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Revision as of 12:37, 8 February 2017

Welcome to the no original research noticeboard
This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis. Include links to the relevant article(s). Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here. You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research. Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcuts WP:NORN WP:NOR/N WP:ORN WP:OR/N If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.
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K-pop list

For the article in question, we have a "List of 20 most viewed K-pop music videos on YouTube".

The table itself does not cite a source for the selection of individual songs. An editor defending the list cites . However, they have identified a song or two that are somehow missing from the source and added them to the list. View figures are then updated from the individual video pages on YouTube. While the source is dated October 20, 2016, the chart says it is "Last Update: December 20, 2016".

The other editor suggested spinning off the chart to its own article. It had previously been killed as a trivial metric at Misplaced Pages:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_January_4#List_of_most_viewed_kpop_music_videos and Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_most_viewed_kpop_music_videos. - SummerPhD 15:18, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Ranked list of languages

The article List of languages by number of native speakers aims to provide a ranked list of the top 100 languages. However, beyond the notorious unreliability of speaker counts, it's not possible to obtain a ranking by using specialized sources for each language, since they use different criteria and give figures for different dates. The solution chosen is to use a ranked list of the top 100 languages published by the Swedish encyclopedia Nationalencyklopedin. Although Nationalencyklopedin does not specify its methodology, it is at least a single (tertiary) source that is trying to be internally consistent.

Problem: entry #80 (Northern Min) is obviously wrong – 4 times bigger than the figure in a reliable secondary source or the total population of the counties in which it is spoken – see Talk:List of languages by number of native speakers#Northern Min. But how can we fix this? Just deleting the entry would confuse readers, but any explanation would be OR. And what of the entries ranked #81 to #100? Kanguole 13:20, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Maybe some articles just can't be created. Yes, you can't use multiple sources to make such a list. If we can use the Swedish encyclopedia without it being a copyvio issue, we could have the top 50. Doug Weller talk 19:16, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Original research in La Amistad

An editor keeps trying to insert original research in La Amistad based on (a) what he believes he can see in a reproduction of a 180-year-old painting, (b) a Facebook page, and (c) ancient maps. While our article is poorly sourced, the Amistad incident is far from obscure and finding reliable secondary sources is not difficult. I refuse to continue to argue with somebody who will not read, or cannot understand, WP:No original research. Eyes would be welcome. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 21:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi there! I'm in good faith but seem impossible to talk to Mr. Shabbazz who is just bullying citing policies. I've started to read the page and I've made a edit regarding the Ship flag, after being reverted I was pulled by my self me to investigate the matter. Well ok, after several research I was wrong regarding the ship flag, no problem, anyway since the fact a ship cannot fly Spanish flag if registered to a different country, and Honduras was no longer Spain since 1821, on this sources: ; ; The Amistad, set sails from Havana to the port of Guanaja, Cuba , nowadays part of Esmeralda (es:Esmeralda (Cuba)#Desarrollo del territorio) municipality, Puerto del Principe wich is today called Camagüey, not the omonym Guanaja (Honduras) just because of an unsurced wikilink. Thank you in advance and sorry again. This not an original research, anyway it's impossible to talk or to try to make edits on that page. --Nicola Romani (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Here on page 27: :

"sailed from Havana for the port of Guanaja, in the island of Cuba"

— Page 27; Africans Taken in the Amistad: Congressional Document, Containing the Correspondence, &c., in Relation to the Captured Africans, U.S. Dept. of State, 1840.

Wich is not Honduras. --Nicola Romani (talk) 22:28, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Same source, page 37:

"The Amistad is a Spanish vessel; was regularly cleared from Havana, a Spanish port in Cuba, to Guanaja, a Spanish port in the neighborood of Puerto Principe another Spanish port;"

— Page 37; Africans Taken in the Amistad: Congressional Document, Containing the Correspondence, &c., in Relation to the Captured Africans, U.S. Dept. of State, 1840.

--Nicola Romani (talk) 22:36, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

And many other sources: Josep M. Fradera, Christopher Schmidt-Nowara, Slavery and Antislavery in Spain's Atlantic Empire or others like: Howard Jones, Mutiny on the Amistad or Barbara A. Sommervill, The Amistad Mutiny: Fighting for Freedom. --Nicola Romani (talk) 23:02, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Libertarian Republican

More eyeballs are needed at Libertarian Republican; a user has inserted and reinserted content into this article that is not supported by any reliable sources. (The user is also inserting citations to the Libertarian Party's website and to a libertarian advocacy website, but even these (unacceptable) sources don't support the claims made).

More eyes on this would be appreciated. Neutrality 23:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

I've responded to this at the article talk page. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 04:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

He's had a DS for American Politics, he should know better. Doug Weller talk 17:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Kingdom

The following wikitext on Amhara people appears to be synthesis: "The medieval Adal Sultanate seized slaves during jihad expeditions in Christian outposts in the old provinces of Amhara, Shäwa, Fatagar, and Dawaro . Many of the slaves seized by Adal were assimilated, others exported or gifted to rulers of Arabia in exchange for military support ." It is cited to two works on expeditions in various historical multi-ethnic provinces of Ethiopia (viz. Amhara Province, Shewa, Fatagar, Dawaro); however, neither citation is population-specific (i.e., they do not indicate that the sultanate expeditions were against Amhara Christians). As such, the wikitext appears to breach WP:SYNTH since it "combines material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". Please advise. Soupforone (talk) 05:11, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Please see the section, as the cites include relevant embedded quotes. To allege OR:synthesis, one must identify (a) how the two sources are being combined, and (b) what is "conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources" in the above. Neither are offered. If you see the edit history, you will note that the article originally had two separate sentences, but @Soupforone combined and merged the two sentences into one. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:06, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, I had to tweak the phrasing because the synthesis was even worse before. A wikiphrase attributed to Ehud R. Toledano claimed that "Amhara were a part of major Afar slave caravan trade routes from the southern and southwestern regions to the northern and eastern Ethiopia", when what Toledano actually indicates is that "the first section of this trade was in the hands of Ethiopian dealers who drove the slaves from the southern and southwestern Galla, Sidama, and Gurage principalities to the central Amhara provinces. While the caravans from the area south of Showa were perhaps as large as those crossing the Sahara, the average Afar caravan consisted of thirty to fifty merchants and about two hundred slaves" . That same wikiphrase was also attributed to Richard Pankhurst, who similarly writes instead that "later in the century Mähfuz, the amir of Zayla, no doubt taking advantage of the wealth and power of the port, began a series of annual incursions, into Amhara, Shäwa and Fatagar" . Here too there's no mention of Afars enslaving Amhara, but rather expeditions by the Adal kingdom in the old multi-ethnic Amhara province and other zones. The only place where Pankhurst does allude to Amhara Christians is to indicate that many embraced Islam-- "'a great multitude' of Amhara Christians at his exhortation embraced Islam" . Likewise, Ulrich Braukämper only mentions Adal sultanate raids in the Dawaro and Bale provinces, not by the Afars against Amahara-- "Harb Jaus, a general of the Adalite sultan Djamal al-Din (d. AD 1433), before he continued his campaigns against the Christians in Dawaro, also achieved a successful attack on Bale. Makrizi's document reports, 'So much booty fell into his hands that every poor man was given three slaves; indeed by reason of the vast numbers of these the price of slaves fell'" . The foregoing is on expeditions by the Adal sultanate against old multi-ethnic provinces. Soupforone (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

FamilySearch usage in Rafael Díez de la Cortina y Olaeta

Rafael Díez de la Cortina y Olaeta uses FamilySearch as a source multiple times. Is it Original Research? It's used to link to a scanned image of a passport, a scanned image of records of marriage, a census, crew lists, passport applications.--User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 05:35, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I looked at WP:PRIMARY - it seems largely to allow primary sources - including familysearch I would assume - even while saying that they are easy to misuse.

From there I was linked to policy on primary sources in biographical articles - WP:BLPPRIMARY which states: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." - seems pretty definite against this kind of use.--User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 18:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I noticed now that WP:BLPPRIMARY is about Biographies of living persons, which Rafael Díez is not, he died in 1939, so maybe the injunction against using public records is null. -I almost posted this in the BLP noticeboard. :/ --User:Dwarf Kirlston - talk 18:51, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

The Exodus

This is about . It is not clear at all what a wall around Jericho has to do with the Exodus. Wall around Jericho therefore the Exodus? Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:20, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The previous sentence states Jericho was "small and poor, almost insignificant, and unfortified". Being unfortified makes a direct reference to a wall not being around Jericho, thus evidence to the counter perspective should also be relevant. Maldives107 (talk) 17:38, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

It means small and poor, almost insignificant and unfortified at a specific time, it does not mean ever/forever. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:40, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

See Jericho#Bronze Age. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:49, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Conflation of the Bronze Age with the Iron Age. Typical for WP:SYNTH. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:56, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

So, the Exodus discussed the small and poor Jericho of the Iron Age, and Maldives107 cited a book by Kenyon which discussed the fortified Jericho of the Bronze Age. I don't understand why a reality of the Bronze Age could refute a reality of the Iron Age. The sources which verify those claims don't even speak of the same historical period, so obviously the wall of the Bronze Age does not contradict the unfortified Jericho of the Iron Age. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The beginning of the The Exodus#Dating the Exodus section states "Attempts to date the Exodus to a specific century have been inconclusive" meaning The Exodus, if it happened, does not have an established date. However, if it did occur during the Iron Age, C14 dating of the same debris Kenyon found has been dated to the Iron Age documented here: Quaderni di Gerico, Issue 2. Maldives107 (talk) 18:50, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

@Maldives107: Could you please give us a quote from the document so that we can see what specific C14 dating you are referring to? Which phase, etc. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 19:31, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Before he gives such quote, it still is WP:OR or WP:SYNTH to quote Kenyon's book for begging a conclusion which Kenyon herself did not subscribe to. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:49, 27 January 2017 (UTC

Yes it is. Doug Weller talk 20:51, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

The story here, including the claims about what appears in "Quaderni di Gerico, Issue 2", comes from an article that creationist archaeologist Bryant Wood published in Biblical Archaeology Review in 2008. Wood wants to align the archaeological record with the bible by means of two devices: one is to move the date of the destruction of Jericho later and the other is to move the date of the exodus earlier. However, "Quaderni di Gerico, Issue 2" does not support the first claim and is indifferent to the second. You can read what "Quaderni di Gerico, Issue 2" actually says at Talk:Jericho#Radiocarbon. The authors of that study (who were the excavators of the site) do not believe in an Iron Age wall in Jericho, not in that paper or in later papers I could find. This is just for information, since Maldives107's edit is forbidden by policy as others have pointed out. That paragraph in the article is very poor though and could use a complete rewrite. Zero 03:21, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

According to Exodus, Joshua blew his horn, causing the walls of Joshua to fall and the Israelites to take the land of Canaan, completing the Exodus story. Archeological evidence about the city and its walls can therefore provide evidence about the degree of truth of Exodus. TFD (talk) 05:25, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

You are correct. However the edit being challenged suggested that a wall had been found which supported the account. The problem is that the wall was destroyed a couple of centuries earlier than the usually accepted date of the exodus (i.e. accepted by those who think it happened at all) and about one century earlier than even Wood's much earlier date. The issue could expanded in more detail in the article if that's what the consensus is, but isolated misleading sentences are not good. Zero 07:02, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

@Maldives107: Have you actually read Quaderni di Gerico, Issue 2? If so, I want the text you are referring to. If you don't do that it will appear you are relying on someone else as your source, probably Wood, and should not be citing Quaderni di Gerico, Issue 2. Doug Weller talk 07:33, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Look you can argue that Bryant Wood is not a good source and I tend to agree still he is widely cited although mostly by academic theologians. The chronology is wrong but I don’t think anyone disputes that the site is the biblical Jericho. Many details match the biblical description the walls possibly destroyed by earthquake or war, then the city was burn after the harvest when the store houses where full.

What scholars dispute is that the city was destroyed by invading Israelis during the exodus.Jonney2000 (talk) 06:12, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Recent additions in "Cold War II"

I have limited the sources to just explicitly mentioning "Cold War II" and/or any other interchangeable term. To make the article less about EU/NATO–Russia relations, I added China–US and "Early usages" to balance the article. The recent addition by XavierItzm (reverted but then reinserted by me) and other additions by Fixuture had me worried. The sources added by them do not use the phrases, like "new Cold War" or "Second Cold War". Rather they used old "Cold War" and recent events as comparisons to justify inclusion of added information. Are these additions "original research"?

Also, there has been disagreements over what the article should be about. However, the subject they referred to was the EU/NATO–Russia relations, I think. Should the article discuss the term "Cold War II" or the subject describing (or described by) the term (probably EU/NATO–Russia)? --George Ho (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I'd just like to make a small note with the relevant talk page discussion. I recommend to read it first but in very short terms I do think the article should be about the subject, not the term (at worst case it would need to be moved to a more appropriate name but I don't think that would be needed) and that its inclusion criteria for any relevant event etc. should be WP:RS using (any variation of) the term "Cold War" in a way that suggests a possible future or perceived renewed/new Cold War.

--Fixuture (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not keen on renaming the article, Fixuture, though I respect your thoughts. How about creating a new article? Maybe move some portions to another article, like Russia–United States relations? By the way, there have been past discussions about the article itself. You can read the Archives. George Ho (talk) 18:31, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting to rename it - I just wanted to make a sidenote about that also being an option if people think another term would more appropriate for the subject. Also imo an additional article would mean duplicate content. Also one could also think of a subsection of the "EU/NATO members vs. Russia"-section titled something like "Events compared to the Cold War". This info just should not miss in the article. --Fixuture (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

What about other sections, "Early usages" and "United States vs. China"? George Ho (talk) 19:02, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

RFC at Collective punishment

Is a US drone strike that killed the child of a suspected terrorist, added here, an example of collective punishment, or is this original research?

Please contribute at Talk:Collective punishment#RFC on US drone strike. Bradv 20:51, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Every movie, video game, play or book review on Misplaced Pages

It seems to me that the "no original research" provision must, of necessity, exclude the summaries of every "literary work of art" (work) which I will define broadly as the plot summary of any

• fiction book,
• play,
• TV program (or the summaries of the full season of a series), and
• motion picture or
• the playing summary of any computer program which is a video game,

described in an article on Misplaced Pages.

Most plot summaries (or play summaries for video games) of these works are presumably written by the editor of that article at the time they create (or update) the article about the work, based upon their own memory of the plot of the work or how they played the video game. That summary has almost certainly never appeared anywhere else for that work and almost certainly has no reference to third-parties for the content of the summary.

Thus the plot or play summaries of these works are by definition original research having no third-party references at all. I have checked and there is no exception in the prohibition on original research for the summaries of the plot, or video game play, of works of art.

Therefore I think a qualifier should be added to the "no original research" provision to state that for obvious reasons of necessity (as I have stated above), the plot summary of a fiction book, play, television program (or series) or motion picture, and the play summary of a computer program is permitted to be original to Misplaced Pages, is permitted for this limited purpose to be original research, and to that extent is not required to contain or include references to third-party content.

In the alternative I believe it is necessary to flag every single article on Misplaced Pages about any fiction book, play, motion picture or television program (or television series) that contains plot summaries, or computer programs having a play summary, which are not references of, and not indicated by a reference as derived from, a third-party source, as containing forbidden (prohibited) original research. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) (talk) 22:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

The descriptions you talk about are not original research - the source is the creative work itself, an example of self published sources as sources about themselves. The description of a movie carried on the Misplaced Pages article about that movie has never appeared anywhere else, but that's the case with every article. Our description of Donald Trump has not appeared ver batim anywhere else, and indeed that has to be the case, or else it's a copyright violation. You can describe a movie without committing original research just as you can summarize a news article without committing original research. The originality of the text does not imply originality of the thought, which is what OR is meant to prevent. The only way a plot summary could be original research is if it drew conclusions that were not blatantly obvious from the source, or attempted to interpret the source. There is no contradiction in policy here, and most long-time Wikipedians understand this. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a situation where a WP:PRIMARY source is acceptable as long as no analyses or conclusions are made. Obviously this would have come up before if it were a policy problem. —DIYeditor (talk) 23:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Another way to put it, following from Someguy's response, is that a plot is presumed to be implicitly sourced to the work in question. This does not mean a plot cannot be explicitly sourced to third-party works, or in the case of very long works, using direct citations to the work itself. But again, this summary should only be apparent and obvious, and definitely not interpretative. --MASEM (t) 01:22, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

I will chime in and say that the movies can be used as a primary source but that reliable secondary sources that summarize the source should be used if available. One concern I don't see voiced here has to do with WP policies concerning NPOV. If an editor chooses to focus on only certain parts of the movie while omitting others, then they can create a narrative that may or may not be intended by the original source. Think about the movie Deadpool, and if an editor minimized the amount of coverage of fighting, shooting, torture, and blood to focus the majority of the summary on Wade's girlfriend. It would read as a romance film and where is to say what should/shouldn't be included in the summary? Just something to keep in mind.Scoobydunk (talk) 06:16, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Funny, but every comment here seems to be saying the exact same thing that I said but trying to dance around the rule so as to allow original research of the declaration of the plot of a work / play of a video game without calling it original research. Let me quote from the article on No Original Research:

The WP:ABOUTSELF referenced above by someguy does not fix this problem because in that case we are still using a third party source.

You can't claim the plot summary is a primary source because it is using the work - book, film, play etc. -- as its source, and the summary isn't coming from the work, it is the Misplaced Pages editor's opinion of the work expressed as the summary.

The plot summary of any movie (or other work) is by definition original research, again, not sourced to a third party resource. Nothing you can find in a book, play, TV program review, or video game play review placed here, can be sourced back to anything but the editor's opinion. It is, almost always, not the summary of some published review of the film, it is itself the review and therefore it's original research.

You can tapdance around and spin-doctor this all you want, just to try to hide what your own admissions in your examples state is obvious: reviews of entertainment will almost always be first-party declarations of what the editor believes to be the plot, not a summary of what someone else said. There is no third-party reference someone can go back to and see if the summary fairly represents the conclusions of the third-party work, all we can do is look at the source work and see if the plot summary on Misplaced Pages matches it.

I don't see why all the spin-doctoring and tapdancing needs to be made to avoid the inevitable conclusion: plot/gameplay summaries often have no third-party sources available and sometimes original research for these items is unavoidable. Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) (talk) 10:08, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

You're the only person insisting the reliable source must be third party. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

That's what the references say. Misplaced Pages:Verifyability says "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) (talk) 10:24, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Now, if what you're saying is the original work can stand on its own as the source and then the summary can use the work as the source without requiring any prior third party material then this point should be made clear. It still sounds like an attempt to "backdoor" original research because if you didn't backdoor it you'd have to admit it was original Paul Robinson (Rfc1394) (talk) 10:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

The same policy (WP:V) that says to base content on third party material also outlines exceptions to this rule. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:42, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

We've made this point clear. The movie/episode/book itself can be used as a primary resource. WP policy is very clear that reliable secondary sources should be used when available, but primary sources can be used without interpretation. WP policy admits to the pitfalls this presents, but still okays it. This is literally what I previously said. You can quote directly from the movie or screenplay, both of which are published sources. Original research only applies when a person tries to include their own inferences into an article that isn't directly and explicitly supported by the source. This is usually seen when an editor tries to give, provide, or explain a reason why a character behaved a certain way or tries to elaborate about the director's intentions when there is no direct evidence for this. A video game summary which stats "In stage 5 player 'X' travels to planet 'Y' and is tasked with stopping person 'Z's' plan" could be directly verified with the video game itself. Ultimately these descriptions all come down to consensus, but it's pretty hard to argue with something that's so easily verifiable. Also, you seem to be saying that any summarizing is original research, and that's not what the policy says at all. The whole point of Misplaced Pages is to accurately summarize what sources say. It doesn't matter if the source is primary or tertiary, we're suppose to summarize them using limited quotes to avoid copyright violations. So a summary is not "by definition" original research.Scoobydunk (talk) 12:33, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

OR checking myself

On an article I am working on, Iazyges, I found a source (ISBN 9781900188470) that mentions that 1. The salt mines near to the Iazyges were owned by Rome, and 2. The Iazyges did not have salt of their own, and needed it, because they bred cattle. Would it be too far of a stretch to say that they relied upon the Romans to get this salt? I have another source (OCLC 891848847) that says that the Iazyges' trade route to the Pontic Steppe was cut off. These two factors would logically imply that the Iazyges would have to get it from the Romans. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 00:13, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Your question answers itself: If you have to make an argument or use logic to show that source A and source B combine to support point C, then it's prohibited original research via SYNTHESIS. Per that policy, "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." You might also notice the "imply" in that sentence: It's also prohibited to state what's said in A and what's said in B if the purpose or result would be that an average reader would imply C. In your case, mentioning your point 1 in the article would be doing just that since it is otherwise irrelevant to the Iazyges without that implication. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:38, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

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