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Does it ever occur to you that there is a growing trend of people who make you out to be a Facist, racist, Ignorant, Fanatical, Vandal, Brahmin, Hater? So far, I am the second one who has classified you as a Facist. I was going to make number two in regarding you as a Brahmin. But I see someone else has accused you of that too. How did I know you were a Brahmin? I wonder... hmmm... I so happen to have a couple of Brahmin friends, unlike yourself. You give Brahmins a bad name. It's a shame that a majority of Brahmins so happen too... Why do you praise Sanskrit so much when it is not even your mother tongue? I understand that everyone has a right to their opinions... Here is mine, stop calling yourself a Tamil!
Does it ever occur to you that there is a growing trend of people who make you out to be a Facist, racist, Ignorant, Fanatical, Vandal, Brahmin, Hater? So far, I am the second one who has classified you as a Facist. I was going to make number two in regarding you as a Brahmin. But I see someone else has accused you of that too. How did I know you were a Brahmin? I wonder... hmmm... I so happen to have a couple of Brahmin friends, unlike yourself. You give Brahmins a bad name. It's a shame that a majority of Brahmins so happen too... Why do you praise Sanskrit so much when it is not even your mother tongue? I understand that everyone has a right to their opinions... Here is mine, stop calling yourself a Tamil!
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Please do not accuse others of racism. That is a very strong personal attack. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 23:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
You have been blocked for 6 hours for continually posting irrelevant personal content about others on wikipedia to stir discord.Blnguyen | BLabberiNg03:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I was just taking what was in Archive 8 and reposting back on. I would not post an attack, but I have to answer Kenneth Tennyson's question. I promise not to repost that attack from Archive 8. Regards.Indrancroos08:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Freedom skies
My problem with Freedom skies is his incivility, his transparent POV, his self-serving disregard for official Misplaced Pages standards on credible sources and, most of all, the way he accuses others of practices that he himself engages in.
You were asked to stop attacking other editors and yet you persist in re-posting deleted rants over and over. It appears that you've also tried to track WP editors to other websites to further malign their character. This behavior is completely unacceptable and has resulted in a 48 hour block. Please stop immediately and review our policy on personal attacks. If you continue to attack other editors in this manner, you may be subject to quickly escalating blocks. Shell12:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Don't anger admins
They have the power to throw you out on a whim. It is the unfortunate reality on wikipedia. Regardless of your views, if admins side with a particular user who opposes you then it's over, so you might as well back out gracefully so that you can continue editing more articles. I'd like to see you stay and contribute more to wikipedia, so please do.Hkelkar19:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Hope to see you soon
Thanks for backing me up, I can take care of Kenny and JFD on my own though, they'll have a hard time backing their arguments against the sheer amount of information I can provide substantiating my point of view as widespread. I really appreciated what you did on the talk page and everything, hope to see you soon, meanwhile relax and don't take the blocking too seriously.
Freedom skies20:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I guess JFD is trying to discourage you to get in touch with me via e-mail, since he fears some kind of academical threat. Just to clear some things up, I was not the guy who went "India did not exist until 1947". I would never post something as blunt, offensive, and ignorant as that. However, yes, I have changed a few things around as a correction. It is not to offend anyone, but like Kenneth Tennyson and his devoted sidekick JFD (the Green Hornet and Kato), I too have some historical points of views. I understand that you have been accused of being a pan-Indian nationalist, while I have been accused of being a Tamil nationalist. As far as Indian martial arts are concerned, martial arts from both your culture and mine are in the Indian martial arts section. Therefore, it effects both of us.
It seems like through this wiki-conflict, it has thrown us together into one pot. If I am here to put you or your culture down, or to discredit India, why in the first place would I have stuck up for you. I had not intentions in mind when I did that. It just ticked me off when Kenneth sent you that messed up message. Just like, for example, a few years ago, when a Punjabi store owner was beaten up in a hate crime. I was outraged...
I see you have a vast knowledge in the fighting styles of Northern Inda, while I have the same for Southern India. Likewise, you are very knowledgeable about ancient Bharat and its 16 Mahajanapada Republics, while I have the same for ancient Tamilakkam. Since this page on Indian Martial Arts effects us both, maybe together we can combine both our knowledge to present a remarkable page. Yes, I do understand our passions which may sometimes clash. However, if we could set aside some of that and work together in a "give-take" mentality we can make things work.
At the same time, we will present our contributions which may be opposite of what JFD-Kenny think, but at the same time their views shall be presented as well to give a fair and balanced view on Indian Martial Arts.
Do you agree with me on this? If so, it would be nice if we could communicate via e-mail. I have more ideas to share with you. I believe we can make this work. As far as JFD is concerned, I do not know what his intentions are. Maybe he feels a little threatened of the possiblity of you and me teaming up on this project? or maybe I am wrong... Indrancroos20:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Freedom skies seems perfectly capable of setting up an e-mail account exclusively for communication with yourself and other Wikipedians entirely separate from those he may use for other personal and professional communications.
I understand that you have been accused of being a pan-Indian nationalist, while I have been accused of being a Tamil nationalist. As far as Indian martial arts are concerned, martial arts from both your culture and mine are in the Indian martial arts section. Therefore, it effects both of us.
I see you have a vast knowledge in the fighting styles of Northern Inda, while I have the same for Southern India.
Which is why your knowledgability drops off precipitously once you start opining about the martial arts of China, Japan, Korea, and Southeast Asia.
At the same time, we will present our contributions which may be opposite of what JFD-Kenny think, but at the same time their views shall be presented as well to give a fair and balanced view on Indian Martial Arts.
Thank you, Indrancroos. You can tell which contributions on the Kalarippayattu and Pehlwani entries are mine because they're the ones that cite books. By academics. Published by scholarly presses.
As far as JFD is concerned, I do not know what his intentions are. Maybe he feels a little threatened of the possiblity of you and me teaming up on this project?
If you can show me a "Phd." scholar from India who discredits the Bodhidarma theory, then I will believe everything you say, and even stop posting or editing on wikipedia. Is that is deal?
Official Misplaced Pages standards don't judge the credibility of a source by his or her race.
Well, the three of us (me, Kenny and JFD) have almost reached an agreement that should settle the IMA article for now, the final source code for "IMA under colonial rule" should be ready as soon as JFD finds time, and I agree with it's basic outline, other than that the only remaining thing is the agreement on guidelines for future editing.
After that, I'm taking a much deserved long wikibreak. So, most of the work's already done, and after all this is over, the last thing I would want to talk about is wikipedia.
I'll be off as soon as the outline and the agreements are done, so with the argument being in it's final stages, I guess there is no use for more communication on it right now.
If you want in on the editing agreement, why don't you do something more constructive than throwing around cheap accusations of racism such as raising specific points and bringing in credible sources? JFD00:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Reply to Wait a Second
Indran, I know that you think you have material to contribute to this article but so do all of the other three editors, if everyone else added their conflicting point of views right now, the article's quality is likely to degrade substantially. Edit wars at this final stage will lead to the administrators locking down the article in an awkward state and sending warning to the editors to think about what they did, which is in nobody's favour and is kinda humiliating as well.
The arguments are over, the final agreement has been almost reached and there's pretty much nothing left to do here. It's a fact, try living with it. Freedom skies02:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
It is actually Marma (pertaining to nerves) in the Kerala language, and Varma (pertaining to nerves) in the Tamil language. Also, varma ati is actually Marma Adi, the art of pressure point attacks from Kerala. The Tamil pressure point fighting and healing system is called Varma Kalai. The Tamil foot and hand combat is called Kuttu Varisai. Varma Kalai can also be a healing art called Varma or Varma Cuttiram.
Sources:
1. Marma adi : the deadly art and science of hitting the vital marmas / Sanjay V. Javalkar
Belgaum, India : Warrior Publications, 1996
2. Varma cūttiram, a Tamil text on martial art : from palm-leaf manuscript / translation, M. Radhika ; editor, P. Subramaniam ; general editors, Shu Hikosaka, Norinaga Shimizu, G. John Samuel.
Madras : Institute of Asian Studies, 1994
Asoka's Empire did not include Kerala, Tamilnadu, and Sri Lanka. Did you know that you have just CONTRADICTED yourself? Here is the contradiction in your arguement:
(Contradiction)
1. it was stated that "Restoring ancient India, a country which included the ancient south under Ashoka the great".
2. a link was added to Ashoka in the sentence.
3. on the page of Ashoka, it showed the map of his empire which did not inlcude Southern India
(primarily Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka).
Here are some links to other wikipedia and websites on Asoka. Please take a look at the maps closely.
(Web Sites)
1. Ashoka
2. Maurya Empire
3. The Mauryan Empire ]
4. Span of the Mauryan Empire ]
5. Map of Mauryan Empire ]
Still not satisfied? Please let me recommend you to take a look at these books in your University and take a look at the maps, and perhaps read the books itself. Here is a list of them which will prove you wrong.
(Books)
1. Mookerji, Radhakumud (1967). Asoka. Delhi: Oxford University Press.
2. Gokhale, Balkrishna Govind (1966). Asoka Maurya. New York: Twayne Publishers.
3. Smith, Vincent Arthur (1964). Asoka, the Buddhist emperor of India. Delhi: S. Chand.
4. Thapar, Romila Aśoka and the decline of the Mauryas (1997): with a new afterword, bibliography, and index.
Delhi ; New York : Oxford University Press.
5. Nilakanta Sastri, K. A. (1967). Age of the Nandas and Mauryas. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass.
By the way these were books written by both Northern and Southern Indians and one European. This is about as fair and balanced it is going to get. As quoted on the Indian martial arts page, I shall use this to describe the sources I have used above as "diverse in nature and have origins of different times from various different ethnic groups", which all prove one point Asoka's Empire did not include Tamil Nadu, Kerala, and Sri Lanka. I would dare say the reason for this was because of the Dravidian martial arts and fighting tactics, including a strong infantry, cavalry, and a poweful Navy.
You need to get your facts straight if you are going to try to get your point across.
I had the same argument with Freedom skies ages ago.
Freedom skies: Akhanda Bharatam (literally "undivided India") is the historic homeland of the Hindus, before Islamic conquest and colonial partition, which resulted in the subsequent conversion of a significant number to Islam and Christianity. It includes all of present day Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Nepal, Myanmar, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and some areas of Tibet.
You are absolutely right. The Ramayan and the Mahabharat have not been revised, nor do they mention of any kingdoms which are in Tamil Nadu, or Kerala. As a matter of fact in Mahabharata it mentions of the 16 Mahajanapadas. The southern most was in the Maharashtran state and parts of Central India called Assaka. The Ramayana mentions of how Hanuman crossed over to Lanka, true in the mythological story. Homer's Iliad speaks of the Trojan war between the Athenians and the Trojans. Does that mean that Troy was part of Athens at the time? Just because Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Java and Bali Indonesia dance the Ramayana or have arts depicting the Ramayana, doesn't mean they are part of India. Just because Islam is practices all over the Middle East, does not mean they are one country either... Stop living in a fantasy... Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Tripura, Mizoram, Pondichery, Assam, and Nagaland became part of India through the British. When the British left, they gave the princely states a choice to be part of India or not. Those who chose not to be part of India, were over run by the Indian army and taken over. A so called Indian Super Power, which is acutually a World Super Market for cheap labor... Wake up and smell the coffee...Indrancroos01:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Here are some more facts for you:
1. Mizo Hills were formally declared as part of the British-India by a proclamation in 1895.]
2. The State of Nagaland was formally inaugurated on December 1st, 1963, as the 16th State of the Indian Union.]
3. The 'Tripura' is a small state within the union of India. It was an independent country till the merger with independent India
in 1949 A.D.]
4. Manipur was not a Part of India. It was forcibly annexed by India. In 21 September 1949 the king of Manipur was forced to sign
the Marger Agreement.]
5. Pondicherry becomes part of India in 1963. ]
These are not the only states which did not become part of India until the arrival of the British or after the British left.
If India was actaully one Empire during ancient times, how come there are over 23 distinct languages, and thousands of dialects? Why are there three major families of ethinic groups Dravidians (of African/ Australian roots), Indo-Aryans (of Persian roots - and of course where the name India came from), and the Mon-Kmher (of Burmese/ Cambodian roots)?] Indrancroos02:15, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Really? Lanka was part of Ram's zone of hegemony after the war with Ravan, Ram already had all of mainland India under his dominion. Then under Ashoka Maurya's reign, India was united again. There is but one race in India. The Aryans. The whole concept of a Dravidian race was invented by the british to help Christian missionaries. The only reason Asssamese look like Chinese is because they have more Mongoloid blood in them than Aryan.BakamanBakatalk02:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
There is but one race in India. The Aryans. The whole concept of a Dravidian race was invented by the british to help
Christian missionaries. The only reason Asssamese look like Chinese is because they have more Mongoloid blood in them than Aryan.
To Bakasupran: You are sounding like a Fascist Nazi now. As far as religion is concerned, isn't it true that Northern India got invaded left and right by the Greeks, Moghuls, British and lost their true heritage while we have retained ours? Our temples are still standing throughout Southern India. How about in Northern India? Why are there so many Muslim mosques in Northern India if it is supposed to be a Hindu state? Are you saying that the Dravidians never existed? Exlain to me the African and Aboriginal features of the Dravidians.] Also, please explain to me why the Northern Indian scripts use the Devanagiri script vs. the Dravidians using the curvey scripts.] Can you also explain to me why their is a sharp difference between the Indo-Aryan languages of Northern India vs. the Dravidian languages of Southern India?] Lastly, since some of you "power tripped" guys are fond of taking our history and claiming it as yours, can you explain to me why some of the Southeast Asian languages have certain Dravidian words?] Here's a good one, can you tell me why Southeast Asian scripts resemble that of the Dravidian scripts instead of Sanskrit or other North Indian scripts?]
Please educate me since I am so ignorant of the history and culture of the Indian sub-continent. I am sorry that I am not as good as you to back up what I say...
Hi, I noticed your conversation about Tamil Nadu, and it's becoming unified with the rest of India under British rule. I don't know whether you would say that Tamil Nadu was "unified" with the rest of India under the Slave dynasty Malik Kafur, but it is certainly true that the Tamils suffered military defeat under that dynasty, were looted, brutally oppressed etc. How would you describe that historical period? Sincerely, --BostonMA20:30, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
(Wrongly assumed that since Malik Kafur was a slave that he was part of what was called the slave dynasty. Apparently not, though I don't understand the reason why. --BostonMA20:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
NPA
Regarding this comment, Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. --Ragib02:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
In other words, even if you disagree with other people, do NOT call them Fascist Nazi. Comment only on content, arguments, rather than the persons. Respect other users. Thank you. --Ragib02:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not mean to write like this. It is shocking to hear that there are some people who actually would say things like a certain ethnic group does not exist. I find that strongly offensive, and racist. And it equates to calling an African American the "N" word, and certain Asians "oriental". Please warn Bakasuprman to refrain from posting such offensive racist comments. I do not mind an educated debate on civilizations, but to actually say that the ethnic Dravidians did not exist is equivallent to saying that we are better off dead. I feel threatened and offended.
Debates, arguments are always fine, provided that they keep within the bounds of civility. I am not involved in any of the debates you are having with Baka in this issue. However, I only asked you not to attack anyone personally. Analyzing, replying to arguments, comments, are just fine. I.e. "Don't shoot the messenger". --Ragib03:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate you for posting me on this matter. I will definitely keep what you said in mind about what to post and what not to post. Also, could you please give the same warning to Bakasuprman. I feel threatened by his comment that we (Dravidians) did not exist. Regards.
Edits like this are not a good idea. Imagine Americans spending all day changing everything to their spellings, and then as the Yanks go to bed the Brits start changing them all back. As a general rule, leave them like you find them, as long as they're consistent within an article. Fan-196706:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Hiya, whaddidya say ? Persian roots ? Are you crazy ? The whole Aryan race was an Indo-European tribe. It was formed in the Arctic. Read Lokmanya Tilak's The Arctic Home in the Veda and you'll know. After some catastrophic climactic changes however, the Indo-Europeans had to migrate to distant lands. Some of them came to India via Central Asia, some went to Europe and some went to Persia. However the Indo-European religion was established all over the Eurasia. That's why you find corresponding aspects and similarities between Ancient Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Nordic religions with Vedic religion. This Arya Vaidik Dharma and the local Dravidian religion syncretised into modern Hinduism. The people of the East (call them Mongoloids) were barbarians (Chengiz Khan) with tribal religion. These people migrated to China/Japan etc. and East India. In East India they intermarried with Aryans and then spread through rest of South East Asia. That's why they are called Malay race and Indochin race, not Mongoloids. Chinese and Japanese are total mongoloids. The only country in South East Asia which is mongoloid is today's Vietnam. The Champa Empire was the furthest east Hindu Empire that you'd find. And slowly after the second and third Abrahamic religion came that the Indo-European Confederacy fell, with Europe becoming Christian, Middle East becomin Moslem and South East Asia following suit. But I admit the Dravidian race was different. But after that intermarriages have changed the thing. Nowadays you have Dravidians fairer than Aryans. However I must say that India is not one.It is a nation of nations.
"Fascist Nazi" - Congrats to making yourself look like a Troll
Does it ever occur to you that there is a growing trend of people who make you out to be a Facist, racist, Ignorant, Fanatical, Vandal, Brahmin, Hater? So far, I am the second one who has classified you as a Facist. I was going to make number two in regarding you as a Brahmin. But I see someone else has accused you of that too. How did I know you were a Brahmin? I wonder... hmmm... I so happen to have a couple of Brahmin friends, unlike yourself. You give Brahmins a bad name. It's a shame that a majority of Brahmins so happen too... Why do you praise Sanskrit so much when it is not even your mother tongue? I understand that everyone has a right to their opinions... Here is mine, stop calling yourself a Tamil!
Indrancroos05:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
