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China Unassessed

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Older discussions

Please explain whether Chinese reunification means:

1. incorporating Taiwan into Communist China; or,
2. establishing a new country out of China and Taiwan

If the article is about the first alternative, it should mention what changes Taiwanese worry may result, if their island is incorporated by the mainland government. Would they lose freedom of religion, freedom of speech, the ability to travel abroad or even emigrate?

If the article is about the second alternative, it should clarify what sort of government the new nation will be: democracy, or dictatorship, or what?

--Uncle Ed 14:33, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

None of this is clear. It depends on who "wins" or when reunification happens. The PRC would like the first option. Actually, the government advocated implementing one country, two systems, but would also allow Taiwan to keep its own military. The unificationists on Taiwan would either like to (eventually) have the mainland reincoporated by the ROC (unlikely) or have them form a joint democratic government. --Jiang 21:02, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Chinese reunification is often stereotyped as being the ideology of the Mainlander community on Taiwan, although there are many non-Mainlanders who support reunification and many Mainlanders who oppose it. In addition, the parties which do support reunification often command considerable support for reasons that have nothing to do with cross-strait relations. This is doubletalk. Who finances these 'unification' parties? Are there in fact more than one? What are the polls actually telling us? Why would non-Mainlanders want to follow the fate of Hong Kong? Wetman 12:51, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't see your point about doubletalk. The unificationist parties make up the Pan-Blue Coalition.

According to the Taiwan independence article, "Opinion polls suggest that between 70 to 80 percent of Taiwanese support the 'status quo' which is to leave Taiwan's status exactly the way that it is." While the majority is not in support of independence, One country, two systems has only 10% support with the population, so few unificationists (most notably Li Ao) advocate reuniting with the mainland under that system. Instead, they stress breaking down barriers with the mainland, such as opening the three links and promoting the sovereignty of the Republic of China. For example, in the last elections James Soong proposed a non-agression pact along with an EU-style trade relationship with the mainland. Some unification politicans also express harsh rhetoric against the PRC, and would like to see the ROC back in the UN, establishing diplomatic relations, etc. So no, they are nowhere near suggesting that they surrender. In contrast, supporters of independence want to see the ROC renamed "Taiwan" and oppose further links with the mainland that could make reunification, which they believe is a bad thing, inevitable.

Supporting reunification does not necessarily mean endorsing the idea of reunification under the PRC or under one country, two systems. It could mean eventual reunification under a democratic China. It can also mean promoting the notion that both the Taiwan and mainland are part of a geographical entity named "China" and that there are two Chinese states. Opposing Taiwan independence may be the wise thing to do provided that Taiwan independence amounts to nothing more than an identity change, since Taiwan makes up the ROC and the ROC is already functioning as an independent country - this is not something people would want to fight a war over. --Jiang/talk 05:15, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Motivations and Prospects

Removed:

While there is virtually no opposition to reunification in China, the notion is bitterly resented in Taiwan. While supporters for independece remains at little over 10%, which raised to 21% recently in 2004. More than 70% of the population state that they would take up arms in a war against communist invasions. Partly this is due to the fact that Taiwan has struggled 40 years to put an end to its dictatorial regime; there is no reason to give up their perfectly functioning democracy so soon. The fact that this dictatorship was a mainland one in its roots also discouraged reunification.

The polls are already discussed the the previous section. Taiwan did not "struggled 40 years to put an end to its dictatorial regime". An island does not struggle. The notion that the "democracy" is functioning perfectly is also POV. No system is ever perfect. Anyway, the "dictorial regime" is gone so this is not a reason people oppose reunification. Rather, it's a reason to support independence (for indentity purposes). Talk of support for independence belongs in the Taiwan independence article.

However, a much more significant reason is that China has alienated the Taiwanese population on several occasions. This stretches as far back as the 19th century, when Taiwan was sceded to Japan. There was an outrage, as many felt betrayed and stabbed in the back by the government on the mainland. The fact that Qing officials refused to supply the Taiwanese when they fought against the Japanese aids to the resentment. The next incident would come when China took control of the island at the end of WWII. Much to the dissapointment of the Taiwanese people, the Chinese forces carried out masaacres and officials were extremely corrupted. It was a sharp contrast with the Japanese occupation, during which Japan sought to fully integrate Taiwan into itself as the "5th Island". Japanese officials, though strict, abided by the law, and life generally improved during the Japanese era. It should be noted that Japanese infrastructure is one of the key factors behind Taiwan's economic successes in later years.

Again, this about support for independence. We're not talking about the same China here. Furthermore, Qing officials would have been faced with further sanctions (and perhaps further wars with the Japanese) if they helped the Taiwanese. So they didn't like the KMT...this doesn't translate into refusal to deal with the communists. It only refers to the desire to shake off the old KMT symbols. Again, irrelevant.

Later, after Taiwan's seat in the UN Security Council was replaced by China, the PRC began to put pressure on governments to cut diplomatic relationships with Taiwan. Further, the PRC claims that it is acting in the interest of not only its own people but the people of Taiwan, and asserted that its more militant actions are directed only at supporters of Taiwanese independence, who are manipulating the population on Taiwan.

Because there is a general consensus in Taiwan that Taiwan/ROC is a sovereign state, such diplomatic pressures by the PRC are highly unpopular. Taiwan's being forced to use such titles as Chinese Taipei when participating in international events like Olympic Games has led many of Taiwanese to cheer for whatever nation competing against the Chinese during the event. When Bejing began a series of missile test launches in a bid to affect the 1996 elections result, most Taiwanese disregarded the claim that it was purely intended towards independence supporters, pointing out that there is no way for a bullet to differentiate between the two types. The fact that there is no clear definition as to who is an independence supporter fueled further anger.

This again sounds like a case for independence. We're not talking about reunification under the PRC here, but reunification in general.

Although most mainland Chinese would claim that their government would agree to talk about anything - not even ruling out letting Taiwan keep its military - as long as Taiwan accepts reunification, Taiwan has never received such offers officially. In addition, most people in Taiwan viewed China with deep suspicions, and believe that only "a baby is naive enough to believe that". The fact that China refuses to talk unless Taiwan agrees to the "one China policy" is often taken as sighs of Beijing's insincerity, since most Taiwanese considers China to be playing with words in an attempt to disguise its true intentions. Most Taiwanese rather protect their quasi sovereignty and believe that the choice of reunification proposed by China is no choice at all.

the offer for Taiwan to keep its military was made explicitly in a speech made by Jiang Zemin. The word "often" is the only thing keeping this paragraph from outright declaring Beijing as insincere. The argument is not being made because it is Beijing who is calling Chen Shui-bian insincere, not the other way around. Chen has asked for peace talks (albeit not under the concept of One China). And what is "most Taiwanese" supposed to mean anyways? --Jiang 02:08, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I also removed:

The idea of chinese reunification itself is also a controversial topic. Even though the ROC government lead by Kuomintang did relocated from mainland China to Taiwan, whether ROC government legally recieved the sovereignty of Taiwan after Japan renounced its sovereignty over Taiwan in 1952 is still a heated debate.

This is irrelevant. The statement is over the issue of the legitimacy of the Republic of China over Taiwan, not whether Taiwan should unify with the mainland. The Republic of China as well be a non-issue here. Furthermore, few people advocate this position so there is no "heated debate". --Jiang 08:21, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Useless information

I following (italicized) text was added:

The two sides have been separated since the end of the Chinese Civil War in 1949, as Communist Party failed to control Taiwan due to the interuption of Korean War and the protection of U.S..

It really doesn't matter why they did not succeed in taking Taiwan. The point is that they did not succeed, 1949 or afterwards. This is already stated in the original sentence. The added info is not necessary. --Jiang 18:25, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Removed.

Most polls show declining support for unification and increasing support for independence in the recent decade.

Actually they don't. Immediate unification has never been popular in Taiwan.

Roadrunner 05:32, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

This will probably have to be completely rewritten once the dust settles.

Roadrunner 05:34, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Current proposals

The People's Republic of China maintains itself as the sole legitimate government of China and has proposed the unification of Taiwan under the principle of "One Country, Two Systems", as has been done for both Hong Kong and Macau. According to the proposal outlined by President Jiang Zemin in 1995, Taiwan would also be permitted to keep its armed forces and to send a representative to be the "number two leader" in the PRC central government. Thus, under this proposal, the Republic of China would be made fully defunct. Outside of the government, less formal relationships, such as one in the draft National Unification Promotion Law of the People's Republic of China have been proposed.

Unification supporters in Taiwan no longer advocate the position that the Republic of China is the sole legitimate government of China. Proposals among unification supporters in Taiwan have varied, with more extreme supporters in Taiwan such as Li Ao advocating "One Country, Two Systems" while more moderate supporters arguing to uphold the status quo until the mainland democratizes and industrializes to the same level as Taiwan. In the 2000 presidential election, independent candidate James Soong proposed a European Union-style relation with the mainland (this was echoed by Hsu Hsin-liang in 2004) along with a non-agression pact. In the 2004 presidential election, Lien Chan proposed a confederation-style relationship (though he later moderated his stance amid a tight race). Beijing rejected the plan claiming that Taiwan, being part of China already, is not a state and therefore could not form a federation with the PRC. Proposals for unification are not being actively floated in Taiwan and the issue remains moot since President Chen Shui-bian has refused to acknowledge the One-China Policy, which is required by Beijing for talks to begin.

Unify or Reunify

Article addresses everything except the main issue; is it "unification" or "reunification"? Thank you. Nobs01 6 July 2005 15:12 (UTC)

Actually, I believe the correct term would be "annexation", but it is seldom used. --MGS 7 July 2005 13:45 (UTC)

It's "annexation" as much as every government is a "regime". Unnecessarily portrayed in a negative light, but really a neutral term.

As for "unify" or "reunify", there are 3 ways you can look at it. It depends on who is being (re)unified.

1. People's Republic of China. In this case, since the PRC has never held an inch of Taiwan, the correct word would be "unify".
2. Republic of China. Since the ROC was the sole legitimate government over most of what is now the PRC, the accurate term here would be, I think, "reunify".
3. China. Since China has pretty much always being a singular, unitary and centralised state over most of its history, in a supra-national concept of China, any annexation by any side would result in the reunification of China.

Right now, PRC is using the third viewpoint to further its claims, as it claims to be the sole legitimate government of China, used in the supra-national sense.
-- Миборовский 02:34, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Semantically, the Chinese "中國統一," used by both sides to refer to the issue, means Chinese unification and not reunification. LuiKhuntek 02:51, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Verifiability of one statement

Analysts predict Beijing will go to great costs to obtain Taiwan, even if it means international isolation or economic destruction as the issue has been ingrained into the concept of Chinese nationalism.

Are there any solid indications (speeches, memoranda, etc) that PRChina will go to the length as described in this statement (economic destruction, international isolation) to achieve unification? If not, I believe this should be rewritten.
-- Миборовский 02:34, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Reorganization needed

I've restored the "Current proposals" section (which was removed last May) and added info about pan-blue visits to the mainland and the anti-secession law. However, the section is more like an extension of the "development" section since there really arent any "current proposals". A reorganization of those two sections is probably needed.--Jiang 17:43, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

... the only outstanding issue ... ??

As Hong Kong and Macau have been reunited with mainland China under the sovereignty of the People's Republic of China, the only outstanding issue under active debate is between the mainland and Taiwan

Wha-huh? I hardly think this is adequate, as the expectations of the various peoples -- both those still in the process of unification with PRC and those trying to judge whether unification is a "good idea" -- should be addressed by the article.

How can the expectations, fulfilled or not, and experiences of Hong Kong and Macau not affect the debate within Taiwan? That is, how can you talk about the debate of future possibilities without talking about the disappointments and disillusionments of current days?

More provocatively, can you say that the phrase could be undeniably changed to "As Hong Kong and Macau have been successfully reunited with ..." ?

Shenme 22:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Support of unification by mainland China

I really like the way the paragraph is written; short, concise, and emotionally powerful. --141.213.196.250 23:06, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

opinion

since this is a discussion forum, i juss wanna say that the future of any independent country's future lies in the hands of its own citizens. and the overwhelming majority of the taiwanese people oppose china and in fact, lotsa taiwanese don't consider themselves to be chinese which is more or less true since most of da population have been in taiwan for over 500 years, others have foreign ancestry such as Dutch Portuguese, pacific islander, aboriginals, etc. it is hard fo china to justify its claim of taiwan and gain for support of taiwan. it ain't reunification, it's invasion. it is kinda like claimin china should rule japan and korea cause the ppl from these countries originated from china as well.--Freestyle.king 00:46, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

PRC POV!!!

This article is written completely from the PRC perspective and presents only the Taiwan question. What about Tuva? Outer Mongolia? Northern Burma? Hmm? The PRC has renounced claims to these areas, but the ROC has not. As such, all of the above are "candidates" for reunification, and need to be included. -- Миборовский 05:53, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Reunification is more accurate and consistent

Reunification is more accurate name than "unification" and it is consistent with the article title, Chinese reunification. The term "Chinese reunification" is the most common term used. RevolverOcelotX

Supporters of Taiwanese independence do not feel that there is a bond with China that they are "reunifying" with. That is why the term was qualified in the initial description for the introduction. And let's be clear that this was RevolverOcelotX's change to the article as it was. 151.205.37.254 00:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Most people, even Taiwan independence supporters use the term "Reunification" rather than "unification". We should keep the term consistent with the article title Chinese reunification. "Reunification" is the more accurate and commonly used term, this was the term commonly used by both the ROC and PRC. 151.205.37.254 please gather consensus before changing every instance of "reunification" to "unification" RevolverOcelotX

Anyone can glance at the diffs to see that he is lying, and that he is the one who is changing the words without prior consensus. "Unification" was dominant before RevolverOcelotX edited this page. "Consistency" would demand a further conformity to "unification", which is a neutral term. 151.205.37.254 00:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The article should use the dominant term in English. The Chinese is ambiguous, but in English, reunification is by far the most common term. Mention of unification in the intro should suffice.

If you check deeper into the history, you should see that reunification was used long before it was changed without discussion. but this should not be the issue: focus on product, not process--Jiang 00:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You are right, Jiang, it appears in older versions; however it was misleading of ROX to characterize this as my change when it was him doing so. I won't revert it further. However, are you not concerned that the term is being used to push subtle POV on this question? Perhaps it could be moved to Chinese unification. 151.205.37.254 01:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Chinese reunification is by far the most common term used in English. We should use the most common term in Misplaced Pages and keep it consistent throughout the article. RevolverOcelotX

"Unification" is also POV because it implies Taiwan was never a part of China. The English language makes this unavoidable. The best we can do is to describe in the text any discrepancies (which are not really an issue in Chinese). --Jiang 01:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain? Is there something you would propose? 151.205.37.254 01:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Its POV either way. The fact is taiwan was never part of the current China. But anyway, the best thing we can do now is make the article NPOV--Bonafide.hustla 21:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not "POV either way." The term "unification" is neutral. It is an exact translation of the Chinese term zhongguo tongyi used by the PRC, the ROC, and Taiwan Independence supporters. The Chinese term unambiguously translates as "unification." The way to say "REunification" in Chinese is. The objection that pro-(re)unification advocates have with the term is that "reunification" is so strongly POV that any suggestion to use another term, however neutral, is seen as advocacy of an anti-(re)unification position. This should not be. At the very least, we need to mention the controversy over the term. We need to be honest. There has been alot of fantastic and unverifiable assertions in this section alone (e.g. "Most people, even Taiwan independence supporters use the term 'Reunification' rather than 'unification'", "'Chinese reunification' is by far the most common term used in English") I'm glad these statements are in the discussion section and not in the article. Misplaced Pages should be a place for educating not propagandizing. Lenin13 06:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction needs shortening

The article has a large, off-putting introduction. A picture wouldn't go amiss either, IMO. Pipedreambomb 15:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The size is adequate. See the guidelines at Misplaced Pages:lead section.--Jiang 20:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Size may be appropriate, but the section does fall short of the guidelines Misplaced Pages:lead section and is heavily POV. One of the most obvious controversies, as is apparent from this discussion page, is with the term "reunification" itself. This controversy is not mentioned at all, even though the guidelines state that the lead section should include "mention of its notable controversies." Lenin13 05:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

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