Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:58, 13 September 2006

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This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

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• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Allowing page movers to enable two-factor authentication
• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

From SledDogAC

The information I have added to the webpages is all correct and verifiable. I have provided documentation for what I write, in sharp contrast to AKMask's edits. AKMask doesn't want wikipedia to be neutral. This person has an a pro-Iditarod, pro-musher agenda that he or she only wants the public to know. If wikipedia wants to be held in high regard, it will ban administrators and editors like AKMask who act like dictators to keep facts from being told. I certainly don't deserve to be banned. Here's an example of what I've added and what has been repeatedly deleted by AKMask: (removed due to enormity)

The Rockets

Hello,

I don't know all the rules or procedures of Misplaced Pages, for that I apologize. However I have attempted to edit the page for "The Rockets" with some but not total satisfaction. One of the definitions you have posted reads as follows:

"Crazy Horse (band) — An American rock and roll band which was originally named "The Rockets".

In fact the Crazy Horse band was only one of at least two bands that have used the name the rockets The Detroit band mentioned was probably more well known as "The Rockets" than The crazy horse band was. While Crazy Horse is certainly notable, They used that name for a year or so, The Detroit Rockets used the name for 10+ years. and can still be heard frequently on Detroit FM stations.

The second, as one of your own admins pointed out, was a well known Band from Detroit. They put out 6 albums total, had several songs that charted and were formed by two of the former members of the "Detroit Wheels" Their singer sang for a period with Ted Nugent. They were the opening act for major bands of the period such as Kiss, ZZ Top, amungst many others. They had some but primarily local Detroit sucess with such hits as "Turn Up The Radio", "OH Well", "Takin it back" and others. They deserve more than a "See also, Detroit Wheels" I would be happy to attempt to do them better justice but I'm not sure I would be the best person to do so given my inexperience of WIKI and all the ins and outs, formatting ect. I will probably never find a reply so it may be better to send replies to crider.john@comcast.net

Thanks

See the following links:

http://www.johnny-bee.com/ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Street/2818/ http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=3550 http://madrabbit.net/rockets/

Possible sockpuppet of Cute 1 4 u

Hello I believe that this user New York from Flavor of Love may be this indefinatly blocked user Cute 1 4 u. Check this dif and talk page Leroyencyclopediabrown for the possible proof. If I'm wrong on this I appolize in advance but Cute 1 4 u does have a history of sock puppet and ban evasion. Æon _EA! 02:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

In addition I once I commented on that user being suspicious the comments that were made by New York from Flavor of Love were removed. Æon _EA! 02:20, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but this looks somewhat similar (Cute 1 4 u did once create an account impersonating Raven Symone). I'd file a RFCU. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:33, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it, thanks I will should I post the findings here or will not not be needed? Æon _EA! 02:34, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Any findings in the RFCU should probably be posted here unless it comes back positive and she's indef-blocked right then and there. But it looks somewhat definitive, looking at the user's edit history. --Coredesat talk. o_O 02:39, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Coredesat. I caught one of hers last week and the writing style is VERY similar to here other socks. I will post the finding once they come in. Æon _EA! 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The account *could* be blocked per WP:USERNAME I think... "New York" was in fact the nickname given to a real contestant on the first season of Flavor of Love (generally only the nicknames were used on the show) and thus this name more-or-less falls afoul of the "Names of well-known living people" clause. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

After looking at the userpage and what BoG said, I decided to issue the username block. User:Zscout370 04:59, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it absurd how much people-power is being thrown at stopping an alleged 11 year old female sockpuppeteer from "abusing" Misplaced Pages as a social network? --  Netsnipe  ►  04:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I take it from your use of quotation marks that you disagree with the characterization of social networking as an abuse of Misplaced Pages? Choess 06:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, based on this diff and the message the most current IP placed on Leroy's talk page, it's definitely her. She thinks she can hide stuff by deleting it. Ryūlóng 06:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just call me Ed.=) I apologize to everyone who has been trying to contact me overnight. I (obviously) was sleeping. Anyway, I think that Cute 1 4 u should be given one more chance. Two reasons for this. First of all, she doesn't have to keep making new accounts just to prove her point. Second, it removes the hassle of blocking EVERY SINGLE account she makes. We all know she's going to make more and more accounts.--Ed 12:58, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, she was blocked for Sockpuppet abuse, impersation, Vandalism and the 11 year old part was just added ammo to the case. And the Check user came up possitive. Æon _EA! 18:35, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

New York from Flavor of Love and 75.34.176.105 have both been blocked indef as sockpuppets, although I thought that IPs shouldn't be blocked indefinitely. Was there an exception made? --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 18:38, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

You know that she's going to make a new account anyway! What's the point for all of this hassle? This is a complete waste of our time! If we just give her a second chance on Misplaced Pages, less time for us working on her case, and one more volunteer Wikipedian.--Ed 02:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 u welcomed Starcare, who is likely a puppet of Publicola, who is likely a puppet of Pepsidrinka. Hard punt. Lots of socks involved here.--Scribner 03:15, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

You see? The situation's getting worse. The only solution is to back off or get more admin power.--Ed 03:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Scribner obviously has something against Pepsidrinka, so I'm taking his comments with more than a pinch of salt. – Chacor 03:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's way too much of a stretch. Ed, sorry, but Cute 1 4 u has just done too much. Yeah, she'll keep coming back, and she'll continue to contact you, and we'll continue to deal with her. If she realizes that she's not helping, then we'll stop blocking, but as long as she continues to contact you and admit that she's who she is, then we have to block her. Ryūlóng 04:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Ryulong, I'm not the only one she might want to contact. Do you even realize that she could be lurking around Misplaced Pages right this moment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed (talk • contribs)

75.34.12.156 is another one. Posted on my talk page Æon _EA! 07:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about this IP you found, but I think we should wait until she does something else before we take action against this IP.--Ed 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It was blocked it was her (The post admited it) Æon _EA! 00:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

How long is the block? --Ed 00:41, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Another Possible one Prple space mnky@hotmail.com edited with the summary Got to keep it real on edit summary (Dif ) a phrase that she used many many times as her qoute. Caught this one while monitoring recent changes Æon _EA! 00:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is Cute 1 4 u. If I had any socks, I'd admit them. I already told you all of them. But Ed is right, I'm trying to prove my point. --75.33.230.133 02:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not Prple space mnky@hotmail.com , User:Starcare, or User:Publicola. I swear, I don't even know them. However, to prove my point, all i can say is that i have a new account and I am much nicer on that account. Ed is right. --75.33.230.133 02:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I may have found another sock and I requested a check user (Came up again on Recent changes, edits article that were created by other socks with teh same grammer an such) Æon _EA! 02:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

More or less confrimed the sockpuppet. Autoblock got it (See TV Lover) Æon _EA! 04:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Cute 1 4 u (or whatever) is going to get me a headache. I tried asking her why she's doing this on her talk page, but she said she's "going to commit 'suiside' ," or something. I don't know... I know this may sound stupid, but can't we block her IP address, so she stops creating these annoying sockpuppets? Cheers! The RSJ - 03:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She's on a dynamic IP, SBC, I believe (according to the WHOIS reports). There's not much we can do but keep blocking her new accounts. She's not committing suiside any time soon. Ryūlóng 05:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you please clarify your statement? "Committing suicide"? Is it literal or figurative? --physicq210 05:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Prob Figurative she is 11 years old and has a history of being overly dramatic. Æon _EA! 05:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

She'll be back tomorrow, probably recreating that article of hers. Ryūlóng 05:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

NinjaNubian

I have reported this user to WP:AIV, but they told me to go here. Repeatedly vandalizing both Alpha Phi Alpha article.

Copy of discussion below.

• NinjaNubian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) repeatedly damaging FA-Class Alpha Phi Alpha article. Has been warned through edit summary and on talk page repeatedly. Added spam on my discussion page. Also, has been banned before for vandalism. Bearly541 07:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Looks more like a content dispute, to me. You might consider dispute resolution or 3O instead. Luna Santin 07:19, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Used SOCKPUPPET 64.131.205.160 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) in previous vandalism. He was reason why Alpha Phi Alpha was in protection status. Bearly541 07:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
      • He appears willing to discuss his edits, and it really looks like more of a content dispute, to me. You're welcome to try dispute resolution or a post to WP:AN/I, but I'm of the opinion that this isn't a case of simple vandalism, unless you have something more convincing. Luna Santin 07:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
      • No, he is a vandal. Trust me. Please look at IP and his talk page. Also, please protect article to CC's revision, because he deletes timeless efforts without merit. Bearly541 07:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
        • He is also vandalizing Kappa Alpha Psi. Bearly541 07:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Bearly541 07:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, all three users (NinjaNubian, Ccson and Bearly541) have been severely misconducting themselves by constantly edit warring, while they should have gone one step further with a RfC instead. As I am just the one user, I cannot open a user conduct RfC on these guys (which I believe was warranted), but I did open a RfC on the content matter. As I can see, there are several violations of WP:3RR, WP:CIV, WP:AGF and WP:OWN. Errabee 04:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

vandalism of Utonagan page

There have been repeated occurences of vandalism on the Utonagan page within Misplaced Pages. These have implied that Utonagan have wolf content or are related to other wolf-look-a-likes who have wolf content. They have also mentioned behavioral problems which do not exist in the breed, and have even gone to the extent as to imply that they originated from alaskan dogs with wolf content.

As the foremost breeder of Utonagan in the country, these have become more than irritating.

The TCP/IP address of the user known to make these changes is: 212.36.181.65

With thanks

Nadia Carlyle

www.twatha-utonagan.com

User:Plautus satire

I'm not sure whether this is an AN/I matter, or just something that should be forgotten. This (now-perma)-banned user has spammed a number of Admins (including me) with unblock requests. (Quoted at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Plautus_satire&diff=next&oldid=74273379 , although that may technically be a copyright violation.) I didn't participate in the last round, but his (6) edits in this round don't see to me to be a violation of the rules, or even of common sense. On the other hand, it looks as if his actions last time warranted a permanent ban, so I'm not really asking for a review. Could someone point me to the RfAr, so I can see a summary? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arthur Rubin (talk • contribs) .

You can see the completed requests here Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Completed_requests. (I got one of those e-mails too.) What a lovely thing to read on a Monday morning. Antandrus (talk) 15:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's clear that PS is beyond rehabilitation. After waiting out his last 1-year ban, he immediately launched into baiting Raul, and even his unblock request includes attacks against Raul. This has been going on literally for years, and it's been mostly forgotten. Let the issue rest. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been spammed. Support indef ban. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe that he's indeed (as Arthur Rubin relates) been indef blocked and posted here, seeking consensus for community ban. There were no dissenting voices, IIRC. yes... see Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive134#Plautus_Satire ... hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 20:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Based on the contents of the email I just got, I don't think an indef ban is long enough. --Carnildo 20:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It might not make a difference, but it might send a message if we blocked him for a defined period of time, say, 1,000,000,000,000 years :) . RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 20:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This user has been badgering me through email, starting with the same spam from above. Apparently unsatisfied with my well thought out responses, he's resorted to threatening me 'when the revolution comes'. I have copied the email thread to my server right here. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 23:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Me as well:  ALKIVAR™ 12:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Raul654 and Phil Sandifer have blocked me indefinitely after two one-year bans, I have not even edited a single article since the previous ban expired, and already Raul654 has instigated his personal vendetta against me. He is a menace to wikipedia and an overinflated fat toad with way too much free time on his hands. If you are able to, help me reverse this ban, I have done absolutely nothing to deserve it except defend my edits as vigorously as Raul654 and his pals and alts have done. Help make wikipedia a better place by not only reinstating my editing priveleges but also by helping me get Raul654 removed from wikipedia. He is a destructive influence who lets his personal feelings about people cloud his reason and close his eyes. He is a spiteful, wretched man, let's clear him and his kind off wikipedia. Any reply is deeply appreciated. For two years this bonehead has been harassing me on wikipedia and hiding behind his admin status. I know for a fact not every admin on wikipedia is his friend. Be my friend, help me fight back against this fool.

Plautus Satire

Celebrity impersonator

I think Emma-rose-roberts (talk · contribs) should be blocked for having an inappropriate username (as per Misplaced Pages's username policy you are not supposed to use "names of well-known living or recently deceased people"). See Emma Roberts. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 20:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to give the user notice and a time frame to change their username as well as pointing them where to do it instead of just blocking? This way they are not so razzled by a forceful block. --User:Zer0faults 20:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's quite common for fans of a celebrity who is not-so-familiar with Misplaced Pages policies (and who commonly skip disclaimer messages) to adopt the name of said celebrity as their user name. A gentle nudge is better than a big stick in this case. --Deathphoenix ʕ 20:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about that, but the according template message for such blocks says that users are encouraged to simply create a new account after the block (which is much easier than changing a username). --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 20:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I suppose with a mere two contributions, creating a new account is better, but I wouldn't call this account an impersonator. Most likely, it's just a fan. --Deathphoenix ʕ 13:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't indef block me (2)

Just a suggestion, but reverting the last few edits on Andrés Manuel López Obrador, which might be seen as vandalism, and sincere, but fractured attempts by other anonymous users to revert these possibly-vandal edits, might be a good idea.

Another possibly good idea would be to protect the page. Or, then again, you could randomly accuse long time editors with over 10,000 edits of sockpuppetry and indefinitely block them for suggesting that WP:BLP is, indeed, a policy. No doubt you'll go for the latter with no evidence to support your position. Cheers, freestylefrappe 23:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is starting to get a little obnoxious. Why are you bringing this here instead of to the article's talk page? For that matter, none of the injunctions passed against you recorded in the RFArs you're involved in appear to restrict you from reverting vandalism. You're just required to maintain one identity given a history of bouncing from username to username, and you were desysopped a long time ago. Seriously... this is starting to smack of disrupting Misplaced Pages's normal function to make a point. Captainktainer * Talk 00:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought you were an administrator.. why the hell would I bring up concerns about vandalism on the talkpage? I was blocked for: a. Reverting vandalism, and b. Adding references. My history of "bouncing" is necessary because incompetent admins who abused their power, violating various policies, tried to enforce their own POV on less powerful users. My desysopping is completely irrelevant, and you know it... or you dont know it, and you shouldnt pretend to. This is not at all a WP:POINT violation. I'm allowed to be as sarcastic as I want. You don't like it? Then quit Misplaced Pages or establish WP:SARCASTIC to prevent such editing. Cheers, freestylefrappe 02:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if you had been blocked for what you claimed you had been blocked for, that wouldn't prevent you from pointing out the relevant matters on the relevant talk pages. JoshuaZ 02:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't read most of it, but is at least sarcastically annoying and totally unrelated to improving the encyclopedia. —Centrx→talk • 03:28, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Category for middle/elementary schools

I have modified Template:Schools in jurisdiction to remove categories for middle and elementary schools because they encourage articles on nonencyclopedic topics. I am inviting broader review of this, and ideally help speedying (via CSD A7) articles on middle and elementary schools (but not school districts), via currently accepted practice. I don't believe we should have categories that encourage articles that should not be created. --Improv 01:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Schools are inherently controversial on Misplaced Pages, so only obvious speedy candidates (like attack pages, no-content pages, or patent nonsense) are speediable. Any school entry on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion will attest to that. Schools aren't organizations or individuals, and don't fall under A7. --Coredesat talk! 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

If the template is harmful, nominate it for deletion. Do not modify it so that its useless to the end-user (a navigational template with only one link is rather pointless). That's similiar to page blanking, and is bad. If you oppose the existance of any category, then go to CFD. If you oppose the existance of articles, go to AFD. But, disabling navigational template, is incomprehensible. Also, a7 does not apply to schools, and is designed for articles where there's a clear consensus they shouldn't exist. Please do not try to bypass community discussion and consensus, to remove that which you personally dislike. --Rob 02:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do not do that Improv, there is not a consensus to do so and your assertion that these topics are non-encyclopedic is incorrect. Silensor 04:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Lets' not get off track. Which/what schools are notable is irrelevant to what User:Improv did (see here). The template, is designed to navigate between the different categories in any given jurisdiction. Improv removed all but one of the links to the categories, essentially disabling the entire purpose of the template. Improv's actions are similiar to page blanking, only worse, as it leaves behind something visible and useless, that our readers see (e.g. if I'm in a high school category, a link back to the high school category, with no other links, makes little sense). Discussions for the template, can proceed at TFD, but dont' belong here. Category inclusion goes to CFD, and school inclusion goes to AFD. General school inclusion issues might go to places like Misplaced Pages:Schools. But Improv's actions in this case, are quite unacceptable, and so far, there's no proper explanation for them. --Rob 02:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Anon IP (Static): Personal attacks against several users, POV editing etc.

OK Before you all jump on me "OMG!!!ONE!!11 USE DISPUTE RESOLUTION" there is already a RFC open on this user. I was content to leave it at that. However, the IP is STILL inserting uncited, blatantly POV edits to several pages despite repeat warning. See talk page User talk:68.35.182.234 for an example.

BTW before I proceed further: apparently the IP is User:Devin79.

Now look at the talk page: The IP is ranting on and on about the users he's edit warring with, (and I'm not one of them, for the matter), threatening them, attacking them, etc. It's incredibly uncivil, and I'm sick of reverting his edits. I issued him Test4, but I think due to the severity of his talk page a block is needed.

See RFC for the user

The IP has been blocked multiple times for 3rr rule, and is the first user I've ever seen to get a Defamation template posted on their page.

Now the conversation on that talk page is not particularly civil from both Jdorney's or Devin79 end, but here are some of the highlights:

"Not to worry...jdorney will not be with Misplaced Pages much longer." "I have informed Misplaced Pages staff about his biased and unprofessional behavior, and have recieved back that Misplaced Pages will look into it. It is sad that Misplaced Pages has to be hampered by a few biased, purposely innacurate Editors, who ignore facts and make up their own...just to support their own one sided views." "I will file another complaint with Misplaced Pages about you, and I will continue to edit this article to ensure that it is professional and not the work of some biased little editor, who is more interested in pushing his own views then he is in the facts." "Either you don't bother to read them, or you read them but ignore them because you are so biased in your beliefs that you only include facts that support them, and in some cases you lie altogether. How in god's name you are allowed to continue to be a Misplaced Pages editor is beyond me" "Get a hobby And stop wasting people's time with things you know nothing about Jdorney 12:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)" "This is just plain sad. This guy is so biased and pathetic, that he has to immediately revert ANY facts that he decides are "Not in keeping" with his own, highly biased and anti-Republican point of view."

Note: The page is hard to read but it appears the indented conversations are Jdorney and the left aligned ones are Devin79's.

Now, I think some sort of blocking on the IP is in order, as he's been repeatedly asked not to make POV edits without citing sources, or discussing in talk. I'm specifically referring to Special Activities Division, but I haven't really looked into Jdorney's side of the RFC a whole lot. If it were me, I'd suggest 1 week, and if he continues, increase the length by a week each time. Thoughts? ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 01:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Further, I should note that the Devin79 account was blocked for reverting Bot Image removals repeatedly, and warned about the legal implications of doing so, and then warned against using sockpuppets. There are currently allegations against Devin79 that he is using his IP address to get around the 3RR rule on some page: I don't remember which one since I'm only concerned with the SAD page, but its listed in the RFC I believe. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 01:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I took a long look through the contribs and what I see is scary - persistant, intentional, subtle vandalism designed to undermine or defame the articles subjects. They've had more than enough warning - that defame template was from April. I've indef blocked the account and blocked the ip for 6 months. Feel free to adjust as necessary. Shell 03:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Wanna nuke some linkspam?

I found an article Internet Marketing Services which looks like blatant advert/linkspam. Doing a special:linksearch I find a bunch of talk pages and user pages with more link spam belonging to users with no edits other than to their own talk and user pages. Some admin needs to track back the links and delete them.

Other links involved include:

• *.creditiskey.org
• *.insidethelionsden.com
• *.keywordcompanion.com
• *.breiterstrom.com

Thanks. Thatcher131 (talk) 02:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I replaced all of the talk page spam with {{spam}} notices. – ClockworkSoul 03:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • And I whacked a couple more. Also found spam for *.extremebizmakeover.com. james 03:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The WikiProject Spam would love to hear about linkspam you've found. We clear out lots of simple spam through there. Also check out the {{linksearch}} template for linking to the linksearch specialpage. Kevin_b_er 04:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Pussy Galore (talk · contribs) behaviour

diffs and behaviour synopsis here:

1. . Removes speedy on article with claim he was right in the middle of improving it.
2. After speedy is put back, He goes to several pages and areas looking for support for removing it even though the individual clearly lacks any remote notability.
3. After being told when a user could remove a speedy , he ignores that and removes it with a vague assertion. . No evidence to support it, even though its already been shown on the talk page there is no notability to this person.
4. Makes claims of huge google results and blames it on "data centers", then continues to make circular arguments and dodge the issue of his claim to evidence of the notability of this individual. His claim to improving the article consists of adding vague claims and unverifiable information to the article in question and not producing anything to support his claim here.

Clearly something off here if you follow his pattern here, and comes across to be trolling to me.--Crossmr 04:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've noticed this person around and observed a certain quality to the general pattern of edits that, in the interests of civility, I will describe as often having a certain "under the bridge" quality about them. Metamagician3000 06:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As you can see on my and Pussy Galore's talk pages, I share Metamagician's concern about the user's attitude. But is there anything wrong with removing the speedy tag? The notice box says to remove it if you intend to fix it. We should probably change that if it's not the behavior we want. Also, the user did edit the article minutes before the speedy tag, so the claim of being in the middle is plausible. I agree the vague claims and general behavior are an issue, but an actual magazine (albeit an unsavory one) published an article on the guy, so I don't think opposing the speedy is in itself unreasonable. William Pietri 06:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I gotta agree with Metamagician here. ⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 10:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've indef blocked this user for egregious trolling. I won't reverse anyone who undoes the block, but you should make sure to look at his or her contributions before you do. In nearly every edit he is simply stirring up, dare I say it, drama. Nandesuka 11:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps if Chairboy did not visit this users page and accuse them of being a sockpuppet, then misquote policy stating that having alternate accounts is against the rules, the drama would have never began. Oddly I predicted this would happen right after they voiced their support for CB, what an odd series of events. So where can I go to ask a user be unblocked and have the decision reviewed? --User:Zer0faults 12:16, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just in case people are unaware Raymond Lemme had an article written about him in Hustler on his apparent suicide Featured story: Orlando Weekly Indymedia Examiner --User:Zer0faults 12:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Separate issue: why should this user not be blocked for inappropriate user name? --Nlu (talk) 12:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Cause that would allow the user to just make a new name. As you can see by their talk page, Chairboy instead was looking at Sockpuppetry accusations instead. I find this odd that Chairboy and Nan both were involved in the CB discussion and Chairboy picks a fight with Galore and then Nan lays the block for "trolling", even though Chairboy appeared on Galore's page first with accusations, nice vice versa. Shh.. there is no cabal. What did Cyde say, we have to stick together? --User:Zer0faults 13:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

While in principal there is nothing wrong with removing the speedy tag, it started to strike me as odd when this person spent an hour on various talk pages and discussion pages trying to establish he could remove the speedy tag, but after being told he should provide evidence of notability, he dodged the issue and made a vague assertion about the individual and removed it. I had no idea about this other dispute thats going on, but his behaviour here came across to me as someone who was trolling or playing games as I repeatedly requested that he provide this information, and his only response for a long time was to make up some false claim about how he was getting entirely different search results for the same term.--Crossmr 13:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

MaxContent (talk · contribs)may be a sock, see his comments on the AfD. Only edits to that article and the AfD.--Crossmr 13:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

So you think an idef block is ok for a user who was having trouble bringing up information on google to refute the speedy tag? I had trouble as well until I stumbled on the hustler article and found out that its best to leave his middle initial out to help get results, as you see I posted 4 articles on him, that doesnt include the numerous blogs that are not WP:RS or sources I was not really familiar with or I knew were bais like DailyKOS. --User:Zer0faults 13:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There are methods to proving if someone is a sock, An/I is not one of them. If you have an accusations it should have been brought to the appropriate forum, especially if that affected your judgement. --User:Zer0faults 13:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hang on - was it an accusation Chairboy made? It doesn't look like one, it looks like a valid request - If a user has sockpuppets that they used to use, maybe they should make an appreciable effort to be friendly, and declare them. I find it hard to believe she forgot the account names, and even if she has, surely it's not tricky to look at an article's history and note them down? It's only polite. HawkerTyphoon 13:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes it was, Chairboy misquoted WP:SOCK in stating the user was a "malicious sock" because they had edited under multiple accounts before, accounts the users states have always been abandoned before starting a new one. . --User:Zer0faults 13:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Where did I call PG a malicious sock? Care to provide a diff? - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"I'm guessing that despite the language in the beginning of your please that you're actually wanting people to stop accusing you of being a malicious sock, but you don't argue the fact that you are, in fact, a sock puppet." This would be on par with me stating "Copperchair wants people stop calling him a foolish admin, but he does not artugue that he is, in fact, an admin" If this phrasing is permitted please let me know, I will put it to good use. --User:Zer0faults 14:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you please rephrase that in the form of... english? I'm afraid I don't see the accusation. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I can, its your quote, if you feel your writing is not understandable as english, that is really your own problem and hurdles you must overcome in your personal life. There are classes available that will help you write better, I can do some research just let me know if you want me to find some for you. --User:Zer0faults 15:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

(sigh) Once again, I'll ask you to provide a diff of where I accused PG of being a malicious sock. Your english comprehension joke is quite clever, (golf clap), but it still doesn't provide an example of what I'm looking for. You may wish to re-read the excerpt you posted above with this in mind. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Umm we already covered its your own comprehension, hence why you do not understand your own quote ... I am not sure the joke nor the problem. "If you want people stop thinking you cant read english perhaps you should stop admitting your own quotes arent understandable in english." See the jump from a major to be based off a minor. You stated if he didnt want people thinking he was a malicious sock, then he shouldnt have admitted to having been a sock, though actually he admitted no such thing. He admitted to having other accounts in the past. Again let me know if you need me to do that research for you. See you said he admitted to something he in fact did not, see editing under more then onename is different then having edited in the past under a different name, reading comprehension indeed. You can reference WP:SOCK on instances where its ok to edit under multiple accounts at the same time, which was not the case this time. So the user clearly does not fall under the sockpuppet label. --User:Zer0faults 15:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I think I see the nature of your misunderstanding. In the quote above, I said merely that he had admitted to being a sock puppet. You appear to have misread the sentence and interpreted it as me calling him a malicious sock. That's not correct. I've said that there were things he could do to prevent folks from assuming that he's a malsock, but that's certainly not the same as accusing him, no more than telling a teenager "Remember to obey traffic lights" is accusing him of being a criminal. Glad I could be of assistance. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 15:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You are as much of help today as you have been ever. I am glad this is all cleared up and we can both tackle the issues in real life we need to handle. --User:Zer0faults 16:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

To Zer0faults: It wasn't so much that he was having trouble finding it, it was his mannerism indicated that he supposedly had the material but wouldn't share it.He didn't really state why he felt the individual was notable, just that he was notable. After another user grew impatient with his constant dodging, he was again asked to provide this supposed evidence of the individual being notable, and instead he said "You guys can argue, I'm going to go improve the article". Which consisted of a bunch of unverified and highly contested claims. He claimed to have gotten huge amounts of hits on google and blamed the discrepency on "data centers" and wouldn't provide a link to his search on which he got huge amounts of hits even though he was asked for it. If someone puts an article up for deletion and does a search and gets a low amount of hits, yet I do a search and get a huge amount, I'm going to link to it to show the difference. This individual failed to do so, and I see this as just another part of his behaviour where he was playing games.--Crossmr 21:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as an indef block goes, that might have been extensive, I was simply posting it here because I viewed his behaviour as suspicious and it truly came across as trolling to me. I never asked for a block, though its possible one might have been in order, as I said I wasn't aware of this individual or his behaviour outside of this incident. I thought it might be appropriate to have an admin or two to see if they saw trolling behaviour there as well, and if so, perhaps look at an appropriate action then (whether it was a block, a warning, etc).--Crossmr 22:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, I did not mean to come off as railing against you. If you view the users talk page there have been admins harrassing him since he came out in favor of CB in an admin to admin dispute. The quick jump to an indef ban over this minor situation is illustrated by that. What I am quite annoyed with is a perfectly valid article got deleted in the process, one that I have provided here 4 sources for, one being a hustler article. You can almost argue that a non porn related article in Hustler is worth more then an article in the newspaper, since a newspaper runs thousands of articles and hustler runs only 2-3 non porn ones a month. The worst part of it all is the article will probably remain deleted because if it was undeleted it would show the user had merit in the first place. I cannot attest to "data center" issues. However if you search for this person with the middle initial included, then without it, you will get a larger result list, then there is the peple who simply called him Ray Lemme. Then there is the few that have the middle initial spelled out. So using quotation marks is quite a problem in this case. --User:Zer0faults 00:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

To which he could of stated, but if you go back and read you will see he didn't. Even when asked. It would have solved the issue to simply provide a link to the search. If I ask someone a question several times, and instead of replying, they dodge the question, make vague claims, or otherwise to muddy the waters, I lose all assumption of good faith, especially when the behaviour continues over a long period of time as it did in this situation. I'm not commenting on the article itself here, but the behaviour of the editor. Also when the only other person around to defend the article was a brand new user who'd made no other edits, you'll forgive me if that doesn't scream sock/meat puppet off the rooftops. If there is a valid article to be had here per WP:BIO, I won't oppose its recreation, however it certainly can't be left in an unreferenced and weasel state that it was in before.--Crossmr 00:56, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Pussy Galore requested a checkuser on himself ostensibly to prove that his other sockpuppets were not used out of policy. He is now an indefinitely banned user so now his use of those sockpuppets would be to evade a permanent ban. I have requested that the checkuser admins use the information they already obtained to indefinitely ban the sockpuppets as well. --Tbeatty 06:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Black billionaires

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but can an administrator please review the deletion debate for Black billionaires and make a judgement call one way or the other? RFerreira 05:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. I closed it as a decided keep, though if I had to opine in it, I might have said "delete". Grandmasterka 05:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reposting request for removal of indefinite block ofKeepthefactsinwikiplease (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)

Hello, AMA advocates Amerique (talk · contribs · logs) and Addhoc (talk · contribs · logs) acting on behalf of Keepthefactsinwikiplease (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) have been unable to determine the supposed violations of WP policies that have merited an indefinite block. The blocking admin Nlu (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has indicated s/he would not contest someone else reducing the block, however s/he is not personally inclined to reduce this block. In this context, we would be very grateful, if there was a further review of this block. Thank you,--Amerique 23:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC) Addhoc 10:41, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I've reduced this block from indef to 1 month, and it is almost over. I'd remind the editor that continued entry of POV material may be considered vandalism, and the perhaps some of our other million articles may be more interesting to edit than StormPay. — xaosflux 05:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Addhoc 11:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the "This user has been blocked indefinitely from editing Misplaced Pages, per ruling of administrators, Jimbo Wales and/or the Arbitration Committee." tag from their userpage accordingly. Maybe a csd to hide the incorrect tag would be beneficial. Daniel.Bryant 09:05, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

75.3.50.41: Requesting Action

In the 25 hours he has been active on Misplaced Pages, 75.3.50.41 has caused widespread disruption throughout WikiProject Abortion, including inflammatory and anti-consensus edits/edit warring in pro-choice, Category:Same-sex marriage, Planned Parenthood, Talk:George W. Bush, pro-life, Guttmacher Institute, John Edwards, Marty Meehan and abortion (possibly more), as well as several violations of WP:NPA on various user and article Talk pages. This is my first time at the noticeboard, but I believe a block is in order. Thank you. --BCSWowbagger 05:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I had to step in to stop this IP making edits which amounted to vandalism, and even after that once I went to bed he seems to have continued blatant tendentious editing, which appears to have ended last night with him one revert away from a 3RR violation on pro-choice. He's stopped editing now, but I suspect this isn't the last of him. --Sam Blanning 14:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He's back at it as I type this, making the exact same edits as before. ​​​​​​Auburn​​​​​​​​​​​Pilot​​​​​​ 16:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The user has shown no attempt to compromise and reasons out that his/her view has to be said or no views must be said. The user disagrees that NPOV exists and his hypocrisy between labeling pro-choice not a social justice category while pro-life is shows the user's obvious bias. Gdo01 17:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for 48 hours, anon only block. KillerChihuahua 01:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Serial spammer User:Rdplindia

This user's only contributions to Misplaced Pages have been to add links to a commercial website. Everytime the links are added, they are removed by editors citing spam. User continues to add them back, regardless of reverts, now citing them as references rather than external links. ​​​​​​Auburn​​​​​​​​​​​Pilot​​​​​​ 06:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick update: Even after a warning from User:El C, User:Rdplindia has added the link to 2 additional articles. and . ​​​​​​Auburn​​​​​​​​​​​Pilot​​​​​​ 07:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I blocked the user indefinitely; all contributions have been spam. Grandmasterka 07:11, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

User:BADMINton

Can someone review his behaviour please? He has been giving people vandalism tags in content disputes, and when I asked him about this, he became rather hostile User_talk:Blnguyen#Personal_attacks.3F, so I would like someone else to have a look in case that I am too involved to act impartially, or at least give the impression of partiality. His posts since then leave me wondering about whether he is serious about editing here. In one edit summary he refers to User:Hornplease as "Horny", for instance. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 08:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Samir issued a final warning. Guy 09:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Despite explaining WP:3RR and WP:BLP to him, he continuosly broke 3RR by adding unreferenced and potentially libelous commentry. I've reported him to WP:AN/3RR. --Ragib 09:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The ban is unjustified and User:Ragib should peruse the policy (written in English) once again. Which text was "unreferenced"? Good Bloke 13:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Though the jibes at Hornplease were quite unwarranted, the trouble with User:Ikonoblast (formerly User:Holywarrior are not unique to Badminton. At least 6 users have been insulted, cheated, and affected negatively by Ikonoklast's actions. Soft discipline should be given to Badminton.Bakaman _Bakatalk 00:20, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

209.78.217.6: Requesting action

209.78.217.6 has repeatedly vandalized several articles over the course of the last few months. (A random sampling of his edits according to his contributions page shows that his edits are typically destructive and vandalizing.) I do not believe it is a dynamic IP (or if it is, it may be like my ISP and have a very long DNS lease, which results in keeping the same IP for months on end), so I recommend he be blocked in accordance with the WP static IP blocking policy. cluth 08:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

209.78.217.6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is a school IP and has been a source of vandalism (and nothing else I can find) for some considerable time. I have indef-blocked for anonymous users only, and allowed account creation. I have left a meassage on Talk saying this, and cleared out the dozens of old warnings and block messages. Hopefully this will do the trick. Guy 11:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

David L. Cunningham bio

David Loren Cunningham (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There is a section called "The Path to 9/11 controversy which references several articles that should be filed under the film and not under David Cunningham's bio. The writers are using sources that are not verified by David Cunningham, and have many factual errors, such as information from David's The Film Institute. The article leads to others that are also personal opinion rather that objective fact-based journalism. I've corrected it three times, and it reverts back each time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Keiko234 (talk • contribs) 08:57, September 12, 2006 (UTC)

The writers are using sources that are not verified by David Cunningham... Being the subject of the article does not imply veto power over its content. If sources are reliable ones, whether Cunningham approves of them is immaterial. --Calton | Talk 10:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

To clarify from my perspective...Keiko234 has been deleting huge swaths of the David Loren Cunningham bio with no rationale given in the edit summary and despite reverts by other users. Kukini 15:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda

On the article Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda, editors repeatedly insist on categorizing this individual a "Cult leader" when there is no information within the text of the article to back this up, and there are no sources quoted to back this up. These are serious and potentially defamatory accusations about a living person, clearly in violation of WP:LIVING. I have warned the offending editors multiple times, and reverted the article multiple times, but they keep making the change back to "Cult leader." Dr U 09:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

This is part of Dr. U's uniilateral campaign against the Category:Cults and Category:Cult leaders. He's already tried this stunt with other articles, including Scientology and Lyndon Larouche, to opposition from different editors. Now he's looking for official cover for his work, it looks like. See to see what he's been up to. --Calton | Talk 10:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have now sourced the claim, which was trivially easy. I hear the sound of a heavy barrow being pushed here. I have left a warning on Dr U's Talk page, which he recently whitewashed. This is clearly one to watch, friends. Guy 10:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Bazzajf

Bazzajf (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) has been blocked several times, most recently for a month, for incivility. He has come back, and thus far has made precisely two edits, both of which are incivil. I am wondering whether to (a) warn him, (b) block him again for a week or (c) give up and indef. Guy 10:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd go for indef. Right now all he's doing is being incivil towards people, nothing he's doing seems to be even remotely benefiting the encyclopedia, either directly or indirectly. --Lord Deskana (talk) 10:36, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. I have indef-blocked, unprotected his Talk and asked him if he has any intention of actually contributing to the encyclopaedia. Let's see what he has to say for himself. I hope he does not use this length of metaphorical rope to his own detriment... Guy 11:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good call. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 12:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well he didn't seem terribly happy about it. Guy 15:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

ice cream

Dear admins,

I noticed that ice cream has a picture of a man with a sign saying "ninjas killed my family - need money for kung-fu lessons": thumb|I fail to see the Ice cream connection... Quite funny, but perhaps inappropriate? PER9000 13:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I would have to say I've never seen Dairy Queen offer that flavor... However, just for reference, vandalism can be reported to Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism instead of here. Still, thanks for the heads up. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 14:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've reverted it and given the user responsible User:=Ben a final vandalism warning. As Ryan says, reporting to WP:AIV will probably get you a more prompt response in future. Demiurge 14:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'll add your link to some userpage of mine for future use, keep up the good work :) PER9000 14:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

OMG! Someone thanking admins insted of yelling at them, this is unprecedented! Thank you very much for the kind smiley face. RyanGerbil10(Kick 'em in the dishpan!) 14:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

AN/I will now promptly self-destruct. --W.marsh 14:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

We better give the user a long block so they don't make the mistake of being nice again. JoshuaZ 14:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. ju66l3r 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Just kidding...I'm not an admin. :) ju66l3r 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack and improper language in image copyright status dispute.

After some dispute on the source and copyright status of an image, User:MrGater used very strong words to ask for an end to the dispute, explaining, among other points, that "Nobody gives a f... anyways". --Abu Badali 14:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Blocked for 48 hours. —freak(talk) 14:34, Sep. 12, 2006 (UTC)

Is collecting links to contributions harrasment?

On top of User_talk:FunkyFly there is a series of links to Special:Contributions page. Is this considered harrasment (because it gives a "I'm watching you" message) or is it just fine? --Dijxtra 14:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I could understand a list of dynamic/shared IPs given to vandalism etc. to help someone periodically review the contribs and take appropriate action. But offhand this seems like a list of people who edit largely Macedonia-related topics, not a list of vandals or anything. Nevertheless I think precident that keeping lists of people, even if your intent is mostly to antagonize by keeping those lists, is not actually against any particular policy. --W.marsh 14:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Dijxtra, you should assume good faith, but you know that dont you? It is merely a shortcut to avoid constantly typing usernames.   /FunkyFly.talk_  17:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sweetest Day

Could I get a temporary protect on Sweetest Day on the version here? User:Miracleimpulse is engaging in a POV edit war (you can see the spirited discussion about this article on the talk page or at User:Miracleimpulse's usertalk, complete with claims of "spindoctoring" against myself and other editors). Currently User:Miracleimpulse is appending his disputed version of the page onto the existing page. I don't want to break 3RR and I think a temp protection for a few days will allow the more NPOV version (with disputed tag) to be viewable while a RfC or RfM is pursued, where it appears this seems to be headed.--Isotope23 14:45, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment Isotope continues to delete sourced information from the Sweetest Day article. My edits delete nothing from the article. Please protect this version 1 which contains all the facts. Thank you. Miracleimpulse 15:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Admins always protect the wrong version. Seems that there is some evidence that you are the one pushing a barrow, Miracleimpulse (see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Sweetest Day Hoax). You have also violated the three revert rule. Guy 15:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggest community ban of User:Mccready from editing Pseudoscience articles for one month

Mccready (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has exhausted the patience of many editors of many pseudoscience articles. I suggest a one month ban from editing any pseudoscience article. The ban can be enforced by any administrator with a 31 hour block. Mccready is encouraged to use the talk pages of these articles to make suggestions about ways to improve the article. Many editors of these articles recognize his knowledge on the topics but can not deal with his insistence on editing the article precisely his way. This includes many editors that share his skeptical view about these topics. The other alternatives are a longer block to try and make him understand the need for consensus editing or an arbitration case. The community needs to act now because these articles are losing good editors out of frustration with having to deal with Mccready. I'm encouraging Mccready and the editors of these articles to comment here. Thoughts and other suggestions welcome? FloNight 16:06, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some backstory if I am not mistaken between FloNight and this user and with SlimVirgin. Seems FloNight supported a block that Mccready was unhappy with at one point. --User:Zer0faults 16:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been somewhat involved in the article and while I agree with a fair bit of Mccready is trying to do he has been stubborn and uncivil. However the article that is the focus of this (Pseudoscience) as a whole is such a complete mess with so much edit warring that I'm not sure Mccready is any worse than many others. No strong attitude either way. JoshuaZ 16:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please ask him, if no penalty is laid out, to stop using popups for reverting. Its creating a page where it looks like he is just reverting to revert, there are no edit summaries in most cases stating what he is objecting to, that kind of reverting may bother other users. --User:Zer0faults 16:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of reverting on all the pseudoscience and related articles for a long time now. Lots of disputed tagging of Category:Psudoscience on various articles, see for example Category:Alternative medicine. This is one of those simmering disputes and I don't think a block of one editor will resolve it. If anything is to be done it should go through RfC at least. --Salix alba (talk) 16:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Using popup for revering non-vandalism isn't a good idea. But this hint is even missing from Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation popups. --Pjacobi 16:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reversion is clearly warned against in WP:DR, however, which Mccready has been made aware of repeatedly. --Jim Butler 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

That's not the point. It's the question, whether popups reverting should be restricted to vandalism reverts, as are admin button reverts. --Pjacobi 18:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I understand. My point is that reverting is generally discouraged except in the case of vandalism (see also Help:Reverting), so the specific case of popups is no different. WP:ES talks about the need for leaving some sort of edit summary that's helpful to other editors. Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation_popups describes an option that lets the user be prompted to add an edit summary under popupRevertSummaryPrompt. Mccready's edit history for 11 Sept. 2006 does show a number of reverts using popups, some (not all) of which closely follow discussion on the talk page; edit summaries in such cases would help casual readers understand that you are indeed discusssing. Mccready, if you adjust your monobook.js file you should be able to use popups and leave an informative edit summary, which will improve others' assumption of your good faith. --Jim Butler 19:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with this ban - I have tried to reason with Mccready in the past over pseudoscience categorisation and it is not easy to do, but since his previous ban he has not caused any conflict over this particular issue. I hope such a ban will help him to change his attitude to other editors. --apers0n 17:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I support the ban too. I had a similar problem with McCready some months ago, and I'm disappointed to see it has continued with other editors. People have been very patient with McCready, and FloNight and Friday have both tried to help him, so I feel we should trust their judgment about how to proceed. SlimVirgin 17:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hmmm. I reviewed a sample of recent edits and found a mix of good and indifferent. For example, removing "Reflexology Works - Case Studies As To Why It Works" from reflexology is perfectly acceptable by me. Perhaps we should instead ban all the fans of these pseudosciences who keep inserting special pleading? Guy 17:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

He's exhausted the patience of many there. I support it as well. FeloniousMonk 18:25, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Support, though a "community ban" of one month in a specific subject matter isn't really a community ban, IMO. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I don't recall any personal run-in with McCready... I only know of him based on his edits, his comments and other people's comments about him. I just took the time to read through all of McCready's talk pages (including the archived ones). I see a lot of complaints lodged against him by a great deal of frustrated editors. I also took a look at his recent edits and took note of when he was recently blocked. In each recent instance of being blocked, McCready was warned against using pop-ups to do mass reverts. Despite these warnings, he went right back to doing mass reverts with the pop-up tool. He was also warned about making personal attacks or as we call them here ad hominem. Yet, McCready ignores these pleadings and continues to insult other editors and push his POV at the expense of civility. There have been many attempts to see if he would change his ways, but each time he disappoints us. I think we are done testing him to see if he will learn. It's time for the rest of us to learn. We can try this 10-day ban, but personally I don't think it's enough. TheDoctorIsIn 18:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Weak support. I still perceive some uncivility and uncollaborativeness. He's trending positive lately, using Talk pages to discuss more popup reverts than in the past, but still not all. (He says he uses popups to compensate for a slow dialup connection, but as I noted above, Misplaced Pages:Tools/Navigation_popups shows how to leave an edit summary when using popups). Smart editor, underestimates others' intelligence and good faith, needs to work on collaborating. --Jim Butler 19:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support with the chance for mediation. Misplaced Pages is a collaborative environment and he has repeatedly decided not to collaborate. You can tell by his edit history that he trolls for places to tag his opinions, mostly by deletions or adding pseudoscience to the category section. I can’t recall anytime he has added to the quality of a topic. The way he uses WP is not constructive and is disruptive to the whole process. I don’t care what he adds or detracts from the topic pseudoscience. That page is nonsense and full of unneeded negativity. A ban from that page by itself would be counterproductive. If he isn’t willing to change his editing, by contributing instead of “trolling and tagging” than I suppose a ban from the site, and not just a topic, would be in order. The admin needs to also make sure there aren’t any sock puppets coming from his IP address. Thanks for asking for my input. --Travisthurston 20:38, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inlined to support as well, although not all of Mccready's edits have been bad. However, he is quite disruptive, so a ban of some length is warranted. •Jim62sch• 21:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Uncivil. No Discussion. However I agree with the general argument that it would be useful to come to a categorisation of many of the articles selected by Mccready. Sholto Maud 21:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Strong Support One month. Is that all? His long history of polarizing articles and editors has wasted the time of many good editors. He has used heavy-handed edits and reverts with no discussion resorting to uncivil edit summaries. I have personal history with this editor and he already has been blocked several times. This list would be shorter if instead we listed those editors who haven't had problems with him. Steth 00:03, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Support. Mccready is always spot on with his targeted edits and I appreciate the heads-up for a weak spot, but his correction edit is usually just as POV in the opposite direction. His POV is important as it keeps everythng honest, but having to continually revert is disruptive and we can spend days on one sentence to get consensus then Mccready will come back and start it all over again with the same edit. Again the process comes to a stop. As long as his talk page comments remain civil and he is able to avoid ad hominem language, I would apprectiate his help. Maybe this way he can actually develop a rapport with editors that will be constructive.

Samir Bhadva (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

This is a sock puppet account of User:Lazy Bhadva, User:Crazy Bhadva etc etc used only for vandalism. Someone kindly block -- Lost 17:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked. --Sam Blanning 17:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Aakash Mehta - another sockpuppet, same vandalism, this time to my talk page. Thanks -- Lost 17:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Also blocked. --InShaneee 20:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Shell Kinney's block of ScienceApologist

I would like to question the block of ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) by Shell Kinney (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). The block reason was "POV pishing, removal of sourced information", neither of which are objective or valid block reasons. As far as I can ascertain ScienceApologist was simply editing an article on one of those fringe scientists to be more in line with mainstream scientific thought; rather than being "POV-pushing", this appears to me to be more "NPOV-pushing". As for "removal of sourced information", just because something is sourced doesn't automatically mean that it indefinitely merits inclusion in an article. Articles grow too long, they need to be trimmed, or maybe better information can be found ... regardless, removing some information is a natural part of the editing process, and does not appear to me to be a reason why someone should be blocked. Unless there are some objections I would like to go ahead and unblock ScienceApologist, as it appears to me that this block was inappropriate. I would also caution Shell Kinney to use more care in the future with her admin tools rather than simply blocking someone because she disagrees with him. Your thoughts? --Cyde Weys 17:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A Misplaced Pages:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard#ScienceApologist_.28talk_.E2.80.A2_contribs.29 came through the personal attack intervention noticeboard - it wasn't really in the right place, but after a day of looking into the issue it appeared there was a real problem with ScienceApologist pushing a POV on the article, up to and including removed sourced info and even replacing it with negative information from a dubious source. He's continued to edit war insisting on these changes and talk page discussion hasn't done much to help - in addition to incivil edit summaries, gems like Just because something is verifiable does not mean that we must include it when presented with information verifying the subject is a working "visting astronomer" at an observatory as opposed to his preferred "went on a visit to" said observatory. Unfortunately, the pattern outlined at the report, noted in the RfC and evident on the discussion page is that ScienceApologist is after the truth and discarding verifiability in the process. I left a note asking him to stop the behavior - he responded with a straw man on my talk and promptly continued his crusade.

So, in short, I've blocked him for 24 hours for tendentious editing, disrupting the article to push a POV and consistently violating WP:V on the article. His response was a fairly typical "heavy-handed" admin "ignorant" of the situation.... In any case, block here for review/adjustment/comment. Thanks. Shell 17:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You should have put that in the block reason then. As I currently see it, we have some people with strong beliefs on either side of this issue, and they need to meet somewhere in the middle through discussion and consensus. That can't be done if we simply block one side. However, if ScienceApologist is repeatedly reverting back to his preferred version and refuses to discuss, that obviously is an issue, and that should have been in the block reason and if it continues it should go to arbitration. --Cyde Weys 18:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely screwed the pooch on the blocking summary - I'll be more careful with it in the future. In my defense, I was writing this up here before the block was questioned, but that doens't excuse a sloppy summary. For the record, I'm not involved in the dispute and these folks seriously need to be using dispute resolution. Shell 18:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's fine. I'm not going to unblock now ... it does sound like it was deserved. Glad I decided to discuss first rather than revert another admin's actions :-D Cyde Weys 18:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Which specific edits does shell consider POV here? Considering that the filing was made by an established pseudoscience POV pusher, I have to question it's validity. I've reviewed SA's recent edits presented there and though he's been blunt, I see no evidence of "blantant" POV pushing or personal attacks. I consider this block questionable and too late (over 24 hrs after reported at WP:) to be anything other than punitive (blocking is not meant as punishment) and therefore am unblocking him. Please look a little deeper into those making the filings first next time. FeloniousMonk 18:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Specifically, the removal of sourced content he disagrees with and the addition of criticism based on a highly dubious comment on a blog entry - note that one of the statements he removed was from the Chicago Tribune of which he says "Chicago Tribune not a decent critical source." ; you might also note the heading change. If this is pseudoscience, it should be easy to come up with reliable sources to dispute the theories; there shouldn't be any need for underhanded tactics. Or despite two references to the contrary, continuing to insist "visiting astrologer" (connotation priviledges at the observatory) be replaced with "was asked to visit"? Or maybe removing background information calling it "cruft"? .

Basically, there's a wealth of things to choose from and attacking the character of the person reporting the problem isn't solving anything. The block was for his most recent complete reversion to his preferred version, not about the report on the noticeboard - please read the ongoing discussion linked above. If you disagree with the block, that's fine, but please, don't pretend this is acceptable behavior.Shell 19:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

In science, avoid citing the popular press (from WP:RS). SA stating that Chicago Tribune not a decent critical source is totally in line with policy and precedents. --Pjacobi 19:13, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Wouldn't this also make a comment on a blog a similarly poor source? Shell 19:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Lerner doesn't look to be a mainstream scientist, I don't see the issue with saying as much. That the person who filed the report has a long history of promoting pseudoscience at the expense of actual science is relevant, particularly when WP processes are misused to gain the upper hand over his opponents in simple content disputes, as his subsequent comments indicate . FeloniousMonk 19:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You're skirting the issue - this isn't about whether or not someone is a mainstream scientist. Again, I ask that you read the information provided. I reviewed the dispute for 24 hours before issuing a warning on the situation - my response had nothing to do with who initiated the report and everything to do with the actual behavior involved. Both parties should be involved in more dispute resolution. Its worth noting that the RfC I pointed out earlier had several people coming to the same conclusion about ScienceApologist's edits that I did. He pushes a mainstream POV and actively seeks to discredit those he considers fringe - in and of itself, not so much of a problem, but when it leads to constant reverting, removing verified information and being forced to support your opinion with some random comment on a blog, then it becomes an issue. Hopefully everyone involved can work on developing a consensus and remember that verifiability doens't equal truth. Shell 19:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV says "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Learner's work is viewed as pseudoscience. Thus SA when "He pushes a mainstream POV" is simply applying WP:NPOV. Again, where's the blockable offense? That SA "actively seeks to discredit those he considers fringe" is an assumption on your part. Much of the debate on fringe science takes place on blogs, as with intelligent design. FeloniousMonk 19:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

As FeloniousMonk and this additional caveat:

Whereas we are guided by WP:BLP to stay on the safe side in biographies, at Eric Lerner (and rather typical for not-so-mainstream-scientists) there is not only biography proper to be found, but also his scientific views and theories. I'd say that such sections have to take as much (of course sourced) criticisms by as a sepaarte article would do.

Pjacobi 18:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll add that I'm totally surprised that ScienceApologist has been blocked. I know him as probably the best editor of articles on physics we have on Misplaced Pages. It's possible that he went too far fighting over scientific truth (but even here I can understand his zeal as a scientist myself) but after looking into the article, I can confirm that he was as right as one can be. Whatever Eric Lerner does, it's not mainstream science. Friendly Neighbour 19:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Iantresman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics unsupported by research, and is not above wikilawyering or sailing close to WP:NPA himsef. Mr Apologist, who I know is a proper physicist and should be congratulated for remaining relatively calm in the face of such nonsense. — Dunc|☺ 19:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can not believe some of the comments here. ScienceApologist consistently removed positive verifiable information from the article, as I described, and has done so before .

• If the Chicago Tribune comment was removed because it is "not a decent critical source", why did ScienceApologist insist on including (a) information in another article sourced from Creationist Web sites (self published) (b) Add the "David Spergel" criticism,, whose only source appears to be a comment on someone's blog which fails Misplaced Pages's standards on reliable sources.
• It is irrelevent whether Lerner is a mainstream scientists or not, he still deserves respect and an NPOV write-up.
• I do not have "a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics". Just because a subject is not mainstream does not make it pseudophysics, and nor is mentioning such subjects POV pushing as described therein.
• And what do you mean that "Mr Apologist, who I know is a proper physicist". ScienceApologist is an anonymous, unaccountable editor. Eric Lerner has about 50 peer reviwed papers to his credit.

So we have one Admin (FeloniousMonk) calling me a "well-known pseudoscience POV pusher", and someone else (above) accusing me of "a history of POV pushing bizarre pseudophysics unsupported by research". Surely not discrediting comments? Thank goodness I didn't contribute to the ariticles on Gay/Black rights or Communism. --Iantresman 19:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

A few points. First, Iantresman's history is not intrinsically relevant to the matter at hand. If there is a general problem with Ian's behavior an RfC should be filed or some similar behavior attempted. That said, from reading the above, the only thing I can see from SA's behavior that is at all problematic is including a blog entry. Note that in some cases we have considered blogs to be acceptable when they are written by people in the relevant field whose names and associations are clear and publically acknowledge the blogs as their's. While, I don't think the blog in question obviously meets that standard the attempted citation of a source which does not meet WP:RS hardly seems block worthy. Now as a separate matter-Ian's report- I don't see any strong issues of personal attack problems. Ian should bear in mind that WP:NPA applies against Misplaced Pages editors. Calling the subject of an article a "woo-woo" does not as far as I can see even lead to a WP:BLP problem. The only other issue here might therefore be some minor civility concerns. None of this however is block worthy. Furthermore, the only remaining matter of concern-the blog entry-is not a matter for a personal attack report. If FM is correct that Iantres has a history of these sorts of erroneous reports then I would strongly caution him not to do so again. JoshuaZ 20:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Please compare Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Reddi 2. (If I remember everything right) in relation to that issue, SA got blocked by User:Ed Poor and User:Jossi, nearly left the project and stopped contributing under his real name. RfAr result completely cleared SA. --Pjacobi 20:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Trying to come back from very far afield and all the attempts to twist this around, the block was about completely discarding WP:V and sustained edit warring over a ridiculously long period of time. I asked very, very nicely for him to stop with the edit warring and was on my way to ask the same of the other major party (who, by the way, I would have blocked too if he wholesale reverted again). To clarify, there's no concern about mainstream POV being the prominent POV in the article. I can't see why ScienceApologist is insisting on a crap source just to get one more criticism in there (at 7, the article is hardly bankrupt of mainstream opinions). I don't understand why he's falling back on original research (his opinion of what a log means) to get a certain turn of phrase he wants. Above all, I'm not sure why this is worth constant edit warring instead of using the dispute resolution process. The aim, admirable - the methods, sloppy. If someone felt it wasn't block worthy, that's fine and why I offered other admins to change it at will but can we please stop pretending there's some moral high ground just because he has good intentions? Shell 21:22, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't argue with that, and I wouldn't - because I agree with it. --Crimsone 21:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• JoshuaZ, I would humbly like to note the context. I agree that a blog-sourced entry by itself is no reason to block a user. This is about bias. To claim that a positive comment sourced to the Chicago Times is "not descent", AND, then to replace it with a negative comment which is either unsourced, or sourced to a blog, is surely more than just an issue of reliable sources.
• In this context, of removing positive information (other examples ), to further remove the NASA-verifiable statement that Lerner was a "visiting astronomer" should be taken how? Where is the ambiguity, where is the contention? --Iantresman 21:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with JoshuaZ and FeloniousMonk. Nothing warranting a block. Also I suggest that in the future when you plan to block well established editors that you note it on AN/I for review before you block. This gives the community a chance to provide background information and context before the block. FloNight 21:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Flo, I did talk to other administrators about the issue - in fact, it came up twice in the past 24 hours. Even though other's felt that SAs behavior was getting a bit over the top, I still posted it here for even more opinions. You can look back through this board and see there's only been one other time I've blocked for disruption -- I don't use the tools lightly. I checked and cross-checked; people obviously disagree. It happens sometimes and its why I invite people to recind/change the block if they feel strongly different. Not once have I suggested SA should be reblocked or that FM can't view the situation differently, all I've said is that this was about breaking policies, not some arbitrary reasoning I pulled out of thing air. Shell 22:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Shell, blocking a well established editor with many good edits should be a very last resort. There needs to be wide community support. I'm suggesting that a full discussion with the community that includes the editor needs to occur before the block. Editors decide to leave the project or take prolonged breaks due to controversial blocks. If that happens in this case it will be a great loss to the project. FloNight 23:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Several editors have pointed out a misunderstanding of my comments here, so I wanted to clear it up. I am not defending the block - other administrators felt it wasn't warranted and it was reversed - done deal. The only thing I have a problem with is being accused of blocking because of bias, to gain the upperhand in a content dispute or out of some kind of malice. I also disagree with some editor's interpretation of SA's edits - I don't believe that unsourced edits or original research should be used for the "good" of any article. But again, other administrators felt this wasn't block worthy and reversed it and I have absolutely no problem with that. Shell 10:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

---

This dispute is created by the self-contradictory text of WP:NPOV in lacking clear and useable definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV. And in the absence of clear definitions of "bias," POV, and NPOV, packs of editors roam, ripping from Misplaced Pages whatever cited NPOV their dogma does not like. No administrator should have to justify blocking someone for deleting cited NPOV from a Misplaced Pages page. The explicit policy text of WP:NPOV should state that deleting cited NPOV from a page is wrong without replacing that scholar's POV with some clearer, cited, and published statement of another similarly partial scholar. After all, our job here is to "represent all significant views fairly and without bias" against any significant view. The murky and self-contradictory text of WP:NPOV must be rewritten to support NPOV--which is to "represent all significant views fairly and without bias." --Rednblu 22:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there a point to this trolling, Rednblu? KillerChihuahua 00:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that you cut the above ad hominem and this response to my TalkPage where I would be glad to discuss that topic with you when I have time, my friend. And the question remains: What shall we do to rewrite the WP:NPOV page to have clear and useful definitions for "bias," POV, and NPOV? --Rednblu 02:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

So there is no point to your trolling? Trying to avoid the question by accusing me of a personal attack where there was none is not an answer. KillerChihuahua 09:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

ScienceApologist responds

There's a few things I'd like to get straight:

1. Shell Kinney came into this situation very dictatorially and did not discuss her actions civilly with the other editors.
2. She did not try to ascertain what the conflict was and did no research into the history of the conflict.
3. She unilaterally blocked me for what she now admits was a different offense than the one in her blocking summary.
4. She did not follow the procedures outlined on the Misplaced Pages page that describes what to do if a block is controversial.
5. She did not get any input from any other editors or administrators before unilaterally blocking.
6. She did not warn me specifically that I was going to be blocked on my talkpage before she blocked me, despite my explanation on her talkpage regarding the matter.
7. She has made up false accusations about me (such as that I've been a consistent edit warrior in this article for a year)
8. Right now it seems that the entire issue is based on anger over a single sourced blog as a poor source? I'm not sure what blog in question we are dealing with, but if it is the preposterous universe blog, this is a well-respected blog by a rather prominent astronomer at the University of Chicago.

Furthermore:

1. There is no indication that she looked at talkpage/archives of the affected article.
2. There is no indication that she looked at the links I made on her talkpage about this conflict.
3. There is no indication that she considered whether or not this was a content dispute and whether it was appropriate to block over such a dispute.

As such, I think that Shell Kinney needs to take a good hard look at her shoot-first-ask-questions-later administration tactics. This does not look to me like the actions of an administrator who is working to defuse conflicts. Right now I'm just about as upset as I was back in the Ed Poor days, and we're still dealing with the fallout of that nonsense nearly one year later. I feel very disrepsected by this Wikipedian.

I would like an apology from Shell Kinney for executing this action without doing the proper legwork or research to justify it. Or at the very least an explanation of the points I outlined above. I hope she understands the gravity of these issues.

--ScienceApologist 21:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

1. I left a very civil message in which I explicitly stated that you might be blocked and pointed you to a list of the exact edits that were a concern.
2. There were more than 12 hours from the initial report erroneously filed on WP:PAIN and my note on your talk page during which time I researched the dispute.
3. My fault on the block summary; I was trying to write a better explanation here and should have done better in the block summary. It was not different, just horribly unclear.
4. I'd like to know which of the points about controversial blocks I failed to follow.
5. Yes, actually, I talked to administrators about it last night and again this morning.
6. See answer to #1
7. You said it had been a year . If you were referring to the extended dispute on other articles and not just this one, I apologize for misunderstanding the remark.
8. This is about the blog, the original research and the edit warring.

You did leave me a note and yet 10 minutes later, you blanketly reverted yet again which forced the issue. You rightly pointed out that you were not guilty of personal attacks; I had already made this point when the report was originally made and the note I left you certainly wasn't about personal attacks but the policy problems in some of your changes. I understand where you're trying to get with the article and its an admirable goal. I've mentioned elsewhere that your work keeping junk from becoming respectable by virtue of being listed here is remarkable. However, all the good work in the world doesn't entitle you to take shortcuts - you shouldn't use poor sources, you shouldn't use original research to justify wording changings and edit warring never gets anyone anywhere. If it wasn't block worthy, then it wasn't - that's preceisly why I posted here with the request for other admins to review and change at will.

Sadly, it seems that people are assuming an incredible amount of bad faith on my part. Shell 22:23, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You left a "very civil message"?! Sorry, you come across as incredibly condescending. You may not think that you are, but that's how you come across.

One wishes you would consider this

• Us scientists, we have put a fair amount of work into our degrees. Please respect the dedication
• Most everyone who has edited any science article will have come across a kook and his theory. The kook hasn't done got half the clue the bona-fide scientist has. We all have a very very short fuse as a result. Note: this isn't advocating against NPOV; this is saying that only with appropiate training one can put the kooky theory into proper context.
• Next time you bump into such a conflict do get help from someone familiar with this issus. None of us are paid to edit here. Dr Zak 23:01, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Dr Zak, then perhaps you'd appreciate more than most, that having put in a fair amount of work into degrees and research, that to have one specific editor (ScienceApologiest) remove your status as a physicist removed , to have your awards removed , to have your positive criticisms removed AND replaced with negative ones , taken TOGETHER, at the very least appear to be biased, if not bordering on an attempt to discredit certain individuals.
• These particular edits do not require any knowledge as a scientists, just the ability to read sources. --Iantresman 09:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Since you didn't respond to my points in turn, I'll bullet the list with my response:

• Your "civil message" was responded by me in turn on your talkpage offering my opinion on the matter. The next correspondence I received from you was a block. No discussion, no attempt to figure out what my editting was about, you just simply blocked me. Warning that a user might be blocked should be accompanied by a reason. The reason you provided was incorrect as you later admitted and it is still nebulous yet as you will say on other points on this list.
• Your actions leading up to the block amounted to you making a unilateral decision based on a list of links User:Iantresman provided. If you had asked around about this user, you would have found a number of administrators who would have cautioned you against taking him at face-value. I even referred you to a mediation cabal case to illustrate the point. As far as I can ascertain you did not research this user at all, nor did you look for the context of the edits he wrote down on the wrong page.
• You did not engage in discussion with me, nor, it seems, did you do your homework in regards to this conflict. You simply preached and made pronouncements. This is not conduct becoming of an administrator.
• Please show me where you talked to administrators about this before the block and where another administrator looked at the controversy and recommended you block me.
• The dispute with Iantresman was ongoing for more than a year, but it was not about the Eric Lerner article. Check the links I made on your talkpage for more. This is illustrative of the problems I have with your advocacy. You are not careful in your characterizations of history. It's very easy to check because everything at Misplaced Pages is logged.
• I reiterate that the blog in question is a perfectly legitimate source which you could have read about on the talkpage. The Preposterous Universe is written by a well-respected research astronomer at the University of Chicago. It is not an inappropriate inclusion especially because the scientific community basically ignores Eric otherwise (by his own admission according to a letter he signed).
• There is no original research on Eric Lerner's page. Absolutely none. I challenge you to point to some.
• If you wanted, I would have gladly provided you with the context for the links that Ian made. With context, none of the edits are evidence of POV-pushing, original research (I have no idea where that came from), nor edit-warring beyond the scope of this particular content dispute (see next bullet point).
• For edit warring, there is a strict 3RR policy meant to address it as well as dispute resolution processes. You did not refer the conflict to any of these before blocking. I take this to be a punative action then targetted specifically against me.
• I believe that "Edit warring" is in this case, strongly in the eye of the beholder. The conflict between myself, User:Iantresman and User:Elerner to me is a content dispute and I regard the edits by User:Elerner to be in conflict with WP:AUTO (an issue totally ignored by you). You'll also note that Iantresman hasn't offered an edit to the article since 19 July.
• I see no attempt by you to discuss what the dispute was about on the talkpage of the article in question.

I am saddened that you will not offer an apology. This is beginning to remind me a lot of the Ed Poor case.

--ScienceApologist 23:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

On the surface, this block appears questionable; I would'nt have imposed it myself. That said, I am concerned by SA's seeming mission to discredit Plasma cosmology (in general) in favour of the Hot Big Bang Model. Last I've heard, Hannes Alfvén was not a psuedoscientist, and HBB Modelers are still struggling to account for Dark Matter. Perhaps I missed crucial new findings that would work toward diminishing from the criticisms waged by many PCs that it remains yet another convinient HBBM deus ex machina, one ostensibly in service of deus... El_C 23:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hannes Alfvén is most certainly not the issue. Eric Lerner is the issue. I don't know where exactly El C is getting his sources from, but dark matter is a feature, not a problem to account for in the Big Bang. Most of the PC criticisms stem from the early 1990s (as outlined in the non-standard cosmology page) before precision measurements, redshift surveys, and supernovae observations honed us in on ΛCDM. But this is hardly the point. Discrediting PC is only done using verifiable, well-cited, and reliable sources. It isn't done by myself or any other editor. --ScienceApologist 23:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

DM (cold or otherwise) appears to remain a pretty convinient presuppository feature of the Model, a feature which, since it dosen't interact with anything in the material universe, cannot (yet?) be conclusively proven to exist, but just happens to fit perfectly with HBBM, accounting for the vast majority of mass in the universe. Criticisms of theistic-driven agenda have no basis, you're saying? El_C 00:29, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

El C, you're out of contact with the workings of science. Physics will setup models giving formula which are in agreement with current observations and hopefully predict future observerations. ΛCDM has an excellent score in this disciplines. The question of "why" is left to theists, kooks and popular science journalists. Newton started this trend, you know? --06:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

That dosen't really respond to anything that I say. Regardless, I do think that it is too early stage of human development to speak so confidently about the history/origin of the universe, as gospel truth. El_C 07:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

No scientific theory is gospel truth, that's your misunderstanding. But it has to be usefull. That's the difference between successfull theories and the trash heap of refuted oned. --Pjacobi 07:40, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Law of unintended consequences

User:Elerner is back rewriting his biography here at Misplaced Pages. I tried to illustrate the conundrum here. The actions of this administrator has definitely made the conflict more complicated and protracted, in my opinion. --ScienceApologist 23:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Reply by Eric Lerner

As the subject of this attack by Science Apologist(Joshua Schroeder), I think I need to comment. I am also requesting that SA not only be blocked from my article, but that the article is again protected in the same version that it was formerly protected...

The issue here is that SA is accusing me of lying and using false information to do it. I was a Visiting Astronomer at ESO in February 2006. I have so stated in several places. Not a big deal, but a fact.

SA has repeatedly reverted this fact on my wiki entry to state that I was invited by a friend to visit ESO, a completely different thing. If that were true, which someone relying on Misplaced Pages would believe, then my claiming that I was a Visiting Astronomer is a lie. In science, faking credentials is a particularly bad thing to do. But that is what anyone using Misplaced Pages will conclude about me, if SA’s edits are allowed to stand.

Of course this is just the most glaring example. As Shell points out, a lot of SA’s edits are extremely biased and, as on many, many other entries, he defends them by having seemingly unlimited time to revert continuously. This includes eliminating the views of James Van Allen, who I assume you all are familiar with.

SA’s behavior toward me is not exceptional. If you look at his user page he has been involved in a vast number of revert wars, all with the aim of purging Misplaced Pages of anything he deems unorthodox, including the views of scientists as distinguished as Halton Arp. (If you don’t know who he is, just consult any galactic atlas and see all the galaxies named Arp220 or Arp- some- other- number).

Here is just one random example:

'Comment by User:DavidRussell'

ScienceApologist consistently deletes any passages that refer to alternative interpretations of redshift. He then falsely claims that the redshift articles which already exist cover concepts that he has in fact deleted in previous attempts.

"Another critique of cosmological redshift also came from Halton C. Arp, who continues to find empirical support in the existence of apparently connected objects with very different redshifts. Arp has interpreted these connections to mean that these objects are in fact physically connected. He has further hypothesized that the higher redshift objects are ejected from the lower redshift objects - which are usually active galactic nuclei (AGN)- and that the large observed redshifts of these "ejected" objects is dominated by a non-cosmological (intrinsic) component. Conventional cosmological models regard these as chance alignments and Arp's hypothesis has very few supporters within the research community."

ScienceApologist (as Joshua Schroeder) saw fit to delete this passage claiming that it was not NPOV.

Comment by Jon

The infuriatingly stubborn and irrational behaviour of Joshua Schroeder is pretty much the principal reason I can't be bothered participating in Misplaced Pages much these days.

A random example from SA’s talk page

Uncivil

This edit: "People who parade about pseudoscience in place of actual science are irrational" is insulting and degrading. Please have some civility and stop reverting this article in contrast to the talk page. Bastique▼parler voir 19:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion, SA’s behavior is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages .Elerner 00:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

And in Misplaced Pages's opinion, you should not be editing/edit-warring an article about you. See WP:AUTO. Guettarda 00:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps he was not aware of WP:AUTO. Clearly, it's best that he restricts himself to the talk page (though he could appeal to Office, I suppose). The "visiting astronomer" issue does seem to merit a closer look. El_C 00:44, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Good grief, a member of Arbcom thinks blocking Giano for mild incivility to a major troll is a good idea last month, and now SA has been blocked for his usual diligent thankless work on science articles, on the word of a known POV pusher and this is supported by someone violating AUTO, and we're supposed to think this makes it legit? No wonder good editors are sometimes scarce around here. Minor apologies for the ascerbic tone... One puppy's opinion, your mileage may vary. KillerChihuahua 00:42, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Since when is Lar a "major troll"? Metamagician3000 10:02, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Truth be known, I'm a science apologist, triumphalist, erm, supporter, too! Go science! Still, this dosen't seem so clear-cut yet. El_C 00:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Quite agree, El_C, but this was surely not a case for blocking. KillerChihuahua 01:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, Shell appears to have had some reservations and offered other admins to unblock if they so choose. FM felt it warranted unblocking and I take no issue with his decision as I trust his judgment. The blocking is in the past, I hope. El_C 01:17, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

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