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Military history: Asian / Japanese / World War II Start‑class

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To-do list for Soviet invasion of Manchuria: edit · history · watch · refresh · Updated 2021-05-26 Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : Japanese sources for defence of islands Expand : the "Campaign" section to include the operations outside Manchuria such as the contemplation to "using the arid wastes of eastern Mongolia as a launching pad" Infobox : add Soviet Fronts' commanders, and Commander of the Soviet Pacific Fleet Wikify : citations and reference sections

I think, a good developing article. --Tomtom 20:59, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Links

I placed links in various other articles to this one, esp Great Patrioic War.--Numerousfalx 21:02, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Port Arthur

...entitled to ... pre-eminent interests over Port Arthur and Dairen, with its strategic rail connections. With the exception of Dairen... the other possessions are still administered by the most powerful of the Soviet Union's successor states, the Russian Federation.

The article Lüshunkou (Port Arthur) seems to imply this is fully owned by China and not Russia. Which version is correct, the above or the Lüshunkou article? --203.52.130.139 03:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I beleive that the Soviets turned over all of their gains to show friendship with the PRC--Gary123 22:50, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Reports of killing of Japanese settlors will be appropriate, afterall what do the Japanese owe to the Russians, yeah like the Red Army knew about the atrocities against the Chinese and acted in vengeance, yeah righto "four legs good, two legs baaaad"

Casualty estimates

What're the sources for the (widely divergent, for the Soviet losses) casualty estimates? Given the decisiveness of the victory, and that nothing in the article alludes to them, the Japanese ones seem very surprising. Alai 06:13, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Check out this link it is a very big article http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp (Deng 23:45, 13 March 2006 (UTC))

About the Opening Paragraph

Did the Soviets agree not to attack for three months after the defeat of Germany, or did they wait three months? Judging on the dates May 8 and August 8 the former seems more likely. Captain Jackson 04:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Neither, they promised (in Yalta I think) to attack within three months.

Allied leaders continued to press Stalin to commit his forces against Japan in order to complete the destruction of the Axis combination

the anticipated campaign involved extensive planning and preparations stretching over a five-month period from April to August 1945

--DelftUser 18:44, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, article is misworded to the effect of stating the exact opposite of what was agreed. The leaders of the three great powers have agreed that in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war against Japan on the side of the Allies on condition that:(Yalta Protocol) ("two or three"? strangely fuzzy wording for a contract) -corrected--84.188.203.180 10:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Read the link I gave a few lines up it is the big mega super ultra big article about the war made by the US army, It is B I G (Deng 19:55, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

Better dead than red

In particular, it is said that the Japanese were eager to surrender to the United States before they were occupied by the Soviet Union.

I have added a "" to this sentence. For all the Japanese knew the Americans had the capacity to drop any number of atomic bombs on the home islands. What would have been left for the Soviets to occupy if the country had been bombed back into the stone age?

Further as they were asked to surrender unconditionally they could not know in advance who would occupy which parts of Japan, and it was not possible for them to include such terms in surrender document. After all the Western Allies gave up large chunks of East Germany to the Soviets (See section "Rolling the Carpet") and the Soviets gave up chunks of Austria to the western Allies before the Japanese surrender, so for all the Japanese Government knew the Allies might have had a similar deal between themselves for the occupation of Japan.

The whole paragraph in the article seems to me very speculative, so it should have citations to page numbers in reliable references. (See WP:V)--Philip Baird Shearer 19:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Read here http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz3/glantz3.asp it is a study by the american military and here is another one they are not the same read them both http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz4/glantz4.asp (Deng 20:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC))

That the Red Army which had fought the German army to a standstill and driven it back to Berlin had learnt a thing or two about how to fight a war is not surprising or in dispute. But I see nothing in these documents which states that In particular, it is said that the Japanese were eager to surrender to the United States before they were occupied by the Soviet Union. Perhaps I missed that paragraph, can you point me towards it in either of these two documents?

To invade the home island Japan would take a massive amphibious operation and it was the Western Allies who had the experience of landing armies by sea onto a hostile coast (Operation Torch, Operation Husky, Operation Baytown, (the smaller) Operation Shingle, Operation Neptune, Operation Dragoon, Operation Iceberg and many smaller amphibious assalts in the Pacific theatre) and the equipment to carry them out. The Soviets did not have the experiance or the equipment. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:02, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Learnt a thing or two? They became the best army on earth. If you want to learn more about the Soviet army during ww2 go here and read what professor Overy has written for the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml. And if you read all 6 pages you will see that they didnt just learn a thing or 2. Also if you look at this campaign the numbers speak for them selves. In 11 days they destroyed the Japanese army in Manchuria which was 1.1 million strong. But perhaps your headline on this topic describes your state of mind. And forbids you to absorb real fact. And only leaves you with the ability to not see anything that speaks positively about the red army fighting ability during ww2. Anyway will find the lines for you but it will take some time, as you know the texts are long. Also you should take note that I am not the creator of this article I just look in time to time on it. Also you are dead wrong about this : " The Soviets did not have the experiance or the equipment." They hade done it many times and atleast twice on the Crimea.(Deng 04:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC))

Understatement is a common English speaking world, to emphases a point. I forget that I am not always addressing someone from the same culture and have to be more literal. Sorry. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

PBS is objecting to "In particular, it is said that the Japanese were eager to surrender to the United States before they were occupied by the Soviet Union." Which is a statement about the Japanese, not the Soviets, so you're not addressing his point. The phrase "eager to surrender" is hardly an accurate description of the state of mind of anyone in Japan. —wwoods 08:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Apparently the Soviets believed—rightly or wrongly—that they did have the experience and equipment they needed for a limited invasion of the Japanese home islands. One reference is David M. Glantz, "The Soviet Invasion of Japan," Quarterly Journal of Military History, vol. 7, no. 3, Spring 1995, pp. 96–97, which discusses new information indicating that Stalin was ready to land troops on Hokkaido two months before the scheduled American landings in Kyushu.

I haven't read that, but Richard Frank cites it in Downfall (p. 323–324):

  One of the many important revelations to emerge after the collapse of the Soviet Union was that Stalin's ambitions in the Far East in 1945 extended from the outset not only to Manchuria and Korea but also to Japan proper. ...

  The Soviet strategy for the campaign also featured a two-pronged thrust to Hokkaido. On August 11, the Red Army had launched an attack from the north via the huge Sakhalin Island. This endeavor made very slow progress against fanatical Japanese resistance. ...

  For the invasion of Hokkaido, the Soviet First Far Eastern Front intended to assault from Sakhalin. The lead division would seize a bridgehead with only one rifle regiment. The rest of that division would follow, and then two more divisions would land. ... Given the vast size of Hokkaido and its mountainous terrain, the Soviets expected that the Japanese could oppose their landing with only one division. ...

  The Soviets overestimated Japanese strength ... oriented toward the American threat from the east, ... The Soviet Navy's amphibious shipping resources were limited but sufficient to transport the three assault divisions in several echelons.

  ... In retrospect, it appears that Japanese resistance on Sakhalin would have precluded readiness before August 24 or 25 in any event, but Truman's firm reply on August 18 was crucial. Moreover, events soon showed that Truman's refusal to permit Soviet advances to Hokkaido saved hundreds of thousands of Japanese from death.

(p. 356–357):

  Soviet intervention would have very likely shaped the prospects for success of any intervention by the Emperor to end the war, but in what direction is not certain. ... Under an optimistic scenario, ... the spectacle of Soviet troops landing on Hokkaido, ... would significantly increase the incentive for capitulation.

  But Soviet intervention might also have triggered a reaction from the Imperial Army that could have foreclosed peace. The bolt from Manchuria galvanized Japan's soldiers to commence plans to declare martial law, terminate the civilian government, and rule from Imperial Headquarters. Had the Imperial Army seized a position of such absolute ascendancy, it is by no means obvious that the war would have terminated in an organized Japanese surrender.

—wwoods 08:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Also this talk has not addressed the point that I made in the first paragraph: I have added a "" to this sentence. For all the Japanese knew the Americans had the capacity to drop any number of atomic bombs on the home islands. What would have been left for the Soviets to occupy if the country had been bombed back into the stone age? --Philip Baird Shearer 09:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

The answer to that can most likely be found if you ask the crator/s of the article and the person who put it there. He/she has perhaps access to material/s that gives a Japanese view on the war and how the leaders of Japan felt at that given time. (Deng 01:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC))

Good idea, the text was merged into this article by User:Charles Matthews as a " further merge from Battle of Manchuria" in "Revision as of 10:02, 28 June 2005". The original text was largly written by User:Algebraist in edits to Battle of Manchuria on 28 June 2005. So I have added a request to Algebraist's talk page, but Algebraist has not edited anything since November last year and does not have an email address set up, lets give it a day or two and see if (s)he replies. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"Some historians, particularly Soviet and Chinese scholars, have viewed the loss of Manchuria—and the implicit threat of a total collapse of Japanese power in China as a whole—as a decisive factor in the Japanese surrender, perhaps more important than the atomic bombings. In particular, it is said that the Japanese were eager to surrender to the United States before they were occupied by the Soviet Union ." this is the part that was removed to whoever wants to look it up I post it here (Deng 03:06, 26 April 2006 (UTC))

As far as I can remember, that was lifted (and perhaps garbled) from Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They have a bunch of references there, if anyone wants to find out wehat historians have actually said rather than my quick rewrite of it. Algebraist 08:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with a statement that 'Some historians, ... have viewed the ... as a decisive factor in the Japanese surrender, perhaps more important than the atomic bombings'. They may even be right. —wwoods 01:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

A WP:V source is needed. Which historians (weasel words)? and if they exist are they considered respectable and notable in the academic community or are they considered to be revisionists? --Philip Baird Shearer 12:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

From here http://en.wikipedia.org/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki if you scroll down to "Opposition to use of atomic bombs" and almost at the very end you will see this. "Other sources have stated that the atomic bombings themselves were not the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, they contend, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories on the mainland in the week following Stalin's August 8 declaration of war that forced the Japanese message of surrender on August 15 1945" but before that you have a diffrent view so it does fit the idea of "some historians" (Deng 22:19, 20 May 2006 (UTC))

So what we have to date are two sources that say that the Soviets would have liked to have made amphibious landings on Hokkaido. Wanting to launch an amphibious seaborne assault and succeeding are two very different things as Gallipoli and Dieppe show. Secondly as the Japanese could not know that the Soviets were planning this assault, no one has yet come up with a source which says that the Soviet attack was the decisive factor in the Japanese surrender. It may well be that the Soviet declaration of war was a decisive factor but again that should be sourced. That the Soviet attack on the 8th and possible invasion followup was a decisive issue seems to me to be very speculative (and of a type which occurs regularly in Misplaced Pages), and as such is an extremely controversial, so it should be linked to the name of a peer reviewed respected historian and not made with a weasel worded phrase such as "Other sources". Because as I said before at the Japanese could not know that the Americans did not have a production line of atomic bombs, and if the Americans did, then worrying about whether the Soviets were going to occupy a land devastated by A-bombs is IMOH not very rational point of view.

That some Soviet historians put forward such views during the Cold war would not surprise me, but are would these still be credible sources? Are there no minutes of the Japanese Cabinet meetings to discuss surrender and in those meetings what was the main perceived threat? From memory in his broadcast the Emperor mentioned the A-bomb as a new an terrible weapon, did he mention the Army's defeat at the hands of the Soviets?--Philip Baird Shearer 23:19, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I dont know any sources. All I can give is common sense. This is what the Japanese knew. They hade 1.1 million men in manchuria and 2.3 million on the main islands. They knew that manchuria had been run over and the 1.1 million had been destroyed in about a week. So 1 million = 1 week then 2 million must be 2 weeks. And you seem to look at this from only 2 points either the atomic bombings ALONE conviced the Japanese to give up or the Soviet Invasion ALONE did. The real answer must therefore be in the middle that the bombings togheter with the loss of Manchuria and the Kwantung Army and the losses of the whole Japanese Empire, which the americans and other allied forces had taken from the with their island jumping and Philipines campaing and other such campaigns, except the home islands. All these factors togheter and probably in equall terms conviced them that surrender was a must. Fighting to the death wouldnt matter because either they would be boombed or they would be over run. Because no matter how bravely they fought they wouldnt be able to stop the Soviets. A leasson they had learned twice once in 39 and now again in 45. And when we look at it from this point of view we can see that yes probably someone would rather surrender to the americans then the soviets. (Deng 23:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC))

I've readded the paragraph with a copy of the text on Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki including the sources provided on that page by —wwoods --Philip Baird Shearer 00:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Article title

Shouldn't this article be moved to Battle of Manchuria? —wwoods 01:25, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, reading the article it seems debatable so this is probably the best title.say1988 02:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Problem in introduction

It says:

"The invasion began on August 8, 1945, precisely three months after the German surrender on May 8."

But as this is about the the Soviet Union, should it not make referance to the fact that in the Soviet Union the German surrender was and is still remembered in former Soviiet state on May 9? That would make it consistant with being within 3 months. As I read within 3 months to mean less than, which excludes on 3 months.say1988 02:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

This paragraph needs work:

Japan's decision to surrender was made before the scale of the Soviet attack on Manchuria, Sakhalin Island, and the Kuril Islands was known, but had the war continued, the Soviets had plans to invade Hokkaido well before the other Allied invasion of Kyushu. Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings themselves were not the principal reason for capitulation. Instead, he contends, it was the swift and devastating Soviet victories on the mainland in the week following Stalin's August 8 declaration of war that forced the Japanese message of surrender on August 15, 1945

It contradict's itself and drops Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's name in without explaining who he is. I think that his name should be left out and mentioned later in the article.

Soviet Invasion of Hokkaido?

Every World War II history notes the fanatical Japanese defenses and stubborn resistance the US would have faced had it attempted an invasion of the Japanese home islands, and such resistance is frequently given as the justification for the quick ending of the war that the atomic bombs brought. Given this context - that the United States Pacific Forces, with all of its naval and air superiority and the superior firepower of its infantry would expect extremely high casualties in any amphibious landings and invasions - how did the Soviets expect to be able to pull off an invasion of one of the Japanese home islands? The Soviet naval assets paled in comparison with the American ones, not to mention that their troops lacked the experience in amphibious warfare that the Americans had. That it is claimed the Soviets would be able to mobilize enough assets to invade even before the Americans simply boggles me. What kind of navy were they planning to invade with? Fishing boats turned into troop carriers? Did they even have sufficient assets to be able to supply an army by sea? Basically, my question is: did the Soviets ever have a realistic chance of taking Hokkaido had the two a-bombs not been dropped?--Yuje 20:24, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I sense subjectivity from you.

Yes, Soviets had realistic chances. Nazis troops were serious, not japanese 195.225.160.109 11:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Hehe they had allready taken some Japanese Islands in operation August Storm, what is hard for many to understand and you are no different Yuje, is that the Soviet army in 1945 was the BEST nothing would have stoped it, they blew out the Japanes from Manchuria in less then 2 weeks and the Japanes had 1.1 million troops there. In the home Islands the Japanes had 2.2 million so it would have probably been over in 3 weeks. Study more and you will learn or study nothing and learn nothing it is up to you. The Soviets also had done some amphibious operations the Ilsands for one but more importantly in the Crimea Lokqs 23:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

More info

Their si alot of valuable info in the article "Evacuatio of Manchukuo which should be added to the campaign section.

Number of Soviet attacks on Japan

In the opening paragraph it says "It marked the initial and only military action of the Soviet Union against the Empire of Japan..." In his book Stalin. The Court Of The Red Tsar, Simon Sebag Montefiore writes that Soviet Union attacked Japan in 1939. Though a limited attack, it was effective and reached it purpose: Japan later never attacked Soviet Union, and it allowed a relocation of some 400 000 soldiers to the defense of Moscow in 1941. --JerryC 18:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all it was the Japanes who attackked the Soviets, you are looking for the Battle of Khalkhin Gol and dont take what Simon in his books says so seriously he skips the whole part from 43 and onwards when the Soviets were winning. Lokqs 23:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

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