptions about the royal and nurse's "we" correct? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Have you read Royal we? As for the "nurse's we", Alan King was once in the hospital with an illness. The nurse came in and asked, "How are we doing?" Alan said to himself, "We? I thought I was the only one who was sick. Suddenly there's an epidemic!" ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

And the article Royal we links to the article Nosism on the more general usage of singular "we" to mean "I". I would note that the second person "we" is also used by waiters ("Are we ready to order?) and the singular "we" is used by by politicians admitting a mistake. Loraof (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

English plural personal pronouns also have an indefinite quality. Nurses and doctors say 'we' so as to not get an automatic and unhelpful response to the social 'how are you'. Peter Grey (talk) 01:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Kakuro

Pronunciation please. My first guess is: ca(as in cat) - coo(as in cool) - ro (as in robot). I have never heard the game pronounced. --Preceding unsigned comment 21:19, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

(UK) /ˌkɑːˈkʊərəʊ/; (US) /kɑˈkʊroʊ/ —Stephen (talk) 22:48, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

So, if you don't know IPA, your guesses are correct except that the first syllable is kah (as in calm). The stress is on the second syllable. Deor (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Many thanks. --Preceding unsigned comment 23:51, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

June 19

Iwan Rheon

How is Iwan Rheon's last name pronounced? Dismas| 01:39, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Like this. --Preceding unsigned comment 02:38, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Was... that... a D that I heard at the beginning of Rheon? Dismas| 02:53, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

It sounded to me like a trilled R, which is very close to a D sound. Hence the joke about calling a given situation "veddy English". ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 09:00, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I see. Thanks. Dismas| 12:49, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

BTW, Bugs, if you ever go to Wales, don't confuse England with Wales unless you like hospital food ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 19:04, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

That was strictly an illustration. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:19, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

The last hospital I was in had a gourmet menu and free wifi, so I could work. They even had a little smoking area, and a shop for newspapers and drinks. Quite a happy time, to be honest, considering I was dying. KägeTorä - (_虎) (もしもし！) 19:27, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I hope this means you are no longer dying. :) As to the hospital, providing a smoking room sounds like a subtle plan to generate new business. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:19, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Bacule?

We have an extremely thin stub article called Bacule which is apparently a type of portcullis, although the description is very brief and not entirely clear. I can't find a single reference in English which supports this; can anybody else do better? Is it perhaps a typo for Bascule? Alansplodge (talk) 22:34, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

I think yes, just from the whole counterpoise thing ... but if so, the mistake is in the source. Nothing found at the OED. But Wiktionary and others seem to think it's a thing and give a backstory pointing at a Latin origin. Odd. --Tagishsimon (talk) 22:56, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

In the Useful English Dictionary "bacule" is defined as a variant of "bascule". — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:32, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

I think bacule comes from French bacule, from Old French bacul, from Old French battre + cul, from Latin battuō (beat) + cul (bottom). Cognate with bascule. —Stephen (talk) 01:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

A number of words in French that now have an acute or circumflex accent were previously written with an S after the vowel instead. I wonder if someone tried to turn French bascule into bâcule and this might have become English "bacule" while the original spelling remained in French as well and became English "bascule". This is pure conjecture, though. --69.159.60.83 (talk) 06:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

See the etymological section of the word bascule in CNRTL. It explains how, in French, bacule got two "s" and later lost one of these two to became bascule. In this French book the word bacule is used in the running text whereas bascule (with a long "s") is used in the section title (page 76). — AldoSyrt (talk) 09:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Great work on the etymology everyone; has anybody found out what it actually is? I was thinking that it might merit a subsection in "Portcullis" rather than its own article which doesn't have much to say... 09:57, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

It actually belongs in Drawbridge rather than portcullis. In fact, that article already talks about the bascule as one type of drawbridge. Wymspen (talk) 12:19, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

So is it a the type of drawbridge lifted by two counterpoised beams like this one? Alansplodge (talk) 17:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

If anybody has found any further information, please go to WikiProject Military history ~ Bacule?. Thanks for the input so far. Alansplodge (talk) 12:54, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't merge with Drawbridge just yet. Drawbridge already has a link to Bascule bridge. It appears to be a door or gate rather than a causeway . 86.168.123.89 (talk) 14:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

However, straight after that link, the drawbridge article says: "...but this article concerns the narrower, more historical definition of the term." If a bacule IS a drawbridge used in early modern fortifications, then it belongs in the "drawbridge" article. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any reference that describes what it actually is, apart from the 1728 reference in the article. So I need to know two things:

1) What exactly is a bacule in terms of English language fortification terminology and

2) Does the term have any real currency in English after 1728, making it worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that we were not allowed to cover obsolete fortifications because we have no current word to describe them. The last link posted yesterday is to a French/English dictionary, rather than a Misplaced Pages article. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 13:19, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Apologies if we're talking at cross-purposes. We have many articles on rather obscure fortification terms, such as terreplein, chemin de ronde and faussebraye, but all of these can be referenced to modern works on fortification. Search as I might, I can't find "bacule" in any modern work on the internet or in the several books in my own collection. Thus my thought was, if we say "this type of drawbridge is called a bacule" when nobody ever calls it "a bacule",. it would not be right. Whatever it's called in the French language is irrelevant to the English Misplaced Pages if the French word isn't used by anybody in English. Alansplodge (talk) 16:58, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

I think the reason why there is no record of a drawbridge being called a "bacule" is because that is not the name of it. We have two sources which say a bacule is a door or gate which is elevated above the roadway and then dropped on the unsuspecting enemy forces as they pass beneath, much as the bank thief finds himself impaled on the security shutter which jumps up from the counter when he attempts to cross. 86.177.172.210 (talk) 00:29, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Could you post a link to those sources please? Alansplodge (talk) 11:45, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

AldoSyrt's reference appears to start out by describing a portcullis:

... disposees en forme de Treillis: son usage est de supleer au defaut de la Porte estant petardee ou rompue; la Herse est attache par une corde a un Moulinet, qui est au dessus de la Porte, & la Herse, s'abbaiseou tombe par deux Coulisses, qui sont entaillees dans les deux costez de la Porte ...

Next comes the bacule, which is indeed a lifting bridge of the bascule variety. Tagishsimon's link describes "bacule" as

... a Kind of Portcullis or Gate, made like a Pit-fall with a Counter-Poise, and supported by two great Stakes: It is usually made before the Corps-de-Garde advancing near the Gates.

86.168's link is:

A square, and beauie dore (commonly) hanging, and held up by chaynes, a pretie distance without the maine gate of a fortresse, and let fal (as a Portcullis) in a trice, with a whurrie, and to the confusion of them it reaches, or lights on; also, as Bascule.

So the difference appears to be that the portcullis is of latticework design and an integral part of the building, while the bacule guards the approach. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 16:34, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

June 20

the meaning of "mean"

I wonder what "mean" means in the following context. "Expanses unknown to deed or map are known to every dawn, and solitude, supposed no longer to exist in my county, extends on every hand as far as the dew can reach...A tractor roars warning that my neighbor is astir. The world has shrunk to those mean dimensions known to county clerks.We turn toward home, and breakfast." (Excerpt from Aldo Leopold's "A Sand County Almanac") Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.173.24 (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Small. limited, restricted, inferior, poor, meagre Wymspen (talk) 13:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

You may find the various origins of "mean" interesting. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:02, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

"Some people mean to be mean when implying that target's intelligence is below the mean". StuRat (talk) 15:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

I would tend to interpret it in the mathematical sense (but I may be wrong; "it looks like a nail to me"). --107.15.152.93 (talk) 17:24, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

More like "Mr. Blacker, looking round the rather mean apartment with a little alarm..." (Charles Dickens, All Year Round, 1867). Alansplodge (talk) 21:05, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Vietnamese wartime spelling reform

I remember reading that Hoàng Xuân Hãn, during the Japanese occupation of Vietnam, proposed a spelling reform of the Vietnamese language that entirely avoided the tone marks, using instead combinations of letters. I'd like to find more details about this orthographic plan. I refer specifically to changes proposed during the Empire of Vietnam period. Thanks! --2.37.228.109 (talk) 16:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

You may already be familiar with these, but there are several references at the end of the section Vietnamese alphabet#History—references 7, 8, and 9; one of them may deal with this. Loraof (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

"Were" vs. "had been"

During the course of deverbosification, I typically change had been to were -- but am wondering about an overlooked nuanced distinction. Comments? --107.15.152.93 (talk) 17:36, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

"Had been" and "were" are certainly not interchangeable in general. Can you give an example sentence? --Trovatore (talk) 18:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm not the OP, but you could switch "We had been planning a trip to Paris" with "We were planning a trip to Paris" with little change of meaning. Matt Deres (talk) 18:54, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

The former implies that the planning was limited to a time before the main action, whereas in the second, it is contemporary with the main action. --Trovatore (talk) 18:57, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

The specificity of using "were" (instead of "was") in the query made me think that the OP might be considering counterfactual sentences, if I were... versus if I had been. In this case, they are essentially never interchangeable. "If I were" is for counterfactuals in present time; "if I had been" is for counterfactuals in past time. If I were a lion (now), I would be looking for my mate to bring me some fresh antelope, but if I had been a lion (at the time of some historic atrocity), I would have jumped into the fray and torn the evildoer to pieces. Does that help? --Trovatore (talk) 19:13, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

OP, please do not change 'had been' to 'were' unless you know what you're doing. There is an important distinction. 'Were' is used for the simple past tense when the speaker or writer is reflecting on a historic event from the perspective of his current time. When the setting is already in the past, one uses 'had been' to refer to an even earlier time. Thus, when the speaker or writer is in the present:

"John and Emily were late for work on Tuesday 12 March 2004 due to illness."

"John told me in 2006 that he and Emily had been late for work on Tuesday 12 March 2004 due to illness." The 'had been' here refers to an even earlier time than 2006. Akld guy (talk) 19:48, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

"Emily were late for work on Tuesday" would be acceptable in the West Country dialect, but probably not elsewhere. Alansplodge (talk) 21:16, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Maybe on the Joizee shore? --107.15.152.93 (talk) 01:20, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Example:   He concluded that sugar gliders had been brought to Launceston as pets...  --107.15.152.93 (talk) 21:35, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see. In that case, the point of had been is that the animals were brought to Launceston prior to his drawing that conclusion. "Were" is not wrong, but "had been" is more precise. Whether the extra precision is worth the slightly stilted sound is a matter of taste. --Trovatore (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Okay; thank you (and others) for clarifying. In this case, "had been" is the better choice.  --107.15.152.93 (talk) 21:50, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

See also sequence of tenses. --Trovatore (talk) 23:42, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

"Were" should be considered wrong because it immediately plants in the reader's or hearer's mind that the context is the later time (2006, when John spoke in the example I gave) and then the mind struggles to make sense of the earlier time reference (2004) that he spoke about. Akld guy (talk) 23:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Right; and with my example (from here), had been brought -occurred prior to- He concluded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.15.152.93 (talk) 01:13, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Or prior to an observation of sugar gliders in Launceston. —Tamfang (talk) 03:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

June 21

Translation of name at Joe Karam

I'm not happy that this recent edit doesn't cite whether Karam (a)regards himself as an Arab (b)uses an Arabic translation of his name in day to day life. As far as I know, he has never made any big deal about his Lebanese origin. Is the translation accurate? I would have more justification in reverting the edit if, for example the Arabic phrase was offensive. Akld guy (talk) 20:21, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

The translation appears accurate, but some names such as Joseph can be translated in different ways. I have no idea about whether he uses the Arabic form. —Stephen (talk) 23:13, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Another editor has in the meantime removed the Arabic with edit summary "rm Arabic, no demonstrated relevance", so I intend to leave it at that.

Resolved. Akld guy (talk) 23:22, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

June 22

Adjective "organ"

Is there an adjective "organ" that is related to the verb "organize" and the noun "organization" like other "-ize"/"-ization" words? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 05:09, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Not according to Merriam-Webster, one of the more comprehensive and well regarded dictionaries of American English (somewhat analogous to the OED for British English). Under Merriam-Webster, only three noun definitions are commonly recognized. Since the full online OED requires paid membership, I'll let someone who has one look it up there. --Jayron32 05:16, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

No adjective "organ" in the OED Online either.

The usual adjective corresponding to "organization" would be "organizational", although "organic" has some limited uses also, such as in the phrase organic law. --69.159.9.187 (talk) 07:18, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

What part of speech is 'organ' in contexts like Organ concerto and Organ Symphony? -- Jack of Oz 12:57, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Our article is at Noun adjunct, Jack, though terminology like "attributive noun" is also used. Deor (talk) 14:10, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Ah yes. Thanks, Deor. -- Jack of Oz 22:58, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

What of Organ Morgan, of Under Milk Wood fame. Noun phrase or adjectival use of organ? --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Computer Language Dictionary & Thesaurus sought

Something that provides alternative words of whatever I insert in the software/app. -- Apostle (talk) 11:19, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

You're going to need to supply more details than this. What software? What app? What is your program written in? How detailed do the definitions need to be? Is there a reason why you can't Google it yourself? And so on. Matt Deres (talk) 16:10, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

• User:Russell.mo, is accessing google illegal where you live? μηδείς (talk) 01:16, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes Medis, you won't understand. I'll still tell you: It takes a lot of kbs if I go through all the links. - I'm on pay bite as you go. -- Apostle (talk) 10:49, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

And yet you can load and reload the RefDesk to ask dozens of questions without using up those bytes? A curious system. As an aside, I'd suggest an ad-blocker such as NoScript to reduce the size of loaded pages by halting the loading of animated advertisements and so on. Matt Deres (talk) 13:48, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Medeis, is it acceptable to be rude and churlish for no reason where you live? You are free to ignore these questions if you don't like them. You're not helping, you're just getting in our way. The funny thing is you could be helpful if you wanted to, I know you could. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:29, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

My internet is for study purposes only, and this is the only place I learn via communication, that's why I use my bytes here first, and I got use to it... I get 1GB pay bite as you go every month, therefore "WP" and "Adult Videos" are the only two things I could possibly use my internet for...still I do some rubbish to have fun, sometimes with you guys... I'm guessing you won't understand until I lie my way out here, or create more than a dozen account in order to camouflage myself. Beside, you are more than welcome to give others an opportunity to assist me (who like doing the internet searches) rather than creating an issue about it in order to make me look bad with your comments...

Anyway, I'll add you with Medis. -- Apostle (talk) 03:56, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

I never studied Greek, but I know enough to know that the user's name is User:Medeis and not as written above. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 10:36, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

I know a bit of Greek, but I also don't bother spelling user names correctly when said user has been rude and unhelpful to me. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:29, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Are you just looking for any thesaurus application? Our article lists a few free/open ones. Wiktionary works as a thesaurus, and there are many freely available apps for smartphones too . SemanticMantis (talk) 18:29, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

fabric

I am not so sure about the meaning of "fabric" in the following context: "More often we see only the interweaving darkened lines that lazy hoofs have traced on the silken fabric of the dew." Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.215.130 (talk) 13:53, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

It is a metaphor; the author is comparing bedewed ground/meadow/pathway to a "silken fabric". --LarryMac | Talk 14:06, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

He could be thinking of the way dew clings to spiders' webs in the grass. Wymspen (talk) 15:31, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Bear of little brain

ESL Question: In the article on the Kim dynasty it is stated on Kim Jong-Un that he “… reportedly bore a daughter, Kim Ju-ae, in 2012”. The Wiktionary article gives the definition of the verb bear at 7 as “(transitive) To give birth to someone or something (may take the father of the direct object as an indirect object)”. Is it acceptable in (US or UK) English to use this construct, i.e. “X (the father) bore a daughter / son” ? Of course, Kim Jong-Un may have many superhuman characteristics which invalidate general linguistic usage and semantics. Thank you. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

No, it is not correct in normal usage. You could say he "fathered" a daughter, or more poetically - which might be relevant for myth-making dynasties - he "sired" her. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 18:55, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Maybe something got lost in translation. You could say that Kim begat a child. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:16, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Hmm... "begat" is a rather archaic in my opinion, rather King James Bible. I'd go with "fathered". Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I've never seen bear/bore used in connection directly with the father. It always refers to the mother, who 'carries' the baby with the result that she gives birth to it. The Wiktionary article (sense 7) says, "(may take the father of the direct object as an indirect object)", which is somewhat misleading but is illustrated in the example quoted: "In Troy she becomes Paris’ wife, bearing him several children ..." Akld guy (talk) 22:48, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Was delivered of a son/daughter" is the only proper corresponding term. To sire or father refers to the conception, or to the act in the very abstract, not to when the mother delivers. μηδείς (talk) 01:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Maybe he bored a daughter. On the other hand, if his father could shoot 34 (in golf, not with a firearm), anything is possible. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:15, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Provided you make it clear that it is the mother who was delivered (hence "delivery room"). The medical term is "parturition". 80.44.160.251 (talk) 13:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

That is inherently clear, I believe, given the well-documented significant differences between women and men. -- Jack of Oz 20:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

June 23

the meaning of 'Joint Head of School'

Would you please tell me the meaning of 'Joint Head of School'in the next sentence?

  But there was nothing I could do about it, and so at the end of August 1943
  I entered the third-year sixth and became Joint Head of School.--
  Margaret Thstcher, The Path to Power, p.34123.221.73.147 (talk) 02:58, 23 June 2016 (UTC)dengen

She was one of two or more head girls. Rojomoke (talk) 03:04, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm sure it's not usual to have two Head Girls. Far more likely that there was a Head Boy and a Head Girl, but which one Thatcher was, I don't know. Akld guy (talk) 06:14, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Akld guy, she was at Kesteven and Grantham Girls' School. There were no boys. Rojomoke (talk) 06:41, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

You're right. The article Margaret Thatcher says she became 'head girl', which makes her 'Joint Head' statement in the book a puzzle. Kesteven and Grantham Girls' School is located very close to the boys' school, King's School, Grantham, and today they have shared classes. Is it possible that the two schools had a close relationship even back in 1943, and this is what Thatcher meant when she said she was Joint Head (with the Head Boy from King's)? Akld guy (talk) 07:03, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Unlikely, IMHO. The tendency in those days would have been to keep the two bodies of pupils apart as much as possible (so as to keep... bodies apart as much as possible). More likely that the headmistress appointed two girls to share responsibility, for some reason. Rojomoke (talk) 07:53, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

What's a "third-year sixth"? -- Jack of Oz 08:29, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

An extra year of sixth form, for candidates taking Oxford or Cambridge entrance exams (see the linked article). In short, the final year before university, specifically to prepare for the entrance examinations of the top-tier universities MChesterMC (talk) 08:34, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Also used to accommodate students who were unable to complete (for various reasons) their required studies during the usual two years of sixth form, not necessarily for the sole reason of gaining entrance to those universities. Bazza (talk) 10:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

On User:Akld guy's point ("it's not usual to have two Head Girls"), St Paul's School, London has "two Head Boys and two Head Girls". Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

More to the point is whether it was usual to have two in earlier decades and specifically in 1943. And I don't think it was, at least in New Zealand, which had very much the same public school system as in Britain. Akld guy (talk) 13:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

There is one specific case where a celebrity recalled that there were two girls (of which she was one) who were so deserving of being made Head Girl that the principal decided to appoint both of them. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 13:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Be aware that public school may not mean the same to everyone. The school referred to in the original question was a state school. Bazza (talk) 15:32, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

@ MChesterMC: Thanks. I had heard of the Upper and Lower Sixth, but always assumed that meant the class was split into two because of numbers or some such reason. I didn't appreciate that a single form could take 2 years to complete (since none of the earlier forms did). Strange, different, unusual. -- Jack of Oz 20:17, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Even weirder, many schools still have a sixth form, even tough they no longer have a first to fifth forms (we now use "Year 7" instead of first form). Nobody has ever accused us of being logical. Alansplodge (talk) 21:04, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

When the grammar schools were largely abolished and comprehensive education came in, the "sixth form" of the grammar school system disappeared. To cater for the able children now taught in comprehensive schools "Sixth Form Colleges" were established, separate from the normal stream. 86.177.172.210 (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

That may have happened in some cases, but is not generally true. My grammar school became a comprehensive while I was there, but the sixth form remained and I was in the sixth form of that comprehensive school.--Phil Holmes (talk) 07:41, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

In the case of the grammar schools the facilities were already present, so there was no need to outsource. In the case of the secondary moderns they might not have been. My local authority area has at least one sixth form college. It also has (uniquely when they were first introduced), "academies". These are secondary schools free from local authority control funded by business (we are adjacent to the City of London and they like to reach out to their impoverished neighbours). So far their results have been impressive. The government's aim now is (if I read them right) that all state schools should become academies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.44.160.251 (talk) 09:59, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

The school I attended had the usual lower and upper sixth, but it also had a "seventh form". This was a very small class for students who wanted to continue their school education but ran up against the problem that when they reached the age of nineteen it was illegal for them to remain in school. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 10:51, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

In most schools, pupils aged nineteen and over just stay in the sixth form. What law is contravened by their remaining in school? Dbfirs 16:03, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

The school I attended was in Oxford, and as the article (and a previous comment) points out this year is for pupils studying for the Oxford and Cambridge entrance examination. I don't know at what point in the year Oxford hopefuls sit the entrance examination, or if there even is an examination (maybe the interview is enough), but what exactly would a twenty year - old sixth former be studying? 80.44.160.251 (talk) 16:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

"next in earlier preference"- what does that mean?

the names of two or more candidates whether continuing or not are marked with the same figure and are next in earlier preference; Seen here What has earlier got to do with this? --14.139.185.2 (talk) 11:06, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

These are rules for proportional representation. The idea is that you mark the candidates in order of preference 1, 2, 3 etc. The rules provide that if you jump a preference (e.g. you write 1, 2, 4) the preferences after the jump do not count. Similarly, if there is no jump but you duplicate your preference (e.g. 1, 2, 2) the preference does not count, which is logical. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 13:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

What difference does it make, if you say "next in earlier preference" instead of "next in order of preference"? Does "next in earlier preference" make any sense at all? --14.139.185.2 (talk) 06:36, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

You link to a document which appears to have been prepared by a state - backed Muslim organisation in the Indian state of Kerala. The person who drew up that document may not have English as her native tongue. You have to make allowances. 80.44.160.251 (talk) 10:05, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

stake one's reputation on a particular cause

There's an idiom that I'm searching for. Google is failing me. The meaning is, roughly, to make a stand about a particular issue and/or stake one's reputation on a particular thing.

The context goes like this:

Person A - "Person X is making bogus claims about such and such. I've seen it happen long enough and I'm taking a stand!"

Person B - "I don't think . Person X may have made some bogus claims in the past, but it looks like they have a bit of a point here, so by making a stand this time you're not being effective and you might even be the one to look bad."

Something like " your to/on that ".

E.g. "hitch your wagon to that train", but not that. It is metaphorical, though, so also not the straightforward "stake your reputation on that claim".

Does that even make sense? :) — Rhododendrites \\ 20:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Hitch your horse to that wagon? Loraof (talk) 22:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

The google search box returns "don't hitch your wagon to a star". Loraof (talk) 22:53, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

See http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/stake+reputation+on.

—Wavelength (talk) 22:59, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Don't hang your hat ? Akld guy (talk) 23:22, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

I did try Google and went through various keywords on that idioms site with no luck. "Hitch your wagon to a star" (falling or otherwise) seems more along the lines of "riding coattails" or "following someone off a cliff" or somesuch, which isn't really what I'm going for. "Hang your hat on" seems like it might be a version of what I'm thinking of, but I could've sworn there was something more involved, like if there were a particular noun which followed "hang your hat on "... this is killing me :) — Rhododendrites \\ 00:32, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

"Nail your colours to the mast" is the traditional British expression, but I don't know if it's common in the States. In your sentence, it would be "I don't think you should nail your colours to that mast", which is not the sort of expression that most style guides encourage. Tevildo (talk) 07:51, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Jump on the bandwagon? --TammyMoet (talk) 11:07, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Stick to your guns? 80.44.160.251 (talk) 11:16, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Bet the farm on? 195.89.37.174 (talk) 11:51, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Or, as Misplaced Pages editors put it, "I'm not going to follow you down that particular rabbit hole" (the more aggressive ones change "rabbit hole" to "rathole" and throw in an expletive). 80.44.160.251 (talk) 17:23, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

"Is that a hill you want to die on?"/ "that's not a hill you want to die on"? SemanticMantis (talk) 18:18, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

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