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The Rambling Man

Initiated by Banedon (talk) at 05:13, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Banedon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
• The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• George Ho (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• The Rambling Man
• George Ho

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Multiple ANI cases have been filed in the past, e.g. . More examples in statement below.

Statement by Banedon

I'm filing this case request against The Rambling Man (TRM) for long-term civility issues. TRM's abrasive and incivil editing style has antagonized countless users —note how every single one of these examples involved a different editor. There's no shortage of diffs .

TRM has been the subject of several ANI cases going back to 2014, all of which were also filed by different editors. He has also been admonished by the Committee for incivility in January.

TRM is a longtime editor with a productive track record, and he has not abused his admin tools. But he's also defied multiple good faith attempts by different editors to work with him, and—contrary to policy—has handed out no shortage of demeaning insults. His edits are of the kind where he comes as close to the line as possible without actually crossing it, while trying to goad the other side to break the rules first. It is arguable that none of his edits individually deserve a sanction, but there are a lot of them.

If the Committee has repeatedly admonished and sanctioned those who act poorly when confronted with provocation and coordinated harassment, including TRM, then it surely must respond to a pattern of the same behavior in the face of repeated attempts by numerous long-standing editors to work with him in a productive and civil manner.

Clarifying that for this case request I'm not linking the incivility directly, rather evidence that multiple different editors have expressed disapproval of TRM's editing. Hence, I'm changing the diff that Iridescent is referring to. If this case is accepted, I can provide diffs that explicitly illustrate the incivility. Banedon (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Explaining why I filed this to Arbcom instead of starting another ANI thread. There are several reasons. One, TRM suggested several times to different people to do so. . Two, he has already been the subject of multiple ANI cases, but his behavior has not improved. I don't see why yet another ANI case will help. Finally, TRM has stated that he doesn't think highly of Arbcom . If this is his attitude towards the highest court in Misplaced Pages, then it's unlikely he thinks highly of ANI discussions, and a case there is probably futile. Banedon (talk) 11:14, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

One more thing: my understanding is that this is a case request, not (yet) an evidence page. In other words its main purpose is to answer the questions "is there a dispute?" and "is another form of dispute resolution possible?". I think the answers are fairly obviously "yes" and "no" respectively. Therefore Arbcom should accept this case. Accepting does not mean the committee must find against TRM. If, after considering all the evidence, the committee decides that TRM has done nothing wrong, that is also a result. Banedon (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by The Rambling Man

Statement by Lingzhi

I've never done the arb page thing before and don't know if this is the correct place to make a small comment, but the diff above to Ankylosing spondylitis calling it "Bechterew's disease" seems to refer to a genuine alternative (former) name. I am not sure how this shows antagonism.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 05:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by George Ho

TRM's arrogance is over the top already. Worst of all, certain people tolerate TRM's behavior and follow along and make vicious antics on me. Also, TRM is using ITN as his tool to put down on people. AHeneen, WaltCip might explain their own perspectives about him. --07:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

condensed further comments below; some responses to other editors eliminated. --George Ho (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

TRM threatens people, including me, if he is reported again. I was intimidated into not reporting him because... of my conflicts with others besides him, not because of him. 18:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Iridescent called me "problematic". Sure, I'm unpopular at ITN. However, ITN always has problematic ranting editors in the past long before my involvement on ITN. Unfortunately, ITN admins don't see the problems on so-called "minor" problems that annoy editors in the first place. Instead, two of them just see me as irrelevant and unnecessary. I'm trying my best to adjust my behavior until I realize that, until Wikipedians turn themselves around and be very warm and generous to all editors and help them, I don't need Misplaced Pages anymore. See my contributions? I have become less frequent than I used to be. I had enough of being put down and scolded until I decided to let others take TRM's side and then to do important stuff in real life. TRM and some gang made fun of me just because I had concerns about ITN and its editors and just because my ideas are poor quality. Also, an administrator, while not taking sides, found unpleasantness from TRM. I might provide more if any of claims are rebutted.

For those saying it's a witch hunt, can anyone rebut this evidence and that evidence and that evidence? 20:57, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Callanecc, one of arbitrators, might be involved with TRM per this discussion. Same for DGG, who voted for his bureaucratship.

Look at the FFD discussion, the ITN talk about fair use, and the Sally Brampton RD nomination. He and ITN admins could not commemorate the woman's name in the Main Page just because a non-free image is used (and considered replaceable) until weeks later the free-to-share image replaced the image. Also, he berated people for not thoroughly searching for a free image of a deceased person... or finding ways to make an image free, especially in the time of mourning of recently deceased. The case is not a farce; it highlights everything he has done to others. Maybe his participation at Misplaced Pages talk:In the news/2016 RD proposal counts? 21:09, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

ArbCom, I urge acceptance of this case. Matters with TRM have gone far enough. Regarding ITN, I used the RD situation as an excuse to leave the venue. Actually, I lost most of interest in ITN because of its designation and TRM's bad but powerful influence on ITN. Maybe Iridescent and RGloucester are right; ITN succumbs to bureaucracy and, if bureaucracy falls, then chaotic anarchy. Umm... in defense of Begoon, he might not know the true nature of TRM. That's all I can say. 15:56, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Somehow, similar to Medeis, I received "thanks" from TRM for notifying two editors. Several months ago, he thanked me for requesting speedy deletion on File:Sally Brampton at Malou efter tio TV4 2009.jpg, which I fought for keeping it until TRM uploaded a free image. Also, I received this anonymous message with a link to YouTube clip saying how "dumb" the message was (actually, it's a clip from the film, Billy Madison). I don't know who sent me that message, but the WHOIS says it came from Atlanta, GA. I feel uncomfortable receiving thanks from him and anonymous scolding messages. 21:08, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Iridescent

I'm not getting involved in this request and urge the committee to decline it—Arbcom is a venue of last resort, not ANI 2.0, and we have well-established mechanisms for judging the merits of "someone was rude to me" cases that don't involve month-long timesinks—but just to point out that the section on my talkpage cited as "evidence" above is being taken hugely out of context. TRM's comments there were very mild comments directed towards a long-term problematic editor, and not "abrasive and incivil " by any reasonable measure. ‑ Iridescent 08:35, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Clerks, my posting a single comment here does not mean I want you either listing me as a party, or flooding my talkpage with notifications.

Note also that this has only been open a couple of hours and the canvassing has already started. ‑ Iridescent 09:18, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

George Ho, will you please put a sock in your "ITN admin" conspiracy theory, which got tiresome long ago? As I'm sure you know perfectly well (given that it's explained to you explicitly in the thread you link and acknowledged by yourself here) I have no links to ITN (every edit I have ever made to WT:ITN) and have spent many years arguing for it to be deprecated altogether. That TRM is watching my talkpage is owing to the Jesus College Boat Club (Oxford) and Norwich City F.C. articles ending up on our mutual watchlists a decade ago, not that we're involved in some kind of conspiracy to deny you your Special Snowflake status. (As a tip; if you're going to make unfounded and easily-refuted attacks, RFAR is probably not the most sensible place to be doing it.) ‑ Iridescent 09:38, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by AlexTiefling

I have a comparatively low tolerance for timewasting bullshit in WP discussions. I find myself contributing less and less as time passes. Brushes with extreme incivility in the past - including someone impersonating and someone (possibly another person) doxxing me - have left me extremely weary of interactions here. I came to terms with medeis and Baseball Bugs because while I may dislike their styles of interaction, I can't pretend that they're not putting more in than me.

Why do I say this? Because TRM is an admin. An admin is supposed to be above all this. An admin is supposed to be an exemplar of how to contribute to WP. But here we see him actively advocating dumbing-down a fairly routine bit of copy because he thinks our readers are intellectually 'limited'. And the numerous examples cited above and in the many other complaints brought against TRM show that he is perpetually spoiling for a fight, and holds both readers and editors in contempt. I have largely withdrawn from RD editing because between the peanut gallery and the trolls, it's hard to find any useful content or purpose there. TRM almost single-handedly brings that same atmosphere - and its consequences - to ITN/C and other places where he engages in discussion.

I believe TRM is unfit to be an admin, and should also be topic-banned from the whole of RD and ITN; this should enable him to focus on aspects of WP that he's better at, and let the rest of us who can still stand to stay get on with salvaging the parts of the site which are currently smothered by unsupported opinions and vitriol. AlexTiefling (talk) 09:30, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Softlavender

I have no particular viewpoint here, but when the best a canvassed editor (AlexTiefling, above) can come up with is an extremely civil, extremely polite and reasonable comment (not even a !vote) in a survey , we are in time-wasting territory. Softlavender (talk) 09:56, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

New Comment: I've been reading through the statements here, and I found AHeneen's suggestion to be useful, since some Arbs have requested scope: "A starting point for appropriate sanctioning is probably to ban TRM from making any comments (including edit summaries!) about other editors and, to prevent circumvention of that, judgmental remarks about content added by other editors. A possible ban from ITN & DYK (other than making a nomination) should also be considered." If this case is accepted, that might be something to bear in mind. I think the last sentence would be a last resort, and hopefully only be temporary if actually resorted to. However the first sentence sounds as though it would satisfy the needs of many people who have expressed concerns and upset (both here and on various other places on the project). And I don't believe the case would need more parties -- there have been quite a number of ArbCom cases without more than one party, and if it is confined to the specific parameters of ADMINCOND and ADMINACCT that AHeneen specified, I don't think it would be a witchhunt if civility among commenters is enforced. Softlavender (talk) 06:26, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by KevinMcE

I spend very little time here now, partly because I noticed that I could become more angry than I needed to be about stuff that really didn't matter, and partly because I grew increasingly fed up of people telling me how I should spend the voluntary effort that I contributed here. TRM seems to have been long susceptible to the former, and long guilty of the latter. When editors are thus treated by those raised to admin status, they (I at least, but I cannot imagine that my response is unusual) lose confidence in the project. TRM obviously has made very valuable contributions, but really needs to recognise when his own disposition is such that he needs to step away from the keyboard for a while, for the sake of both his own reputation and regard here and the sense of respectful co-operation that the project depends on. Kevin McE (talk) 11:01, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

I scanned the diffs provided and see some evidence (e.g. ) of a long-term grudge against TRM by the filing party. I defy you to find any active admin who has not been dragged to the drama boards, so the mere existence of ANI threads is not evidence of anything, and threads linked in the diffs closed with the equivalent of a mild WP:TROUT at most.

A lot of the drama seems to centre on ITN/RD, where there is a community of people who tend to feel rather proprietorial and become emotionally invested in getting certain things on the front page. Given the length of time the OP has been on TRM's case, and the underwhelming nature of the diffs provided (really? is that the best you have?), I don't see there's anything actionable here. At worst it's a job for AN. Guy (Help!) 11:08, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

NB: DYK hyas precisely the same problems as ITN/RD. In fact anywhere people start collecting badges, you get this issue. Guy (Help!) 15:52, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Andrew Davidson

I was surprised that Arbcom accepted the case against Michael Hardy but The Rambling Man (TRM) is routinely worse and, for a fresh example, see DYK where TRM has a slanging match with admin Gatoclass who opines that there's a "temperamental unfitness for the extra bit". That incident reminds me of the previous arbcom case of Kww vs TRM. If this case is accepted, I will be able to provide more evidence of numerous other incidents including violations of WP:EDITWAR, WP:HOUND, WP:INVOLVED and WP:WHEEL. Andrew D. (talk) 11:24, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Allen3

This is not a problem that is confined to ITN and RD. At DYK, The Rambling Man's antagonistic style has been called out on multiple occasions. To date he has been either unwilling or unable to modify his approach to dealing with those with whom he disagrres. This is sad because while there is usually a core of truth in The Rambling Man's position, his inability to deal with others in a civil manner usually creates opposition to his position that would have been unlikely to exist if he could just behave appropriately. --Allen3  12:30, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Sca

TRM has a rather long history of unpleasant, contentious encounters with me. Rather than attempt to cite chapter & verse, I would like to re-post (most of) a comment I made last Jan. 24 in response to another arbcom complaint against him:

Since I've had a number of less than congenial encounters with TRM over that last couple years, a few observations:

• TRM at times seemingly couldn't resist the urge to employ vituperative, spiteful, belittling language. While such repartee may pass as humor among old friends – and some of us are tempted to indulge in it – among others it inevitably engenders resentment, personal animosity and angry responses in kind.
• TRM sometimes has employed POV language that strikes some U.S. users as gratuitously anti-American.

On the other hand, TRM often has shown solid judgment in managing ITN matters, particularly by putting passing issues in perspective. In my view, if TRM could acquire genuine respect for the opinions of others, and eschew vitriolic language, his renewed presence could be an asset.

Those observations remain relevant. However, coincidentally or not, in the last week or so TRM has seemed surprisingly civil, even polite. On Aug. 15 he even thanked me for hiding a spiteful exchange he had with another editor at MP/E. Sca (talk) 15:33, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

PS: Upon reflection, I withdraw the bit about anti-American comments as outdated. I don't recall such in recent months.

But I do wish TRM was more receptive to suggested refinements in blurbs at MP/E. Sca (talk) 21:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Baseball Bugs

TRM and I were once under a mutual interaction ban, which was ended at his initiative. I am unaware of him abusing admin tools. And regarding incivility, I've seen a lot worse. I would oppose any action against TRM. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Others here have talked about ITN. I left ITN, not particularly because of TRM, nor necessarily because of the significant anti-American bias there - but rather because of the slipshod standards other editors began using to determine "Recent Deaths" inclusions. When they collectively decided that a charlatan "psychic" was worth posting, while voting down more worthy candidates, it was clear ITN had become worthless. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:44, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Hammersoft

I wish to state, for the record, I am not involved in this current dispute. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:54, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

This is a case that without scope restrictions would be a lynching. As has been repeated many times by ArbCom, and continues to this day with but one exception that I know of, ArbCom does not layout the scope of a case. The scope of this case is critically important. If the scope is not defined, then it's a free for all against TRM. The scope must be defined, if the case is accepted.

In regards to accepting the case, I would like to highlight the following, to layout a pattern of sorts, in regards to TRM:

• Twice claimed he would try to do better . To the latter claim, just two months later he was violating his own assertions of trying to improve and avoid noting pro-American bias .
• January 2014, three way interaction ban placed between TRM, Baseball Bugs, and Medeis (AN/I thread). This was removed in July of 2015 by consensus (AN/I thread), with TRM saying "I can only offer a guarantee that from my perspective things will never get as heated or as counter-productive as they did prior to the restriction." Yet, all of the incivility diffs provided by Banedon postdate this 'guarantee'. Further, in July of 2016 TRM accuses Baseball Bugs of not understanding how Misplaced Pages works .
• January 2016, TRM is called out by ArbCom in a motion for incivility and personal attacks and warned "future similar conduct may result in sanctions". Several of the diffs provided postdate this motion. Further, we have things like
  • "have you considered being less obnoxious and time-wasting?" Granted, this was done in response to someone, but WP:CIVIL doesn't have a clause that allows you to be uncivil because someone else is. In fact, it states the opposite (2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence).
  • "Stop acting like you own the place" , edit summary
  • "jolly old Brad acting like the schoolmaster (a position he feels determined to occupy despite having no such credentials)"

There is likely more evidence, but I think these serve to highlight that while TRM is aware of his civility/NPA issues, and he claims to intend to improve, he doesn't improve. The cycle keeps repeating.

I recommend ArbCom accept this case as the various WP:AN/I threads have failed to resolve the issue, and the prior motion by ArbCom regarding his behavior failed to achieve any change. However, that recommendation comes with an extremely strong warning to strictly identify the scope of this case. I would recommend limiting civility/NPA evidence to only actions taken by TRM since the motion, which would serve to show contempt for the motion/warning, supporting further sanctions. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:08, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

@George Ho: This is why limiting the scope of the case is critically important. The thread you are noting comes from 2013, a little over three years ago. It was dealt with via an interaction ban that was placed about 7 months later, and vacated a year and a half later after that. The matter there is closed. There are plenty of matters like this over the years in regards to TRM, and yes this case could easily become a witch hunt if we do not limit the scope of the case. That is why I proposed limiting the scope to actions by TRM since the January 2016 motion against his incivility and NPA violations. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:44, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

@George Ho: And again you've shown, if unintentionally, why limiting the scope of the case is critically important. You ask if I'm really uninvolved, and as basis you reference a thread from more than FOUR years ago. To my knowledge, I've not interacted with TRM in more than a year. So, yeah, I'm uninvolved with this current dispute. If we don't limit the scope to only what TRM has done since the motion, this case will be a farce. Thanks to severely broken structural issues with ArbCom and its methods, TRM will never be able to defend himself against 11 years worth of time and >150k edits investigation by the tons of people already commenting on this case. TRM is right; this is a lynch mob. I do feel ArbCom needs to take this case to resolve this long standing issue, but doing so via dragging up threads from four years ago is hardly helpful. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:51, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

@George Ho: If you want this case to proceed, I strongly suggest you take the advice offered by sitting ArbCom member Opabinia regalis here. If you want to discuss my thoughts further, you're welcome to my talk page. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:14, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by WaltCip

This is a witch hunt.--WaltCip (talk) 16:39, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Okay, perhaps I should follow up on my above statement to provide further explanation. In the filing of this case, the primary complainants engaged in blatant canvassing attempts to locate lists of users who have had prior negative experiences with The Rambling Man, either recently or from years past, so right off the bat, a good number of the incoming statements are thoroughly skewed. WP:ITN and WP:DYK are thankless administrative jobs, the main responsibility of which is to feature content on the main page either from timely stories or from recently created articles. Managing these aspects of the Misplaced Pages front page carries the burden of filtering out malformed, irrelevant, or otherwise poorly updated content. TRM has spearheaded efforts to optimize and improve ITN processes. The way he goes about it can be blunt and abrasive, but apart from that, carries a net benefit for the project.

The vast expanse of complaints are regarding his civility or his manner of communication. Civility, however sternly enforced of a policy it may be on Misplaced Pages, is a policy that is highly subjective and hotly contested. The de facto precedence surrounding the policy is that civility is countermanded by the weight and value of an editor's or admin's contributions. We have seen this time and time again on Misplaced Pages. If ArbCom is to take this case and make a ruling with regards to that, it would by extension need to exercise this same standard everywhere on Misplaced Pages - not just on the mainspace but also in the backchannels such as ITN, DYK, etc..

In any case, I do not feel that ArbCom should hear this case, not when other processes of mediation have yet to be fully exhausted before employing a broad, sweeping and - frankly at this time - excessive sanction.--WaltCip (talk) 13:46, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@The ed17: - You accuse me of using the Malleus defense. Eric Corbett has gone to extraordinary lengths to boost a significant number of articles to featured and good status on Misplaced Pages, has created dozens of other articles of which some are also featured and/or good, and has been a highly active mainspace editor since the project's creation. And this is bad how, exactly?--WaltCip (talk) 16:26, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Winkelvi

Agree with WaltCip and Softlavender. As such, is it possible to initiate a boomerang for the filer of an inappropriate and frivolous ArbCom case? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Purplebackpack89

There's no doubt about it; there's a problem here. There's an ANI about TRM's incivility seemingly every few weeks, and it's usually with a different editor every time. I also believe the Rambling Man has abused the power granted to him in reviewing good and featured article candidates. On GA and FA reviews, he has a habit of acting like he's the only person who knows anything or does any work. This is not only inaccurate, it's very offputting to people who have literally slaved to get articles to approach GA or FA stats. TRM makes his support for FA and GA contigent on often very pedantic points (one time he told me I should format a basketball FAC like a favorite boating FA of his; even though there were other existing basketball GAs that I had borrowed the format from). Also, there are times a GA/FA where he does very dickish things, such as demanding that GA/FA nominators make minor edits that would take him only a few seconds to do himself. GA and FA has increasingly "jump through unnecessary hoops set up by TRM"; TRM often uses his GA and FA comments to "teach lessons" and/or tailor FAs/GAs to his own personal whims rather than actually improve articles. It sounds like similar things are going on at ITN. People have tried to talk him down from his frequent incivility, his response is one or more of a) ignoring the comments (such as here and here), b) blaming the people who criticize him, and/or c) engaging in more incivility (such as here). I encourage ArbCom to investigate TRM with a scope of his interactions with other editors in the past 12-18 months, especially on User talk pages, ANI, ITN, FA and GA. I urge them to consider sanctions against this clearly disruptive editor. In general, I agree with the actions proposed by User:AlexTiefling above: removal of admin rights, and pulling him from ITN, GA and FA. pbp 17:13, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Responses to other statements

• @331dot: One important thing to remember is that TRM has near-veto power at ITN, FA and GA, and that editors are almost forced to interact with him (like it or not) if they want to be participants in those projects. This is one thing I'd like addressed by ArbCom or somebody: how one editor can have so much sway over ITN, FA and GA, with very little checks and balances from anybody else? Also, I agree with User:Mandruss. TRM has had so many bad interactions with so many different editors that you can't pawn it off on the other editors anymore. It's clear at this point that he's a major part of the problem and should face its consequences. pbp 02:15, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
• @331dot: Am I to gather that you're OK with admins grossly violating civility or other pillars, so long as they don't misuse the tools? Because the basis I (and others here) have for removal of his admin tools is that gross incivility is conduct unbecoming an admin, even if isn't misuse of tools per se pbp 03:10, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
• @Begoon: @Floquenbeam: To say that TRM only chews out ITN/FA/GA trolls is a bit much. You also seem to suggest at least a little that TRM is entitled to use profanity and low-level personal attacks against said editors, which I think I would also dispute. pbp 20:21, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Masem

I will note that, in so far as my primarily interaction being at WP:ITN and its work pages, TRM has a "holier-than-thou" elitist attitude that is infectiously bad that others pick on (mostly in to counter TRM's behavior) and that has made it at times difficult to hold reasonable discussions but not to the point of disruption. But importantly, TRM has not shown any abuse of the admin bit or anything in terms of edit warring or the like. This is 100% an issue related to civility. Unfortunately, I don't think this is a case that ArbCom should take unless it can be shown that we've exhausted all possible attempts to help quell this attitude. Yes, TRM is frequently brought to ANI, but ANI itself is also the wrong place to address this (I lament the loss of RFC/U which would have been the best point for this type of discussion). --MASEM (t) 17:49, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Small note: though I was notified of this, I had seen this case get posted well before the notification and had planned to comment anyway. --MASEM (t) 14:36, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Davey2010

You can understand why TRM tends to be uncivil when those working at ITN/DYK etc try & push their stuff to the front page especially when it's utter crap, Admittingly I think TRM does need to tone it down a notch but other than that I don't see any problematic behaviour and as noted above this isn't ANI 2.0 - All of this could've been resolved at ANI, No admin tools have been used nor abused so this shouldn't be accepted, At most perhaps a reminder to TRM to tone it down abit. –Davey2010 18:09, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Hzh

I had just one argument with TRM (that I know of), that is when he decided to deflect a discussion by turning the discussion onto me instead using something completely unrelated to the discussion. I thought it unwarranted that he should present himself as more qualified than me to edit when he is flouting the guidelines. However, it was something quickly forgotten (I had to go back and check what the argument was about), just the usual uncivil behaviour that I see quite often on WP, not serious enough to raise a stink about. But I am surprised to find out that he is an admin, and therefore should know better than to act in such a manner. Hzh (talk) 18:59, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by sunshineisles2

I've had more than a few encounters with TRM, mainly on the ITN page. Initially, I thought he was just a regular editor who tended to be more assertive than the rest. Later, upon reading more of his contributions, I discovered he was not only an admin, but regularly found it appropriate to insult and belittle users he disagreed with, often questioning their general intelligence while placing himself forward as infallible, unless proven wrong by someone he liked. Eventually, I found his comments so disheartening and unprofessional that I decided to leave ITN before ever really getting involved with any discussions. He is a prolific editor, to be sure, but he should know better. His default mindset seems to be defensiveness, which is hardly how you approach an editorial discussion. A close look at his behavior proves that he demonstrates limited respect for a cordial process, especially for someone who wields both administrative power and the responsibilities that come with it. Look at his response to this on his talk page -- he outright dismisses the case as a "lynch mob" run by "social media rejects and admin wannabes". --Sunshineisles2 (talk) 19:25, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Floquenbeam

I can't really defend TRM's übersnarkiness, and would have been tempted to take a pass on commenting on this case, except I can't help but note that editors with a reputation for rudeness/brusqueness (I can think of at least a half dozen, I'm sure you can too) sure do seem to attract more than their share of people who can't help seem to enjoy throwing small pebbles at them all the time to see if they can provoke another outburst. It's not 100% applicable, but I am reminded of User:Geogre/Comic. Not all of the people complaining above are such people - Kevin McE, in particular, always struck me as someone getting snarked at for no real reason - but several of them are. I don't think ArbCom is set up well to efficiently remove timesinks from the project - I certainly have no idea how to - but if any Arbs figure out how to do that, that would be helpful.

And geez, TRM, just learn to let shit go sometimes. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:29, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

See, here's a good example. Ed is being unethical by taking one phrase of my statement out of context. It makes me very angry. But if I were to say something rude in response, I'd be the "uncivil" one. And no one is going to tell him to stop being unethical. But people seem to think that's not the problem, the problem is being snarky. It is not against policy to be unethical, it is against policy to be rude? It is not against policy to be a gigantic timesink at ITN, but it is against policy to point it out? Weird. --Floquenbeam (talk) 03:36, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Also, is anyone going to point out the 500 word limit to George Ho? --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:07, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by AHeneen

I haven't participated in arbitration discussions before, but will give this a shot. First and foremost, Civility is one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages. Administrators are not above civility policies! See WP:ADMINCOND: Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others. Administrators are expected to follow Misplaced Pages policies and to perform their duties to the best of their abilities. ... ustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages is incompatible with the status of administrator, and consistently or egregiously poor judgment may result in the removal of administrator status. And from the following section (WP:ADMINACCT): Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Misplaced Pages-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed. Administrators who seriously, or repeatedly, act in a problematic manner or have lost the trust or confidence of the community may be sanctioned or have their access removed.

My experience with TRM was about 2 years ago, after which I stopped participating in ITN and haven't really interacted with TRM since. The opening statement by Banedon provides substantial evidence of TRM's continued, habitual uncivil behavior. The by others above and a quick browse through TRM's recent contributions) show that: 1) TRM's uncivil behavior is current and persistent & 2) very disruptive. Several editors support TRM for his many contributions, but that doesn't excuse persistent incivility that violates a core policy and creates a hostile editing environment! During my interaction, I noticed that TRM frequently made snarky comments (taunting/baiting fellow editors), belittled other editors, and made frequent, unreasonable use of profanity. For examples, see the post I made on TRM's talk page (second to last discussion). Compare that with the uncivil behaviors. I started a discussion at ANI (first ANI link at top of this thread), but it didn't go anywhere. Several users remarked that without abuse of admin tools, there's nothing to be done at ANI. TRM is brash, perpetually flings insults at others and then when confronted, uses belittling remarks towards the other editor(s) and refuses to let grudges go.

A starting point for appropriate sanctioning is probably to ban TRM from making any comments (including edit summaries!) about other editors and, to prevent circumvention of that, judgmental remarks about content added by other editors. A possible ban from ITN & DYK (other than making a nomination) should may also be considered.

Statement by Mandruss

We all lie somewhere on a spectrum of competence. It's a mathematical requirement that 1% of us are in the top 1% of competence, and they are in fact superior to 99% of the community. I submit that a very significant part of that competence is the ability to work cooperatively with other editors, this being fundamentally a collaborative project, and that that is something the community generally fails to recognize. Over all, then, TRM and some others are not nearly as high on the spectrum as they believe, nor nearly as valuable to the project as they believe.

If admins should exemplify Misplaced Pages principles, and I believe they should, TRM has demonstrated his lack of qualification for that role. Of course there are other admins who shouldn't be admins for the same reason, but to use that as an excuse is a recipe for failure. This has to be addressed one case at a time, and Other Stuff Exists.

This case is anything but "frivolous", and hyperbole like "witch hunt" and "lynching" is never helpful in these matters. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:33, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

331dot said: If people don't like their interactions with him, then they shouldn't interact with him. No one forces them to respond to his comments (and on some occasions that I see, people give as good as they get) - So if TRM is abusive, he can and should be ignored. If others are abusive to him, his abusive response is justified and well-deserved. The double standard could NOT be more clear, and yet it seems invisible to many. It forms the basis for much (most?) of his defense. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:02, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

331dot said: That isn't what I was suggesting at all- only that one can't fight fire with fire and then complain when they get burned. - The burned are not the only ones "complaining"" here. TRM's abuse has been directed at me only once in my memory, long ago, and it was because he didn't like my argument, not because I was remotely abusive to him. The rest of my experience in this matter consists of my observation of him directing his abuse at others who did not "deserve" it. Let's not make the serious mistake of dismissing the whole issue because some of it stems from grudges in editors who are as culpable as TRM.
Anyway, I believe that true civility means treating others with common human respect even if they don't deserve it—no, especially when they don't deserve it. Things get very tangled and confused when we tolerate and excuse "deserved" abuse, since it opens the door to abuse by anyone who feels that their opponent "deserves" it. Lo and behold, Misplaced Pages is very tangled and confused on the issue of civility, and ANI is a continuous stream of disputes between editors who both feel the other "deserved" their abuse. From where I sit, it's systemic insanity. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:26, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Try to imagine a mainstream (consensus) psychologist saying that the "deserved abuse" concept is in any way conducive to productive collaboration. I can't imagine that, can you? And yet, productive collaboration is what we're here for. Simple logic dictates that (1) you recognize that the "deserved abuse" approach is directly counter to Misplaced Pages's mission goals, and you change your position accordingly, or (2) you completely dismiss and reject mainstream psychology. Full stop. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:51, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

But let's confine this to policy for the moment. My position is fully and unambiguously supported by WP:BATTLEGROUND, part of a Misplaced Pages policy. What policy fully and unambiguously supports the opposing position? As a group, do we support policy here, or don't we? What is the point of policy that is routinely and systematically ignored? This is not rhetorical, it's at the crux of the matter, and I would be genuinely interested in serious and considered responses. Absence of same will be telling. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:00, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Montanabw

This is a case that ArbCom should snow decline. The reality is simple: "TRM is a longtime editor with a productive track record, and he has not abused his admin tools." Full stop. End of story. I have had nothing but positive interactions with this editor over the years, even when we have disagreed. Be civil to him and he's civil to you. Be a snotrag toward him and, well, you're on your own. Yes, TRM has been a little more snarky than usual lately, but I think that it's just a bit of wiki-burnout and it will pass (except perhaps for those who insist on lobbing pebbles).

Further ArbCom isn't, as another editor stated, ANI2. People need to focus on content, and, to be frank, listen to experienced editors. Montanabw 06:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Only in death

I look forward to the opening of this case so I can present evidence of continuous, lengthy ongoing errors, mistakes and other assorted misdeeds by a selection of regulars at ITN/DYK that require continuous policing by vigilant watchers like TRM. I am not sure some of the DYK people really want that however.... Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:31, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement from The ed17

Hi arbs. The statements above say all you need to know to accept the case. Even The Rambling Man's supporters admit that there is a problem, even after this very body admonished him in January of this year, just seven months ago:

• "The way he goes about it can be blunt and abrasive, but apart from that, carries a net benefit for the project." (This is the Malleus defense. I hope the arbs will reject it.)
• "You can understand why TRM tends to be uncivil ..." (No. There is no excuse for being uncivil to editors. We are supposed to have collegial editing environment.)
• "Yes, TRM has been a little more snarky than usual lately ..." (Seven months after being admonished for incivility, he's "more snarky than usual.")
• "I can't really defend TRM's übersnarkiness ..."

That said, I'll keep going.

I and many others have been at the stinging end of The Rambling Man's barbs recently, barbs that tear down the "collegial atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia," and I believe it's time for Arbcom to step in again and enforce its admonishment. Otherwise, what's the point of passing it? As Banedon says, "If the Committee has repeatedly admonished and sanctioned those who act poorly when confronted with provocation and coordinated harassment, including TRM, then it surely must respond to a pattern of the same behavior in the face of repeated attempts by numerous long-standing editors to work with him in a productive and civil manner." (italics mine)

You can see examples in Banedon's list of diffs. Just last month, for example, when Sca felt compelled to say "TRM, really, do you always have to get in a dig or insult every time you communicate with me? I didn't start this exchange that way – I sought to be conciliatory." Or AlexTiefling four days before, although not made in response to incivility in this case: "Have you considered being less patronising and condescending?" Or from January's arbitration case: "I speak only as someone who has suffered for years from incivility and bullying from this admin at WP:ITN." Such behavior has only continued.

Taken as a whole, there's a clear pattern of an utter disregard for WP:ADMINCOND by The Rambling Man. I implore Arbcom to take this case. No one should get a free license to be openly uncivil to other contributors, no matter what area they're working in. Ed  19:51, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

+100000 to Mandruss' statements above. Ed  19:53, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

@Arbs: the argument that TRM did not misuse his administrator tools, appearing both above and below, is a misnomer. The Rambling Man has been admonished was cited by several members of this committee in January for "incivility and using inflammatory language" and was "advised that instances of incivility or inflammatory language may result in sanctions." He has continued to use inflammatory language, and that's why we're here today. Ed  00:54, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Underlined text added for accuracy. Ed  04:16, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@George Ho: thank you, I've been linking to the wrong section. I suppose this comes down to how you read the "integrated" motion, which says "The Committee notes that The Rambling Man ... has used uncivil and inflammatory language and made personal attacks during the course of this dispute (, , ). He is advised that future similar conduct may result in sanctions. Noting that The Rambling Man has retired during the course of this request, his return to his usual productive content work would be welcomed." It doesn't specifically "admonish" him, but to me it reads very close to the intended admonishment. YMMV. Ed  04:16, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

@Floquenbeam: no ping? You've literally stated that you can't defend TRM's problematic comments, so I fail to see where I'm being unethical. In any case, taken to a logical extreme, you believe that TRM should be able to get away with any invective language as long as he can claim that he was provoked? Right. I assume that's not your intended meaning. I do wonder what happened to this Floq, who spoke out against TRM's unnecessarily inflammatory language. Nothing against you personally, Floq, but I can't disagree more with your comments here.

There's a way to say "you're a gigantic timesink," and it's not this. Ed  04:31, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by 331dot

Like others above I urge that this be declined. The bringer of this case concedes that TRM does not abuse his admin tools and is a productive contributor in general. I think that's all that matters. If people don't like their interactions with him, then they shouldn't interact with him. No one forces them to respond to his comments(and on some occasions that I see, people give as good as they get) Isn't their something better we could all be doing?

@Mandruss: That isn't what I was suggesting at all- only that one can't fight fire with fire and then complain when they get burned. There's enough bad behavior to go around and it isn't justified when it happens, but I am unconvinced that this is the forum to deal with it. 331dot (talk) 01:18, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

@Purplebackpack89: TRM does not solely control what is on ITN(I can't speak to the other projects as I don't participate there) so I find "near-veto power" to be a grave exaggeration. If you want to check or balance him, I invite you to participate in ITN. Unless you are accusing him of misusing his admin powers removing them should be a nonstarter. Even the bringer of this case does not see that as an issue. 331dot (talk) 02:23, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

@Purplebackpack89: I think there are other ways to address the issue and that we all have better things to do. 331dot (talk) 03:33, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Medeis

While I respect user Baseball Bugs benevolence above, I have to say that after thinking about this for 24 hours, I agree in full with User:AlexTiefling's recommendation. TRM should be stripped of his adminship (something he himself has "dared" the community to do in the past) and be banned from ITN and the Ref Desks for a certain period but without prejudice. In other words, after a certain period of good behavior, he should be able to re-apply as a newbie for adminship and request that the topic bans be removed.

My opinion is based on the uncontested claim that TRM is regularly and continues to be uncivil at ITN, and his anti-American bias is intolerably unbecoming of an admin, and frequently affects his actions regarding whether an issue is ready to post or worthy of posting. This has been one reason that rather than continue to improve ITN noms so that they are postworthy, I have simply stayed away, and only made minor comments.

Having had to spend much of 2014 dealing with a request that TRM be IBANned from dealing with me, I am sick of the issue. Even then the exact same attacks continued from IP addresses after the ban. At some point TRM seems to have become bored due to my lack of responses. But he simply continued the same behavior with other users. I have saved scores of edits and diffs from that period, and would be glad to retrieve them and make them available as a subpage on my userpage if this arbcom request is accepted.

μηδείς (talk) 22:49, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Since commenting here, I have received an unwelcome edit to my talk page from TRM, received a "thanks" for the above edit from TRM, and had my email hacked with someone calling themselves assh*le.uk.co as the owner of my account, which I cannot access, and where I have received an email from User:Sca. I find the coincidence troubling to say the least. μηδείς (talk) 20:01, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Rhoark

The only thing I'm gathering from all these statements is that a number of people are upset with this editor, but that's equally likely to be a symptom of doing something very right as it is of doing something very wrong. A few comments have indicated there's maybe a problem with respect to American politics, in which case discretionary sanctions are available. Mostly though it seems to be about feelings. Arbitration is not therapy. Rhoark (talk) 04:00, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Yellow Dingo

I urge the arbs to decline this case. Although TRM has had some civility issues in the past he has not abused the tools. I don't see what the eventual findings of this could be. He hasn't done wrong enough to be-dysopped or blocked. I'm also not seeing enough evidence that points towards a legitimate need for an arbcom case. - Yellow Dingo (talk) 05:28, 20 August 2016 (UTC)