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Revision as of 17:56, 15 September 2006

How can Northern Ireland claim to be the successor team ? They make up less than a third of the territory this team represented. It is a bit like Ukraine claiming to be the successor of the USSR. Djln --Djln 16:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Not quite. The team is controlled by the same football association. And, most importantly, they are recognsied as such by FIFA --Robdurbar 17:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

With or without FIFA recognition this is still a very dubious claim. Djln --Djln 21:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the articles stated 'is recognsied by FIFA as the sucessor'. This is a cold hard fact. Your, or mine, or anyone else's, opinion on this is irrelevant until we are given the role of organising world football. --Robdurbar 06:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Basis of article

I am dubious of the name and basis of this article. The date 1920 is chosen presumably as the foundation of Northern Ireland, but the FAI was not founded until 1921 and did not play a full international until 1926, and the IFA team continued to select players from the South until 1950. The identification of the two teams with North and South did not spring forth in 1920, it evolved in stages. The NI page gives the same "first game" (and "worst defeat"). The article might be renamed somehow and address the occasional efforts or dreamings for a revived all-island team. BTW the team kit was St Patrick's Blue with green trim. jnestorius 17:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well as a comparison:

• We do have a seperate article on the USSR national football team, Yugoslavia national football team and West Germany national football team, even though all three's records have been absorbed into their sucessor
• We don't have an article on the Serbia and Montenegro national football team or the North Yemen national football team; these are redirects to the modern sucessor of the team.

So it seems that the barrier to inclusion on other defunct teams has been dependent on the pedigree of the side, rather than on any other criteria. On this basis, then, if there is enough information for a seperate article on the all Ireland team, and the team has been shown to be of some notability (which as winners of the British Home Championship it probably was), then having an article on the team is reasonable; that said I can see an argument for merging, but I'm not fully persuaded.

The first games/worst defeats can be repeated over the articles; I don't see a problem there.

As for the dates - I agree that these could be altered. The creator clearly went by the date of independence, but I agree that it should probably be renamed to '1882-1950'? --Robdurbar 18:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• Why 1950 date ? The dates are based on independence/partition as this was in reality when the two teams separated . Although both teams referred to themselves as Ireland until 1950 and some players were capped by both sides, they were two separate teams long before then. Two seperate associations existed, choosing two teams from the 1920s onwards. Incidently, the Republic then known as the Free State, actually made their debut at the 1924 Olympics Djln--Djln 23:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Well if that's the case, then its fine. Robdurbar 06:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

My issue is more with the name than the content. At the moment, the final section (IFA v FAI) falls outside the timelimit specified in the title. It also conveys a misleading impression that in 1920, the IFA said: well, the country is partitioned, so of course we must have separate associations; it did not happen like that, as the body of the article makes (somewhat) clear. The RSSSF citation is a one-sentence summary of a complex issue, more a footnote on a site which is primarily a collection of results and tables, not an overview of the history of the organisation of the game. If you want a cutoff date, you could choose from:

• 1920: Northern Ireland created
• 1921: FAI founded
• 1922: Free State created
• 1923: FAI joins FIFA and IFAB
• 1924: IFA (re)joins FIFA
• 1926: First FAI international (1924 Olympics team was organised by OCI, not FAI)
• 1932: FAI first play north-born player
• 1936: FAI change name to Ireland
• 1946: FAI last play north-born player, IFA rejoins FIFA again
• 1950: FIFA split Ireland team's jurisdictions, IFA last play south-born player
• 1953: FAI team renamed Republic of Ireland
• 1954: IFA team renamed Northern Ireland
• 1984: End of British Championship, where IFA team still played as Ireland.

I'm not suggesting 1920 is the worst of these candidates, though personally I would prefer 1922 or 1923. Really I'm suggesting picking one date is an unneccessary simplification of the process. How about All-Ireland national football team, or Ireland national football team (all-island)? jnestorius 17:56, 15 September 2006 (UTC)