Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:21, 14 November 2004

2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities

This has been a tough one for me to do. I'm normally quite leary of the VfD process, but I think we need to confirm some of our principles here. Let me start out by saying this is not about partisan issues - it is about how we at Misplaced Pages want to handle "current events" and the danger of doing so.

This article was split off from a section in U.S. presidential election, 2004 into it's own page. Unfortunately, that move has opened it up to massive expansion - overshadowing the real impact of this issue as reported in external sources.

(correction-this article was at no time a split off - FT2)'

(also note: Netoholic modified significantly a whole section from the U.S. presidential election, 2004 article ) - Ta bu shi da yu 02:55, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please do not use this vote to debate the sides of the issue. The problem as I see it is in the approach this article is taking. The way this article stands, it seems to only be here as a "conclusion searching for evidence" and we are simply adding to an internet blog rumor mill by performing our own "investigation".

A summary of the problem points (more expansion on these given on its Talk page):

• Misplaced Pages:Verifiability - that the "raw data" used comes from dubious sources (partisan websites, blogs, and even, yes, images uploaded to ImageShack with no traceability). Remove that, and we are left with is a collection of scattered, unlinked reports of problems which are typical of all elections.
• Misplaced Pages:No original research - some of our editors have produced charts and graphs based on the dubious data. Statistical analysis is outside our scope. It is our responsibility to summarize the conclusions of others, not to formulate them. This article is nothing but an essay.
• Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view - from the article title to the content, this page draws a conclusion for our readers that there is a conspiracy, rather than problems faced during most elections.
• Misplaced Pages is not a mere collection of external links - This article is essentially linking to every minor report and rumor on the 'net. While there is "nothing wrong with adding both lists of links and lists of on-line references you used", this article is not using those links as references, but rather as evidence of its conclusions.

I ask that it be deleted, so that outside agencies do not use the bold speculation of a few of our editors as corroborating evidence. Making the history of the article unavailable is the only sure way to do that. We can start over by re-adding a summary of the speculations to the main election article in a responsible way. -- Netoholic @ 20:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

Summary of opposing view

This is being placed here to show the counter view — something the original author saw fit to remove from this page. Might as well show the opposition to the delete as well. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Article

The reasons for VfD are incorrect - the article and its sources:

(1) Meets "Verifiability" in a big way - sources are House Committee letters, Federal Expert testimony, Official poll results, etc

(2) Meets "Cite Sources" guidelines in respect of any weblogs or other less formal sources

(3) Is explicitly within the terms of "Original research". Not only the article does not propose any original idea, but also the guideline states specifically:

"However all of the above constitute acceptable content once they have become a permanent feature of the public landscape, for example if ... the ideas have become newsworthy they have been repeatedly and independently documented..."

(4) Advocates no position but merely states evidence (to which opposing evidence can be added).

Talk page consensus: "The neutrality criteria is (1) that the information contained must be accurate capable of verification, and must be sourced, and (2) that evidence of irregularities and evidence that there were not irregularities are both fairly represented.

... Should any person on either side wish to add any kind of evidence that the election was not in fact irregular, evidence that the voting machines were in fact not subject to irregularities, evidence that any item on this article is inaccurate, or evidence that any expert statement is implausible and suspect, then that should be added to this article."

(5) In respect of "a mere collection of rumors":

To describe matters that respected House Committee members saw fit to write not one but two letters within 4 days to the GOA expressing alarm, where Federal Hearings have heard expert testimony as to the seriousness and potential for these issues, which can be found in the reputable printed national papers of many countries, where many thousands of individual American voters have stated they witnessed incidents that suggested the same personally, and where official data of the US government itself suggests an significant issue, as "a mere collection of links", "every minor rumor" and "partisan junk" might suggest Netoholic is highly partial in this matter.

Delete

1. Netoholic @ 20:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC) -- I myself am on the side of Kerry, and am reasonably sure some irregularities happened - but no more than other elections and not enough to warrant this article.
2. Uncleanupable, and therefore without potential to become encyclopedic - just getting the link for this off of Template:In the news caused a massive revert war on the main page involving at least two admins. See history starting at 17:27, Nov 10, 2004, when Neutrality made the addition. - RedWordSmith 20:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

   I was one of the admins. I have ceased trying to include it as news (I made a mistake in judgement over this one), however this should not affect whether the article is kept or not. Please vote on whether to keep the article over its own merits, not on the edits done for related articles. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:05, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

   • Is Misplaced Pages supposed to be an activist, partisan website? Because even those who want to keep the article seem to want to do so because it's "an important story" that the "major media" isn't covering. Put the page up next month, when the issues have all been resolved. Three quarters of the assertions are unatributed opinion without any citation or link. The statements that ARE cited come from unreliable, partisan internet websites. I'm sorry, but democraticunderground and commondreams are not wikipedia quality resources. --anon

   • Contributor - please sign! Also, check out other articles that were kept on VfD. See Christian views of women. Also note that we have potentially partisan and explosive articles like the one on the Arab-Israeli Conflict. These have been constantly editted to NPOV, and are not going to be removed any time soon. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:05, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
   • A large part of the motive for wanting the article is to have a neutral reference for evidence on both sides, as this controbversy goes on, whereby those who become interested in the question (and there will be many who want to prove or refute it) can find accurate impartial information so far as we're able as a community. This is well within the bounds of wikipedia, if we can reach consensus on subjective matters such as homosexuality, abortion and euthenasia, then we can surely summarise in a NPOV way purported evidence relevant to a debate as we don't even have to draw conclusions to do so. Thats my motive - a clean sourced article that I can read as time goes on to understand the issue, and that grows and reflects what is best known by many people, and its qualified sources. I can't speak for others. FT2 06:11, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

3. Delete for now. This article might be fixable someday but today, it's pointless speculation which is distracting good editors from more important articles. I recommend that we wait a few months and let the official investigations do their work. Then someone can write a clean and comprehensive article without all the disputes. Rossami (talk) 05:33, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) moved to correct place
4. I appear to be fighting the tide here, but I agree that this article should be started over from scratch, with careful attention paid to anonymous edits. --Slowking Man 09:24, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
5. Jmarler 21:34, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) - I agree that this page should be deleted. Read some other blogs like WizBangBlog where the argument is made "... If you allow disinformation in an "encyclopedia" then what good is it? Can a small but vocal group of people rewrite history as they see fit for partisan gain?"

   Let me see if I understand that; one of the premises on which this article was VfD'ed in the first place was the assertion that there were no actual controversies or irregularities about the election, except in the minds of bloggers who thought they saw controversies or irregularities. That assertion is provably false; the House Committee members who wrote to the GAO asking for an investigation might, conceivably, also be bloggers, but even if so, the idea that there is no credible controversy is not reality, it is willful wishful thinking on the parts of those who got what they wanted and aren't concerned that they might have gotten what they wanted only by dishonoring democracy and depriving other Americans of their sacred right to vote and to have that vote counted. Now you are presenting the opinions of bloggers that the article is all "disinformation" and is "rewrit history for partisan gain", and you're saying those bloggers should be taken seriously unlike the other bloggers? That's your argument for deletion? -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:13, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

   user Jmarler has one edit. this. Can you say troll wind up??? Mozzerati 00:24, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)

   Oh please! will people stop with the counting of edits already? Netoholic is doing exactly the same thing with the keep side of the vote. For the umpteenth time: low edits does not necessarily mean they are sock puppets (or trolls)!!!!! - Ta bu shi da yu 16:30, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

   I agree that a low number of edits does not necessarily mean sock puppets or trolls. What I'm more concerned about is people who are acting in good faith but without an accompanying understanding of Misplaced Pages -- for instance, this vote by Jmarler (which is still his sole edit) seems to rely on the assumption that POV content in an article justifies deletion rather than improvement of the article. And even if everyone on this vote is acting in good faith, I don't think we want to set a precedent that future votes can be swayed by calling in people from outside Misplaced Pages to suddenly become Wikipedians and immediately start weighing in on its course. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:20, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

   Hmm.. actually, my comment was more directed to Antaeus to not take this guy so seriously than against Jmarler himself. Someone who gives one negative reference to an ultra-right blog then says 'wikipedia is doomed forever' is probably joking (`winding you up'.. does that translate from en_UK?). Anyway.. I kind of apologise for the unqualified one vote comment since this vote may be the wrong place for them, but in general, it's important for undestanding the "consensus" to know who is who and what background they have. We are not carrying out simple majority voting. Voices with more experience should carry more weight. Only a person who has seen a NPOV article made from a controvercial POV one can easily see that this material is going somewhere useful. Someone who hasn't been watching wikipedia for long enough to see that shouldn't be voting delete (or for that matter keep). Remember; everything that is added to this article which is incorrect is going to be used later to prove that people over-reacted and/or covered up. The history of this article and the claims made in it are going to be very useful in analysing the people making the claims (either for or against election fraud)Mozzerati 19:19, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)

Merge

1. Significant portions of this article relate directly only to electronic voting and should be moved there. This would significantly reduce the size of this page, and allow the information pertaining directly to the 2004 Election controversies be covered here. Much of the background research provided here does not belong. In addition, the POV of what remains truly needs to be cleaned up.--Radioastro 22:15, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
   • This user has 6 edits, all after tihs vote began. func(talk)
2. This article is a veritable breeding ground for half-truths, conjecture, and Michael-Moore-like propaganda. This is not a real controversy in the news so it shouldn't be covered in depth. 2000 was different...that was a huge controversy and should have been covered in detail. Most of this info should be trimmed to be a small, succinct part of the main U.S. presidential election, 2004 article or whatever pertinent articles. --Doctorcherokee 00:45, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
3. Merge most of the information with the main 2004 US election article and the rest with the article on electronic voting (there is no need to independantly discuss the same issues twice). I've already offered to do this in Misplaced Pages's IRC room myself after I get over a recent surgery. I believe that once all of the strawmen, unreliable/unverifiable sources and numerous POV statements are removed and a bit of condensing is done it will easily fit under its own header on the main article. Information as it comes in can then be added as it is verified. If merging it with the main article becomes impossible, I also agree with another user that said this page needs to be renamed to "2004 U.S. Election Voting controversies" (or something similar). In any case the page is in sore need of a cleanup and de-POVing before it goes ANYWHERE. Reene (リニ) 07:29, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

   • Merger of a lot of detail about one specific election wouldn't be suitable for electronic voting; I've elaborated at Talk:2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities#Radiastro's Merge Proposal. It's also too much detail for U.S. presidential election, 2004. As for de-POVing, I've added one expert's argument about how the exit polls could go wrong even without voting machine fraud. There's certainly much more work that could be done to improve the article, and it's unfortunate that so much time is being diverted to this VfD listing instead. JamesMLane 17:07, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

4. Merge into U.S. presidential election, 2004. ] 20:50, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Please don't delete it. There is information in the article that merits inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Tim Ivorson 23:01, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC) (duplicate, listed twice also under "keep")

Keep

1. Keep and clean the article of original research. This is certainly something that has gained national attention. (Not as much as 2000, of course). Just monitor this article closely and make sure it stays out of the realm of original research, and within the realm of verifiability. —siroχo 20:16, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
2. Keep. This article constitutes original research, and it needs to be gutted and torn apart. However there is some valid information here, so it shouldn't be deleted. Rhobite 20:23, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
3. Keep, but rewrite in an NPOV fashion. RickK 20:25, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
4. Kevin Baas | talk 20:26, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
5. Keep, the article is not original research as FT2 explains in depth on the talk page. Some clean up is warranted. There seemingly has been a systematic attempt to damage various aspects of the article using every "wikipedia trick in the book" for the last 18 hours or so. Zen Master 20:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
6. Keep. Important and interesting issue. The article could benefit from some cleanup and should be checked for NPOV problems. Martg76 20:57, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
7. Keep. This article constitutes original research, and it needs to be reviewed. But in a world without a paper trail, math or Stat proof is all that is available and with the results of the math now being done this article has potential to become encyclopedic. There is valid information here, so it shouldn't be deleted. user:papau (This is papau's only edit. func(talk))
8. Keep, but clean up. This is indeed a national issue, and is real. The article right now is a bit of a mess, but far from irrecoverable. This falls in with Netoholic's all-or-nothing attitude about this article in other areas as well (see his bid to delete the Controversial3 template). --Spud603 21:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

   Spud has 6 edits, all after this vote began. func(talk)

9. Keep the article but, once this foolish VfD listing is disposed of, move it to 2004 U.S. election voting controversies. There's been discussion on the article's talk page about the title. Improper capitalization should be removed; the addition of "voting" is to exclude controversies like the bulge under Bush's jacket in the debate. As for the substance, the subject obviously merits an article. It's been extensively discussed in the media. Ralph Nader has formally demanded a recount in New Hampshire, based in part on one of the issues addressed in the article, the discrepancies between exit polls and Diebold machine results. (I'll add this to the article.) Concerns that particular portions of the article might constitute original research or otherwise be inappropriate should be addressed through comments on the talk page and through RfC, both of which are already in progress. JamesMLane 21:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
   • Keep. The article is well researched, and this information needs to be known, ESPECIALLY with the mainstream media burying the story. --(unsigned. func(talk))
10. Keep.kizzle 21:20, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
11. Keep. I found the article to be useful and it's certainly a valid topic. Most of the objections raised by the submitter could be addressed by sending this article to cleanup. —Psychonaut 21:26, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
12. Keep, but needs some work, especially in POV. Some of this could qualify as "original research,"; (and needs to be fixed in that regard) but the article itself is not entirely such. NiceGuyJoey 21:29, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
13. Keep. If (and IMO 'when') the election fraud issue is resolved, the pertinence of the page will become eminently clear. In the meantime, that there is a conflict is certainly on topic for a reference site. Yes, it needs some work. Yes, finding someone relatively neutral to shepherd that work won't be easy. No, those two things taken together do *not*, IMO, constitute a valid reason to delete the page. Does Misplaced Pages really want to contribute to "History is written by the winners"? Baylink 21:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Baylink has edits going back to December of 2003. func(talk)
14. Keep. Definitely...Problems were widely expected before the election, so it is important to have an article that describes what did and did not cause problems. This should be done without original research and in accordance with the NPOV policy. If you think that the article contents violates these policies, modify it, but I cannot understand how one can believe that deletion is the way to solve this problem. — David Remahl 21:40, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
15. VfD is a bad place to make editorial decision. The question is not the article is good or bad, but is whehther we need a parmanent deletion for some particular reason like copyright-vio. -- Taku 22:24, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
16. Keep. It is very important to keep this article on here, when the mainstream media will not cover it. It's the truth and nothing but. MinnyBean 22:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    MinnyBean's 3 contributions are all to this page. func(talk)

17. Keep. anthony 警告 21:26, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
18. FT2 22:39, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
19. Keep: This is important information not readily available elsewhere. Hollymark (moved to correct location)

    This is Hollymark's only contribution. func(talk)

20. Keep. If the data is inaccurate someone should fix them. However, these are ongoing events and with any ongoing event there is alway inaccuracies and misinformation. To not cover these stories, correct or incorrect, would be to go against the spirit of Misplaced Pages in my view. --Butter 23:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    Butter has 6 contributions, going back to October of this year. func(talk)

21. Keep for the reasons I've already outlined on the article's talk page. Shane King 23:41, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
22. Keep --Stewie Wiki 23:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

    Stewiki has 1 edit unrelated to this vote, from October.

23. Keep Ducker 00:02, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Keep BlahBlah42 00:07 12 Nov 2004 (UTC) (no such user. func(talk))
24. Keep It is appropriate for wikipedia to note the existence of controversies and the issues they involve. While I agree that much work needs to be done on this article (especially in the NPOV area), I think an improved article on the subject would be an appropriate thing for wikipedia to carry. --Mosesklein 00:12, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    Mosesklein has 5 edits unrelated to this vote, going back to Aug of 2003. func(talk)

25. Keep Most references from reputable sources (directly or calculations based on official counts) - no valid reasons given to list the page content as "inacurate" (and even less to qualify it as "junk") - Content important for future reference to electronic voting machines and associated problems. Might need some editing. Eric514 00:17, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    Eric514 has 9 edits, all made on the same day he cast this vote.func(talk)

    I'm a long time reader and a new user. What rule prevents beginners form casting a vote ? Are you trying to disenfranchise voters ... for a vote about removing a page on vote irregularities ? Eric514 20:20, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    Allow me to repeat what I say in the comments section: Please read our policies regarding deletion policy, deletion guidelines for administrators, and sock puppets. I am not suggesting that your vote is improper or was made in bad faith, but it does look questionable, which makes the side that you are voting on look bad. (I am on that same side, by the way). func(talk) 20:27, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

26. Keep This page has excellent potential for a resource regarding the 2004 election. Would anyone argue that the 2000 Florida recount not be included?? Of course, editing, updating, and additional sources for raw data would be helpful. But there is obviously and certainly no cause for complete and irreversible deletion. jwouden 00:38, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    This is Jwouden's only edit. func(talk)

27. Keep, alas. Accusations like this will be flying for some time, ungrounded though they may be, and we might as well have a place for them. Of course it will be a magnet for POV pushers and troublemakers, but in its absence so would the main 2004 election page, so no loss there. VeryVerily 00:42, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Keep As long as it is dealing with documented sources, it should be here. We have plenty of articles with thinner documentation and larger margins of error. 66.30.79.242 01:10, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
28. Keep There is nothing wrong with this article existing. It needs cleanup however. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
29. Keep. What FT2 said below. ] 02:01, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
30. Keep. Solid article. Elizabeth D 8:20 CST Nov 11 2004

    elizdelphi's 2 contributions are to this page. func(talk)

31. Keep. There was a 2004 election. It had controversies. It had irregularities. I'm not sure in what fantasy world the 2004 election happened and there were no controversies or irregularities, but in the real world, there were controversies that have been noted by far more than "the Internet rumor mill", and there is no reason to delete an article which describes them. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
32. Keep as far as I'm concerned the Secretary of state and attorney general of ohio both stating that over 90,000 votes had been discarded is verification enough for me that some weird sh-- is going on. Just because CNN and ABC are in on the scam doesn't mean we need to be.Keep/fact-check/verify/expand/nominate for Featured status when finished and finish asapPedant 03:07, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
    • Keep. It looks like the guilty side is whining about having a hand caught in the cookie jar. If, after all the investigations are finished, they are innocent (not likely), then edit as needed. Otherwise, please keep it up. The public has a right to know. Also, Netoholic's track record seems sketchy at best.Shelly S. 5:08 HST Nov 11 2004 (no such user. func(talk))
33. Keep. A particularly poor article, but should be fixed (and cleansed of original research), not deleted. --Delirium 03:15, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
34. Keep. Bad article, good issue. ]] 07:46, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
35. Keep. The article requires cleanup and caretaking, but the subject matter is not a "conclusion searching for evidence". Whether real or simply a massive "internet blog rumor mill", it is notable either way. func(talk) 07:51, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Keep. (unsigned. func(talk))
36. I say keep it. It is certainly a poor page now, but it might mature into a proper article in the fullness of time. ]
37. Keep Essential for the world to have fair info on what happened in a country which says it wants to be a model of democracy for the world. Essential for wikipedia. Of course it should be written fairly, with verifiable information, and this will need time. --Pgreenfinch 11:36, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • Keep I believe the point of this article is to point out controversies in the election process. The fact that these controversies do exist should be reason enough to keep this article until this national debate concludes. --anon 206.253.219.206
38. Keep Needs some ironing out, though, but I see no reason for deletion. -- AlexR 14:37, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
39. Keep. Given how many blogs have been reporting this, it's definitely not NPOV if we don't have an article on this. There's certainly enough information here for this topic to merit its own article, though I do agree some things ought to be merged with other articles. Outright deletion isn't a good idea, though. Even if the information is inaccurate, we're supposed to cover as many POVs as possible fairly, regardless of their veracity (i.e. Holocaust revisionists). Johnleemk | Talk 13:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
40. Keep --Tagishsimon (talk)
41. Keep although this article is premature now, in six months time, tracing down the information will be much harder. In the meantime, I addied a {{current}} tag. That should stay until some serious studies are available and at least until GWB is finally made president (assuming they manage to hide the fact that all the voters actually voted for Nader :-). (feel free to revert if this is against some policy) Mozzerati 21:58, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
42. Keep. RyanFreisling 17:06, Nov 12, 2004 (EDT) Based on the criterion on Misplaced Pages:Deletion_policy, deleting this entire page is an absolutely unreasonable response to contested content. The entire page does not warrant deletion, in that the ONLY criterion voiced as {potentially} applicable in the 'May Require Deletion' section is thus far 'Original Research', which can of course be addressed in process. Methods and Processes exist for discussing the issues intelligently (esp. scrubbing invalid, original research), and opting for deletion is not a reasoned response to the natural differences in interpretation and opinions that make up this Wiki article. Honestly, I think this request is ill-considered. (this was my, unsigned vote.)
    • RyanFreisling has only about 20 edits, registering for this discussion. -- Netoholic @ 07:31, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)
    • Thank you for not removing my vote altogether, but I fail to see why that is relevant. Examine my contributions. I believe your posting this here, short of any inference of my eligibility to vote, and despite the extent or NPOV of my contributions here (since I registered), is against the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers. Why is your observation at all relevant? It's a bit offensive to me. I am no sock puppet. -- RyanFreisling 07:56, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
43. Keep. -Sean Curtin 01:34, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
44. Keep Why not list arguments for the opposing view (that there is no controversy) in the article instead of listing them in a vote for deletion? And if there's significant evidence that the controversy theory is a minority view, cite sources. Charm 02:08, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
45. Keep Article does a fine job of being unbiased and bringing to light important issues related to the 2004 presidential election. --Vote by an Anon user

    Anonymous votes do not count. ] 02:58, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

46. Keep is important issue, will be cleaned up and made encylopedic over time - Drstuey 05:31, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
47. Keep. The article is a dog and the editors who are claiming this is a "serious investigative effort" need to remind themselves that Misplaced Pages does not serve as a medium for original research, but there is controversy and there were irregularities. Report them as bald facts and leave the interpretations to the bloggers. May I add a note of deprecation for Netoholic? Listing a page for deletion because you were losing a fight over its content is not the wiki way. There's way too much heat expressed in this debate and very little light, and you've been pumping the bellows! BTW, I'm a fairly new editor, no one's sockpuppet and I'd like my vote to be counted.Dr Zen 07:13, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
48. Keep. I agree with the points made in the summary of the opposing view. It has been mentioned in the media and it's a valid subject. Deleting because the article isn't perfect does not follow current deletion guidelines. If it's bad it should go to cleanup or some American WikiProject. ] 09:10, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

    I think the article needs a lot of cleaning up, but sending it to cleanup doesn't automatically produce results. The issue is whether anyone spends time fixing it. The energy that has generated 70kb of talk here could've gone far in that direction. Yet, I'll admit, I'm weak-willed -- as long as this food fight is going on here, I'll read the VfD in preference to doing real work. JamesMLane 03:54, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

49. Keep. I am not a sock puppet. CheeseDreams 11:08, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
50. Keep. An incredibly well sourced article. Not all sources stand up as reliable but at least by giving sources it allows the reader to judge for themselves on its reliability. Definitely an article we should keep. FearÉIREANN 14:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
51. Keep. While I think the article could be better written (for example, it omits pre-election criticism of poll results, perceived bias in the "So-Called Liberal Media", recount requests in Ohio & Florida and any mention of Karl Rove), this is a topic that very much needs to be handled, no matter how controversial. One may dismiss this as just another conspiracy theory, but many people are currently interested, & will be in the future, if only to understand just what was eventually shown to be mistaken. -- llywrch 17:30, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
52. Keep. Article may not be perfect, but entire Misplaced Pages is a work in progress anyway. -- Nils 20:40, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
53. Keep. I am not a sock puppet. A"shii"baka ✎ 21:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
54. Please don't delete it. There is information in the article that merits inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Tim Ivorson 23:01, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Comments

This was moved by Netaholic to the talk page, however the talk page doesn't show up on VfD! This is highly misleading, so I'm putting it all back in again. Another unilateral move by this user. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:58, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• This VfD isn't formatted in the regular way, and some possible choices, such as redirect, aren't listed. Should someone reformat it? Rhobite 20:23, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Choices on VfD are either Delete the article and history, or Keep and make suggested fixes (merge, redirect, etc.). This format makes votes on either side of that line easier to tally. -- Netoholic @ 20:27, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
    • We shouldn't be focussing on tallying vote counts, we should be focussing on reaching consensus. anthony 警告 21:30, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • I'm pretty sure we can't.  :-{ Baylink 21:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• I agree with Anthony about consensus. The VfD is diverting energy from the normal process of improving the article. When Netoholic was urged to raise his concerns on the article's talk page, he responded: "I've tried that in the sections above. Now users are re-adding those sections and dubious data and removing my disputed tags. That is why I have lost patience with this group. I have requested outside comment on this article, and if that does not work, then I will ask for deletion of this partisan junk." His RfC had been posted at 17:59. Netoholic then made this VfD listing at 20:01. Apparently, he "lost patience" with the RfC process about two hours after he began it. JamesMLane 21:40, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • If you refer to the actual talk pages and user history pages in question you will see that Netoholic's claims about engaging in debate are simply false, he engaged in absolutely no debate and acted unilaterally with the full knowledge that others disagreed with him and played games damaging all aspects and sub aspects of the page. He only went through the semblence of debate after he was rebuked and many noticed his actions. His history and the timeline of events can convince you more than anything I can say here. Zen Master 22:02, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I agree with this. You should note that I wrote the following on Netoholic's talk page:
      • Further to this (I notice you archived this after like 1 hour on your page!) Perhaps you could stop making unilateral moves like blanking the page and redirecting it to a similar yet not quite related page ? Also, more things to look out for: don't just revert with the same edit summary (see , to which ZenMaster asked you to "rv please discuss your changes on the talk page and give proper time for others to respond" , to which you (ironically) reverted again with exactly the same edit summary . You forced me to revert you because you didn't bother to discuss this to come to some sort of consensus. Then you moved this text to the talk page : however you could have copied it into talk and not removed it. This was reverted , and you again reverted this with the text "(rvt. do not re-insert un-verified data. source it in the Talk, and then re-add)" . You then reverted again, only this time you were so eager to revert that you altered removed another users edits! I note that you wrote: "(rvt. I am here to protect WP's data integrity)". I find this ironic. Later on you did it again!!! Stop that! - Ta bu shi da yu 03:10, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
• If I may, I think the unsigned keep vote above is very telling: "this information needs to be known, ESPECIALLY with the mainstream media burying the story." People, however well intentioned, seem to be confusing us with Indymedia. We're not. We're not a news sources. We're not a forum for debate. We are trying to build a freely available encylopedia. There's an article on electronic voting that could use some solid NPOV editing with general information on the subject. This doesn't help. - RedWordSmith 21:52, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • There is nothing to say that we must only listen to "conventional" news media either. There is nothing that says that we should value conventional media information higher than community-driven media either. — David Remahl 21:56, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I don't agree with this request for deletion, but I agree with Netoholic that certain users are making it hard to remove POV from the article. Rhobite 21:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • You're right, we aren't a news source. Thats been done by House COmmittees, a few zillion web pages and online media, expert witnesses and probably about 1/2 the worlds media outside the USA. What we are is an encyclopedia, and I say if we can provide an article on subjective matters such as gayness then we can for sure find a way to present the information available in the relevant sources without advocacy or opinion. FT2 06:11, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
• Do we need to organize the votes? There appear to be two additional votes for 'keep' outside the Keep/Delete structure (Anthony's and possibly the one below this comment).
  • Also, the comments that the opinions are 'activist' and 'partisan' are erroneous and do not contribute to the dialogue. Posting information that has not been disproven which demonstrates irregularity in favor of a certain candidate, especially in the absence of evidence of similar irregularity favoring the other candidate, is not activism or partisan, it's the ongoing effort to separate truth from fiction. My apologies if this comment is in the wrong location/page. (66.108.161.196)
  • I would recommend *manually* numbering the votes, so that removed votes are clearly obvious.
• I find it immensely amusing that here we have Netoholic, using what one person calls "every trick in the book to get the article either discredited, tagged as disputed or outright deleted, and who manually moves the opposing point of view to the very end of the VfD so nobody will read the responses to his VfD smokescreen -- because he wants to delete an article which lays bare evidence of voting irregularities!  ;) FT2 00:38, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Look, I supported Kerry, and strongly oppose Bush, and think there may well have been voting irregularities. But this article is pure crap, and embarrassing to Misplaced Pages. It's a bunch of amateurish correlations posted on blogs by people who obviously have no idea what they're doing. Causal claims are then suggested from these relationships without any attempt to correct for demographic factors; for the rural/urban distribution of voting machines; or for really anything else. There is no analysis of possible explanations and their relative likelihoods; there is really nothing at all except some random correlations. There is a high correlation between rates of ice cream consumption and murder too, but that's a meaningless statistic. Likewise with these statistics. To reiterate, I think there may well have been vote fraud, but that needs to be demonstrated with some respectable studies, not some random guy with a geocities webpage and an ImageShack account who obviously doesn't know the first thing about statistical analysis. --Delirium 03:29, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

That's not a valid reason to delete. These issues can be fixed. Being "embarrassing to Misplaced Pages" never stopped things like Holocaust denial, and these were cleaned up to be quite respectable. - Ta bu shi da yu 04:04, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, I didn't vote to delete. =] I do think 90% of the material in the article is not worth keeping though, and it should essentially be rewritten from scratch. This will probably be easier to do in a few weeks when more detailed analyses have been performed by non-Wikipedians. --Delirium 11:20, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

While I appreciate that I may hold a minority view in this vote, it is still my view that this article (not the issue itself) is a scourge on Misplaced Pages. Warriors are in charge of it, removing tags indicating the specific dubious information, and using attacks on me rather than addressing the article's problems. Even those voting Keep here are expressing major concerns. I ask now that in the interest of congeniality, that all personal comments stop now. Discuss the article and its merits. I am open to personal discussion with anyone here, so long it is not from an attacking posture. I stand by my history with this article, which shows attempts to fix and communicate the problems. -- Netoholic @ 04:27, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

I agree. Though we can't talk to you about this properly because you keep insisting on removing comments from your talk page when people want to discuss things with you. You won't even let me place it on my page, forcing me to protect it archive1, archive2, archive3 and archive4. My final word on the matter. - Ta bu shi da yu 05:25, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Netoholic - The problem with your approach to this article has been explained several times now, at least 5 or 6 by myself alone, with each point meticulously sourced and verified, and several times by others. My question is, I would like to know which aspects of it are "pure crap". The letters (two in 4 days) sent by the House Committee asking with alarm for a GAO investigation? The official polls of .gov websites showing voters who don't exist? The experts who testified on their identical concerns? The overseas press? Or what? Please justify the "its pure crap", on the talk page, because in my book you haven't even come close to beginning to make a case for it.

The only cases you've made have been to overlook every wiki policy page you've quoted - Verifiability, Cite Sources and Original Research. All inadequately drawn upon, each one of them. Mix that in with a load of blatent deletes and labels that others dont see as you do, a template TFD and now an article VfD, and thats why you are getting the short end of it right now.

What I want is fact not weasel. Go to the talk page. List out now, the exact sources in the article which you feel are misrepresented right now as more reliable than they are. List any data or presentations (maps etc) that are apparently unsourced. List the information claimed which actually is unverifiable. Do it now. Do not add tags, do not delete, learn to work with us, and if there is merit in your ideas, when examined neutrally, be asured there will be people who will see that. If they fall apart under scrutiny and people feel that actually its OK by Wiki standards when you doubt it, then you may have to accept their opinion and ask questions instead of just going it alone". You've found that doesn't work, both in the article, the talk page, the template deletion attempt, and now here. Then we will have good quality debate.

Part of that debate will be to stop jumping to "let's go delete it" but to instead go "lets see if we can find better evidence to substantiate and fix it". Or maybe "lets label it so the source we do have is clear". You need to help do that, too. If evidence or information exists relevant to this question, its your job as a wiki-ist to give it the fairest presentation it can have too. This is not an attack. I want people to work with you. But if you're a rogue wiki-ist and can't or won't, then this will be how others will respond. So far the response for whatever reason is about 10-1 against. FT2 06:11, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Responding to Netoholic: Personal comments are referring to your history in this matter, and are not "personal attacks". I welcome your criticism of the page, but the techniques you employed to harass and damage every aspect of the article were unacceptable. You ignored or didn't even bother to check for talk page decisions, listed everything for deletion, revert warred with many people, and were rebuked by people that don't care about the page -- I could go on. If you have valid concerns with a controversial article then you should be spending more time on the talk page, and less time making unilateral changes. The "prime directive" of wikipedia is debating your point of view on a talk page when there is controversy, not making unilateral changes because you believe your interpretation of wikipedia guidelines is the correct one. The ends do not justify the means. Zen Master 06:20, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Note: He's at it again!!!! Netaholic shifted both FT2 and my own text to the bottom of the page!!! I had to roll his edit back! Netaholic, seriously, you aren't helping your case in any way! And I wasn't terribly interested in this article when I started out (with the exception of the talk page reverts that I now regret). I'm certainly interested in this article now. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:43, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Don't insert your comments in between mine, please. Respond in your own section. -- Netoholic @ 06:53, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
    • I can and will. I'm not breaking policy by doing this. Neither is FT2. We will do so if we feel we need to correct the record. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:56, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
      • Other than the fact that I have asked nicely. Please just stop fighting. You're winning this vote, leave my statement exactly as I presented it, please. -- Netoholic @ 07:00, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
        • I'm not trying to win!!! I'm trying to present facts and gather consensus. I would like to work this out civilly, but you keep removing sections and blanking that page. Not only that, but all discussion with you is impossible because you keep removing all comments on your talk page where you perceive people are criticising you. This makes it impossible to have a normal dialogue with you. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • It's my understanding that an article deletion is not a contest to be won by any means necessary. ]] 07:39, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Handling sock puppet votes

There are obviously a large number of Sock puppet votes in this VfD (users with far less than 100 edits). Should we list them here, or mark them on the main vote page? -- Netoholic @ 07:33, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

It is possible to recognize possible sock puppets by apparent new users who know their way around the Misplaced Pages system and who may vote on articles for deletion or vote on issues, for example, in their first few edits. -- from Misplaced Pages:Sock puppet

When did we go from "possible sock puppets" (emphasis in original) to "obviously ... Sock puppet"? -- Antaeus Feldspar 07:44, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I know that I'm assuming bad faith here, but the author has an agenda. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:39, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mo0 counts the votes So... based solely on red link userpages, that leaves 28 keep votes there. And unless there are about 25 sock puppets (which I highly doubt), the overwhelming consensus still stands. What's the point in this case? ]] 07:45, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have to say that I am not a new user. I have a red link because I never got around to editing my page, but I've been on Misplaced Pages from the beginning. --Butter 18:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Butter has 3 edits from before this vote began. Special:Contributions/Butter It makes a vote look really bad when so many "new" people start voting on it... please don't do it. (Kind of ironic, don't you think, given what the vote concerns?!?!?!) func(talk) 19:09, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I had forgotten my password for the longest time and I have made contributions anonymously, if you can check my ip addresses you can see for yourself. --Butter 19:15, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, fine, but I don't understand why you are persisting with this. Please read our policies regarding deletion policy, deletion guidelines for administrators, and sock puppets. I am not suggesting that your vote is improper or was made in bad faith, but it does look questionable, which makes the side that you are voting on look bad. (I am on that same side, by the way). func(talk) 19:24, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

delay and obfuscation? Preventing improvement of the actual page (remember that? If not, it's at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities --RyanFreisling

Author knows many tricks to try to change the voting pattern. One of them was moving this to the talk page. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:39, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

We've discovered where all of the brand new usernames are coming from:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=41925&mesg_id=41925

Which 'we' do you mean, is that Hillary's Vast Right Wing Conspiracy? Me thinks thou dost divulge too much... --RyanFreisling

Every single new username and anon vote that is on this page voting "Keep" should therefore be discounted if not deleted entirely.

And may I say, from a personal perspective, that this was disgusting on the part of whichever one of you did it. Since we can't exactly prove which one of you did, feel lucky. And you accuse Netoholic of somehow tainting the vote or acting unethically while this crap is going on? Reene (リニ) 09:08, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

From the profile page of that poster, they are "Member since Nov 10th 2003", "Number of posts 2647", "Gender female", "City Naples", "State Florida", "Country US", "Hobby animal lover". -- Netoholic @ 09:11, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)

Please point to policy that says that they are not allowed to vote! - Ta bu shi da yu 09:13, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's Misplaced Pages:Sock puppet, in case you've missed it. From the page: "When in doubt, follow the 100-edit rule. While sock-puppetry accusations may be irksome and, at times, hasty, accounts are not considered to be immune to such accusations until they have acquired 100 edits, with preferably nontrivial variation. (If, say, 150 edits were made to the same page by an account, it might actually validate presumptions of sock puppetry.)" Also, "Misplaced Pages uses a "one person, one vote" principle for all votes and similar discussions where individual preferences are counted in any fashion. Accordingly, sock puppets are not permitted to vote in any Misplaced Pages election, nor are they allowed to participate in any similar procedure, such as polls and surveys or the discussions at Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion and Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship. Voting by sock puppets is disruptive and unnecessary for any potentially legitimate use of sock puppets. Proven sock puppets may be permanently blocked if used to cast double votes." --Slowking Man 09:24, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

There's no dispute over the policy of Sock Puppets, but what no one has demonstrated is how it's applicable here. Under the fractious logic above, all new users are assumed to be Sock Puppets if they come here from another site. How is this different? If that link pointed new users here in order to vote, and individuals do so intelligently and according to the WikiWay, and in so doing contribute to the final accuracy and informed-ness of the page itself, how does that make them Sock Puppets? Help us understand how that is 'disgusting', 'ballot stuffing', etc. >yawn< --RyanFreisling, early/late in the morning. (5am EDT)

• A vote about Election Irregularities is subject to ballot stuffing. And they say Americans don't do irony.

The displacement of the idea that facts and evidence matter by the idea that everything boils down to subjective interests and perspectives is -- second only to American political campaigns -- the most prominent and pernicious manifestation of anti-intellectualism in our time. -- Larry Laudan,.

I'd vote, but whats the point? This one's going to the Supreme Court any moment now. -- GWO

There's been plenty of irony to go around here. Challengers on the ground, keeping the lines long and the process broken. I hope it does get resolved soon, because we need to focus on fixing/modifying/clarifying/informing the page itself. Isn't that the goal, rather than erasing all discussion of the issue? --RyanFreisling

The irony is not lost on me, I assure you. However, this is a matter of some seriousness. That someone decided it was a good idea to artificially inflate the votes for their own personal interests and the fact that a newbie admin is backing it up simply because his own POV is supported by it is dangerous for Misplaced Pages. My faith in the objectiveness of the system and especially in the admins to be fair and NPOV whenever possible has certainly been shattered.

I have no doubt this will end up getting tossed out without consideration, though, due to the actions of some users. The vote is tainted. At the very least there should be a redo...And somebody still needs to go through and delete the unmarked/anonymous/sockpuppet votes. Perhaps I should. Reene (リニ) 10:11, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

I politely request that you do not remove votes according to your own attribution as Sock Puppets or otherwise, as your input is a matter of record for the Admins' consideration. If the NPOV is broken, let's fix it there and stop this parallel conversation in the votes page. We now have 4 different pages where one ought to serve Misplaced Pages best. If that is an important goal, I suggest we stop talking about a tainted vote to delete an entire wikipage, and instead improve that wikipage. That is the WikiWay. Let's try to observe Misplaced Pages:Civility and a sense of mutual commitment to the truth. Every 'tactic' in the book seems to have been brought out to sideline work on the main page, and that is what is dangerous for wikipedia. This page is not a political battleground, it's supposed to be a resource. --Ryan Freisling

Renee, I think that there is a clear misunderstanding of what a sock puppet actually is. A sock puppet isn't a newbie user, a sock puppet is a user who more than likely is a duplicate account holder. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:24, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, it's a matter of rule that you must sign your vote and that anonymous users cannot vote. Why shouldn't I at least go through and delete these? Please give me one valid reason.

Please point me to this "rule". You won't be able to, because there is no such rule. It is up to the discretion of the administrator who does the final count whether or not to count the vote. Personally, I wouldn't, but it's up to individual admins to ork this out. Also, even if there was a rule that anons cannot vote, that is no reason to remove the anon's vote if they aren't counted anyway! - Ta bu shi da yu 14:02, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

because as I understand it, the rule is that anon votes don't count, not that they can be removed by someone with the inclination, nor that anonymous votes cannot be submitted. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the Admins can make those decisions (which votes count) in the course of their ponderances. --RyanFreisling

RyanFreisling is correct. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:02, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Many attempts have been made to improve the page by removing POV and links/information of (sometimes highly) questionable veracity in favor of waiting for information on the topic that is of a less dubious nature. Due to a handful of users' personal vendettas against Netoholic, most were reverted for no good reason (though edits by other users seemed to stick better). The issue was also discussed exhaustively on IRC, where a certain user took to resorting to personal insults and attacks whenever the conversation was getting back on the track of actually improving the article by refining it and removing what most in the room agreed to be questionable content. I myself was called a "racist" completely out of the blue and for no good reason during the course of this.

I believe the WikiWay here is that a user doesn't just remove / eradicate / shift whole areas of content that are attributable nor refutable to your satisfaction, you work to better attribute or refute it. That's how these issues are to be dealt with. I didn't participate in much of that earlier (Zen, Neto and others), but it really ought to stop. We have a 3-revert rule and other good community-building habits that should guide our behavior. We should be constructively working on the encyclopedia entry, not arguing here about these things and seeking to obliterate articles, votes, ideas and comments. Also, I don't think the content of offline IRC conversations are salient here, except in seeking to avert or end personal attacks, which should be taken to mediation. Claiming what's going on here is a vendetta against Netoholic to me seems incomplete at best, dismissive at worst. Can we all mutually and move on to the task of making the wikipedia entry itself better?--RyanFreisling

Also, the only admin here has already made it quite clear he has no intent on being objective or NPOV in this situation, not to mention he's personally involved in the article. When I'm able I intend upon asking several other admins that are not involved to come and handle the issue. I believe Ta bu shi da yu for this reason would agree and should resolve not to use his abilities as an administrator to alter the article further or this page in any way. I hope you'll agree that's fair given the circumstances. Reene (リニ) 10:39, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, this is not fair. Are you saying I'm not allowed to edit the main article or this page? If you think this, I'm rather afraid you are wrong. Perhaps you could read Misplaced Pages:Administrators before saying such things. You also need to be aware that I will not be the person who counts the vote, nor have I ever wished to do this. If you knew me better, you would see that every time I have gotten involved in a VfD that I have asked another administrator to perform admin tasks on the article and on the VfD page. You should also be aware that I am the one who asked Netoholic to place this on VfD (though others also suggested this). I think that your characterisation of me as the big bad administrator who uses his powers for evil ends quite unfair. I suppose that this is the price one must pay for being an admin however, so I won't complain. I'll just state how I feel about your characterisation of myself. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:10, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Are we negotiating administrators? I don't think that's for users to demand. I look forward to Ta's response here. So, don't delete anyone else's contributions wholesale until he can, okay? I'm sure you'll agree that's fair as well. --

My comment: I will not be doing any administration work on this page. I will not be ending the vote, nor will I block it. I might do a rollback, but that's only because its convinient. I will be using this page as a normal editor, as is my right. I think that perhaps Renee is new here, because as Misplaced Pages:Administrators says that "Sysops are not imbued with any special authority, and are equal to everybody else in terms of editorial responsibility". I think that accusing me of not being objective is quite unfair and I would ask Renee to stop saying this, though I won't stop her or change her edits if she does say this and it's her POV. I am, however, definitely allowed to express my opinion. Just because I've been given admin access does not stop this. If it had, I would have refused it. I actually think I've been more than fair, however. I certainly haven't been the editor who has moved the comments to the talk page so those viewing the VfD page can't see it! I only put these back because I view such edits as an attempt to subvert the VfD process. - Ta bu shi da yu 14:02, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You'll notice I'm not voting to delete the article entirely. It's a valuble article (though perhaps best merged with the main if possible) with potential. At this point, though, starting with a relatively blank slate would be a Good Thing. I'm not trying to remove this entirely, quite the contrary, I want to refine it and make it into a good article. I tried really really hard to come to an agreement that would please everybody. I still am. But people artificially inflating votes and whatnot isn't helping matters. I requested that he not use his admin abilities in this matter because he's inherently biased due to his involvement in the article. As admins are supposed to be just like ordinary users, merely with special abilities, I think I'm well within my right to request such a thing. I also agree the childishness needs to stop (and seems to have for now at least). Personal attacks don't get anybody anywhere, and that's where much of my irritation with this whole issue comes from. Reene (リニ) 11:17, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Renee, I appreciate that you are just trying to fix up the page. I agree that it needs fixing. But this is the Votes for deletion page. Though I don't oppose Netoholic for putting it here, I do oppose that we remove the page. I am not a lone voice in this however. Even without the new users, the vote so far is not one of general consensus to delete. I also ask you to stop requesting that I stop admin this page, because I have not been "admining" the page using any special actions (except for rollback, and it's trivial for any other editor to do something similar). I have no intention of doing the final count, because I am well aware that I have a conflict of interest here. Please assume good faith over this! Allow me to make this crystal clear: I have no intention of admining this page! - Ta bu shi da yu 14:16, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank you. I was referring to the page in question as well, however, not merely this VfD entry. At least for a short period of time. You admit there's a conflict of interest- that's big of you, thank you.

You must realize that every time I've tried to assume good faith on this issue I've been burned rather badly. Hence why I'm temporarily abandoning assume good faith unless I see a good faith effort being made first. I see you making one, that is good enough for me. Reene (リニ) 01:16, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

The actual effect of this whole deletion process is to keep the "This page has been listed for deletion." notice on top of the article to cast a shadow of doubt over it's whole content during the process. As the author of the VfD intended it to be, this effectively prevents the page from being used as a reference on the subject. Since the page is now well indexed by Google ( http://www.google.com/search?q=2004+election+irregularities ), the main message it conveys is : this is just another internet hoax. This maneuver is a dirty trick that exploits the reputation of Misplaced Pages to damage the whole investigative effort that is currently being conducted, and this should be an important concern. IMHO, this whole VfD constitutes a procedure abuse by a single individual. Please consider it's fast resolution as an emergency. Eric514 21:28, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Seconded and added to with a request:

1. The vote seems obvious, and neutrally no guidelines are breached. Can we close this VfD sooner rather than later?
2. If anyone sees a post on any message board out there asking people to "vote" for it to not be deleted, you have my permission to add a post in my name as follows:

"As the originating author of this article, I would ask people not to vote either way who arent actually wiki-ists already. It skews the vote and frankly thats wrong whatever side you're on. I wrote this article, and even so, if it is genuinely and rightly voted for deletion then it should be deleted. I believe it has merit and I believe it will be voted as a "keep". But however annoying (or even spurious), there is a right on Misplaced Pages for a vote to be called, and that right has been exercised. Please respect it, and let it play out untampered. - FT2" FT2 22:36, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Well it's good to know other people agree that kind of behavior isn't acceptable. Reene (リニ) 01:16, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Small quote to think about, from WP:NPOVD:

Probably the only grounds on which there could be an NPOV dispute over an article that actually was acceptable NPOV is when one or both of the parties to the dispute did not understand either the NPOV policy, or enough about the subject matter to realize that nothing controversial had actually been said. For example, ideologues, when presented with an article that has exemplary neutrality (as per our policy), will consider the article biased precisely because it does not reflect their own bias enough. Probably, such people simply do not understand the NPOV policy. FT2 02:04, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

• From trenace: There's nothing wrong with presenting some alternate information clearly as such, but making such appear to be an overall analysis of a thing, in this case the legitimacy of the election results with implicit view that abnormal, fraudulent, or disenfranchising irregularities occurred, is in my opinion not worthy of an encyclopedia. Now, having long been a Misplaced Pages reader but not wishing to edit where I didn't have the basis to, I have only one set of edits, on a mathematical subject. And above it's been pretty clearly stated that therefore even a vote from such as me is "suspect." But does this mean I have no interest in Misplaced Pages maintaining a high standard and good name? This case is unfortunate. It appears to me a partisan effort from the start, frankly. It appears to me that any effort by anyone to make this article more neutral, to achieve anything like a full balance of "alternative" points on the one hand and on the other, facts from election officials and conclusions from sources generally considered authoritative that results are correct, lawful, and legitimate is likely to result in partisan efforts to recast the article back into delegitimizing the election; and so many, while seeing the problems, will not wish to so edit. I would not care to, for example. It seems clear to me that the author and others wish to present as strong a case as possible for calling the election into doubt, and to give nearly as little weight as can be to far weightier -- by any ordinary standard -- evidence of legitimacy. Why have an edit war, or have feelings that edits for the purpose of greater balance, a more mainstream view, will be attacked or are unwelcome? Why not instead retitle this page to something making clear that it is attempting only to explain how some people have some accusations, but even there, in an even-handed way within the text strongly acknowledging that this is not the accepted judgment of either election officials or major news organizations.

Because the election is not over. The voting is. This is the time where examining issues like this is appropriate, and so this is now part of the national dialogue. A controversial part, hence the rationale for the page's existence. Recounts, provisional and absentee ballot counts, etc., are a part of this 'discovery' process, and results have not been certified, nor a President inaugurated, so it's not true to say there is an 'accepted judgement of elected officials'. And the country is experiencing unprecedented numbers of election irregularities of all description. A recount has been requested, not on the basis of a close result, but rather due to reported irregularities. If it's reason for NH officials to grant a recount, the reason for this page is clear. At least until the Electoral Votes are delivered, it's premature and perhaps complementarily partisan to outright label this a 'partisan effort'. The issue is not 'casting something into delegitimizing the election'. There are legitimate issues with the election's legitimacy that are currently under legitimate investigation. -- RyanFreisling @ 12:09, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ironically, I agree with most of the sentiments of Ryan. Like Ryan (who voted keep) I don't agree with deleting the whole page. The page needs significant NPOVing and cleanup. At the same time, those who are trying to do this (like Netoholic) need to stop making unilateral edits and learn to use the talk page more! - Ta bu shi da yu 12:21, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)