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Revision as of 22:20, 7 September 2006

Mille Bornes

Hi, I just recently was able to remember the name of the card game I played when I was young, and I've been looking everywhere for any information I can find on it. Since you apparently created the card images shown on the mille bornes page, I figure you might be able to help me out. I know I also had a computer version of it, years ago, but I can't seem to find any mille bornes programs that aren't for mobile phones or something. Do you know of any? Barring that, its getting to the point where I just want to print out my own deck, and laminate the cards myself. Thanks for any help at all you can give me. --Monguin61 21:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what help you need. Whether you want to play Mille Bornes with real cards and real people or with any number of electronic games, there is ample opportunity.

• While researching the topic I generated the workpage Talk:Mille Bornes/work. This is just a page of disorganized notes but you'll see several computer versions listed, often with direct exteral links. Mille Bornes seems to have been ported, with or without license, to every imaginable platform.

• Real cards are widely available; the game is in re-release. I found a deck at Toys "R" Us; I've seen them at Target and, I think, Walgreens. Failing joy at your local big-box retailer, you can order the game online through any number of outlets.

• The new deck is (IMPO) ugly -- flashy but unplayable. Fortunately, many old decks are for sale on eBay. This game has always been extremely popular and produced in large quantity -- so no need to overpay. You might get a nice 1962 deck for about the same as a new one!

• The images I created to illustrate the article (eg, Image:MB-roll.png) are intended for that purpose alone; they are of fairly low resolution, besides being of extremely simple design. They are however licensed freely under GFDL and you are welcome to download and print a set. If you really want to do this, you may want to coordinate with me; the original workfiles are vector illustrations so I can send you much higher-resolution versions.

I don't see how I can be of further help but please, don't hesitate to ask again. John Reid 00:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realize there was anything useful on the work page. I've been searching for anything I can think of in an effort to find some sort of computer version, but with no luck. I guess I was kind of hoping you'd know of some free computer version for windows, but there is that link to the java version, which is a lot more than I've been able to find. That's plenty good for me. Thanks. --Monguin61 05:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I won't swear that there's anything useful there. At one time, I put considerable time into researching Mille Bornes and its ancestor, Touring. It's always feast or famine around here; either your work gets cut up by a dozen sidewalk superintendents or you can't get any help at all. I took it so far and nobody showed interest so I dropped it.

Here's a shareware MB-clone purported to run under Windows:

http://www.dejavusoftware.com/row/

Have fun! John Reid 20:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Template:Buzzword

Just a note to let you know that I created a new cleanup template there. Not sure that the name is the best possible name, but I'm not sure how a Template:Bullshit would fly. The concerns I have are addressed more fully at Template talk:Buzzword.

Dropping you a note because you had responded supportively to my statements about this issue when it came up last April on Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Method Engineering Encyclopedia. Looking to enlist more people to tag That Sort of Thing when they see it. - Smerdis of Tlön 15:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see WP:META. Thank you for inspiring me. John Reid 11:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Add Template:Cent to CBB?

The more I think about it, the more I like Template:Cent. In fact, I like it so much, I proposed adding it to the Community Portal. I hope you'll add your 2¢. Rfrisbie 15:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Cent

John, you asked me to upload a screenshot of the way {{Cent}} looks to me. Please check it out at User talk:Metropolitan90. I believe the problem may have to do with the fact that the colors were encoded with three hex digits instead of six. --Metropolitan90 01:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I hope I've corrected the problem; let me know. John Reid 04:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

SPUI - Roads - Cent

You removed Misplaced Pages:Guide to writing about U.S. state highways. This is talking about a different thing than the current debate. The current debate only deals with article names, while my guide starts with the current decision there and talks about what actually goes in articles. --SPUI (T - C) 04:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's venue-shopping. John Reid 04:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Venue-shopping for WHAT? This is a different issue, one that has not been discussed much. --SPUI (T - C) 04:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:User Nogus

Erm, what? Why are you telling me this? --Rory096 05:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest. Follow the link. I think it's wrong. Please do as you see fit. John Reid 05:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Wrong about what? That it's inflammatory and divisive? I have no idea, I can't see the template; it's deleted. --Rory096 05:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This is an out of process deletion. I think that the fact you can't see the template to form your own opinion is a good argument aginst deletion. I find the edit summary bigoted and the actor unrepentant. You may want to read the discussion on the actor's talk. Do as you think best. Thanks for coming by. John Reid 05:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see why you put that on my talk page. Perhaps some sort of explanation is in order. And I suggest you seem my comment on Kingboyk's talk page. Ungovernable Force 05:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought you might be interested; if not, please accept my apologies. John Reid 05:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop spamming, or I will have to block you. If you have a point to make, then make kindly it in an appropriate forum. --bainer (talk) 06:18, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Replied in the appropriate place. John Reid 06:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

A better option would be to just take this to deletion review and/or ask for it to be userfied. Please stop spamming user talk pages without any explanation - it'll make things worse for you. —AySz88\^-^ 06:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the best option is to stick a rag in the mouth of anyone who disagrees with GUS. That will surely solve all problems, finally. John Reid 08:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You're surely making the false assumption that I have a strong viewpoint on this issue. My promise to you: make a template which opposes the GUS but which doesn't immediately make me think of the "final solution" and I will not touch it. There's no need for clever wording is there? Just "This user opposes the German Userbox Solution". I mean, come on, are you seriously trying to say that "sleepless nights" and "German solutions" aren't intended to conjur up images of persecuted citizens lying in bed at night trembling with fear?

The deletion was done under WP:CSD T1 ("Templates that are divisive and inflammatory.") as I thought my deletion summary made clear, and I posted notification of my action for admin review. Nobody else has disagreed.

You're more than welcome to take the matter to DRV but it would be much easier to create a new template with gentler wording. --kingboyk 09:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You did not criticize the template's wording in your deletion summary; you said the image was "Nazi symbology." Now that you know it's not, you're shifting your ground to words. I'm not responsible for putting "German" and "Solution" into the name of the proposal -- really, I'm not. If you find that juxtaposition offensive, you need to take it up with Ashley Y, who created the page. While you're at it, you might want to revert the German flag on top. I don't have a problem with it.

I appreciate your promise to allow me express myself as I see fit within the bounds of decency; I think I've already done so. I don't know why Nogus gives you frightening visions and so I don't know how to make anything that won't upset you.

This is a wiki, Kingboyk. The template is not my personal property; I don't even assert primary control over it. It's in template namespace, not my userspace. Think about it. I'd appreciate it if you left the reference to disturbed sleep. I neither oppose nor support GUS; I oppose the vicious and contentious way in which it's being forced on an unwilling community. Wrestling with the fallout keeps me awake when I should be sleeping.

If you believe it just has to read This user opposes the forcible out-of-process imposition of the German Userbox Solution then edit this box. That makes you part of the solution -- the real solution -- and not part of the problem. John Reid 10:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

John, let me honest with you. I am a German. while I'm two generations apart from those that performed those horrible atrocities, I believe in the motto "never forget, so it may never happen again". I feel deeply disturbed by what you did. Trying to indirectly compare the implementation of WP:GUS with The Holocaust is beyond bad taste. We had difficulties, we had disagreements, but I respected you as an individual and editor. I do not think I am able to do that any more. CharonX/talk 16:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Charon, you have got the wrong end of this entirely. I never said anything about Nazism nor did I stick a swastika or Nazi-era symbol in the template. That was Kingboyk's interpretation and I think he sees his error now. The coat of arms I used is seen everywhere in the modern Germany. I think you know this.

You're German; good, so am I. In my part of Pennsylvania, anyone who is not German is "English". I'm offended by the thought that somehow the stain of Nazism is so indelible that it leaches into every criticism of anything vaguely German. WP:GUS, strictly speaking, is not even really German; the idea originated on de: but it's a page on en:. I don't think Germans are driving it, let alone neo-Nazis. Do you? I think it's silly to call it the "German" anything but it's too late to fix that now.

What you see in Nogus says a lot more about you and your fears and biases than about me and mine. I say GUS disturbs my rest; you draw an analogy between GUS and stormtroopers bashing down doors at midnight. There does indeed seem to be an autocratic element driving GUS but this has nothing to do with Germans or Nazis. You're just endorsing a stereotype -- raising Hitler's ghost in order to blame me for the necromancy.

I hate to reason via what if but I can't resist this time. Let's say -- for whatever reason -- that this notion to userfy UBX happened to go under the name of Misplaced Pages:Mexican Userbox Solution ("WP:MUX"). Let's say that the war proceeded exactly as it has; and finally, let's say I created Template:User Nomux. Rather than describe, I'll sketch it for you.

This user sleeps poorly when Mexican Solutions are imposed.

This looks a bit shabby because I haven't fixed the coat of arms to conform to overall UBX expectations but you get the idea. Coincidentally, the Mexican coat of arms also includes an eagle. Otherwise, the content is identical to Nogus.

So, what stereotype would you say this expresses? Mexican government has also had a fascist element -- as have many modern governments, US included. Would you say this template evokes images of Federales dragging citizens off in the night? It has happened. Or do you laugh at that image, preferring lazy paisanos in sombreros? Is your mental picture of the Mexican Userbox Solution "Leave the boxes until mañana"? Perhaps you don't read anything into it other than This user doesn't rest well when admins go around deleting UBX out of process, forcing a "solution" on people who don't want it. That's all it says.

The point of this what if is that the Nazi stereotype is coming out of your head -- not the box. Maybe it's not possible for anyone to oppose the way GUS is being forced on us without surfacing your own worst nightmares. But that's your problem. Sorry. As I told Kingboyk, you can always edit the box and try to improve it. First, put it back.

I'm mildly astonished that everyone does not immediately see Godwin's Law in action here. Kingboyk used the word Nazi to describe the box; by longstanding Internet tradition, that ends the discussion and he loses. John Reid 10:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to apologize to you John. I believed what I heared (that the eagle + swastika was used in this box) plus the fact that the box said "German Solutions" and acted rashly and violently. As you said, this IS quite a sensitive issue to me, and I admit that I'm strongly biased there. Horrible as that chapter was, it seems (to me) it already has begun to fade from memory, turn into just another page in the history book, for too many people. I'm sorry John, I acted with a temper, without thinking - I hope you accept my apology. CharonX/talk 11:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It has not faded from my memory. Restore this illegally deleted item and although I won't forget it, I'll certainly become much more calm. John Reid 13:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want the template restored, you have to ask Kingboyk or any other admin or use deletion review. I had no hand in its deletion, nor do I have the power to restore it. I have apologized for my mistake, but I can do no more. CharonX/talk 21:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Kingboyk has done a hit-and-run deletion; he's taken a very convenient wikibreak just now. You don't need to be an admin to weigh in on this issue on the side of the good guys. You can ask for its restoration, too. This isn't a me-against-kingboyk thing; it's not a pro vs anti GUS thing, either. It's about admin arrogance and community control of the project. If you just want to take orders, you're not on board. If you think admins should not be allowed to delete things that awaken their prejudices, you should get on the bus. I'm not the boss and I don't tell you how to express yourself. But one way or another, all right-thinking Wikipedians should object to this bigoted, out-of-process deletion.

I've taken my action -- wise or otherwise. Now it's your turn -- not to carp at me, but to work for a better community. John Reid 11:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The template says "sleeps poorly", "German solution", and uses the German flag, which puts me uneasily in mind of the Final Solution. The above debate in itself proves that it's divisive and inflammatory. Yes I did a hit and run deletion because I have told you I don't know how many times that I won't undelete it, take it to DRV. There's no point harassing me over this because my mind is made up. If the community decides to restore it, that's absolutely fine, but I stand by my decision and won't undelete it. What part of the foregoing don't you understand?

Now, to make it nice and easy, I'm listing it on DRV for you myself. --kingboyk 11:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What don't I understand?

• I don't understand why you deleted the box with an accusation of "Nazi regalia".

• You admitted your mistake but I'm still not sure if you know how offensive it was or how much in error.

• I don't understand why, if you do know you've done wrong, you won't be a gentleman and correct your mistake.

• I don't understand why you would make a bigoted statement and then stand by it. Do you really think all Germans are Nazis? Do you think every single time the word "German" comes into a discussion you have the right to raise Hitler's ghost and parade it around the room?

• I don't understand why you won't respond directly to my comments. I said Ashley Y, who created the page, decided to call it the "German Userbox Solution"; I did not. You have objected now twice to this. Why don't you just admit that the page is so titled? Or move this page, if you dare? GUS is the shortcut; the official page title is German userbox solution. If this bothers you, sorry, but it's not my responsibility. I did not choose to put "German" and "Solution" together in the same phrase.

• I don't understand how you dare to draw a line connecting Germans, solutions, and death camps. Yes, we are all aware that over 50 years ago, there were some Germans who decided to kill a great number of people -- 12 million by some estimates -- and labeled this "the final solution to the Jewish problem". I find it highly offensive for you to keep equating "final solution" with "German solution" -- as if Germans, as a race or a nation, are now forever incapable of solving any problem except through mass extermination. You need to stop this right away. You're entitled to your private opinion, however nasty; but you're not entitled to air it publicly.

• I don't understand why you think I'm forbidden to speak of poor sleep in this connection. Right at the moment, it's nearly 6 am and I haven't slept all night; a major reason is this disturbance. That's the main intent of the box, to air disgruntlement with the contention and the imposition, not with GUS itself.
  • For your historical edification, Jews were not just rounded up in the middle of the night and shipped to the death camps; it was not done secretly but openly by light of day. The classic "knock in the night" has been reserved for secret police in all regimes, something done stealthily and on a fairly small scale. The true horror of the Nazi genocide is that it was done publicly, officially, and with little shame. This was done on a grand, industrial scale; efficient murder of millions. You think a quiet neighorhood was disturbed by a knock in the night? A lone family of Jews was dragged away to Gestapo HQ and interrogated before death? Oh no. Entire cities were combed for Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and anybody else that didn't fit the Aryan dream; walled ghettos were built, and whole trainloads of human beings were shipped off. Nobody bothered to ask them anything. If you were a Jew living in Nazi Germany, you did not "sleep poorly"; you didn't sleep at all and your worst fears came by daylight.

• I don't see why you can't tell the difference between a swastika, an eagle, and a flag. I put an eagle in the UBX -- a modern eagle copied from the Federal Republic of Germany's coat of arms, this same symbol seen everywhere in modern Germany. I did not put any German flag, of any era, in the UBX; the modern flag does appear on the main GUS page and I didn't put it there, either. So far as I know, you are the only person to suggest that a swastika should have anything at all do do with the proposal, the UBX, or anything else.

• Finally, I don't understand how you can keep up your end of the discussion at all. You need to admit fault, apologize for the bigoted edit summary and for your following bigoted comments, and undo the harm you have done. That will not make it all okay but it will certainly be all you can possibly do to contain the damage.

• I don't understand why you think throwing your mess into a highly polarized DRV is going to absolve you from blame.

The question someone might ask is: What don't you understand? Frankly, I'm losing interest in that. I just want you to get out of the way of this project and stop insulting the German people. John Reid 12:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

And still a very intersting choice of image, Mr. Reid. I wonder the reason you placed the Bundesadler inside a white circle, on a red background, quite similar to, you too must admit, a certain Nazi symbol. I assumed that you had used the "plain black on white" eagle you showed above. Also I'd like to point you to a spelling error - you wrote "german solutions" - there is, as far as I know, only one "German (userbox) solution on wikipedia, so that little error caused us to think about WP:GUS and... other infamous (German) solutions, where people slept poorly and in fear. I spoke quite harshly to you before, but I get the growing feeling that there was truth to my words. CharonX/talk 19:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Erm, what about it? Misza13 10:45, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked

You've been blocked for 24 hours for internal spamming. Considering how long you've been around you really should know better. Put yourself in someone else's shoes; if spamming was a commonly accepted practice and everyone was doing it and not getting blocked for it, how would you appreciate getting random unsolicited messages every day about things you could care less for? --Cyde Weys 13:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

You are just acting out your anti-UBX bias -- in direct contradiction to your RfA promise not to do so. This is exactly the heavy-handed abuse of power I wish to speak out against. Of course you gag me. But what's the point? I'm a busy man; my life isn't going to be upset because I get some paid work done instead of this stuff. I'm certainly not going to alter my opinion. Do you think you can terrorize the rest of the project into conforming to your rigid vision? History tells us: In the long run, repression fails.

Block if you like -- I think occasional blocking is healthy for every editor -- but restore the expression or resign your position as admin. You discard all legitimacy otherwise. John Reid 08:20, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Posting a concern

John, you're a good editor, I'm not disputing that, and I'm not looking for an argument, but I am concerned at your language and manner in this edit and this edit. I think you need to cool down a bit, and perhaps refresh yourself with WP:OWN, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. Take a step back and unwind a little maybe? There seem to be a few concerns with your style edits at {{cent}}, would it hurt to explain and build consensus for them? I remember when you followed the WP:1RR. Anyway, take it easy regardless. Steve block Talk 16:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I still do follow 1RR; mostly I avoid reverting editors at all, even once. You read my comment instead of merely criticizing it? If you are going to present yourself as some sort of father figure, go give that guy a talk about rude whinging. Or better yet, why don't you restore Template:User Nogus? Since that's got me far more upset than this guy. John Reid 13:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I read your comment. I noticed your reverts at {{cent}}. You need to step back. I have no intention of presenting myself as a father figure, merely as an admin on the english Misplaced Pages. It's up to you to decide if you can communicate with people in a civil manner, and also work out what is important here: the encyclopedia or your feelings. Steve block Talk 20:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What's your point, Steve? I reverted twice and not the same editor. I think it's notable that another editor had the courtesy to explain his objections and show me a screenshot; I catered to his needs.

I really do avoid reverting editors; you can see that or not. If you're not here to bust me for a 3RR violation then you are playing daddy. You and I have enough history that you can't really present yourself as my pal. The uncivil comment was aqua background... caused me physical pain in my eyes... That was rude, damned rude, and I did my best not to be rude in return. I told the actor to stop doing that. He continued to whinge and self-justify the rudeness. Now if you want to do some good, talk to him. If you just want to whinge yourself, please stop doing that. John Reid 11:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

John, if you want to keep up with this line of rudeness it's your call. I'll act as I see fit. The record shows I've asked you to moderate your tone. Steve block Talk 20:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

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