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Factoid

With regard to a certain fiery event I would like to draw you attention to a factoid that may have escaped your attention... The eteostichon "LorD haVe MerCI Vpon Vs" (L+D+V+M+C+I+V+V=1666) has been used in connexion with that place & year though I can not to trace it to its origins (some further research might be appropriate). Hope you'll have use for it. Happy editing, or vacationing, or cursing us all, or whatever you are enjoying doing right now. Ha det så bra, as they say elsewhere... 87.122.7.200 19:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think the source for that was graffiti found on a wall during the plague, rather than the fire. It was a common enough thing for an age where the use of Latin was part of every educated person's baggage. Where, though, it entered modern currency is another matter. I, too, have encountered the reference. It's unlikely, therefore, that we can chalk it up to a ... nov.... Defoe? Journal of the Plague Year? Maybe that's the source. Geogre 20:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Dmitry Merezhkovsky's the Romance of Leonardo Da Vinci

As I lay there, my ears rattling with pain, somehow I still managed (when I got the lucid chance) to get half way through Dmitry Merezhkovsky's 500-page (how was I even able to carry it — well, thanks to my gentle care, it's now physically split into a few pieces, that's 1953 hardcover for ya!; I would have actually prefered softness under these circumstances) the Romance of Leonardo Da Vinci (oddly, the Hebrew translation I have is only titled Leonardo Da Vinci). Have you read it, Bishongeogre? Best, El_C 06:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Your ears are going to hurt some more today, dear Elsie. :-( Bishonen | talk 09:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Grbrr. ElC is an abbreviation for El Commandante!; and you haven't answered the question! :( El_C 10:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, have I read an actual book? Of course not. What do you think the Internet is for? Bishonen | talk 10:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Why must you mock me, again. :( El_C 10:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Check out my wikimood. It compels me. Bishonen | talk 10:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Yet he was red-baiting enough to support Hitler. Fucking idiot; traitor of the masses. Brilliant author, nonetheless. El_C 11:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Awesomeness Barnstar

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		Awarded to Bishonen for being the most consistent, thoughtful, sensible and levelheaded person I've encountered on WP. Anchoress 09:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Great Scott! Me? And here I feel like I'm spending more and more of my wikitime in a flap and a rage...! Thank you very much. Bishonen | talk 09:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Pffft, trifling. I noticed you didn't do a flounce, you just took a break. Besides, you on a bad day are better than most editors on an average day. IMO. Anchoress 09:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha, how about now? Eh? Bishonen | talk 10:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh yeah, you're outta control. 'Remove the Barnstar of Diligence; Attach the Barnstar of Intransigence!' Anchoress 10:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Your email

Yes, I did. Sorry for not replying, I am always useless at responding to Misplaced Pages emails. It's a bit of a crap situation for everyone concerned. I've been away from Misplaced Pages more or less for a few months and my first impression when I got back into it the other day was how angry so many people were... I'm starting to feel old with all these new admins running around slapping people down. The Land 09:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice till now that you removed Daniel Bryant's original expression of his problem with my language use (Profanity? Profanity ? Fucking is a religion now?) in the form of a template. Cripes, what a low point. Thank you, The Land, for saving my eyes from beholding it. Bishonen | talk 19:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

You can delete this if you want.

		The Surreal Barnstar
		I hereby award you, Bishonen, the FuckWITtery Barnstar, for chutzpah in the face of asshattery. Anchoress 10:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

		The Surreal Barnstar
		I hereby award you, Bishonen, the Flapdoodle Barnstar, for chutzpah in the face of .. well... everything. The Land 10:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope this is considered "non-provacative"...

Please do not add profanities to WP:AN/I. I, in particular, find such language to to be offensive. Feel free to remove this comment if you change your use of certain phrases, such as f***wittery on WP:AN/I. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant 10:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not censored for the protection of minors. El_C 10:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

"Words and images that might be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by other Misplaced Pages readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available." I'm sure there is a number of alternatives to the term used by Bishonen. Also, that only refers directly to the article namespace - "Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements.". Daniel.Bryant 10:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Daniel, on the assumption that you really mind it, as opposed to merely looking for things to complain about, I will exchange if for some suggestion by wordsmyth.net. Bishonen | talk 10:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Thank you. Feel free to scourge this section from your page as you see fit. Daniel.Bryant 10:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop giving me permission to remove your comments. Do you really not see that that's provocative, in a discussion where my contention is that I can do as I please about that? Think about it. Btw, I don't habitually remove stuff from my page by any means. It takes a lot of inappropriateness before I'll do that. Bishonen | talk 10:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

I thought, from your comments, that you were the deletionist type. Sorry about the confusion. Daniel.Bryant 10:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I had a good laugh at fu*kwittery myself ;). Marskell 11:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

EE

Okay, sorry to bother you about this again (I'm sure you're as sick to death of this situation as I am), but EE's returned and is again edit warring at Cool (song) and quarreling on the related talk page. He first parachuted into the talk page yesterday claiming to be three different editors, none of whom were EE (really, how many Gwen Stefani/Shakira/Legend of Zelda fans edit Misplaced Pages?); having his bluff called, he's now gone back to reverting edits that I've justified and explained to death on the talk page (including rewriting his hopelessly ornate prose - apparently, according to him, "reminisces about" is preferable to "remembers"). I was wondering if this type of behaviour was covered by the ArbCom ruling on him, because I'm considering leaving a report at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement, but I'm not sure how these things work. Thanks. Extraordinary Machine 10:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Certainly it's covered. Amply. IMO you should ban him from the pages he disrupts, and then report on the enforcement page that you have done so. I suggest banning for two days, since it says "a week in case of repeat offenses" (a strangely feeble time indication, which sounds as if it's meant for blocks rather than bans). Don't forget to ban from the talk pages also, otherwise you might as well just semiprotect the articles. Now, to ban from a page means, as you know, to tell an editor that they're not allowed to edit it. I realize the problem there, since it's a cloud of IPs that needs to be told, but you'll just have to post a message on the talkpages of the IPs involved so far (obviously, there's no need to check whether each of the IPs has separately been disruptive, it's disruption by the individual that's at issue). And why not reinforce it by posting the message on the article talkpages also. Then report on the enforcement page. Then, if/when you find that the ban isn't respected, report that, semiprotect the articles, consider whether to semiprotect the talkpages also (but that is a very, very, awkward thing to have to do) or merely keep reverting the editor, and do what you can to block him, because that is also what a ban means: if it's not respected, you block. If you're not savvy with range blocks, appeal to the arbcom to help, ask them how long the block can be, post an appeal for range blocking or other clever technical solution on ANI, and ask somebody like Mackensen or Essjay directly.

Sorry to be telling you what to do it rather than do it myself, but I'm not dealing with Hollow Wilerding any more. I'm tired of it, I have better things to do, and it's not like my previous efforts have been appreciated. I don't need telling twice that I've "taunted" a sensitive user, or to have my friends threatened with banning for trying to help. It's somebody else's turn. (Don't you get involved than you can help, either, EM—just try to protect the pages you care about, that's what I think is worth doing.) Grrr, somebody award me a barnstar of self-pity, quickly! Bishonen | talk 12:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

(The Canadian school year began today or yesterday, and EE, who said he might come back in September, shows up in full plumage at the school library. Another academic year of fun and games. If we get the IP's, we can go straight to the librarian. This child is a mess. Geogre 12:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC) )

Thanks for responding. I completely understand that you're not going to deal with HW anymore; I'd do the same myself, but unfortunately we both worked on that specific article quite a bit. (Long story short: there was a big dispute involving myself and EE/Winnermario regarding the coverage of pop music on Misplaced Pages; I helped "save" the article from imminent FAC failure as my way of extending an "olive branch" to WM, and that gesture turned around and bit me soon enough.) Anyway, I thought I was too close to the dispute to place a ban myself, so I posted on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement, and Bunchofgrapes has done it. I disagree with the idea of banning - or "cautioning" or otherwise - Giano for what he said to EE; his remark seemed rather harmless, particularly given the circumstances. I don't want a good editor like you to feel stressed, so here's a Zen Garden Award in honour of your "extraordinary patience in the face of toil or turmoil". This is well and truly deserved. Extraordinary Machine 13:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

ALoan

I've been out for a couple of hours, flicking arownd the watchlist, it looks like ALoan has done a runner in disgust with the Arb-com. Has he? of have I got the wrong end of the goat. I can't stand the thought of a wikipedia without ALoan, he's like you and Geogre - part of the furniture. I'm berieved, we are all bereived tell me , please, I have it wrong. Giano | talk 12:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you have it right. :-( I hope he'll be back. You know he was very, and uncharacteristically, angry about the proposed ban of you in the EE case, too. And notice the dickish commentary about him on the RFA talkpage, by people who don't know him? I just told Werdna on IRC... well, never mind what I told him, maybe I'll post it on the wiki as well, but I have to go out now. Bishonen | talk 13:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

I did see the comments about him by by some people who do not know him, and forced myself for once not to press save, otherwise i probably would have been banned for obscenities. his email won't work either. This is terrible. BTW is that D Bryant allowed to keep fiddling with my archives, because he's changed his mind over his daft template, I though people were not supposed to tamper with archives. Can I revert him? Anyhow I'm now more upset about ALoan than anyhthing else since Giano | talk 13:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I suppose you can revert him, but it would be pretty ungracious. All he's doing, that I can see, is removing stuff he posted himself—striking through it, so that the archive is still complete, and still contains everything that was posted on your page—and apologising. I wouldn't revert that if I were you. On the other hand, if I've missed him messing with anybody else's posts (=yours), then, yes, it would be appropriate to revert. Bishonen | talk 16:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

• If I want to be iformed at all, I need to come here. Another example of how badly uniformed I am: I didn't even know he was that upset. ALoan is one of the cornerstones of the serious content folks. Heck, he passed me in terms of contributions. For every one serious article I write, he has about four that are smaller and nimbler but as good. Geogre 17:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Informing: the discussion is mostly taking place at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship. It has, of course, become poisonous. If we blocked for genuine disruption, rather than for "defiant and inflammatory" responses, we should have considered blocking the 'crats before they could make this disruptive choice. I am another one of those who have been contemplating the ideas of turning in my bit or walking away. I recognize that I am currently too angry to make such decisions rationally, or do anything much useful at all. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Look I know I leave and come back ten minutes later, but that's cos I'm foreign and have a foreign temperament, you lot can't do that cos you're not foreign (well Bishonen is but she's from a rational race) and if you leave you might not come back - if you follow my logic, and that's why I'm upset about ALoan cos he's anglosaxon too like you yanks, allthough some of you do have funny surnames like that Monica Lewinski, but I always though she seemed a nice enough girl too Giano | talk 18:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You know how come I'm still here? I'm terribly uniformed. I don't look. If I close my eyes, put my fingers in my ears, and hum very loudly, I can pretend things are operating. Then, when I see this stuff, I can scream at the pinheads for being pinheads. I regret to say that I'll probably look at the talk:RFA, and I regret the regret I'm going to feel for looking. (Giano's Italian. You guys know what those people are like. We Anglo-Saxons are all cheerful and happy, and then we start dropping nuclear bombs while saying, "See what you made me do?") Geogre 18:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and you bombed Palermo! Have I ever told you about my Great Aunt Rosaria's wartime experience with a American GI? Giano | talk 18:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm of the bork bork bork people. We smoulder. Bishonen | talk 18:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

Yes dear quite, as I was saying this GI who was also a very close friend of my mother (chocolate and stockings were in short supply you see) well he was from Idaho, well isn't that an almost supernatural co-incidence, cos I'be always felt this eerie bond to BoG, and my first words were "Yes siree" which is unusual in a Sicilian baby - these things cannot be explained. Giano | talk 19:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well aren't you the chipper gentile today, Giano? I almost feel like rising to the bait and actually being so dense as to protest that I am from Oregon, but surely I wouldn't. In any case, I'm pretty sure I'm not your real father. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Only "pretty" sure I note - could there be a chance? If it's not you who is it —Giano | talk 21:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I can't keep up with all this. But it is all making me very depressed. Paul August ☎ 21:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why - are you from Idaho too? — Giano | talk 21:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh, it's Super Friends talk page blanking day. Mine is full of stuff, because I figure a real sign that I've left will be that no one will be able to tell the difference. Geogre 21:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

On second thoughts, moving this response down to where The Land may actually see it

The Land, I didn't notice till now that you removed Daniel Bryant's original expression of his problem with my language use ("Profanity"? "Profanity" ? Fucking is a religion now?) in the form of a template. Cripes, what a low point. Thank you, The Land, for saving my eyes from beholding it. Bishonen | talk 19:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

LOL. Yes, I saw it and thought that, while removing comments from him to you was moderately impolite, it would be much more impolite to make him clean up the bits of exploded Bishonen from the walls. ;-) The Land

User:Giano's talk page

I'm sorry but that level of extreme incivility is never excusable. I've reverted once, and will not do so again. I beg you not to restore that disgusting, petty, malicious message. --Tony Sidaway 22:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't edit war. Bishonen | talk 22:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC).

There is no policy that allows the removal of "personal attacks" without archiving them. In case no one has figured it out, yet, that idiotic "NPA" is at the heart of all of these crises. More fools are conned every day into believing that there is a policy that says that people are blocked or banned for saying impolite things, that they can redact each other over it, etc. User talk pages are the business of the users to tend, one way or the other. Geogre 01:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Lord, Tony, listen to yourself! "Extreme incivility, disgusting, petty, malicious"?! Oh, really? I'd hate to hear what you would call something that is actually disgusting and malicious. And even if it were, don't you remember what your mother told you? "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but incivility will never hurt you." I'll tell you what around here is really disgusting, petty, and malicious: Censorship, like you just did to did. Askolnick 02:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Can I just point out my beautiful banner in fact says: "may not receive respect they feel they deserve". "May" expresses no certainty, and "they feel" implies they will receive respect but perhaps will not be called Sir/madam or whatever it that is what they feel they deserve. Giano | talk 06:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've changed my banner now, because I am so frightened. Accusing me of "disgusting, petty, malicious message" Surely that is a personal attack on me, cos the meassage was not so. Can't he be banned for that? Giano | talk 08:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Most amusing, Giacomo. Hey, your long post on your own page—response to Askolnick etc—is absolutely great! Clarifies a lot of stuff beautifully. Bishonen | talk 08:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

Thanks Sweatheart, on the other matter pleasywaesyweedlingpleasy pretty please? Giano | talk 08:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

What other matter? Blocking Tony Sidaway..? You are kidding. You won't catch me blocking for personal attacks, even if that was one, which I doubt (see how it's an attack on your message, not on you?). I fully endorse Geogre's remarks about "that idiotic 'NPA'" above. Some people may think you're serious if you go on like that, you know! Bishonen | talk 08:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC). P.S., but if you're frightened, don't worry, dear, I'll protect you! Bishonen | talk 08:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

• What other matter? Bishonen!!!! My marriage proposal! Have you forgoten it already - I'm devestated. The pink solitaire, well I shall keep it now! Giano | talk 08:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• You'll have to take that up with Elsie, we're just setting the date. But if there's a vacancy in your harem, hmmm.... I have to admit I'm intrigued. Bishonen | talk 08:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

Oh him! The creature from the Fjiords (or whatever bogs are called in those parts) You don't want a honemoon in my Villa Splendido overlooking Como? Running your fingers trough my silkient chest wig that is up to you - I wash my hands of you. Giano | talk 09:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

ALoan II

Seen this It's quite humbling to read, and I'm not going to spoil the stark simplicity by posting underneath it, but I hope it's read and taken on board in many high ranking quarters of this encyclopedia. Giano | talk 11:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. If a naive and befuddled newcomer may be permitted an observation: the administrative war now raging against "incivility" reminds me of the Vietnam war general who explained the U.S. war strategy as "destroying the village to save it." The biggest threat to civility in Wikinam is not the hot-headed posts of angry editors. It's the cold, calculating intollerance of criticism and dissent. Just as the U.S. policy sought to label Vietnam nationalism as "communist expansionism," certain administrative warlords are attempting to label dissent and criticism as "incivility." If they continue, they just may save the village by destroying it.Askolnick 12:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well don't give up on the place, there are a lot of good admins here, who are in command of huge respect by not expecting it. The admins who hang out on this page for instance. Sadly people seem to be confusing brusqueness, and direct speaking for incivility, and a lot of people seem surprised when their own incivil or bizarre actions lead to incivility in response. It's a problem and it's not going away. Incidentally if you are new, you won't know that ALoan is in my view one of Misplaced Pages's most respected editors because of his contributions and impecable manners. Giano | talk 12:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If I may butt in, I've been thinking about this issue recently too, and I think in part it can be attributed to the phenomenon of the cure causing more of the disease, or rather the remedy causing more of the problem. The same way that a 1-800 number at a vacuum company will prompt way more people to call for help instead of reading the manual, and that some people believe bar brawls and shootings outside nightclubs would decrease if cities reduced police patrols and instead paid people to hand out free flowers at closing time, I think admin intervention (of a certain type) is escalating the incivility and conflict. Perhaps there should be a civility patrol, of people who are especially gentle souls, who can post genial, non-threatening warnings/suggestions on the talk pages of people who have been accused of incivility; the lack of 'threat' associated with a warning from an admin might de-escalate as well as, but less invasively than, the cooldown blocks currently in use.

But in fact I think the problem is bigger, and regrettably I think it's because of the way the site is run. I'm not a dictator, but I think the lack of hard-and-fast regulations makes it very stressful for the people who shoulder the responsibility of helping the site run smoothly. I've seen many instances here recently (and I've seen this a lot in RL too) where people with authority and responsibility, or even just a sense of responsibility come to the community and say something isn't working, and 'the community' says in its wisdom that no, it is working, everyone (like Animal Farm) just has to work harder, but it is in fact the ones asking for a change who are doing all the work. I see this most blatantly over requests to lock pages due to vandalism. There are a lot of people who just get fed up with WP because they can't stand to watch vandalism happen without doing something about it, but they're too pooped to keep up with aggressive cells. IMO there are several key deficiencies in the way the community is run that are directly causing burnout, and I'm not trying to deflect responsibility from the admins people have been discussing, but I think the recent behaviour is, if not burnout, a result of a deficiency in the community's order. Anchoress 12:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Giano. What really gets me is the hypocricy of the administrative warlords whose censorship and threats are anything but civil. Have they no capacity for self-inspection? Or is the enforcement of civility just a guise for self-aggrandizement or power grabbing? Askolnick 12:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

YES!!!!! Bishonen | talk 12:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

• <conflict>::::* I think Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is probably the place to continue this discussion, but the way things are at the moment we will probably all be banned, so I'm shutting up (a new experience for me). Giano | talk 13:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

From the perspective of a long-time journalist, if this fight continues to escalate, it will soon get the attention of reporters who cover science, education, the Internet, and the media. Wiki's problems have already drawn much news coverage. It seems to me that Wiki's Civil(ity) War is going to be the next headline maker. Askolnick 13:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Carnildo got promoted anyway? That's insane! Everyone else needs 75-80% approval. I guess you don't if two members of ArbCom vote for you. To promote him anyway is not simply a question of changing the goalposts, but intentionally throwing scorn on an enormous number of people who voted against him. It's not just a reward for him: it's a statement that the others should not be heard. It may indeed be time for a no confidence motion or for leaving. Geogre 17:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't know? I tried to inform you, up there somewhere yesterday. ALoan's latest written statements mirror my thoughts well enough. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)