Revision as of 13:34, 21 February 2017

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Requests for clarification and amendment

Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (2)

Initiated by BU Rob13 at 16:59, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• BU Rob13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• SoWhy (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

• SoWhy

Statement by BU Rob13

See the conversation surrounding Regularization Bill here. Multiple administrators have interpreted the most recent change to WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 to mean that extended confirmed protection should only be used on articles in the topic area if edits by new editors or IPs come from multiple sources, are frequent, and are sustained (as we would do for normal disruption). Having been around for the last ARCA, this was plainly not the intent. As Guerillero said last time around "The ban is not optional." Please clarify that the first method of enforcement should be ECP, with other alternatives more suitable to instances where an editor is editing across many articles or where ECP is otherwise not effective or sufficient. ~ Rob₁₃ 16:59, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Just noting the last (and most recent) discussion posted below by NeilN closed with consensus to protect pages as soon as the restriction is violated, but not before. That's all I'm asking for clarification in favor here - that the pages should be protected if the restriction is violated. ~ Rob₁₃ 17:15, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

@SoWhy: The wording states that those secondary options are to be used when ECP is not feasible, not when the secondary options are feasible. Could you clarify why ECP wouldn't have prevented the disruption/wasn't feasible? ~ Rob₁₃ 19:09, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I fully agree, Kevin. There's a sharp difference between declining to action something and declining a request so that no other admin actions it, though. ~ Rob₁₃ 07:42, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@Kirill Lokshin: Can you clarify whether the restriction is mandatory or not? If it is, can you clarify what valid edit is omitted by ECP protecting an article? I really struggle to understand the logic in blocking an editor when protection would suffice and the protection has zero false positives by construction. ARBPIA#500/30 places ECP protection in the form of a behavioral restriction (rather than a technical restriction) on all ARBPIA articles. Regardless of intent, failing to protect an article in response to disruption weakens the restriction and allows editors not allowed to edit in the topic area to edit that article in the future. Again, no-one is saying we hold a gun to an admin's head and force them to protect. We're just saying they shouldn't take an admin action and actually decline protection when it would act as a simple enforcement of the ArbCom remedy. ~ Rob₁₃ 22:38, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

The effect of this decision is that ARBPIA3#500/30 is fully optional and up to admin discretion. The typical protection policy already allows that. If a decision will not be enforced, you should rescind it. ~ Rob₁₃ 13:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@NeilN: But this remedy doesn't say protect articles to prevent disruption (which is covered by the protection policy) or jump up some levels via discretion (which is covered by active discretionary sanctions). It's a prohibition, full stop. Zero edits by non extendedconfirmed editors are allowed in this topic area. If we really just intend to allow discretion, which I'm not against, then drop this remedy and rely on DS. We shouldn't have an unenforced prohibition on the books, though. Its confusing. ~ Rob₁₃ 15:44, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It just falls back on admin discretion, which is covered by DS. I agree limiting disruption is the goal, but if we want to back away from the heavy-handed prohibition to allow discretion, we should rescind the prohibition and make that clear. Saying "We're prohibiting this but not really" isn't good policy writing. ~ Rob₁₃ 16:14, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Can any arbitrator explain to me how "We have a prohibition, but admins don't have to enforce it and can actively decline requests to enforce it." is any different than "We have discretionary sanctions, which allow discretionary ECP protection, and admins are encouraged to make liberal use of it."? The latter is certainly more clear. ~ Rob₁₃ 15:36, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Would it be appropriate for editors in the ARBPIA area to make their requests for page protection at AE instead of RFPP? One of the issues here, as I see it, is admins applying the typical "protection policy" mentality to this remedy, whereas this remedy is wholly distinct from our protection policy. Perhaps moving such requests to AE would be wise. ~ Rob₁₃ 20:45, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by SoWhy

The current wording of WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is

Neither this wording nor the two previous ones (which explicitly used "may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters") contains a rule that ECP has to be used to enforce the prohibition, just that it's preferred. In this case there was only one editor who could have been dealt with individually, without the need to lock down the page.

That said, I have no particular opinion on the topic itself and I'd be fine if WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 was clarified to read "has to be enforced". Regards SoWhy 18:11, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

• @BU Rob13: The current consensus (cf. the links NeilN provided and also at the recent AN/I thread) seems to be that ECP should be used "liberally but not automatically" (to borrow Airplaneman's phrase) when it comes to this particular topic ban, i. e. iff there has been a disruption. At the time of the protection request, the article in question was newly created by a relatively new user and then stubyfied without a disruption in sight. The new user in this case didn't know about the ArbCom ruling and edited in good faith as far I can tell, so it was not a violation and thus no need to apply ECP. If the Committee believes this particular motion should apply to all articles, even before disruption happened, then yes, clarification is required since the current wording allows the interpretation we have seen become consensus (and which I based my decision on). And if your strict interpretation is to be the correct one, ArbCom should just protect all such pages preemptively and be done with it. But since they haven't done so in the past, it was a reasonable assumption by myself (and many others) that ArbCom didn't want to demolish the third pillar before disruption actually occurs. Regards SoWhy 21:24, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

• @Kevin: So basically what you are saying is "admins are not robots but in such cases they have to behave like robots"? So why not make it easier? Let's just create a subpage that anyone with extendedconfirmed userrights can edit and where people can list articles that should be protected and an adminbot will just apply EC protection to all entries on that list. Regards SoWhy 18:51, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

• As for the comments that there is a difference between declining and not doing something, please keep in mind that any admin patrolling WP:RFPP only decides based on the page as it presents itself at this time. It's not wheel-warring if another admin protects a page later on when later edits justify it. Thus declining to take action when a single good-faith editor without knowledge of the restrictions creates an article does not mean that the page cannot be protected later on if disruption occurs.
  That said, I personally think the Committee should reconsider the prohibition altogether and I agree with DeltaQuad that it would work much better as a discretionary sanction. I understand the need to limit participation from certain high-conflict articles but the blanket ban currently in effect violates our fundamental principles, i. e. that this is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit and that any restrictions should only be enforced if no alternative represents itself. Plus, as DQ points out, a DS would be more useful in keeping track of the disruptive patterns. Regards SoWhy 07:31, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• @Opabinia regalis: I disagree that the discussion about the validity of this restriction should need a new ARCA request. DeltaQuad has already pointed out, quite eloquently, that there have already been far too many ARCAs concerning this topic, so why force a new discussion? Evidently the current restriction is problematic and de facto unnecessary since an extended DS would serve the same purpose with the additional benefit, as DQ points out, of changing the venue to WP:AE which is where such requests actually should be decided anyway. Even if the Committee declines to take such action at this time, it should at least consider the last point, i.e. changing the venue to WP:AE for all such requests since WP:RFPP does not log actions and the log at WP:AN is only showing the newest protections (and not just those relating to this restriction). Regards SoWhy 13:17, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by NeilN

Past admin discussions:

• Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_page_protection/Archive_8#WP:ARBPIA3_and_protection
• Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_page_protection/Archive_9#AE_protection_requests
• Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_page_protection#Mass_request_on_pages_related_to_Arab-Israeli_conflict.28s.29

--NeilN 17:12, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Admins are supposed to use their best judgement when enforcing various policies, guidelines, and rulings and I don't see why this should be an exception. 500/30 is a means to an end, and not the actual goal. Repeating the wording here, "All IP editors, accounts with fewer than 500 edits, and accounts with less than 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict." So let's say we have a BLP of an author who, along with other works, has written a controversial book on the Arab-Israeli conflict. Every so often IP editors come in and disrupt the section of the BLP that covers the book and its reception. Can the page be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Yes. But why should we immediately use the sledgehammer of 500/30 when semi or PC could suffice, allowing new/IP editors to constructively update the BLP? --NeilN 20:37, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

To address the concerns above perhaps change

• This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not feasible, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters.

to

• This prohibition is preferably enforced by the use of extended confirmed protection, but where that is not optimal, it may also be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of pending changes, and appropriate edit filters.

Generally, admins are supposed to use the least-restrictive form of protection feasible to start with. 500/30 allows us to skip a few levels in certain topic areas. For example, if Palestine Liberation Organization was unprotected we can immediately apply 500/30, skipping over PC and semi, as that's the optimal solution. For other pages, 500/30 may not be optimal. Admins can apply it without enduring a barrage of criticism but can choose a lesser form of protection if that will stop current and anticipated future disruption just as well. --NeilN 15:26, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

BU Rob13, zero edits by non extendedconfirmed editors in this topic area is not the goal; it is the preferred method to stop the disruption in this topic area (which is the actual goal). The current (or my proposed) wording makes it clear that 500/30 (i.e., zero edits by non extendedconfirmed editors) is the preferred method to use to achieve that goal. --NeilN 15:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by L235

Admins ≠ page protection robots. The restriction is mandatory to follow, and anyone may enforce it, but no one is required to – in the same way that, for example, WP:V is policy and mandatory, but no individual editor is required to enforce it by finding sources for any article they happen to notice bad sourcing on. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 03:38, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Nableezy

A decline per ARBPIA3 makes no sense there. If yall want to say that this is like WP:V in which it is mandatory but nobody is required to enforce it then fine, but then dont also specifically get in the way of somebody else enforcing it. A good faith page protection request should be enough to trigger the protection. It means that the sanction has been violated on that specific page and that ECP would prevent further violations. Declining it on the basis of a decision that says it is the preferable method to deal with violations makes zero sense. If an admin would rather not protect the page then fine, dont, but dont also decline the request, just ignore it and allow somebody willing to deal with it to do so. nableezy - 04:50, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Sir Joseph

If the whole article can be reasonably construed to be under ARBPIA, then ECP should be applied when asked. After all, ECP protection would only mean that those who can't edit, won't edit. If the article is not under ARBPIA and only sections of it are, then that is where the individual edit can be reverted, etc. I don't get the declining protection on a page when the page is clearly part of ARBPIA and ECP blocked people can't edit regardless. Sir Joseph 19:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Guerillero

I seem to have been pinged about this. I don't have any strong feeling about this rememdy except for some remorse for being the open who opened Pandora's Box. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:06, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recuse for this clarification request only. Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 03:38, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Palestine-Israel articles 3: Arbitrator views and discussion

• No individual administrator is required to enforce a particular arbitration decision, whether or not that decision provides for administrative discretion as regards the specific means of enforcement. In this case, we've deliberately left the choice of how to enforce the 500/30 editing restriction up to the enforcing administrators' discretion; while the committee's position is that, in general, enhanced protection should be the first line of defense here, we're not going to second-guess administrators who choose to utilize one of the other enforcement mechanisms absent some credible evidence that those administrators are doing so to deliberately undermine our decision. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 20:34, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
• I agree with NeilN and Kirill on this. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:06, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
• Kirill said it well. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
• Agree with Kirill Lokshin. Mkdw 00:54, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
• Me too. Drmies (talk) 05:19, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
• Can an Arbitrator please clarify to me what the Misplaced Pages definition of prohibition is? It's not matching the English language definition of the word. I agree with NeilN's view on what the intended effect SHOULD be, but we are purposefully undermining ourselves saying these edits are prohibited, but you don't have to enforce it. What then is a point of a prohibition? We could just take a page out of our history books from Prohibition in the United States#Weak Enforcement.

Right now what I am hearing is that arbitrators do not want full prohibition. Fine, lets not make it that then, but lets make some sense. Without a full prohibition, this is honestly a very strong extended DS. This would work a lot better as an extended DS too as it actually gets logged so we can figure out where the disruption is coming from and better react to requests to change our enforcement methods on this.

Anything short of a change, and administrators are in violation of the remedy by not applying 500/30, especially after an IP has edited a page. To be clear, I wouldn't enact any sanction on such an administrator, but why make it an issue in the first place?

When this remedy was first in place, we did not have the 500/30 protection available to us, and an arbitrator called it something along the lines of an effective semi-protection over the pages. Now that we have 500/30 protection available which can be used as a discretionary sanction, is there a point to even continue having this restriction in place? This still affects a large amount of contributors who have good faith intent in the topic area. We are up to this now being the 11th ARCA on the matter, and 3rd potential motion. We need to fix this to something that makes some sense. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 08:42, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

DeltaQuad, I see the prohibition in this case as similar to the old practice of criminal outlawry: participation by a non-500/30 editor on the affected topic is effectively deemed "illegal", and anyone may prevent or undo it using any means at their disposal—but, short of actually assisting the editor in evading the restriction (which is prohibited), no individual is required to act against them, or to act against them in any particular way. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:10, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

That's a reasonable way of describing it, but I think the point being raised is a little bit different: if declining a public request for ECP is an "admin action", then that's different than simply not taking action because it puts a barrier in the way of other admins who might want to act. To continue the analogy, you can ignore the outlaw, or arrest him, but in this case the action is more like standing in the town square saying "I am not arresting that outlaw". Publicly declining a request for admin action is more-or-less an admin action, under the AE principle, and someone else coming along to take the action that's just been declined puts themselves at risk of wheel-warring accusations. (I'd say speeding is a better analogy, and letting someone off with a warning instead of a ticket doesn't actually mean there's suddenly no speed limits anymore.) Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:43, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

@SoWhy: Yeah, I don't mean to suggest that decisions made later after a change of circumstances would be "wheel-warring". I don't really even mean to legitimize the possible accusations of it for "overturning" a non-action without any change of circumstances. I'm just trying to describe the pitfalls of responding to this request with "well, nobody's required to act". Proposing that the restriction be lifted should go in a separate request IMO. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:15, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• This seems like a bit of a "missing the forest for the trees" issue. The purpose of the restriction was to cut down on disruption in this topic area caused by socks, POV-pushers, and good-faith but inexperienced editors who need time to become acquainted with the project before diving into such a difficult subject. As far as I can tell, it's working fairly well for that purpose. At least, we've seen very few issues reach the arbcom level that were actually about disruptive editing. However, we're now seeing many many questions about the logistics of managing the restriction. In this instance, I don't see that the last clarification lacks, um, clarity ;) It's "preferably" enforced by ECP, but different admins may have different preferences in different situations. It is entirely normal that enforcement of a restriction might not be 100% perfectly consistent every time and yet retain its intended effect. I think the best solution is to worry less about the corner cases unless they've clearly caused problems. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:43, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Amendment request: Jytdog

Initiated by Jytdog at 21:45, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

TBAN on discussing COI of editors, imposed as a condition of unblocking me, following indefinite block for violating OUTING (notice of that block provided to me here)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. TBAN imposed here on 8 August 2016

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request

• Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Information about amendment request

• TBAN imposed here on 8 August 2016

• Please lift the TBAN

Statement by Jytdog

The topic ban concerns all matters related to COI editing. This includes investigations and allegations against other editors, and edits to the COIN noticeboard and its talk page and was imposed in response to my OUTING violation, which occurred as I was interacting with an editor who had an apparent COI.

I understand what I did wrong in violating OUTING and understand the condition in the initial notice, that if I ever violate OUTING again I will be indefinitely blocked with no appeal. If the committee wishes to understand my thoughts on how to manage the tension between the community values of a) protecting each editor's privacy and b) protecting content integrity from advocacy editing (and the value of privacy is far more fundamental), please see here on my userpage and more specifically the subsection here.

During the time of my TBAN I have continued my work maintaining NPOV and NOT in article content, focusing only on content. However not being able to talk with editors about COI has been like working with an arm tied behind my back. There are times when an editor's apparent COI is very clear and the apparently-conflicted editor just doesn't know what to do, and a simple, civil, and authentic discussion (always starting with a request to disclose any COI, followed by education about COI management here in WP if the person self-discloses, and escalation to COIN if the person denies but COI is very apparent -- all done in actual dialogue with the person using the account) gets things on track or allows the community to look at the issue. I have also watched situations unfold in unfortunate ways, where in the past I would have initiated a discussion with the editor (again, starting with a request to self-disclose, and authentically talking) which often resolved things more simply.

What I did wrong in the edit that got me blocked, was not talking with the editor but rather aggressively make a claim at them that even OUTED them; I didn't treat them like a person at all, much like one whose privacy is protected. I get that.

Trypto, I won't belabor this; I hear you, and I do promise. Jytdog (talk) 00:22, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

User:Mkdw I was indeed recently blocked for edit warring for the first time, after about 100K edits and about 8 years here. I do have editors writing nasty things on my talk page, as you see there now, related to my regular editing.

I acknowledged my aggressiveness issue above. To add a bit more, I would like to offer a statement made about me by User:Robert McClenon who was dealing with an editor who had followed me to the Mediation board. Please see the second paragraph in this diff. (Robert, I pinged you so that if you object to me citing you on this, let me know and I will strike)

I do get this aspect of my character, and I am aware of this especially in my COI work (which is delicate and is different from other work I do here; I tried to note that in my opening request).

Here are some interactions I have had about COI so you can see what I mean about being careful and authentically in dialogue, in these interactions:

• • There was longterm disruption at William L. Uanna caused by CIC7, the self-disclosed son of the subject of the article. This led to an ANI (here) which made me aware of the issue. Surprisingly nobody had actually talked simply and directly with CIC7 about COI in WP, so I did, here and that discussion has for the most part made things manageable, as far as I know. (I haven't checked in on it for 6 months).
  • User_talk:Fowlia#Conflict_of_interest_in_Wikipedia
  • User_talk:Dcbennett2#Conflict_of_interest_in_Wikiepdia
  • User_talk:Jason_Graves#Conflict_of_interest_in_Wikipedia_-_discuss.3F.

More generally, you mentioned that my interest is "recent", but it isn't. I worked on COI issues in my professional life for many years and have thought a lot about these issues here in WP, which you can (hopefully) find reflected on my Userpage in the links I provided above. More specifically, I have made 1620 edits at COIN going back to May 2013 (tool results), 115 edits to the COI guideline going back to June 2014 (tool results), about 890 edits to WT:COI since October 2013 (tool results, and about 153 edits at the Harassment Talk page going back to January 2015 (tool results). It is true that I haven't discussed the OUTING policy much; the issues are too loaded and discussions almost always derail, in pretty predictable ways. Jytdog (talk) 02:50, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

User:Drmies, don't know how I can say this more clearly than I did in my OP. But I will repeat it. I violated outing. I know that. I know if I do it again, I will be indefinitely blocked with no appeal. And I understand the reason for that, is that privacy is a fundamental value of the community. I understand that only on-wiki evidence is useable on-wiki and that erring on the side of caution is what I must do. Yes. Please also see this comment I made at Jimbo's talk page, about what you are asking about, which has some nuance that i hope can be heard. Jytdog (talk) 06:07, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Bishonen

As the recent Wikimedia Foundation statement on paid editing and outing has shown, along with extensive discussion by both ArbCom and the community, paid editing and privacy concerns are in tension, and keeping a balance between them is very difficult. Several good editors have fallen foul of the privacy issues involved and, distressingly, have been indefinitely blocked for it. IMO Misplaced Pages, not to say Arbcom itself, is lucky anybody is still prepared to work in this slippery and generally unlovely area, much less an energetic and effective editor like Jytdog. I find his statement above convincing; please rescind the ban. Bishonen | talk 03:11, 13 February 2017 (UTC).

Statement by David Tornheim

Oppose His treatment of other editors is just as bad as it always has been. See for example as noted by Ethanbas. --David Tornheim (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

These two warnings (,) to Fixuture and these edits (,, , ) are a violation of one of his T-bans. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:19, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

In part, I want to say: what Bishonen said. Her argument is persuasive, I think. On the other hand, if I'm going to be truly honest here (and I am), it does seem to me that Jytdog has retained the tendency to sometimes (and only sometimes, because he is often very courteous in recent interactions with editors complaining at his user talk) shoot from the hip and come across as abrasive. (In the latter category, I'll point to some things he recently said to Opabinia regalis.) So I'm conflicted: is Bishonen's argument more persuasive than the argument that COI is still being handled, and why re-introduce a potential disruption? @Jytdog: it would be helpful (at least to me) if you could make a serious promise here to take a deep breath and think before hitting the "save" button, going forward, OK?

But I very much want to rebut what David Tornheim has just posted above. That whole business with Fixuture is presented by David as being Jytdog violating his GMO topic ban. For those Arbs who do not have a science background, please let me explain that the edits involve the term "genetic engineering" which is a much broader concept than "genetically modified organisms", even when "broadly defined". And the term only occurs incidentally (sometimes just in citations) in edits that are really about other things. It's really not a topic ban violation. And if we say, just hypothetically, that the edits were about GMOs as David believes that they are, then why is David reporting them? After all, he also is topic banned from GMOs, and has already been blocked at AE for violating that ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I read ImperferfectlyInformed's statement with interest, because it goes to what I tried to say about "why introduce...". I tracked down what happened. As ImperferfectlyInformed indicated, it began with Jytdog's edit summary here: . Looking at it without having been there, it doesn't really strike me as all that harsh, depending on one's perception of "spammy". (I've referred to "spam" in edit summaries myself: .) The discussion that followed is: . I don't think that Jytdog's responses were bad (and he isn't the editor who comments on the editor rather than on content), but this is what the Committee has to evaluate. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: The exact issues that you referred to in the update to your statement are currently being discussed at WT:HA and WT:COI. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:49, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Brianhe

I completely agree with what Bishonen said above. Having worked shoulder-to-shoulder with Jytdog in the muckyard known as WP:COIN, his presence is severely missed. Misplaced Pages is not improved by maintaining this tban. His actions and words since then, especially in the ongoing debate over how WP:OUTING is currently understood, show that he understands the requirement as it stands. I'm sure there's going to be room for further comments here, but I wanted to get a word in as squarely in favor. - Brianhe (talk) 01:46, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Doc James

We need more active editors within the area of COI editing. Jytdog has made it clear that they will not repeat what got them blocked. Agree that the undisclosed paid editing / outing divide is exceedingly murky but here is not the place to discuss that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by The Wordsmith

Jytdog appears to be saying all the right things that we look for in an appeal. I'm going to accept on good faith that he means what he says. He seems to understand how to handle these sorts of situations correctly now, so (as someone who has criticized his behavior extensively in the past) I support lifting the restriction. Echoing Tryptofish, however, I would sound a note of caution that Jytdog's aggressiveness is another problem behavior, and I hope he works on it as he says he will. On the whole, the COIN area is better off with his insight than without it. The Wordsmith 15:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Kingofaces43

Bishonen, Brianhe, and others summarized it better than I could. The block and topic ban really surprised a lot of editors that work on COI because normally in practice, an editor that uses a variation of their name in their username that is reasonably linked to an author of a source the editor is using or an article topic is considered a straightforward COI and not in violation of outing at that point due to the username choice. That's beside the point now though. It's clear that Jytdog is one of the main contributors to educating COI editors on how to deal with that and preventing disruption from those editors in the process. The topic ban arguably causes more disruption considering how much good Jytdog does in dealing with such editors at COIN, etc.

While Jytdog can be short on occasion (I echo Tryptofish on reflecting a few seconds before clicking save), this is almost always (I would like to strike the almost someday) when dealing with extended tendentious behavior from other editors to the point where reasonable people can be expected to lose some patience. Then you get editors that do appear to hold a grudge against Jytdog through battleground behavior and following them around, and attention to that context is needed here with respect to David Tornheim's comments. David was one of the editors that was not topic-banned in the original GMO case, but was one of the many later DS topic banned and blocked editors that were missed that really needed to be removed from the topic to settle it down. That topic ban was in part due to not being able to let go of battleground behavior directed at Jytdog and other editors in the topic.

Now in his statement here, David is using Jytdog's standard warnings to Fixture to try to get them to stop edit warring as apparently poor behavior. That's frivolous at best. On the vague mention of topic ban violation, GMO is a nebulous term (us scientists rather hate the sloppiness it causes), but CRISPR-edited organisms fall in a different category than GMO (basic intro reading on this:) even with Jytdog's broadly construed topic ban, not to mention Tryptofish's comments. Just an additional clarification to Euryalus and others on that. However, by alluding to Jytdog's GMO topic ban, David is violating their own GMO topic ban (not a WP:BANEX instance). Such dancing around restrictions (i.e., clear meaning while not directly specifying GMO topic ban) was also part of the reasoning for David's topic ban. This is mostly outside the context of Jytdog's COI sanction, but since the GMO topic is being interjected, I figured it was worth clarifying for those not familiar with the GMO subject matter and on-wiki history. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by ImperferfectlyInformed

The main question in my mind: why is this necessary? Jytdog should able to work without accusing people of a conflict of interest. Focus on the content, not the editor. Perhaps clarifying that he can get involved with COI notified articles would help? I just don't see why you asking/accusing people of a COI helps a situation.

I experienced an abrasive accusation from Jytdog personally in late October (after he was topic-banned in August) when he essentially accused me of being a spammer (by calling the content I added "spammy", see diff) for adding a citation to the corporate website at uBiome. When I reacted with dismay at this unwarranted wording, his response was not exactly apologetic until it dragged out. I'll admit I wasn't perfect in this situation, either - in that I flew off the handle a bit. But the problem is that abrasiveness and poor language breeds unnecessary conflict and damage. Jytdog and I have edited around the same areas for several years without serious conflicts that I can recall, so for him to treat me like that makes me worry even more about the experience of newcomers. I'm hoping that sentiment analysis, mentoring, and additional tooling (with the recent focus by the WMF) will help to solve the problem of abrasiveness in a systematic way, but in the meantime I'm hoping we can hold firm about high expectations.

Before commenting, I glanced through Jytdog's recent contributions and it did seem to me that he was making a bit more of an effort to be courteous and stick to the content (altho it seemed like there there was lots of conflict). I'd rather not see any risk of politeness regressing due to a dive into talking about the editor rather than the content.

Now, I recognize that my comment may seem spiteful, and maybe on some level maybe I hold a grudge. My comment certainly won't score me any points in the small, tightly-knit circle of editors who frequent some of the same places that I do. But I frankly don't care about Misplaced Pages politics or hurting the feelings of long-term veterans. I'm concerned by the general perception, which is validated by my near-decade of years around this place, of Misplaced Pages as a hostile environment which pushes newcomers away.

Statement by Beyond My Ken

I do not have much to add, since Bishonen summed up the situation very well. The tension between outing and COI has been a concern of mine for many years now, and the current situation -- where, essentially, one must warn editors about COI or paid editing without being explicit about why the warning is being given -- is very unsatisfactory. Given the current restraints, making a mistake is very easy to do, and some allowances should be made for an editor such as Jytdog, who works very hard to protect the encyclopedia from biased editing. I urge the committee to lift the topic ban. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

The statement quoted above by Jytdog, made by me about eight months ago, still accurately describes my opinion of Jytdog. He is a contentious editor in contentious areas that need contentious editing, and is usually right. At this time, I haven't studied the details of this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

After having read the dispute, I may not be able to provide a statement that is entirely consistent with Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, because this case, in my opinion, illustrates a serious flaw in Misplaced Pages policies. There is a common saying that assume good faith is not a suicide pact. It should not be. However, the policy that the rule against doxing trumps the rule against paid editing comes very close to being a suicide pact. By giving bad-faith editors and spammers a greater right to edit pseudonymously than the right of Misplaced Pages readers to a neutral point of view, we are subtly inviting paid editors. I support leniency in enforcement of the rule against doxing paid editors because I don't support the rule against doxing paid editors. I don't know if the ArbCom is allowed to take that thought into consideration. I think that paid editors are parasites on Misplaced Pages and are not entitled to the right against exposure. I support the removal of the sanction from User:Jytdog, but am not sure that my support can be considered, because it is based on honorable disagreement with Misplaced Pages policy. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:08, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Jytdog: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• I've changed the name of this request to "Jytdog" for style. Arbs/others, let me know if you have any objections. Thanks, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 01:49, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Jytdog: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Support the lifting of the COI Topic-ban, largely per Bishonen. @David Tornheim:, thanks for posting those diffs but they seem to relate to GMO more than COI, and if so are not especially relevant to this ARCA. However please let me know if I have misinterpreted them, as it may require reconsideration of this support. @Jytdog:, Tryptofish is right about the occasionally aggressive tone; lifting this ban won't help you much if you get blocked for that instead. Just some passing advice, good luck with the remainder of the appeal. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:23, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
• @Jytdog: I do have my concerns having recently seen you start policy based discussions using out of context and non-literal interpretations. There is nothing wrong with trying to read between the lines and sometimes what is not said is as important as what is said. However, when it comes to reading and interpreting policies as they're written, there is much less room for open-ended interpretation or departing from their literal meaning. You also received a block as recently as 15 January 2017 following two warnings for violating the 3RR, a policy you would be well aware of as an experienced editor. The COI policies, particularly the ones around private personal information, have been of great interest to you lately and the effects of knowingly violating these policies are substantially greater than the 3RR. Would you care to speak about this recent block to alleviate any concerns about good judgement and restraint? Mkdw 01:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
• Let there be no doubt about the original outing--that's what it was. Jytdog, to his credit, does not deny that, but checking comments by others on his talk page from around that time shows some doubt is expressed. There is no need to litigate this. The naysayers here argue, it seems, that Jytdog has a temper and breaks his topic bans regularly; as far as I know, though, he hasn't broken the COI ban and that's what we're talking about here (nor is that evidence really conclusive, as far as I'm concerned). Now, I am not even that interested in Jytdog's temper; what I want to hear, as one of the arbs involved with that case and a sometime colleague of Jytdog, is a commitment to uphold OUTING (a bright line) and to err, in all cases of unclarity, on the side of caution. In cases of possible COIs this means, of course, that Jytdog cannot share what all he might know (and this may mean he needs to stop himself from going fishing, so to speak), and I think he knows that--but I want to hear it, and I need to hear that in order to support lifting the topic ban. Drmies (talk) 05:39, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Thanks dog--and thank you for your service. I support a lifting of the topic ban. Drmies (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
• I am definitely willing to take a removal of the restriction into consideration, but because we are on the topic of outing, you'll understand if I take it quite seriously and need to review things at length. I'm already writing this comment into borrowed time on my sleep, and the next chance I will have to review this is this coming weekend. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 08:56, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Jytdog: Motion

The topic ban from "all matters related to COI editing" imposed on Jytdog (talk · contribs) as part of the August 2016 unblock conditions is lifted. However, Jytdog is strongly warned any subsequent incident in which you reveal non-public information about another user will result in an indefinite block or siteban by the Arbitration Committee. To avoid ambiguity, "non-public information" includes (but is not limited to) any information about another user including legal names and pseudonyms, workplace, job title, or contact details, which that user has not disclosed themselves on the English Misplaced Pages or other WMF project.

For this motion there are 14 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 8 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:00, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
2. Support, though I think the first line would suffice. Jytdog has made it clear in his request that he understands future incidents will be dealt with harshly. Jytdog, thank you for sharing your essays on paid/COI editing and approaches to handling it, they were very much worth the read. GorillaWarfare (talk) 06:04, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
3. Thank you for your comments Jytdog. Mkdw 06:22, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
4. Support though per GorillaWarfare I think the first sentence is sufficient. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:49, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
5. Support, agreeing with Euryalus and GorillaWarfare that the first sentence is enough. Doug Weller talk 11:53, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
6. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
7. Drmies (talk) 18:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
8. On balance I support this, though I think there's a couple of important points to emphasize here. For one thing, you got blocked for one mistake, but you got a topic ban as an unblock condition in part because that one mistake occurred in the context of a history of boundary-pushing on the intersection of outing and COI issues. Second, I kind of wish this were more of a "I took a break from the subject and now I'm ready to return" than a "I've been working with one hand behind my back" thing. Working on COI stuff seems to be a lot like SPI or handling unblock requests, with similar risks of getting burned out from listening to BS a lot. Please go slow. Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:58, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
9. My thoughts are similar to Opabinia's. I was not on the Committee last year and do not have much background on the incident that led to the "outing" block, but I will credit Jytdog's assurance that that issue will not recur. Also, in Jytdog's favor is the fact that as reflected on his userpage, he has obviously given a great of thought to how COI and related issues on Misplaced Pages can best be addressed, and seems sincerely motivated to protect the neutrality and integrity of our content. That being said, I have an enduring concern that in some instances, our editors active in COI-prevention can sometimes lose sight of the fact that many "COI editors" are also BLP subjects or persons working on their behalf to mitigate legitimate article-content issues. In all but extreme situations, such people should be treated with the consideration due both to article subjects and to new editors. In particular, we should always bear in mind how natural it is for a BLP subject, whose English Misplaced Pages article is typically his or her number one search-engine result, to come here focused primarily on the article content and not on our internal policies and guidelines. See generally, Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Dealing with edits by the subject of the article; see also Misplaced Pages:FAQ/Article subjects. I hope that Jytdog, like others active in this arena, will bear this important concept in mind. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:06, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
10. Jytdog has grown from this incident, something we don't see too often. He's acknowledged the issues, taken a step back (relatively speaking, not completely) and reviewed. That, in my opinion, was the intent of the original sanction to force Jytdog to become aware of the issue with the outing that occurred. I'm less concerned than I feel OR and NYB are from reading Jytdog's statements, that said, I do not dismiss those concerns. I'm good with granting this appeal. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 06:24, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
11. Mostly per OR and Newyorkbrad. Ks0stm 16:33, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
12. DGG ( talk ) 05:31, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

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