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Archives

Talk:Terry Goodkind/Archive 1

Note to new readers

This page changes very frequently, and it is difficult to read chronologically. Make sure to look through the archive as well to get a sense of whole page. Personally I have found the easiest way to keep up to date on changes is to use the compare versions feature (duh!) but you may want to go back to mid-July to get a sense of the changes and issues of the page. WLU 12:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction

Does anyone have a good source for the nubmer of books sold by Terry Goodkind? Options include: http://www.prophets-inc.com/news/ or http://www.scglit.com/press.htm or http://www.prophets-inc.com/the_author/ 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Mystar thinks that the figure should be 20 million based on figures from TG, I would like a figure that is justified more independently verified. I've checked the above links, and I can't find any reference to the 20 million figure. Mystar, can you provide a link to the 20 figure, or instructions on how to reach it? WLU 02:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest using the exact TOR figure and simply making a notation that the number does not include many foriegn sales and then citing it. Sound reasonable? NeoFreak 04:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me!Mystar 04:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Then unless any other editors have a issue with it I think we can implement that change post mediation? NeoFreak 04:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Work

There is an ongoing debate about his work and influence. Older items have been archived, what is current remains below 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I happen to have several prints of Goodkind's work in my home and IF you have any of the SOT books you also have some of his work there as well. Goodkind painted the leaf pattern on the inside pages of the first few books. It took him 50+ hours to do that piece, as it is a very difficult piece of work. dot, painting and shading is not the easiest thing to do. The image of Cara of Temple of the Winds is also a piece of Goodkind's work, but that is nothing compared to the real work he has done with realistic marine and wildlife paintings. He has several shows at various galleries, his last painting titles Penguins on Ice http://www.terrygoodkind.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2045 sold for over for over $30,000.00 ten years ago, and was just resold for over $200,000.00 earlier this year. Mystar 03:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's good enough for me but having a link to the sale, a independant site/gallery/etc or anything else along those lines will go a long way. I'm not inclined to believe that there is an elborate hoax set up to decieve people into thinking his is a commissioned artist when he is not. Without a thiry party reference though the wording should read "Terry Goodkind has claimed" or words to that effect. Still, I see no problem including it in the article. NeoFreak 03:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Symbolism

There was a section on symbolism that has not been touched since 2005. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

First off I think all this should go to the SoT pages and not the TG page. Secondly there is no doubt that the books are infused with Objectivist symbolism and TG has stated as much in interviews and online chat (has he not?) plus it's just in your face obvious. Just make sure it get sourced and it shouldn't be a problem to include it as it is relevant to the subject. NeoFreak 03:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Previous careers

Some individuals discussed previous careers, such as hypnotist and formula one driver.

Mystar was going to provide proof and references to this, which will add to the page if they are available. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Philosophical Views!

Terry Goodkind puts a lot of objectivist philosophy in his books. Some find it preachy. Goodkind's response on an on-line chat was: Goodkind explained to those present who had criticized his writing style with such harsh criticism of the base philosophy and the moral and ethical values contained within the series, saying that they were not fans, and that they hated that his novels existed. He also claimed "their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy that which is good... These people hate what is good because it is good." We have seen the full effect and thuth of this fact by the attacks against the values with in the series, against the moral and ethicial set the characters uphold. Mystar contested this, there was some back and forth, the debate is ongoing and as of August 28th, 2006, was reflected in the article itself below. Stuff from June and before was archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Photo

There was discussion whether the photo in the article was recent. Mystar stated that it was, and provided several other pictures to put up if people wanted. There were no takers, and the photo seen as of August 28th, 2006 was the same one that has been up for a while. The other photos are below. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There was also a brief discussion circa April 2006 about TG editorializing. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

A discussion of cleaning up the discussion page. I'm doing so, archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability of "online chat"

There was a discussion of the verifiability and usefulness of on-line chat as a source of information for Misplaced Pages. Originally this was an discussion which ended up being a series of heated remarks and discussion outside of the original topic. All posts dated to before August. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Alienus and Mystar

A long dialogue between these two posters. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Mystar's Edits

A dialogue between Runch, Mystar and Werthead dating July 2006 initially about archiving rather than deleting the talk page. Soon moved past this point. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent Edits

THis section was not changed since July, so I moved it into the archive. WLU 20:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Minor Quibble

A discussion of TG work with marine and wildlife paintings that was never replied to, by Runch. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Fantasy Author or Novelist?

Took out an initial section that discussed why TG could be categorized as a fantasy author. Archived. Left in some other bits of continuing comment. 64.230.1.241 04:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

More Edits by Mystar

Mystar, aka IP 68.188.220.8, the recent edits made to the Terry Goodkind article were not vandalism. You can't revert them just because you didn't like the fact that the editor changed what you had initially written. In fact, reverting the edits in such a way IS considered vandalism. Look Mystar, I still firmly believe that you want to be a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, but it is obvious by your edit history that you just don't know how to go about doing so. I've looked at your contributions - and roughly 90% or more of them involve edits to Terry Goodkind and this talk page. If you're ever going to learn Misplaced Pages protocol and etiquette, I urge you to branch out. Look at other articles. Read help pages. Contribute and be involved in more than one topic. For starters, I'd suggest looking at some of these pages: • Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset - A simple rule book for new editors • Misplaced Pages:Vandalism - Defines what is and what is not vandalism • Help:Reverting - Lets you know when to use the revert function • Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot - Tips on how to discuss issues on talk pages • Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles - PLEASE read this help page. It is very pertinent to you. In addition, you may want to look at some articles on authors that have reached featured article status. Although Terry Goodkind is unique, looking at some of these articles may help you understand the direction in which we want to move for the article on Goodkind. Examples: Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Douglas Adams, to name a few. I hope you actually do take the time to look into some (or all) of the pages I have pointed out to you. They may help you become less possessive of this particular page on Goodkind, and I'm sure expanding your horizons will help you become a better Wikipedian. Sincerely, Runch 03:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Most of the edit in question that mystar reverted was indeed not vandalism, but it did add a few rather dubious things in the article which I have now attempted to correct. Firstly, there is the "essential sense of the word " thing - it is already inside a direct quote from TG, I see no reason for additional quote marks, nor do I understand what the "sic" is doing there. Secondly, the "though how this differs from any other novel is uncertain" or something to that extent; I don't think sarcastic commentary belongs in a Misplaced Pages article. If we are to discuss the credibility of Goodkind's statements, which I do not think is the intention of this article anyway, then surely we can find a more elegant way than just adding comments of that kind inbetween the quotations. I would assume that with those edits made, mystar has no further reason to revert as the rest of that edit seemed good. Paul Willocx 13:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Yes, I agree, thanks for your revisions. - Runch 14:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC) sic was there because he said 'word' when it refers to two words - fantasy author. 198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Would all of you kindly stop referring to me as "Wilcox"? Thank you. Paul Willocx 18:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

The edit warring on this page really has gotten to the point where it needs to be dealt with. I'd like to draw everyone's attention to: Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. Steps one and two (discussion and trying to "wait out the war") have proved ineffective, so at this point I'm going to make a request for informal mediation. If that proves ineffective in stopping the problems, I'm going to make a request for a formal mediation session. Should both of those steps prove ineffective, I will request arbitration, although I hope it need not come to that. Regardless of the way, I hope to finally put an end to this conflict. - Runch 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC) Sounds reasonable.198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC) As an outside observer and someone who has not invested any real time editing the TG article it would seem you are already at the point of needing moderation. Mystar is admittedly acting as Terry Goodkind's mouth piece and has taken the position of doing what ever it takes to change this article into what he and TG want it to be, breaking several rules along the way despite repeated warnings from some very patient editors. This is not TG's article, it is everybody's artilce about TG. NeoFreak 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC) I'll give the informal mediators a couple of days to see if they can help, but yes, I do forsee myself having to make a formal request for moderation or arbitration in the near future. - Runch 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC) 
I would think an immediate stop to all edits and a request for an admin to temp lock the article would be best. While no one is 100% happy with the article it won't kill anybody to leave it as is for a day or two until the mediation can begin. NeoFreak 21:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

References

I made some additions to the article, I think they really help out with the lingering NPOV issues. Anyway, we'll see if the edits stand up to the test of time. What I need help with is the references. For some reasons, they are appearing with the wrong numbers and some are appearing twice in the References section at the bottom of the article. I can't figure out what's wrong with them, maybe someone else can see what I did wrong? (The weirdest part is that they look perfectly fine in the preview, but in the actual save they go crazy. Go figure...) - Runch 19:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC) They look fine to me; the numbers match the sources used, and I don't see any appearing twice at the bottom. Where specifically do you see trouble? Brendan Moody 19:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC) Strange, maybe it's a problem with my browser or my cache. For example, the first reference appears as an instead of a . But as long as it looks right to everyone else, I don't have any problem with it. If anyone else sees it appearing strangely, then I'll go back to worrying about it. Thanks though, Runch 19:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Archive

198.96.2.93 added an archive box and removed a bunch of today's discussion but did not move it to an archive page. I've reverted that change and archived less recent material that doesn't seem relevant to the current disputes. If any user thinks some of the archived material should stay on this page, I invite them to restore it. The page is still pretty long, but given the ongoing issues I don't think further archiving is desirable. Brendan Moody 19:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Official Moderation

Mystar, I repeat NeoFreak's question: Since informal moderation will most certainly not bring an end to this conflict, are you willing to take part in an offical mediation session? The decision is yours, but if you refuse to take part in an official mediation (as is your right), then I will make a request for arbitration. The arbitration is decided by the Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee, and their decision is final. This could include, but is not limited to, making changes to the article that neither of us wants, or having one or more Misplaced Pages editors banned from editing for an unspecified period of time. I will expect your reply within 48 hours, and I will make no changed to the TG article until then. If I do not hear back from you, I will assume you are unwilling to participate, and I will request arbitration. - Runch 20:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I second this. I really hope that Mystar is willing to engage in some mature dialouge about this through a mediation and it doesn't have to go to the level of an arbitration. If it does though I will support that as well as there will be no other choice. NeoFreak 20:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I too would like to see Mystar, and also 198.96.2.93, participate in mediation. There's been too much edit warring in the article, and we need to have a civil discussion about various issues and come to a consensus so that a stable, mutually agreeable article will be produced. Brendan Moody 20:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I am not here to pull strings or whatever it is called. I am just describing what I have read in this talk page. Mystar has been backed into a corner when he is right, and I have wiki-standard's to back that claim. As new to wiki as I am ( I just found the tilda signature thing today) I can't believe I am the one to cite this: Biographies of living persons. Jimmy Wales has said: "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons." Without knowing it, Mystar has been adhering to this policy, and the Biographies of living persons standard. I would like to draw you're attention to the fact that in the face of unsourced, or poorly sourced, negative edits, the subject of the article or someone editing on their behalf has the weight when the matter is brought up. Now, here is the problem, there are not very many acceptable, professional grade sources to base a biographical page on this living person as he maintains a certain level of privacy. "Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist..." Many of the edits not started by Mystar, which he has reverted, have the quality of trying to sensationalize mistaken and error information using mis-quotes and half-truths that are not viable tender in an encyclopedic environment. If you get you're facts right, Mystar will not challenge it. Remember, this is an article about a living person and as such you need to tread very cautiously when editing it because the subject of the article DOES have weight against what is said about them. While it discourages subjects from contributing, it does encourage subjects to correct erronious information and remove libel or insulting commentation that is not properly sourced. In this, Mystar has done nothing wrong, and has been doing things by the book. I suggest everyone review Biographies of living persons and make sure you have reviewed it, know it and understand it before you make a single post more. You can be sure that Official Moderation will go into this. Omnilord 01:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC) I'm very excited that you are persuing a constructive discussion Omnilord! This is exactly what belongs here. To start out I am familiar with the guidlines and rules dictating biographical articles on living persons. The message Jimbo was trying to convey is that all speculation and POV entires are to be deleted and not just tagged with a "". The three principl rules to govern any bio artilce (and really most others for that matter) are • Verifiability • Neutral point of view • No original research as is clearly labeled at the beginning of the referenced article. This is the point that the other editors and myself have been trying to drive home. Editor's opinions of Goodkind, his work or his stance on any issue are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. The refrencing of an outside or third party's opinion if it is relavent and citable is allowed. This current situation we find ourselves is in fact covered in Biographies of living persons and is repeated for ease of review here: "Well-founded complaints about biographical articles from their subjects arrive daily in the form of e-mails to the Misplaced Pages contact address, phone calls to the Foundation headquarters and to Jimbo Wales, and via postal mail. These people are justifiably upset when they find inaccurate or distorted articles, and the successful resolution of such complaints is a touchy matter requiring ongoing involvement of OTRS volunteers and paid staff." "Frequently the problem is compounded when the subject attempts to edit their own article to remove problematic content. Since such people may not be regular Wikipedians, they are unaware of our policies, and are often accused of vandalism or revert warring when they are in fact trying to edit in good faith." It further covers that all biogrpahies of living persons should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Concerning material that is defamitory to a living person (of which I have seen none) is covered quite simply as "Unverified material that could be construed as critical, negative or harmful in articles about living persons should be removed immediately, and should not be moved to the talk page. The same applies to sections dealing with living persons in other articles. Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia." This covers material such as "Many people think that Terry Goodkind likes to eat babies" or "Terry Goodkind is rumored to smell bad". This does not cover critacal review of his works. This also does not cover a group's opinion about him if it can be cited and is relavent as covered in Reliable Sources. 
Please see my comments below and review main page the edit history, again. NeoFreak 01:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I would be interested in participating in official moderation for this entry. 198.96.2.93 13:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I just wanted to notify everyone that I have filed a request for help from an official moderator, you can all view the request here. Everyone who was previously involved in discussion on this page and explicitly expressed interest in being involved in such moderation has been notified on their individual talk pages - please be sure to sign the request within the next 7 days. Also, read the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request - if you have additional issues, add them in the "Additional issues to be mediated" section. I want to make sure that everyone knows that moderation is a slow process, it will take time. Really though, all it is is having an additional cool head (belonging to a neutral party) involved in the discussion about how to improve the article. Specifically, we'll be addressing the issues listed in the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request. On a side note, I'd like to thank everyone for their efforts. I think that in the last 24 hours or so, everyone has been acting in a much more civilized and constructive manner. I like the fact that we're now placing proposed changes to the article at the bottom of this discussion page. Let's not forget that the moderator will only be here to help us - we can still try and write this article collectively on our own. We're finally getting somewhere, people, let's keep it up! - Runch 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Temporary stop to all edits

This aritlce is again on the verge of an edit/revert war and that helps nobody. I would ask that all parties please stop editing until an offical mediation or arbitration can be completed and a consensus can be reached on this article. NeoFreak 20:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I'd like to remind everyone to keep in mind the need for civility in a stressful discussion like this one. I've seen recent comments from both "sides" that have been insensitive or rude. Regardless of how you feel those who disagree with you have behaved, please be as polite as possible and avoid further escalation. Thanks. Brendan Moody 17:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC) 
I've touched up some wording to reduce the level of bias as well as correct some factual errors in the bio section, namely that all his books are bestsellers. Having examined a number of archives, most especially the NYT bestseller archive provided by Hawes(now listed in references), I've found that all but two are on the list, and thus corrected the statement to appear as such. -Kedlav I don't really have a problem with the neutrality or tone of this article in a siginficant way any more. If no one else objects or still has an issue than I say we remove the POV template and resume some editing. The few edits that have been done in the past 24 hours are good edits and if that kind of thing continues I don't see any more big problems here. It's really looking alot better. NeoFreak 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC) Sounds good to me. - Runch 22:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Notice regarding solicited participation

It has recently come to my attention that Mystar has been soliciting other Goodkind fans to participate in the discussion here. It is an official policy of Misplaced Pages that such advertising is considered highly inappropriate, and that participation only to further an individual agenda (rather than to improve the whole encyclopedia) is strongly discouraged. For more information on the topic, please see this page, which details the nature of and reasons for the relevant policy. This warning applies equally to anyone who comes here from Westeros.org or any other message board containing anti-Goodkind sentiment. This dispute has gotten large enough as it is, and the best way to resolve it is through participation from more experienced Wikipedians. Thank you for your understanding. Brendan Moody 03:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) 
in keeping with your advise/suggestion I have altered some wording to assure all parties involved that this is not happening. If anyone were to look about Misplaced Pages has been a bone of contention for ages. Asking for input and advise is not the same thing as asking fan's to participate. I expressly ask for no partipication, any kind of posting or any kind of action from any Goodkind fan's....only input. mystarMystar 04:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) Given the circumstances, I'm not sure it's such a bad thing, though I hope Omnilord will also contribute to other pages, the SoT-related ones if nothing else... actually, I just looked at his contribs, and it seems he has already done so in the past, and he had an account long before he interfered in the debate here. You might be talking about other people, who haven't posted here (yet), I suppose. Paul Willocx 09:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I've been on and off revising the articles related to terry goodkind since february. In fact all are in my watchlist. I've not been as active as maybe I should have been but other matters have been foremost in my attention, and Mystar has had (and still does have) my full confidence that he would handle matters adequately. I have also tried to just look in at least once every seven days just to be sure there hasn't been any new vandalism. Even though I am still adjusting to my new job and schedule, I will still try to make contributions toward this, I don't want to see anyone screwing up the facts when it comes to this particular subject matter. Omnilord 21:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Since we have the edit stop, a list of proposed changes

We can always make a list here of suggested changes that can be implemented after we end the edit stop, if there should be consensus (by which I also mean mystar and Omnilord) about them. I would suggest that people add their suggested changes here instead of in the article itself, but it seems the only people changing the article now are anons or users not involved in the talk page, so it seems unlikely that they'd read this. Oh well. So far I see two proposed changes: firstly, under "Influence", the sentence "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, reached number one on the New York Times Best Seller list, a feat which none of his previous novels had yet to achieve" is incorrect, so it is suggested to put "had achieved" instead. Secondly, anon sees POV in the same sentence, and wants to remove the words "feat" and "achieve", to be replaced by something like "a first for the author". Paul Willocx 10:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

All of Mr. Goodkind's books, with the exceptions of Stone of Tears and Wizard's First Rule have appeared on the New York Times Bestseller List.. -- proposed by Kedlav Paul Willocx 10:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

A minor, non-controversial edit: Add the link Legends (book) to the anthology Legends. - Runch 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Arbor makes another suggestion for that grammatical error: "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, is his first to have reached number one" etc. Arbor also suggests cutting the lines starting with "Although Goodkind" and ending on "is a little extreme", and I for one am inclined to agree. Paul Willocx 21:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Facts vs. Opinions

In all this discussion, it's hard to try and decipher what other people are thinking. Therefore, I'd like to post how I think we should deal with the mixture of facts and opinions that will undoubtedly comprise the "final draft" so to speak of the article. Part 1 - Facts: All pertinent facts should be included. For example, the Biography section should be nothing but facts. (ie. Goodkind has worked as a carpenter, a violinmaker, and a restorer of rare and exotic artifacts and antiques). Mostly facts are data. However, let me point out that some quotations can be facts as well. If Mr. Goodkind makes the statement "I am an Objectivist", then that is a fact - he, after all, would be the ultimate authority on the matter of his own beliefs. Sounds fine to me, as long as it is just facts, see huge post below, "My beefs" Part 2 - Opinions: Opinions are a crucial part of critical commentary, whether they are Mr. Goodkind's opinions or anyone else's. For example, let's say we have the quote by Goodkind stating that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy". This is an opinion, but it is important to the article. A critical commentary would then play out like this (just an example mind you): • Mr. Goodkind stated that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy" • Joe Reviewer 1 also believes that his novels have changed the face of fantasy • Joe Reviewer cites the heavy focus on philosophy and Objectivism as his reasons • Bill Reviewer 2 agrees with Joe Reviewer, but for different reasons • Bill Reviewer cites hordes of fans saying that the series is "wicked sweet" • John Reviewer 3 disagrees with the statement • John Reviewer 3 cites similarities to other fantasy novels, and previous novels with objectivist ties And that would be all we'd include. There wouldn't be any conclusions (so this would be different from your typical high school English essay), because conclusions would merely be our (the editors) opinions and would also fall under the category of original research. Anyway, that's how I was hoping to proceed with the article. Comments? Questions? - Runch 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC) As long as there can be opinions to balance out TG's. Right now it is a lot of his, and a slow, hard-fought addition of other opinions. I think it's gradually improving though, which is good. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC) I now have a userid, I'll see if I can figure out updating it for arbitration and whatnot. Formerly 198.96.2.93, WLU 18:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC) I think one of the best ways to clear up POV on this article is to include a "Quotes" section and move review and "Themes" sections to the Sword of Truth page. This is one way to seperate critical review of his works without giving the impression that negative views of his works are directed against his person. Thoughts? NeoFreak 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Good point. Paul Willocx 13:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC) I agree that moving any discussion of the Sword of Truth to the SoT page would make sense, but it won't change that there will still be the issues I pointed out. What I'm really trying to gage is, how do we deal with pertinent discussions (Read:opinions!) about the SoT? Is there a place for them at all in an encyclopedia, regardless of who the opinions belong to? - Runch 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

My Beefs (shortened)

Anyone wants the longer version, it's archived. 1) TG is best known as a novelist, the link that stated he was best known as a realistic painter does not actually say this. 2) All novels have been bestsellers is currently a work in progress 3) not super relevant 4) Phantom is a best seller - needs a references other than a weblog 5) TG's books are fantasy, in my opinion and I'm backed up by amazon, but there is debate 6) As 5 pretty much 7) As 5 again 8) As 5 9) There's a quote about him writing to inspire 2) Yeah, we do actually. But there's an edit stop. 4) Phantom did make #1, and if that isn't a criterium for being a bestseller, what is? 6) I don't know, I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with him, and I thought he put it in a much better and less offensive way there. 8) Yeah, don't think we'd be doing Mr Goodkind a service by leaving it there. Paul Willocx 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1) Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he has taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source is the subject of the biography. If you can't cite it then you can't include it. Unless there is a viewable citable statement it is word of mouth and WP:OR NeoFreak 6) The online chat in question was not just a chat between people, but was a Q&A session with the author via IRC. Not only was this an official function jointly of terrygoodkind.com and terrygoodkind.net, it was a rare opportunity for many fans from around the world to be able to communicate as close to in person as possible at the time because Terry was not doing a signing tour. Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages. Did he say it? Is is citable? Is it relavent to the subject? If the answer to these three questions is yes, and I believe it is, then it can be included. NeoFreak 7) What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself. If the source is not reliabe then, yes, it needs to go. NeoFreak 8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in this article, but would never be allowable on The Sword of Truth article. Omnilord 01:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC) As it is citable and relevent to the SoT series than it belongs on the SoT page. NeoFreak 01:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

FOR MODERATION REVIEW

okay, since people insist on editing, I think we should go ahead with agreeable grammar, spelling, and very basic edits that have been proposed so far, and just create a list of reversion points here for moderation to review.

No new information should be added and nothing should be removed until moderation however.

• ] - the preserved revision at time of stopped editing.

I've already said this a half dozen times in a half dozen places. The edit stop was requested by me and I am not an admin. This is not an enforceable stop and if other editors wish to be rude about then you can't revert their edits on these grounds alone. On a side note though I thought the anon's last edit was good as the "rather extreme" comment was out of line and POV. NeoFreak 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Neofreak about edits in general - we need not revert everything, only significant changes that involve article themes and POV statements. And I also though the removal of the "rather extreme" comment was justified, it is POV (and I'm the one who put that in in the first place! But I've seen the error of my ways, so to speak, since then, so I'd like to retract that edit if possible.) - Runch 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited a few POV positions. Can we start from there? What we have now is nuteral and unbiased. That should satisfy everyoneMystar 05:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well on another note your edits to the SoT page are looking really good.NeoFreak 22:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it certainly is, but there might have been parts in what you cut that didn't have to go. Guess we can carefully restart from how it is now, though... Paul Willocx 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WLU replies to comments

Here are replies to PW's comments. >"Best known" doesn't necessarily mean he was famous for them... though I guess rephrasing it won't do any harm.

-The link just says he painted wildlife and marine, as part of a list of other jobs he did. Let's let the page show the same thing.

>We actually do seem to have a source, but it hasn't been put into the article due to the edit stop. The source says all books but the first two made it onto the NYT's list.

-I checked the NYT bestsellers list for a couple months. Chainfire was on it in 2005, here's the link - http://www.hawes.com/2005/0502.htm, I recommend splicing it into the page. If someone (i.e. whoever thinks it is important that this be on the page) wants to do this for all the books, all the power to them, I don't want to make the time.

>how does it contradict it? All but two books made it onto the NYT's list, but only Phantom topped it. Not sure what defines a "bestseller", but I'd say making it onto the #1 list on the NYT isn't bad.

-Good point. The definition should be obvious from the text - "Numerous of the books have made it onto the NYT bsl, and Phantom reached #1 as of xxxx" seems like the most accurate way of putting it.

>I don't know, I was a great deal more happy with this quote after I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with Goodkind, in which he phrases it differently

So there's a link to the blog or interview, but I was thinking that all the quotations could be put in wikiquotes, - no context to judge, just TG's words. Very objective, I think (ha!). Take them off the page but put in a link to wikiquotes.

Here are replies to Omnilord's comments >Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he has taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source is the subject of the biography.

-Yeah, my beef isn't with that per se, it's the 'best known for', which I've seen no evidence for, just a list of jobs. Put marine-wildlife artist in that list, not 'best as'. One of many, not the most important. The source given doesn't say anything about 'best of', so unless TG decides to edit his own page to reflect this, we don't have a source, and at that point it becomes pretty much unusable because it is TG's judgement about his own work. We need something outside of terrygoodkind.net, .org, .whatever, we need something independent.

>Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages.

-Take it out, put it in wikiquotes

>What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself.

-The amazon link shows that other people, notably book vendors, consider his books fantasy. TG says it isn't, if we put that in, I think we can put in people who think he is. I think amazon is a great source for this because they are neutral, and sell to the public - they market the books to people who buy fantasy. They aren't putting them in the philosophy section, because philosophers would read them and freak out. Fantasy readers do not 'cause they've got swords, magic, dragons, no computers, etc. I can't really think of a way of getting around the changing nature of Amazon, but something less know but more stable could work. Other on-line vendors who's pages don't flip all the time? The page I originally linked to categorized the book and it was in SF/F>F>High Fantasy and several other categories that started with fantasy.

>8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in this article, but would never be allowable on The Sword of Truth article.

-I think changed the face of fantasy and his goals could both be in wikiquotes with a link, perhaps to a statement "TG feels very strongly about his works and defended them in interviews and during on-line chats" or essays, I don't know the original source. It's got an encyclopedic summary, it's got a link to quotes, but it doesn't have the page-biasing impact that the words themselves do. It says more about him than it does his opinions on his work. I think they would be valuable on a "What TG thinks of his own novels" page or such the like, but not raw in the text. Plus, I think that might be considered original research or such the like. Maybe not. I'd like the idea of a summary, but not so much the actual quotes in an already quote-heavy novel. Comparing his entry to Steven Erikson's (pardon my point of reference), SE is very short, has no quotes, but a very brief summary of his own opinion of what he's writing. I think it's comparable. Reference Terry Pratchett as well, also GRRM - pretty short on the author, but lots of links to their works.

Replies to mystar <WLU said> What makes it official? Do you have a reference from TOR? Since the other publishers do not send the numbers to TOR, we can't rely on TOR for a ceiling figure, but they'll definitley give a floor figure, or an accurate one for the US and Canada. <Mystar said>Well, as a fatter of mact, I do! I also have material from Goodkind, BUT, as I stated earlier, I am suggesting that we use the figure we have listed on .net & .com, as Terry is not going to make his royalty numbers public, and with good reason!

-If you have them, provide them please, and I'll stop picking at it. .net and .com are not proper sources. We need something from the company. I'd even be OK with the agent as long as we said it was from the agent, and that there are other figures (and links to both, and that the link that wasn't his agent, wasn't to terrygoodkind.net/.org). Also note that linking the page to the wiki page for TOR doesn't work - it'd have to be external, to a page on the TOR website that said "TG has sold more than 20 million" (but that would contradict the figure from the agent I think). Linking to the TOR wiki doesn't work because people can edit the page - no verifiable, and because even if it said on the page, 'sold 20 mill copies of TG books', that would need a reference. In which case, we put that original reference on the TG page. This is standard academic referencing, this is how it is done in universities, government, schools, any document that has to be relied on for veracity, and as far as I know, wiki requires it as well. Also, I just looked at what's on the page right now, and the 20 million link doesn't seem to go anywhere. If it does, it seems to go back to his private webpage again, which I still have objections to as stated in "art".

>Secondly WLU, I am going to ask politely that you take a less hostile tone with me. I stated the facts as they are. Call Tor if you wish, call Harper Collins UK and they will tell you not every publisher reports to them. If you don't like that, it is not my problem. I have source material that you are not privy to. So me I am free to make public, some I'm asked not to. I do think however that my well-known association with Goodkind' gives my points creditability. If you disagree, that's not my problem.

-I think I am being at most, curt. Not hostile. I'm trying to keep my points brief, and just include the things that I think are relevant to the question. Calling TOR and HCUK won't help, we need webpages. If you have source material, give it. If you can't, it is not referenced. I think your association with TG detracts from your credibility, it detracts from your neutrality and makes your actions very close to having TG hiimself editing the page, which there are recommendations about. Just is there is reason to distrust what I say too. I could easily say I called TOR and they said his sales figures were abysmal, no-one can check this except me, and someone else who calls TOR, and has the same problem of verification, which is why we need a 3rd party website. I'll try to moderate my tone while retaining brevity. I'd like to think I'm using the same brevity with other users, but I could be wrong.

>Ok, I see a pattern here already. WLU, if all you are going to do is to argue and attempt to shoot anything down, I have a problem with you. I already am of the mind you just jumped in to be a fly in the ointment on this situation. We have no knowledge of you other than popping up and jumping on this bandwagon, and as I stated it is already looking like you are here just to decry any information I offer.

-The peer review process works to improve the quality of submissions. I'm not shooting you down, I'm requesting valuable information that you say you have, and will do nothing but enhance the article. Please reply to my points, not to the brevity of my association with the userid WLU. The talk page is designed for discussion to improve the article itself.

>Goodkind being a well-known artist is a well-known fact. If you took the time to read any interviews (written, audio or otherwise), articles, Statements from Goodkind and the myriad of pictures I've posted of his works on the MB's you would not be asking that question. You will find various statements about Goodkind's work as an artist. All you have to do is to look. It is not incumbent upon me to proof out to you what we already know, just to please you.

-It is incumbent on you to provide proof, not to please me but to justify what you are posting and editing. That he has produced realistic paintings I could believe. That he is well known for them, I do not. Because I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere except here. The works themselves are not sufficient. Is there a different page we could talk this out on? I don't want to soak up more of TG discussion page. I think I have included an anonymous e-mail in my signup, so you could even talk to me via that address. If not, I might have my own page on wiki. The penguins link you provided is again to tg.net, is there a link to the gallery's website? A history of showings? A review by a newspaper? See NeoFreak's replies to your postings, I agree and would be repeating further if I discussed more.

>This "is" after all a page about Goodkind and what "he" is presenting. Not what you want his to present, but these are "his" books and as he has placed some specific situations and spend some amount of time crafting his work to show symbolism, that it becomes nessary that that fact be included as it would at that point be "encyclopedic" in nature. That being Goodkind is using it to make a point. It is not as you are trying to espouse "an inherently personal thing". It is in fact a part of what he is providing for the reader. Nothing It is a page about TG, not what he is presenting. If you want to, start a page on his symbolism. I won't comment on that, I would only edit for grammar and spelling. Possibly references, but that would also probably be considered original research. Symbolism is a characteristic of personal reality, see constructivist epistemology for more on this (if I managed to work the link).

>I am going to warn you NEO for your "accusatory manor" and attempting to make everything I say out to be an attack. I've made no attacks. I pointed out facts and personal attacks on me. Werthead, was infact making several Negitive and biased edits. I corrected them I disagree with you Mystar. I have found your posts to be very accusatory. I don't know if an arbitration will settle this or not, but I hope so. I am trying to improve as an editor, note that I have not insulted you, I have not called you names or accused you of anything except bias, which can also be said of me, and I've admitted it. I'm ignoring most of your posts because I don't really find them germane.

In summary - how about we put in general comments about what TG has said in the past, with counter-examples, link the general statements to wikiquotes where they can be retained in resplendent glory, someone who is motivated can find a specific link from each book to a NYT bestsellers list, a modification to his 'previous jobs' section to remove noteworthy re: paintings. Mystar can start a page about the symbolism and work with people who have read all the books in the series, as well as the major works of Ayn Rand, and show the objectivism links there. Everything subject to revision and adequate citation. I'll start with Chainfire. Comments? Please, if there is a better way to edit that's neater and more readable, please let me know. I'm doing this in a word processor and pasting it back into Talk:TG edit pages 'cause it's the only way I can do it coherently. If Mystar wants to discuss what should be a proper standard of proof with me on my own wikipage, I'll be happy to, or if I can figure out the e-mail thing. Apologies for length! Also, I archived a previous posting that was quite long, on fantasy author versus novelist.

Sorry, I forgot to sign in before adding my edits. WLU 18:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I'm not really following alot of that post, I'll have to reread it when I have some more time. About your purposed "counter-examples": this is not a place for a point, counter-point of TG's views. This is a biographical article that should contain the relavent material about him, not a place to argue about his views. This kind of thing is not only out of place but it can bring arguably justifiable complaints of POV. Leave the (as always relavent and citable) critical review of his works where it belongs: on those work's articles. NeoFreak 04:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Fantasy or not: a better quote (imho)

In that Lynn Flewelling interview, there is the following paragraph:

"I've always said fantasy is sort of 'stealth philosophy'," he explained. "It allows you to say things that sound very dramatic and get away with it. If you had characters in modern fiction say the same things as they're driving down the street in an Oldsmobile they'd sound ludicrous! Fantasy allows you bend the world and the situation to more clearly focus on the moral aspects of what's happening. In fantasy you can distill life down to the essence of your story."

Which, to me, sounds like a good explanation of Mr Goodkind's stance on the "fantasy or not" thing: he seems to say that it is fantasy, but that he uses fantasy as a tool to make his philosophy clearer, because in fantasy the situations are a bit more extreme, things are a bit more primitive, etc. So, what does everyone think of adding (part of) that paragraph? Given the controversy, I won't do it unless I get a go ahead from both WLU and Mystar, otherwise we're back to where we started. Paul Willocx 08:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I still think adding stuff to wikiquotes is a good way of addressing the quotation. If we take out everything about him saying he doesn't write fantasy and leave in that, I'd be happy. If there's anything in there saying explicitly that he does not write fantasy, I really think that it deserves a comment

As I've said all along I do not think WLU has any thing to add. He remains annon, and refuses to divulge his real identity, thus making anything he does fully suspect. Reading his contrib’s is like reading a blank book. We see his/her interest is in negative content and condemning everything positive about Goodkind. SO you'll excuse me if I do not have any faith in either asking for or using input from WLU. Perhaps IF WLU were to divulge his user name at ASOIAF it would go a ways into WLU's creditability.

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