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Revision as of 14:36, 30 April 2017

Before posting, check the archives and list of perennial sources for prior discussions. Context is important: supply the source, the article it is used in, and the claim it supports.

Sections older than 5 days archived by lowercase sigmabot III.

Additional notes:

• WP:RSN
• WP:RS/N
• WP:V/N

• RFCs for deprecation, blacklisting, or other classification should not be opened unless the source is widely used and has been repeatedly discussed. Consensus is assessed based on the weight of policy-based arguments.
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Sources on Estonian police battalion

Sources:

• Collaboration with the Nazis: Public Discourse after the Holocaust, edited by Roni Stauber; chapter by Yitzhak Arad

• "The report deals with the role Estonian auxiliarry forces in crimes committed outside of Estonia. ... On 7 August 1942, Estonian police battalion No 36 took part in the round-up and execution of all remaining Jews..." (somewhat loose paraphrasing, exact quote in the link)

• The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945; edited by Geoffrey P. Megargee:

• "On August 7 1942, the Germans and their collaborators (including Estonian Police Battalion 36 ...) took away the remaining inmates (...) and shot them there": link.

• In contrast, Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity states: "There is no reliable data concerning the participation of members of the 36th Estonian Defence Battalion in the execution of Jews". ("Estonian defence battalions / police battalions". In Toomas Hiio; Meelis Maripuu; Indrek Paavle. Estonia 1940–1945: Reports of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity. Tallinn. pp. 825–876)

Article: 36th Estonian Police Battalion

Content: "In August 1942, the battalion participated in the murder of Jews in Novogrudok, Belarus."

The relevant Talk page discussion can be found here: Talk:36th_Estonian_Police_Battalion#Novogrudok. Courtesy ping to Nug & Jaan. I would appreciate additional input on this matter. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

It's very interesting that the West German investigation in the early '60s could not prove participation in the killing as I wouldn't think that they'd have any reason to whitewash the Communist gov't of the time. I think that what we have here is reliable sources on both sides, so I'd suggest laying out the evidence like so: "The battalion has been accused of participating in the killings of Jews at X, on Y, (sources) but a West German investigation in the early 1960s could not conclusively link its members to the action(source)" and let the reader decide. RSN isn't meant to decide which evidence is the "best", and that's all I'm afraid that we could accomplish here.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:12, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I wonder if there might be some clarification in the text of the second source, or possibly in any sources these themselves cite. I say this because the sources don't necessarily contradict. The first states the role the police played in the killings cannot be determined, whereas the second states that there is no evidence they participated in the executions. If the two sources are taking very different interpretations of "involvement", they might actually agree. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:46, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

The talk page discussion mentions WP:WPNOTRS, and claims that we shouldn't use tertiary sources. However, WP:WPNOTRS doesn't really say that - it says secondary sources are preferred but tertiary sources are reliable also. In practice, we use specialty encyclopedias quite a lot, as they are often written by experts in the field they cover. I'd consider The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos to be a specialty encyclopedia that is probably quite a good source for information on its subject matter. And I'll also note that the three volumes of the The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos are quite extensively researched and do actually include sources for most entries. I don't have the first volume available at the moment (even I quail at buying the books - they are pricey!) but I do have the second volume here at hand and a glance through shows every article has a list of sources as well as most having footnotes. I'd suggest getting the book through interlibrary loan and consulting whatever sources are used for the entry snippeted above. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

And the work on Collaboration is also post-Cold War and the section by Arad would definitely be considered a reliable source for this subject, as Arad is a researcher in the field of the Holocaust in the Baltics. His work is most definitely NOT a tertiary source, it is in fact a secondary source also. He may be wrong, but its equally likely the commission was wrong also - especially if it based its conclusions on a West German commission from 1971, prior to the opening of many archives after the Cold War. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:51, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Your point about the West German commission not having full access to archival data is a good one, but none of these sources can be impeached as they're all post-Cold War and the commission doesn't even have any Estonian nationals as members. I'd need to see the sources myself, to see which way the preponderance of evidence lies if I were writing this article myself. But really, this is disagreement between reliable sources and should be discussed either in the main body of the article or a footnote, not a RS issue at all.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I don't think we should take sides on either side - it appears to be a disagreement between sources ... all of which appear reliable. The ideal solution is to cover the controversy in the article. Both sides should be presented, and other sources brought to bear. A good start would be getting the Encyclopedia and seeing what sources it used. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:54, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I would first also cite this close study in Estonian, that, based on historical documents and interviews with historians also comes to the conclusion that there is no evidence to suggest the police battalion participated in the roundup of the Jews. And let me also point out that this is not a case of poor or missing documentation. The main discrepancy between the sources seems to be generality vs. specificity. The sources that claim the role of the police battalion may be generally reliable and use reliable PS but in this specific case either do not specify their sources or rely on indirect evidence, e.g. "The reports of this squad report many entries on "military action against partisans," a phrase which conceals punitive measures against citizens and the killing of Jews."

The dispute between the sources is not notable enough to warrant a passage in the article so my suggestion is to include it in a footnote. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:54, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

The Ekspress source appears to be a general newspaper - at least I see articles on movies and other such topics on the main page of it. Google translate gives a very very rough translation which appears to be either a letter to the editor or an editoriak, which is supported by the translation of "PEKKA ERELT, EESTI EKSPRESSI AJALOOKÜLGEDE TOIMETAJA" which google gives as "PEKKA Erelt, Eesti Ekspress HISTORY sides of EDITOR". I'd suggest that the Ekspress is not exactly a scholarly secondary source here. Certainly, there appears to be a commission that does not think the brigade took part in the events. Unfortunately, an unsigned newspaper article is not a strong source contradicting the United States Holocaust Museum's encyclopedia of the various German labor/extermination camps, nor Arad, who is a scholar working in the field. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:44, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Pekka Erelt is the editor of the history section of the Eesti Ekspress. His article may not be scholarly but it is investigative journalism. Even if we do not consider his own discussion, we should not dismiss the quotes by professional historians Meelis Maripuu, Argo Kaasik and Enn Kaup in his article. And again, this is a matter of specificity. The core of this problem is trusting a general RS over specific investigation on this matter. And, again, the conclusions of the Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity are not another opinion of 'a commission' but the conclusions of the commission established to investigate crimes by Estonian citizens. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 10:59, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

It appears that the commission does not rule out the possibility that the Police Battalion participated in the massacre. If I'm Google translating it correctly, the opening para of the Estee Ekspress reads:

• Novogrudok, Belarus received notoriety among Estonians lately. Allegedly, the 36th Police Battalion took part in the mass murder of Jews committed there in August 1942. At least, Efraim Zuroff of the Simon Wiesenthal Center is certain of it. The wording in the report by the Estonian International Commission for Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity is more modest; the report, however, did not rule out the participation of the Estonians. (Not sure if "more modest" is the correct translation.) link

It seems to be an incident of significance & deserves more than a footnote in the article, IMO. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:41, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

The Eesti Ekspress article was written in 2002, while the commission's work was still in progress, so obviously the commission "did not rule out the participation of the Estonians" at that time because it hadn't completed it's review of all the available evidence, including the 1960's West German investigation and post-war Soviet investigations. The commission's final report, published in 2006, concluded there was no evidence found relating to the participation of 36th Battalion. --Nug (talk) 04:10, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

From the Talk page: The report states on page 861 that the 36th Police Battalion was investigated in the Federal Republic of Germany between 1967 to 1971 and no evidence was found -- "no evidence found" does not mean that the commission established that the Police Battalion did not participate. What was the commission's conclusion? (As an aside, I would not put too much weight into a criminal investigation in West Germany in the 1960-10s, due to various reasons, which are too long to get in here). K.e.coffman (talk) 04:39, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Why wouldn't you put too much weight on a criminal investigation of West German Police in 1960-70? I could understand your concern if they where investigating their own countrymen, but they spent four years investigating a non-German unit composed of nationals from the then Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War. The Commission states on page 862 of their final report: According to data gathered by Israeli police in September 1963, about 2000 and atleast 3000 Jews were murdered in Diatlovo and Nowogrodek on 6 and 7 August 1942 respectively. There is no reliable data concerning the participation of members of the 36th Estonian Defence Battalion in the execution of Jews. Contemporary researchers accuse the local German gendarmerie, one Lithuanian unit and a Belorussian defence battalion of these specific actions.. Footnote cites Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde : Die deutche Wirtschafts und Vernichtungspolitik in Wießrußland 1941 bis 1944, Hamburg, 2000, pp. 701-702. --Nug (talk) 01:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Note re: "investigating a non-German unit composed of nationals from the then Soviet Union" -- presumably, the members of the Battalion retreated with the Germans and were residing either in West Germany or elsewhere in Western Europe; the Battalion's commander, Harald Riipalu, emigrated to the U.K, for example. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Don't see how that is significant, given that the majority of the Battalion where captured by the Soviets. Upon what basis do you dismiss investigations of West German police? As I understand it, there was an issue in the late 1950's to early 1960's in regard to the Police investigating their own members who may have committed crimes during the Nazi period, but I think it is too much to claim that this would have impeded investigations of foreign personnel in the late 60's to early 70's. --Nug (talk) 10:04, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Conclusions of the Commission

I tracked down the Commission's conclusions, and here's what the document says:

• "The study of Estonian military units is complicated by frequent changes in unit designation, in personnel and in duties, some of which are poorly recorded. However, it has been possible by careful use of Soviet era trial records, matched against material from the Estonian archives, to determine that Estonian units took an active part in at least one well-documented round-up and mass murder in Belarus. The 36th Police Battalion participated on August 7, 1942 in the gathering together and shooting of almost all the Jews still surviving in the town of Novogrudok.

"In the published records, this unit was described as fighting against partisans at the time. The Commission believes that although there clearly were numerous engagements between police units and partisans, "fighting against partisans" and "guarding prisoner of war camps" were at times ways of describing participation in actions against civilians, including Jews."

This is stated on page XXI: Conclusions of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes Against Humanity (PDF). So I really don't see the contradiction between the finding of the Commission, The Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos and Yitzhak Arad.

Does the statement "There is no reliable data concerning the participation of members of the 36th Estonian Defence Battalion in the execution of Jews" perhaps refer to the act of actually pulling the trigger? Unless I'm missing something, the sources agree that the Battalion in question was indeed involved. Ping those who have previously participated: @Nug, Ealdgyth, and Sturmvogel 66: to have a look. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:02, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Seems that both The Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos and Yitzhak Arad are paraphrasing this document you found, so obviously there would not be any contradiction. The basis of this appears to be the view that "fighting against partisans" was code for killing Jewish civilians. But it isn't clear how they arrived at that, as it appears to contradict the main body of the report itself, which devotes several pages to the activities of the Battalion and asserts there no reliable data concerning the participation of members of the 36th Estonian Defence Battalion. Are you able to access Gerlach's work and quote the original German here, perhaps that may shed further light, I've given the relevant page numbers above. --Nug (talk) 10:04, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

This document found comes from the website of the commission http://www.mnemosyne.ee/hc.ee/ and is called "Conclusions of the Commission". Are you saying that the Commission is contradicting its own conclusions? There's got to be more context around this. K.e.coffman (talk) 10:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

No, I said it appears to contradict the main body of the report itself, which explicitly states "There is no reliable data concerning the participation of members of the 36th Estonian Defence Battalion in the execution of Jews". Do you have access to Gerlach's work Kalkulierte Morde, pp701-702? --Nug (talk) 11:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have access to Gerlach. If I sent you an email, would you be able to scan and email the relevant pages from the main body of the report (assuming its in English)? I'd like to see more context around their conclusion. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:57, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

That is a pity, with you being able to cite more obscure German historians, like Sönke Neitzel and Wolfgang Schneider, in other articles, you may have also had access to Gerlach. I can scan the relevant pages, but I don't have easy access to a scanner, perhaps I could go to the local library over the weekend. --Nug (talk) 05:39, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I would look forward to it. BTW, Sönke Neitzel is not at all obscure. He is a leading German military historian; his 2011 book Soldaten: German POWs on Fighting, Killing, and Dying (with Harald Welzer) was a sensation in Germany. The book was published in English and is even available as an audio book. It's a fascinating read; I highly recommend it. See also this interview (in English):

• "Mindset of WWII German Soldiers": video interview with Neitzel discussing Soldaten, via the official YouTube channel of The Agenda (TVOntario).

K.e.coffman (talk) 05:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Nug: any luck? K.e.coffman (talk) 23:41, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Vladimir Lenin

Fischer, Louis (1964). The Life of Lenin. London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson.

• In 1964 many Lenin's texts were classified.
• Louis Fischer was a journalist, not a historian. He had emotional problems with Communism, first a supporter, later a critic.Xx236 (talk) 05:35, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
• Lenin was anti-imperialist, and believed that all nations deserved "the right of self-determination". - the statement misinforms. Lenin opposed foreign imperialism but he recreated the Russian empire. Georgia didn't have "the right of self-determination", so apparently Lenin rejected the idea.

References

1. Fischer 1964, p. 87. sfn error: no target: CITEREFFischer1964 (help)

--Xx236 (talk) 05:40, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Shub, David (1966). Lenin: A Biography (revised ed.). London: Pelican.

• The book was published in 1949. Shub was a revolutionary. Such text should be studied as a historiical source, not a contemporary book, Xx236 (talk) 08:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The subject is serious, please comment. Xx236 (talk) 10:48, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

As the editor responsible for getting the Lenin article to FA status several months ago (following both a GAN and a PR), I would like to explain a little further. Fischer's 1964 biography of Lenin is just one of many biographical and historical sources used in this article. It is, without doubt, a WP:Reliable Source. Louis Fischer was indeed a journalist by trade, but published a number of well received and densely researched biographies on prominent political figures like Gandhi and Lenin. Indeed, his Lenin biography was awarded the 1965 National Book Award in History and Biography. Of course, he was restricted to the sources that were available in 1964, but even by that time a great deal of material was available for him to use. Just because his work does not cite the material that became available in the 1990s following the collapse of the USSR does not make his work non-Reliable; moreover, a number of biographies (such as those of Robert Service and Dmitri Volkogonov) which were published after the collapse are also extensively cited in this article, so it is not as if older sources are being used in place of more recent ones.

If Fischer's work is so clearly an RS and has been accepted as a legitimate source through GAN, PR, and FAC, why is Xx236 so keen to be rid of it? The answer can be seen in Xx236's repeated WP:Advocacy over at the Lenin article and its talk page. Xx236 is passionately and openly anti-Lenin and anti-Soviet and has repeatedly attempted to reshape the article to reflect their own, deeply anti-Lenin stance. They have repeatedly expressed their views on the Talk Page and attempted to add additional (poorly referenced) information into the article; the latter has been removed. Their attempt to undermine Fischer as a source is because Fischer is not as passionately anti-Lenin as Xx236 is and does not reflect the image of Lenin that Xx236 wants to see projected. Their actions here are just further evidence of this WP:Advocacy. Midnightblueowl (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The only legitimate argument I could see is that as an older biography it *may* (not is) be being used to source material that has been directly contradicted by later-released information. From looking at the article though, I cant see that it is. Is Fischer being used for anything that has subsequently been superseded? Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:30, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

If Fischer isn't important, why to quote him? Xx236 (talk) 06:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Xx236, I don't think anyone has said he isn't important. Precision is important in these discussions, hein. — O Fortuna 06:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I have quoted (above) exteremely biased phrase attributed to Fischer. The authors refuse to cooperate,Three wise monkeys.

Xx236 (talk) 06:47, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

"refuse to cooperate" in this instance meaning expressing disagreement with Xx236's blatant WP:Advocacy. Midnightblueowl (talk) 20:22, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Why famousbirthdays.com is a reliable source for birth dates

For whatever reason there are some editors that don't think this is a reliable source. However the reasons given don't make any sense. First it's not a website that anyone can edit. They have a physical address and contact information if you want to contact them. They have a whole list of their staff of editors, writers, managers and many more. It's not a fan website, which is what some editors have claimed. Here are some links to check it out. http://www.famousbirthdays.com/team/. As you can see all employees mentioned have bios and they all appear to have college degrees, which is more than can be said about wikipedia editors. I don't see any reason as to why they are not a reliable source.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 02:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Having college degrees is not really an indication that the employees are a reliable source. Because this site is being used as a source for WP:Biographies of living persons, they should be held to the highest standards of fact-checking and reliability. Their request for facts from readers of the site is a bit concerning: "Help complete pending profiles by submitting missing info" ; "Suggest an update to an existing celebrity profile" (http://www.famousbirthdays.com/about/). I'm a bit dubious. Can you show any mainstream reliable sources that use this site to cite information on birthdays and the like? First Light (talk) 03:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Yep. Basically, this is no different than IMDb, which has been consistently ruled to be WP:NOTRS (as per WP:RS/IMDb), for exactly the same reason – it's WP:USERGENERATED. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:54, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

No you're wrong it is not user generated information. It's not like wikipedia you can't edit the page and they do say people can make suggestions, but it doesn't says that they are just going to post everything that they get.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 04:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

My point is that they hire editors and researchers. It says suggest and update or help complete, they are not requesting anything. I'm sure they check to see if the information is accurate before they post it, why else would hire experts. There is a contact us link if you have questions or concerns has anyone thought of using that. In an earlier discussion an editor suggested that they don't fact check, but there's no indication of that. No I don't have a way of confirming any mainstream sources that use it. From the bio of the Director of Operations it sounds like they reach out to celebrities personally for the information. It sounds like they have huge team gathering information and there is nothing wrong with asking the public, but it's not like wikipedia where anyone can edit the pages.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 03:59, 22 April 2017 (UTC)AllSportsfan16 (talk) 04:01, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

This is no different than IMDb – IMDb also has people that "check" submissions and either approve or decline them. But the editorial control and fact-checking is insufficient to be considered a "reliable source" for the purposes of Misplaced Pages, especially for BLPs. Famousbirthdays.com is in exactly the same boat... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, this is not a reliable source of birthdate information. VQuakr (talk) 04:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

In the bio of the head of operations it says As director of data and operations, Nate helps the marketing team connect with celebrities and he also helps data scientists and writers profile celebrities. So no they aren't just checking people's submissions. They are doing there own research look at how many editors, writers, researches, data scientists and others that they have hired. You don't hire that many people unless you are doing research why pay that many people if there just excepting fan submissions. Unlike IMDB you cannot create an account on famousbirthdays, while you can submit suggestions it doesn't just add them. So basically everyone that's saying it's an unreliable source is saying that they hire researches, writers, editors, data scientists and others just to spend money, meanwhile they just accept all fan submissions as true and post them. You're thinking is ridiculous. Employees cost money, companies don't hire them to do nothing.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 04:24, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

• ugh, no. Celebrity gossip site with user-submitted data. I recognize that it can be difficult to find RS for birthdates but this is not the way to go. Jytdog (talk) 04:37, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Okay, how many times do I need to say that they DO NOT rely on user-submitted data. Look at their team page they have hired lots of researchers, editors, data scientists. A company does not hire people to have them do nothing, employees cost MONEY if they were just relying on user submitted data they would not hire that many people. Sure you can suggest submissions, but they are not automatically excepted like wiki sites are.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 04:47, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

I do hear you saying that - the many, many times you have said it. Not buying it necessarily. There is no sign where they do get their information or how they check it. Claiming to have lots of bodies means nothing. Jytdog (talk) 02:25, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Since you addressed me, let me ask you. Why are you arguing so fiercely for this? Why does this source matter so much to you? Jytdog (talk) 02:26, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I used it for one article, but was told it wasn't reliable so I wanted to prove that it was. It also makes it easier to cite birth dates for younger actors that their might be less information on. I did find another source for the article, but it did have the same date as famousbirthdays.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 04:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

You have not proven that this website is a reliable source. There is strong consensus here that is does not meet Misplaced Pages standards for sourcing, especially for Biographies of Living Persons. First Light (talk) 11:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Correct, there's no indication that they use user-submitted data. Inviting readers to help by "submitting missing info" or "suggest an update" simply leads to an email form. That could be marketing (and the email goes in the bit bucket), but more likely it is a rational and functional avenue to receive suggestions (which they can then vet) in case they have something wrong or missing. Would you prefer if they say "We don't publish our email address, since we don't care if you think anything on this site is wrong."

Second of all, what's their business model? Based on their name, it is "providing correct birthdays", at least as a start. And indeed in this interview with the founder (which may be equivalent to a press release, I am not familiar with that site -- but no matter, it is a statement from the founder either way) he says just that. And they have a staff (unless they're lying and all those portraits are stock photos -- which is not impossible), so they seem to have sufficient bodies on hand for somebody to do fact-checking, if they want to.

So if "providing correct birthdays" is their business model, not caring if they get their birthday data correct or not would be a quick way to go out of business, n'est-ce pas? So they probably want to get the data correct, although it's possible they're too stupid to do so.

But if they're not lying or stupid (which they could be, but of course that's true of anyone), then I would think that at least for birthday data they would be somebody to consider.

Sure, they look like the kind of site that you would tease your sister for reading. But so? What does that have to do with how rigorous their fact-checking operation is or is not? Herostratus (talk) 05:09, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Previous discussion at WP:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_153#Is_famousbirthdays.com_a_reliable_source_for_personal_information. I see same issues as with IMDb, they don't say where they get their information and what process they use to validate it. Mostly just "trust us". I expect they may just go to IMDb to get whatever IMDb says as a first pass of research and publish it but, again, who knows as they won't tell us their process. They may go to Misplaced Pages for all we know. I expect they do a basic web search for their information and populate their database with what they find. Might be an automated web scraper. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:29, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

↑ THIS. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:51, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah maybe. A lot of this is really just guesswork though, I think. What'd be good would a compare-and-contrast between the information-acquisition and fact-checking operation of this site and say People magazine. Info like that is hard to get though. Herostratus (talk) 02:49, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I've been closely looking at famousbirthdays.com since January. If you want to see the quality of their work, I suggest editors compare http://www.famousbirthdays.com/people/alicia-grimes.html with the press releases and other poor sources offered for Alicia Grimes by Iamterrell5 (talk · contribs) who is the contact person for some of the press releases. Whatever editing and fact-checking famousbirthdays.com is doing, it's obviously poor. I am also under the distinct impression that marketers like http://www.evancarmichael.com (which clearly Grimes and Iamterrell5 are working with, if Iamterrell5 isn't an evancarmichael.com employee) are recommending that people use Famousbirthdays.com as a marketing vehicle because of the ease of getting them to publish profiles.

Famousbirthdays.com appears to be a go-to-website for attempts to promote people. Famousbirthdays.com does not divulge their sources nor their criteria for inclusion, but they apparently have very low standards for both. We're getting at least a few additions each week, all in poorly-sourced BLPs.

http://www.famousbirthdays.com/terms/ : We don't warranty the accuracy or suitability of the information found on our platform for any particular purpose. We acknowledge that such information and materials may contain inaccuracies and we thus absolve ourselves of any liability for any such inaccuracies to the extent permitted by law. We do encourage our users to contact us regarding any potential inaccuracy found on our platform. --Ronz (talk) 17:02, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

If someone would like me to stop my regular cleanup of this source, please note it. --Ronz (talk) 17:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like regular legal terminology to cover themselves, in case of any errors. It's a statement any organization would make because it is so easy to sue in the United States. Also just to be clear I'm not supporting using this source for creating bios on Misplaced Pages, I'm just supporting using the birthdates, because according to the company's CEO and founder that is their main goal anyways. I haven't seen one instance where they have incorrectly published a birth date.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 04:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

No, it's great. This is valuable insight from an editor who has actually investigated the site over time. Sounds like it is no good, and fine. With the spamming added in, I wonder if it is blacklist-worthy? Herostratus (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

@AllSportsfan16: Sounds like regular legal terminology... Seems like you are just ignoring all evidence in preference for your personal opinion. That's not how we build consensus. You already settled on removing famousbirthdays.com from the article you were working on. You don't appear interested at all in looking at the larger issues. I haven't seen one instance where they have incorrectly published a birth date. Again, it doesn't appear you've looked. --Ronz (talk) 14:56, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ronz: That statement is not evidence of anything, I have a background in business law and any organization would have to have a legal statement like that absolving them of liability it would be dumb not to. I was forced to remove it otherwise I wouldn't have. How do you know if I've looked. With regards to just birth dates I've examined many of the people and all of them are accurate. No one on here has been able to show that any birth date on their website is inaccurate.AllSportsfan16 (talk) 19:20, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

@AllSportsfan16: I started a previous discussion about this site as I noticed a blatant biographical mistake identifying an Australian actress as being Welch so asked for opinions about the site being usable as a reliable source of bio info. They have fixed that particular error, but something that blatant should never have slipped through with any degree of reasonable fact checking. Geraldo Perez (talk) 19:39, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Sources that cite sources Orr more about British Israel.

An interesting question has (I think) been raised over at BI.

Let us say that an RS cites a source we have decided is not RS, is that cite not unreliable?Slatersteven (talk) 08:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The answer depends on a)the information and how it is presented, b)the article/area, c)the sources themselves. Unreliable sources may be reliable for some information. If a source we would describe as unreliable has a story picked up by say the BBC, depending on how the BBC presents it, we might use it because it is expected the BBC (as a usually reliable organisation) will have done some diligence on their end. If however the BBC reports 'The Daily Mail has claimed a woman gave birth to a dog', the best we could use it to support is the Daily Mail has claimed a woman gave birth to a dog, not that a woman has given birth to a dog. And given that particular claim would be almost unusuable anywhere anyway, the point shouldnt come up that often. In short - please provide A, B and C as requested at the top of this noticeboard in order to get an accurate answer. Only in death does duty end (talk) 08:38, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

It would be hard, as the sources that raised this question does not in fact (apparently) even mention the non RS source. Thus this was more of a general question really. This was the edit by the way. Slatersteven (talk) 08:43, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

As a general answer: sometimes. For that particular reference, I would want to read the section/page in context to see how they use Orr. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Sources for filmography of Erin Moran

Hi, I'm looking for clarification of the appropriacy of using IMDb as a sole source for the filmography section of an actor's article, in this case Erin Moran. I have read the advice at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Citing_IMDb and at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Film/Resources#Questionable_resources and I removed the filmography section as it was unsourced. Other editors have replaced it, claiming that IMBd is an acceptable source in this situation (discussion on talk page). Would appreciate some clarification. Thanks! MurielMary (talk) 08:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:RS/IMDB is quite clear on this. Use of IMDB as a sole source is discouraged due to its unreliability. It certainly shouldnt be used as a sole source for 'uncredited' appearances. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:29, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Keep in mind the reason it is used for released films & TV shows, is that as a primary source, the credits can be verified from watching said film/TV show. Which is why IMDB is more reliable for credited released films/TVs etc. Obviously if someone is uncredited, you cant do that. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:33, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, "the credits can be verified from watching said film/TV show". 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:ADF3:C706:1C77:4C80 (talk) 14:24, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Not always however, and not for uncredited roles. And for some older programs/films its not possible to verify the credits as the primary source is not available, in which a reliable secondary source is required. Which IMDB is not. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

IMDb is a convenience source of information about released projects with the assumption that the people who added the info to IMDb faithfully transcribed it from the actual verifiable reliable source, the credits as embedded in the released project itself. If something is not in the credit we obviously can't check the credits to verify that the person was in the project but not credited so need something else. Basically for a list of credits it is implied that the listed project's embedded credit list itself is the reliable primary source so shouldn't be listing IMDb as the source. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Exactly, "it is implied that the listed project's embedded credit list itself is the reliable primary source". 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:ADF3:C706:1C77:4C80 (talk) 16:07, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

So where would someone find an "embedded credit list"? What is that? Do you mean the credits which appear onscreen? MurielMary (talk) 09:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes. This is why IMDB is used as a convenience issue for released media (and not upcoming etc) as the credits are embedded and finalised at that point. For games, films, TV I can go watch/rent/borrow/download/buy a copy and view the credits. As a primary source on who is involved in said media. Where you cant reasonably have access to anything (particular old TV series/films which have not been re-broadcast or are not available otherwise) you need a reliable secondary source. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

• IMDb is a fine filmography source for credited roles in movies/TV/etc. - are there possibly even better sources for such information? Sure, but there's really nothing wrong with using IMDb as a citation for mainstream filmographies. Guy1890 (talk) 06:06, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Little Mix

I was reviewing the Little Mix article and I noticed a citation was needed regarding ancestry of one of the group members.

The article states that

Pinnock is of Barbadian and Jamaican ancestry.

. I found an online article that was used to cite another member's ethnic background. The source was reliable for the cited quote because that particular member claimed her ethnic background but I am unsure if it will be reliable for my citation needed since Pinnock did not claim her ethnic background herself, but rather Thirlwall claimed that Pinnock had Jamaican and Bajan ancestry. Alanna.davis (talk) 16:20, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

References

1. http://www.mtv.co.uk/little-mix/news/little-mix-have-the-longest-running-girl-group-no1-of-the-millennium

If the statement was reworded so that it is clear that Thirlwall prvided the information it would be fine. Martinlc (talk) 15:31, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Gellately

The reverser insists on taking the source without much argument. Is she reliable? 201.17.176.127 (talk) 00:06, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

The Oxford University Press has a reputation for fact checking and editorial oversight, so it is probablt=y a Reliable Soruce. However, if this is the only source to be found that supports the statement in the article, its inclusion may be UNDUE.Martinlc (talk) 15:35, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

The source does not support the statement that there was cooperation with the FBI, all it does is report one visit by an FBI official to Germany. The book, and presumably its author, is an authority on Nazi Germany, not the USA.Martinlc (talk) 15:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

al-Masdar news at Battle of Aleppo, Stormfront, Neo-Nazis

The source Al-Masdar News is used extensively at the article Battle of Aleppo (2012–16), as well as many other Syria related articles. Now, this source has an obvious and very strong pro-Assad bias, as even those editors who want to use it admit. It's also a fairly new source which has become somewhat popular mostly due to the fact that it's stories get reposted by various alt-right outlets and conspiracy websites, such as Alex Jones' InfoWars. Indeed, they are the ones behind the #SyriaHoax conspiracy theory . They have been designated as a "fake news" website by some outlets , although not everything they publish is obvious "fake news".

So I'm pretty sure this source is NOT reliable, generally speaking. However, in the interest of compromise, I'm willing to see it used for non-controversial text such as troops strength or territorial control, especially since this kind of info can often be corroborated with other sources. Per WP:REDFLAG however, there's no way in freakin' heck that this source should be used for anything controversial, as some editors are attempting to, for example here (this has been removed and reinserted several times)

But it gets worse.

Recently it came out that one of the deputy editors of al-Masdar has been active on the neo-Nazi website Stormfront for years, where, in addition to using it to organize violent attacks on minorities and others, he disparaged ethnic groups using terms such as "sand niggers" (sic), "gooks" (sic) and "favela monkeys" (sic). . The CEO of al-Masdar has admitted that this is indeed the case and the guilty editor was suspended... with pay (basically they gave him a nice vacation hoping this would blow over). Another editor at al-Masdar however, tried to play it all down saying the statements on Stormfront were merely "controversial" (because you know, talking about how you like to "beat up sand niggers" is just "controversial")

I've brought this issue up at the talk page . The response from one of the most tendentious supporters of al-Masdar was ... and I am NOT kidding here - that "if a NY Times editor was caught making the same offensive remarks at Stormfront, we wouldn't be dismissing NYT as a source altogether on Misplaced Pages".

That's right - that was the response. Apparently, it's okay to use a source which employs neo-Nazis, because if in some alternative bizarro world universe, the New York Times employed neo-Nazis, the alternative Misplaced Pages of that universe would still use the NY Times as a source. You can't make this stuff up. Personally I think a comment such as this is so a blatant statement of non-neutrality, bias, bad faith, WP:BATTLEGROUND and dishonesty, that it should lead to an immediate topic ban from an area, but never mind that for now. This is WP:RSN.

Now, there is a related RfC on the talk page at the article. However, this article has had a problem with sock puppets, meat puppets and tag teams (most likely coordinated off-wiki) for years. Hence it needs some fresh eyes and help from uninvolved editors. Which is why I'm bringing it up here. Also, I think it should be pretty obvious that a few obstinate editors cannot get together and declare a non-reliable source magically reliable in contravention of site-wide consensus as represented by WP:RS which I assume disallows the use of sources that have neo-Nazis writing for them, at least for any controversial info.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

This request is highly concerning and dubious for several reasons :

• Al-Masdar does not employ Neo-Nazis. This is intellectually dishonest and entirely based on a political POV this editor does not agree with.
• In war articles labelling one side's views as "conspiracy theories" shows a high level of bias against NPOV and in support of factions aligned with Al Qaeda.
• This editor seems consumed with making WP:DRNC and WP:JDL edits when clear consensus is against him.
• Argument seems largely based on personal attacks on sources and other editors and WP:JDL POV . The Grudges (talk) 10:20, 30 April 2017 (UTC) (strike sock ~ Rob₁₃ 13:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC))

Great, the sockpuppets are here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

The politics of the source are irrelevant when determining it's status as RS. What matters if do they have proper editorial control and check facts, not that they believes a certain ideology. Does the nominator have any evidence they make up facts?Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

First, ideology actually is not irrelevant for reliability since WP:FRINGE also applies. And as far as facts go, see the diffs provided above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:50, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes it is because a person can be a anti-nazi and still (for example) support the flat earth theory. As to the diffs, this may well be the case, that they are aan arm of the Syrian government and thus should be used with care. That does not mean they are not RS for what the Syrian government claims. So lets see what they are being used for, what is it you object to?Slatersteven (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I have a very valid Washington Post source somewhere in my edit history that clearly shows SOHR is impossible to fact check that could be used to WP:BOOMERANG this notion and create a discussion about that. The Grudges (talk) 11:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC) (strike sock ~ Rob₁₃ 13:58, 30 April 2017 (UTC))

(ec) We're not talking about flat earth theory. We're talking about politics. And somebody who wrote stories about people he referred to as "sand niggers" (sic). It's like as if you were arguing that the fact someone belonged to the KKK was irrelevant for their stories about the Civil Rights movement. Come on!Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

I provided a specific diff above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 11:01, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

No, we are talking about war, in which both side tell lies. Nor does that even matter, a person can still be "politically correct" and still tell lies about politics, ideology may be an indicator of intelligent not of honesty. As to your one diff, this could be reworded as a claim (that is what it is), why does only one side get to make accusations of atrocities?Slatersteven (talk) 11:13, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Sources on Buddhism

I'm posting here because we were requested to take our dispute here by @Winged Blades of Godric: who closed our with the recommendation:

"There seems to be be little progress towards a common consensus in spite of the extensive discussions. Participants are requested to take this for formal mediation or to WP:RSN."

I don't see how formal mediation can work, as there is no sign of any consensus emerging or likely to emerge on this. But clarification on reliable sources perhaps could help.

First some background. The reason for the DRN is that I wished to tag Four Noble Truths, Anatta, Nirvana and Karma in Buddhism as POV. I tried adding a tag to one of these articles, but it was removed. There was no consensus on the talk page to remove the tag. We have tried a DRN in order to resolve the dispute, but there is still no consensus about whether they can be tagged as POV.

One of the main issues in this discussion is that we have different ideas of what count as WP:RS in the Buddhism topic area. My view is that recognized and well regarded experts in Buddhist scholarship such as Walpola Rahula, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalai Lama (who is a scholar as well as the Dalai Lama with the highest academic qualifications available in Tibetan Buddhism and many books to his name), Bikkhu Sujato, Ringu Tulku, Thích Nhất Hạnh, Ajahn Sumedho, Geshe Tashi Tsering, Chogyam Trungpa, Pema Chodron etc would all count as WP:RS secondary sources in the Buddhism topic area.

@Joshua Jonathan: and @Ms Sarah Welch: often revert edits on the basis that they are only cited to Buddhist scholars such as these, and are not backed up by Western academic sources. which you say are required as "secondary" because they are "two steps away". They claim that the articles are NPOV even though most of the text covers the views of these western academics and their many criticisms and reformulations of sutra tradition Buddhism, because they are "secondary sources" who are not directly involved.

Their policy so far has been that sutra tradition Buddhist views can only be included if also explained by Western academics and commented on by them. So, we need this clarified first, which I think is why @Winged Blades of Godric: suggested this as our next stop rather than the NPOVN. Sutra tradition Buddhism covers Theravada, Zen Buddhism, Mahayana, Vajrayana because they all accept slight variations on the core sutras of the Pali Canon as the words of the Buddha along with some extra texts of their own.

If these Buddhist scholars in all the Buddhist traditions are recognized as WP:RS that can be used in their own right, then the current articles are POV as they do not present their views in their own right, only as coloured by the criticisms and reinterpretations of western academic Buddhists. (edited after discussion with @Ms Sarah Welch: below. Robert Walker (talk) 14:35, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

How the reliable sources guidelines for religion relate to the POV tags dispute

@Robert McClenon: summarized my reasons well in his recent post to the DRN:

"As noted, Christianity is presented primarily as it is seen by Christians. Jewish, Muslim, secular humanist, and Buddhist views of Christianity are discussed, but are not the primary way that Christianity is presented. Buddhism should be presented primarily in terms of what Buddhist scholars interpret as the teachings of Gautama Buddha, not what non-Buddhist Western scholars say about the teachings of the Buddha."

It is my understanding from the reliable sources guidelines that this is how WP:RS should be interpreted in this topic area. That it should be represented primarily in terms of what Buddhist scholars interpret as the teachings of Gautama Buddha, not what non Buddhist Western scholars say about the teachings of the Buddha. You can see @Joshua Jonathan:'s view on the matter from his comment here:

"The Four Noble Truths article already contains the line "While the Theravada-tradition holds the sutras to be the complete and accurate records of the teachings and sayings of the Buddha". This line was added by me, without a source; it can be referenced with and expanded on with your authors (though I would prefer a scholarly source, but alas; Prayudh Payutto seems to be as orthodox and indigenous as can be).

Prayudh Payutto is regarded as one of the most pre-eminent Buddhist scholars in Thailand with many honours. Buddhism has a long history of scholarship dating back to before we had universities in Europe. When @Joshua Jonathan: says he is not a scholar, he just means, he hasn't got a PhD etc from a Western university. He is of the view that Bhikkhu scholars - i.e. scholar monks, and those who have been trained as scholars in this tradition in other countries, for instance in the Tibetan, Sri Lankan or Thailand traditions of Buddhist scholarship, are not reliable secondary sources in this topic area. He says that their work can be used only as interpreted by "non indigenous" western scholars. @Joshua Jonathan:has made similar comments in the past numerous times. If I can summarize his views, if I understand them right, he claims that the article is NPOV because the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism has been demonstrated to be biased or mistaken by western academic Buddhist scholars, and this has to be explained in the article. @Ms Sarah Welch: is of a similar view.

@Dorje108: puts it like this:

"I think the mistake that both JJ and Sarah are making is that they continually insist "assert" that Rahula and other Buddhist scholars (or scholars who happen to be Buddhists) are “biased”, but that Western academic (who are not Buddhists) are “unbiased.” Therefore, by this logic, the Dalai Lama (for example) as a source should be regarded carefully (as biased), but a Western scholar is not biased. Therefore a presentation or POV by a Western scholar should be given more weight. What I think RW is suggesting (and I agree with this suggestion) is that where there are different points of view in presentation of a topic (whether among different Western academics, or between Western academics and Buddhist scholars), that both POVs should be presented. What I encountered repeatedly in my discussions with JJ (from years ago) and what I have observed in recent discussion, is that when encountered with different POVs, both Sarah and JJ insist that one POV is valid (not biased), and the other POV is not valid (biased). Another problem I observed was that JJ seemed to be trying to write a definitive article on the Four Noble Truths. In other words, he seems to be taking on the role of an academic himself, in deciding what is correct and what is not correct interpretation of Buddhist teachings. Apologies for the length of this post. I am sure everyone involved has the best intentions, and we all have our own personal biases. Also, this is a vast topic, so it is not easy to summarize. But in brief I agree with RW’s point that the current article is not written from a neutral POV (for reasons stated above). I hope this helps"

See Dorje108's comment and discussion

I should explain here, that the Dalai Lama, many westerners don't realize, is qualified academically with the highest qualification available in Tibetan scholarship, the Geshe Lharampa degree which requires 15 years study so is more demanding than a Western PhD. Few westerners have passed this qualification. He also, unusually, is thoroughly versed in all four of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism, and is the author of numerous books on Buddhism. So he is a WP:RS here because of his academic status, as a Buddhist scholar, not because he is a Dalai Lama. Previous Dalai Lamas have sometimes not been academic at all, but the present day one is unusually academically gifted and was recognized as such by Tibetan Buddhist scholars from a young age.

This is a debate that's been going on in the article talk pages since 2014 when @Joshua Jonathan: did non consensus major rewrites of the articles against the objections of other editors of the articles. He did these rewrites to present the topic from the SUBPOV of academic Buddhism. The previous versions were in a stable state and represented the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism. @Joshua Jonathan: and others keep previously active editors and new sutra tradition editors out of this topic area by reverting their edits whenever they attempt to insert material on their SUBPOV into the articles. He does this on the basis that (in his view) the sources they wish to use are not secondary WP:RS. See DRN Evidence.

Robert Walker (talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Sutra tradition Buddhism as a major world faith with hundreds of millions of followers

Sutra tradition Buddhists number in hundreds of millions. These countries all have a majority of Buddhists of these faiths, either Theravada or Mahayana or Vajrayana but all rely on the same core sutras of the Pali Canon which is around the size of an encyclopedia.

• Thailand 93.2%
• Sri Lanka 70.2%
• Bhutan 74.7%
• Tibet (now part of China)
• Cambodia 96.9%
• Japan 67%

(from Buddhism by country)

So, sutra tradition Buddhism in its various manifestations is a major world faith according to the guidelines on religous sources. It's hard to get a figure for the numbers who have the views of western academic Buddhists but they surely can't be in their millions. So why should the articles on Buddhism in wikipedia mainly represent the views of the western academic Buddhists as their POV and only touch on the views of sutra tradition Buddhists in a few sentences here and there, mainly to criticize them? Robert Walker (talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Suggestion of two SUBPOVs - but we have no consensus on this - so wish to add POV tags

My suggestion is for the main articles to represent the views of sutra tradition Buddhists. I agree that the views of academic western Buddhists are detailed and complex enough to require entire articles, but if this is the case, as I believe @Joshua Jonathan: has demonstrated with his rewrites of these articles - I think the readers will be better served by separating these out into separate articles for western academic WP:SUBPOVs, not to try to merge them into one. Indeed I think this would lead to greater clarity about the views of western academics as well as about the views of sutra tradition Buddhists.

Incidentally, for clarity, by the "western academic SUBPOV" I mean the POV of many western academics according to which when Buddha became enlightened as a young man, what happened is that he had an understanding that he would be free of suffering when he died by not taking rebirth again, a view that they elaborate in much intricate detail, and based on questioning the authenticity of the Pali Canon and attempting to unearth the original teachings of the Buddha. There are many variations on this idea explained in the current articles. @Joshua Jonathan: summarizes the view of one of the authors with this POV, at the end of his "Therevadha" section as

"According to Ambedkar, total cessation of suffering is an illusion; yet, the Buddhist Middle Path aims at the reduction of suffering and the maximalisation of happiness, balancing both sorrow and happiness"

By the sutra tradition SUBPOV I mean the view according to which Buddha when he became enlightened realized cessation not just of suffering but all forms of unsatisfactoriness already right there on the spot. Though he became old, got sick, and died, none of these were "dukkha" or unsatisfactory for him. Those who hold this view consider the sutras to be the authentic teachings of the Buddha and don't think there is any need to try to work out what Buddha originally taught or thought on matters such as the Four Noble Truths, Anatta etc as we already know this from the sutras. Many Buddhists have this view not just through faith but also through reasoning based on internal and external evidence, as explained here: Pali Canon#Authorship according to Theravadins. This view is shared by some Western scholars, who would then fall into the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism on this matter. Walpola Rahula was a famous example of an author trained in both western scholarship (PhD from a western university and professor at a western university for many years) and Buddhist tradition scholarship who held the views of the sutra tradition Buddhists.

For instance Walpola Rahula writes (in his famous book "What the Buddha Taught" on the essential teachings of Therevadhan Buddhism):

"In almost all religions the summum bonum can be attained only after death. But Nirvana can be realized in this very life; it is not necessary to wait till you die to 'attain' it."

Failing agreement to have separate articles, which we don't have currently, I wish to add POV tags to all four articles and since sutra tradition Buddhists will not be able to edit the articles to represent their views, and have not been able to do so since 2014, then the next step seems to be to invite discussion about whether the articles are POV as suggested in WP:NPOVD. So, it seems our next stop is the NPOV noticeboard, if it is agreed that Prayudh Payutto, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalia Lama etc are indeed WP:RS for the SUBPOV of sutra tradition Buddhism.

Both SUBPOVs agree that when Buddha became enlightened he said that this is his last rebirth. They disagree however on whether he realized cessation of dukkha as a young man of 30, or whether he only had an end to dukkha when he entered paranirvana when he died. This difference in SUBPOV has many ramifications and is one of many differences in view that they have.

Robert Walker (talk) 07:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

My essay on reliable sources in Buddhism for comment

I've summarized the situation for reliable sources in sutra Buddhism in my essay here: Essay on Reliable Sources in Buddhism and a Proposal. I invite comments on this essay, and for confirmation that I have understood the guidelines on WP:RS properly or indeed, of course correction, if @Joshua Jonathan: is the one who has a correct understanding of the guidelines here. I also welcome any suggestions about where to take this next, is the NPOVN the natural next place to go, or are there other alternatives? Robert Walker (talk) 07:32, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Response by JJ

I don't object to using Buddhist sources; Prayudh Payutto, for example, is fine; he seems to be quite representative of a truly orthodox line of thought in Theravada, so, that's good (and I agreed with using him). Note that there are good Buddhist sources, and also academic scholarly sources by Buddhists; note also that the articles in questions refer to both Buddhist and academic scholarly sources.

What I object to is basing an article solely on a personal (mis)understanding of Buddhism, based on a selective range of popular sources aimed at a large, uninformed audience; writing articles that contain large amounts of WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS, and misrepresent even those those pop-sources; and violating WP:NPOV, by relying solely on those pop-sources. Robert's prefered "previous versions" were not in a stable state, nor did they represent the point of view of "sutra tradition Buddhism" (what does that neologism refer to?) in an adequate way.

Regarding Robert's explanation (thanks, Robert) "By the sutra tradition SUBPOV I mean the view according to which Buddha when he became enlightened realized cessation not just of suffering but all forms of unsatisfactoriness already right there on the spot.", let me quote from that DRN:

"Robert thinks that the release of dukkha is the sole goal of the Buddhist path, and that the end of rebirth is not a/the goal. He thinks that "ending rebirth" is a western scholarly re-interpretation, despite more than a dozen references + quotes (section "ending rebirth, note "Moksha", note "samudaya", note "Samsara", note "Nirodha"), from both scholarly sources and Buddhist sources, which say that the Buddhist "goal" implies both. To compare:

• Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta : "But as soon as this knowledge & vision concerning these four noble truths was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'"
• Bhikkhu Bodhi (2011), The Noble Eightfold Path: Way to the End of Suffering, p.10: " elimination of craving culminates not only in the extinction of sorrow, anguish and distress, but in the unconditioned freedom of nibbana, which is won with the ending of reapeated rebirth."
• Keown (2009), Buddhism, p.65: "The ultimate goal of Buddhism is to put an end to suffering and rebirth."

Robert is persistent on this personal pov of him; his proposal for a pov-fork is to split off all the scholarly statements and info into a separate article, and revert the main article back to his preferred version. That's not an option."

To add: this is what the Four Noble Truths article says:

• "But there is a way to end this cycle and reach real happiness, namely by letting go of this craving and attaining nirvana, whereafter rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again."
• "The truth of nirodha, the cessation of dukkha, is the truth that dukkha ceases, or can be confined, when craving and clinging cease or are confined, and nirvana is attained. Nirvana refers to the moment of attainment itself, and the resulting peace of mind and happiness (khlesa-nirvana), but also to the final dissolution of the five skandhas at the time of death (skandha-nirvana or parinirvana); in the Theravada-tradition, it also refers to a transcendental reality which is "known at the moment of awakening." According to Gethin, "modern Buddhist usage tends to restrict 'nirvāṇa' to the awakening experience and reserve 'parinirvāṇa' for the death experience. When nirvana is attained, no more karma is being produced, and rebirth and dissatisfaction will no longer arise again. Cessation is nirvana, "blowing out," and peace of mind. Joseph Goldstein explains:

Ajahn Buddhadasa, a well-known Thai master of the last century, said that when village people in India were cooking rice and waiting for it to cool, they might remark, "Wait a little for the rice to become nibbana". So here, nibbana means the cool state of mind, free from the fires of the defilements. As Ajahn Buddhadasa remarked, "The cooler the mind, the more Nibbana in that moment". We can notice for ourselves relative states of coolness in our own minds as we go through the day."

• "Within the Theravada-tradition, three different stances on nirvana and the question what happens with the Arhat after death can be found. Nirvana refers to the cessation of the defilements and the resulting peace of mind and happiness (khlesa-nirvana); to the final dissolution of the five skandhas at the time of death (skandha-nirvana or parinirvana); and to a transcendental reality which is "known at the moment of awakening." According to Gethin, "modern Buddhist usage tends to restrict 'nirvāṇa' to the awakening experience and reserve 'parinirvāṇa' for the death experience. According to Geisler and Amano, in the "minimal Theravada interpretation", nirvana is a psychological state, which ends with the dissolution of the body and the total extinction of existence. According to Geisler and Amano, the "orthodox Theravada interpretation" is that nirvana is a transcendent reality, with which the self unites. According to Bronkhorst, while "Buddhism preached liberation in this life, i.e. before death," there was also a tendency in Buddhism to think of liberation happening after death. According to Bronkhorst, this

...becomes visible in those canonical passages which distinguish between Nirvana - qualified in Sanskrit and pali as 'without a remainder of upadhi/upadi (anupadhisesa/anupadisesa) - and the 'highest and complete enlightenment'(anuttara samyaksambodhi/sammasambodhi). The former occurs at death, the later in life.

According to Walpola Rahula, Buddhism "shows you the way to perfect freedom, peace, tranquility and happiness," which is nirvana. According to Walpola Rahula, the cessation of dukkha is nirvana, the summum bonum of Buddhism, and is attained in this life, not when one dies. According to Walpola Rahula, nirvana is "Absolute Truth," which simply is, while Jayatilleke also speaks of "the attainment of an ultimate reality." According to Bhikkhu Bodhi, the "elimination of craving culminates not only in the extinction of sorrow, anguish and distress, but in the unconditioned freedom of nibbana, which is won with the ending of reapeated rebirth.""

So, the article uses both Buddhist and academic sources; it represents Robert's supposed "sutra tradition point of view"; in addition, it makes clear that nirvana has multiple meanings in Buddhism, not just what Robert thinks is "sutra tradition"; and it makes clear that nirvana as cessation and peace is reached here in this life, and that it implies that there will be no more rebirth. That's not an academic reintepretation, that's what Buddhism says. See also what Bhikkhu Bodhi on rebirth and Thanissaro Bhikkhu on rebirth, real Buddhist bhikkhus, quotes in the Wiki-article, have to say about the western idea that rebirth is not part of the Buddhist package.

References

1. Bhikkhu Bodhi 2011, p. 10. sfn error: no target: CITEREFBhikkhu_Bodhi2011 (help)

NB: still walls of text...

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:07, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

In that section, I quoted from your own comment in the DRN there "though I would prefer a scholarly source, but alas; Prayudh Payutto seems to be as orthodox and indigenous as can be" as your explanation of why you couldn't find a cite for Therevadhan views for the sentence "While the Theravada-tradition holds the sutras to be the complete and accurate records of the teachings and sayings of the Buddha" . You also stated your views in this discussion with ScientificQuest Example of Scientific Quest's attempt at editing Anatta as evidence of clash of SUBPOVs with differing WP:RS where you respond to him: ""...If you think that "the words of the reputed scholar monk override those of the academic", then don't edit Misplaced Pages, but do start your own blog"", the discussion is here. You and @Ms Sarah Welch: have presented this as your reason for reverting edits or not including content on numerous occasions. Here is @Ms Sarah Welch:'s statement on why we shouldn't use Walpola Rahula's famous book in English for the general public on Therevadhan Buddhism

"The best we can do is what many editors and admins have been suggesting to you... rely on multiple WP:RS by well respected, highly cited scholars who are one or two steps away from the numerous translations and interpretations of Suttas out there"

and see @Dorje108:'s comment on this in the DRN:.

You and her say this whenever we discuss reliable sources for the articles. Robert Walker (talk) 08:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

On rebirth I don't want to get overly technical here, and embark once more on a discussion we have played through many times - but have added a brief statement to that section explaining that both SUBPOVs agree that Buddha when he became enlightened said that it was his last rebirth. Robert Walker (talk) 08:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

References

Robert, I didn't say I couldn't find a n academic source; I just didn't add one yet. Instead, I added your sources diff. So, what's your point, when I myself add your preferred sources? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:55, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

You said clearly "though I would prefer a scholarly source, but alas; Prayudh Payutto seems to be as orthodox and indigenous as can be"'. Now you have added him as a source, but you said clearly that he was not a WP:RS before. Have you changed your views? Do you now regard Prayudh Payutto, the Dalai Lama, Bhikkhu Bodhi etc as reliable sources in their own right, and not only as interpreted by Western scholars? If that is your view then you will have to agree that the articles mentioned are all WP:POV as most of the content of those four articles, in terms of word count, describes the views of western academics and their comments on the WP:RS of Buddhist scholarship. Your argument for it being WP:NPOV all along has been on the basis that these sources are not WP:RS as secondary sources and so, whenever mentioned, have to be used alongside western "secondary" comments on their views. Robert Walker (talk) 09:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Reply by Ms Sarah Welch

The OP's request to tag article(s), and reasons given are inappropriate for RSN. This discussion board is useful when editor(s) in dispute have a "specific source, cite details such as page number(s), article and disputed content", and want to know if the source is reliable for statement X in it? I suggest this case be closed without comment or prejudice.

If the case is accepted, I hope the RSN volunteers will identify which specific source they are talking about. FWIW, the mentioned articles do include Theravada Buddhist scholars (who Robert Walker calls sutra-tradition). @Robert McClenon: I sense Robert Walker or I misunderstood you. In my reading, you are not saying that Four Noble Truths and other Buddhism articles do not include Theravada Buddhist POV and scholarship? You were just saying that the Buddhism articles should be presented from practicing Buddhists POV (Theravada, Mahayana, etc) found in reliable sources. Again fwiw, the articles do!, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: First, I'm posting here because I was requested to take it here by @Winged Blades of Godric: who said

"There seems to be be little progress towards a common consensus inspite of the extensive discussions. Participants are requested to take this for formal mediation or to WP:RSN."

I will edit my post here to make that clear. Formal mediation doesn't seem likely to solve it, so here is the next step. I'm saying, that Walpola Rahula, Bhikkhu Bodhi, the Dalai Lama (who is a scholar as well as the Dalai Lama with the highest academic qualifications available in Tibetan Buddhism and many books to his name), Bikkhu Sujato, Ringu Tulku, Thích Nhất Hạnh, Ajahn Sumedho, Geshe Tashi Tsering, Chogyam Trungpa, Pema Chodron etc would all count as recognized and well-regarded experts in Buddhism. You and @Joshua Jonathan: often revert edits on the basis that they are only cited to Buddhist scholars such as these, and are not backed up by Western academic sources. which you say are required as "secondary" because they are "two steps away". Which then leads to editors trying to find Western academics who say the same things as these WP:RS, at which point they usually give up. I'm asking for clarification of this. If you and @Joshua Jonathan: have changed your mind on this policy, please post to the talk pages of these four articles making it clear to the editors whose edits you have reverted that you now agree that these can be used as WP:RS on their own without need for them to find a western academic who says the same thing as the Bikkhu scholars. Also if you have changed your views on this, the articles are clearly POV because though they do cite sutra tradition Buddhists, the bulk of the actual content of the articles, all except a few sentences here and there, present the views of Western academics, based on your previous policy that sutra tradition Buddhist views can only be included if also explained by Western academics and commented on by them. So, we need this clarified first, which I think is why @Winged Blades of Godric: suggested this as our next stop rather than the NPOVN. Sutra tradition Buddhism covers Theravada, Zen Buddhism, Mahayana, Vajrayana because they all accept slight variations on the core sutras of the Pali Canon as the words of the Buddha along with some extra texts of their own. Robert Walker (talk) 14:17, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

• @Robertinventor: Please do not "edit your post here to make that clear". Leave your posts unchanged, per WP:TALK. You can post more addendums and clarifications. This is necessary to let others appreciate the context of JJ, my or other editor's replies after reading your text. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:28, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

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