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Current disputes

Talk:Transylvanian peasant revolt#Neutrality II

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Transylvanian peasant revolt (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Borsoka (talk · contribs)
• Rgvis (talk · contribs)
• Seraphim System (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Rgvis says that the article Transylvanian peasant revolt is unbalanced and disputes its neutrality.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I sought assistance from Wikiproject:Romania and from Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. I also changed the text, taking into account suggestions from members of the latter noticeboard, but Rqvis still maintains his/her view. All my attempts to persuade him to explain his/her concerns have failed, because he/she accusses me of misconduct and refers to "other editors" who allegedly share his/her concerns. I involved Seraphim System because Rgvis accuses me of changing his/her edits.

How do you think we can help?

I do not know. I hope you will know. Thank you for your assistance.

Summary of dispute by Rgvis

Summary of dispute by Seraphim System

It does look like a response was inserted in the middle of my comment, but this could have been a good faith error. It did not alter my comment. Beyond that, I don't remember much about this dispute and I was only briefly involved so I am not sure how much help I will be, but I am willing to participate if it would be helpful. Seraphim System 16:41, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the above clarification. I would be grateful if you could participate in the resolution process. Borsoka (talk) 16:56, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Transylvanian peasant revolt#Neutrality II discussion

• Volunteer note - The posting at the neutral point of view noticeboard has been closed without resolution, so that the filing here is the only current effort to resolve this dispute. The filing party has notified the other parties. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:35, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - Are the editors willing to have moderated discussion in which they focus on article content and not on each other? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:20, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Thank you for your moderation. Borsoka (talk) 17:29, 8 February 2018 (UTC)Borsoka (talk) 10:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - Do the editors want to engage in moderated discussion of content only, without commenting on conduct or each other? Sometimes resolving the content issue, whether by mediation or otherwise, will end the conduct issues or at least permit the conduct issues to subside, but this noticeboard is only for the discussion of article content. If the editors will discuss content, a volunteer moderator will mediate. (If the editors want to talk about conduct, this is the wrong place and/or the wrong time.) Robert McClenon (talk) 14:04, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

• Yes. Borsoka (talk) 02:22, 11 February 2018 (UTC)
• Comment I would be willing to participate in the discussion as well, but it would be helpful for me also if editors agree to just focus on content and sources here. The volunteers here can not resolve conduct issues - but I think it is a good idea to at least try this discussion first and ANI may not be necessary - sometimes it is better to try to AGF and start over to work through a content dispute.Seraphim System 02:32, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

• Volunteer inquiry - User:Rgvis - Are you willing to take part in discussion here that is limited to article content (and perhaps civil discussion of article content can avoid the need to focus on conduct)? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:33, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Sure, no problem (although it wouldn't be the first time, in this case), we can try again (patiently, due to time constraints). (Rgvis (talk) 08:26, 12 February 2018 (UTC))

First statement by moderator

Okay. I will try to mediate this dispute. Please read User:Robert McClenon/Mediation Rules and follow the rules. Comment on content only, and not on contributors. Be civil and concise. Take note of the rule that you are expected to reply to my requests for inputs every 48 hours. (I see a mention of time constraints. If you cannot respond within 48 hours, it may be necessary to close this case, and formal mediation, which can take months, may work better.) Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think the issues are with regard to what should be in the article? (Talk only about the article, not about the process or the editors.) Robert McClenon (talk) 11:41, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

I do not know. Borsoka (talk) 16:53, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Let's start with the revision of the name of Vlachs to that of Romanians, in general context. (Rgvis (talk) 07:44, 14 February 2018 (UTC))

First statements by editors

Thank you for your suggestion. Why do you think, the replacement of the Vlach ethnonym is necessary? Please note that two "neutral" historians cited in the article (Joseph Held and Jean W. Sedlar) insist on the use of the Vlach ethnonym in the context. Borsoka (talk) 08:24, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

Comment in the section for statements by editors. Reply only to the moderator and not to each other.

It appears that the only real issue is whether to use the ethnonym 'Vlach' or 'Romanians'. Is that correct? If so, please justify your position on the ethnonym. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:29, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

As the moderator, I am neutral, but I need to be persuaded that it is necessary to change the ethnonym. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:29, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

This is only the first issue.

Why "Romanian" instead "Vlach":

• standard recommendation, as per WP:NCET
• the historian's explanation: ,
• to avoid any confusion with the contemporary meaning of "Vlach":

As for Jean W. Sedlar, she does not insist on the use of any term ("Romanian" or "Vlach", "Hungarian" or "Magyar", etc): .

(Rgvis (talk) 09:09, 15 February 2018 (UTC))

Third statement by moderator

An editor states above, "This is only the first issue", about changing a denonym. I had asked the editors to identify the issues, not to identify one issue at a time. Will each editor please identify all of the issues that they think need to be addressed? If it is necessary to provide a long list of issues, provide a long list of issues, but, if so, I may find it necessary to refer this dispute to formal mediation, a lengthy and careful process. Please state what the issues as to article content are. Be civil, and as concise as possible. Comment on content, not contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:59, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Third statements by editors

. .

Talk:Gjirokastër

There has been no substantive response from the named editors after four days. Participation here is voluntary. If the purpose of this request is a question about the reliability of a source, a request can be made at the reliable source noticeboard. Otherwise, we may have a case where the other editors are not interested in moderated discussion. Please try RSN if there is an issue about reliability of a source. If there is a content issue, discuss it at the article talk page. If discussion there fails, see WP:DISCFAIL. Please note that disruptive editing concerning the Balkans is subject to discretionary sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:37, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Kalki Koechlin#Nationality

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Kalki Koechlin#Nationality (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mark the train (talk · contribs)
• Wisi eu (talk · contribs)
• Kailash29792 (talk · contribs)
• Numerounovedant (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The nationality of an actor, Kalki Koechlin, has been the subject of edits and reverts from time to time. She has been mentioned as holding a French passport in a French magazine, Ouest. Indian sources 'India Today' and 'The Hindu' mention her Indian citizenship as quoted by the actress herself. All these three sources are from around 2015-16 and finding more reliable sources to support either stance has been an issue.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A notice at WikiProject India didn't attract any comments, while another discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Numerounovedant#Nationality_of_Kalki_Koechlin in January was inconclusive.

How do you think we can help?

Getting more editors involved to reach a consensus can help resolve the issue (perhaps someone who has a much detailed understanding of citizenship laws). On consensus, an editnotice can be placed so that the nationality in several parts of the article isn't meddled with henceforth.

Summary of dispute by Wisi eu

Kalki Koechlin, an actress, has stated in an interview that she has a *French passport only* for travel purposes, stating that the country she lives and works in did not allow her to take dual nationality. Hence the corrections on her EN wiki page. User: Wisi_eu 13 Feb. 2018 - 16:03 (CET) —Preceding undated comment added 15:03, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Kailash29792

Summary of dispute by Numerounovedant

Talk:Kalki Koechlin#Nationality discussion

Volunteer note: There has been adequate discussion and notice. However, I'm neither "taking" this nor opening it for discussion. Indeed, I won't be taking it (or participating as a party to the dispute). I have given an "Nth Opinion" at the article talk page noting that much or all the current discussion is attempting to reach a conclusion which could be in violation of the no original research policy if included in the article. If the volunteer who takes the case agrees with that assessment, then my suggestion would be to close this request with a recommendation that discussion pick back up at the article talk page taking the no original research policy into consideration. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:49, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - Now that the editors have had time to review the reminder of TransporterMan about original research, which includes all speculation as to Koechlin's reasons for what passport she uses and what else she does, do the editors want to engage in moderated discussion about verifiable content? If there is no response (or negative response), it will be concluded that this thread can be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

"Polish death camp" controversy

Closed as withdrawn by filing party. The filing party is still strongly cautioned not to use the label vandalism to characterize edits in a content dispute, and is reminded that the inaccurate claim of vandalism is a personal attack. All of the editors are urged to continue discussion at the article talk page. If discussion there is inconclusive, a new request can be made for moderated discussion here, knowing that discussion is limited to article content. Disruptive editing may be reported at WP:ANI, but discussion of content disputes is always better than trying to deal with conduct. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:38, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Kashmir conflict#Nimitz replacement

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Kashmir conflict#Nimitz replacement (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Kautilya3 (talk · contribs)
• Dilpa kaur (talk · contribs)
• Mar4d (talk · contribs)
• NadirAli (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

On 9 February, I made an edit to the Kashmir conflict page with the edit summary copy edit and add sources. In the process, I have expanded a sentence based on the information from a source, which can be seen more clearly in this redo of the edit. Dilpa kaur complained on the talk page that it fails NPOV. Then Mar4d and NadirAli reverted it, also claiming that it fails NPOV. However, nobody has explained how it fails NPOV. The additional source provided by Dilpa kaur says pretty much the same thing.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page discussion at Talk:Kashmir conflict#Nimitz replacement.

How do you think we can help?

Interrogate and resolve the claim of NPOV failure.

Summary of dispute by Dilpa kaur

Summary of dispute by Mar4d

Summary of dispute by NadirAli

Kautilya3's claim that there is no contradiction between the sources is WP:MISREPRESENTATION.

Here's the Ganguly source<ref name="Ganguly2002">Sumit Ganguly (5 January 2002). Conflict Unending: India-Pakistan Tensions Since 1947. Columbia University Press. pp. 24–. ISBN 978-0-231-50740-0.

They also reached an informal agreement that the initial UN appointed plebiscite administrator, Adm. Chester W. Nimitz of the United States, would have to be replaced. India had taken the lead in pushing for Nimitz's removal because it had perceived a pro-Pakistani bias on the part of the United States in the Security Council debates. However, when word of this informal agreement became public, an outcry ensued against the Indian position throughout influential sections of the Pakistani press. Nehru and Bogra, to their mutual credit, nonetheless managed to limit the damage and placed the negotiations back on track.

A few things to note here. Nimitz was a UN appointee and it was India which took the lead in demanding the removal of a UN appointed plebiscite administrator. So clearly the whole problem here is India's fault as it bad to pick issues with the U.N. Yet Kautilya3's edits seek to place the blame solely on Pakistan as the reason for the stall in negotiations for a plebiscite. This is why his edit fails WP:NPOV as it misses India's role in stirring up the matter.

Now here is the contradiction. Rizvi is saying that after agreeing to India's demand Mr Bogra (Pakistani PM) backtracked from the agreement to remove Nimitz. This contradicts Ganguly who says that after the agreement to remove Nimitz was done there was an outcry in the Pakistani press but still Bogra ("to his credit") resisted it and managed to keep the negotiations with India on track. Ganguly then says the real problem started with the US announcement to send military aid to Pakistan.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 00:25, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Kashmir conflict#Nimitz replacement discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been discussion on the article talk page. The filing editor has notified the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:45, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Malayalam

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Malayalam (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Nagadeepa (talk · contribs)
• Hyper9 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Debate on origins of Malayalam

There has been heated arguments on the Malayalam page. One editor Hyper9 is consistently deleting referenced arguments and distorting an accurate scientific source (S.V Shanmugam) to promote his fringe views (That Malayalam has an independent origin from Tamil). 3rd party assistance is needed to maintain an accurate history of the language.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Attempted reasoned discussion on talk page to no avail. Attempted to hold a dispute resolution a few days ago which was unilaterally abrogated by Hyper9. Hyper9 has now agreed to take part in the process, provided that the discussion is solely focused on the arguments and not his personal character or behaviour.

How do you think we can help?

An independent mediator to ensure that scientific sources are not distorted and wilfully misinterpreted.

Summary of dispute by Hyper9

Talk:Malayalam discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been discussion on the article talk page. The filing party has not yet notified the other editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - Discussion at this noticeboard is always about article content. It is never about editor behavior, let alone editor character. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - I do not intend to act as a moderator or mediator for this discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Noted the above. Mediation is the wrong word. There is a dispute that needs to be resolved in order to ensure that Misplaced Pages is accurate and not parroting fringe theories. Especially false theories which have been jettisoned by more serious scholars in the literature. Unfortunately, Hyper9 has been repeatedly deleting all my referenced edits which reflect the mainstream view and true history. This is unacceptable. This can only be sorted out with 3rd party input.

Nagadeepa (talk) 23:35, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

User:Nagadeepa - If mediation is the wrong word for what you want, then you may be at the wrong noticeboard. Mediation is what this noticeboard does. The purpose of this noticeboard is to facilitate moderated discussion with the objective of achieving compromise on article content. If you want to discuss article content in order to work out satisfactory compromise, this is a reasonable place. If you have some other objective, you may need to go somewhere else. If you and Hyper9 both want mediation, I would suggest formal mediation, a long careful process. If you think that Hyper9 is being tendentious or otherwise disruptive, or is trying to advance fringe theories, you may report them at WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. The latter is likely to be more effective, and may be swift and draconian. Those are probably your choices, formal mediation, or arbitration enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

I will probably be closing this thread in 24 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

I would like to point out once again to the language used, now calling me a 'mad man' (in the response below), by the other editor after they have committed to not resorting to personal attacks. I am surprised that this user is not being censured here nor on the original Talk page by responsible Admins. And I fail to see again why this DRN should now proceed without an apology from the other editor. I thought that the other editor might have rectified his bad behaviour, but clearly I was wrong. In any case, these DRNs are being opened even before any discussion on the Talk page. I would say that it probably constitutes an abuse of such fail-safes. Hyper9 (talk) 10:54, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I am afraid talking to you does feel like I'm talking to a mad man. You clearly have good command of the English language yet you act like you cannot read. I suspect you are cunningly playing dumb. I am afraid I will have to report you as Robert has suggested.

You have consistently distorted the accurate source by Shanmugam. Shanmugam clearly indicates that Govindakutty's fringe theory is untenable when he quotes Ayyar's work. This is absolutely clear to anyone with basic English who reads that section.

Anyway I have given up trying to get through to you (like the many before me) and will have to report you. I am not happy that it had to come to this.

Nagadeepa (talk) 14:48, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk:2018 Hong Kong bus accident#Condolences

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:2018 Hong Kong bus accident#Condolences (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Citobun (talk · contribs)
• 223.89.144.195 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is quite simple which is to whether to remove the the "Mainland Chinese government" section in the article 2018_Hong_Kong_bus_accident (see one of the disputed edits). The other user "Citobun" insists that the content of this section is "inconsequential" and "propagandistic" and should thus be removed. Whilst I believe that that section should be kept.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have tried to discuss this isuue with the other user in the talkpage. Unfortunately we two simply cannot reach a consensus and still adhere to our own views.

How do you think we can help?

Give us a third-party and neutral opinion so that we can resolve it.

Summary of dispute by Citobun

This Beijing IP (as well as 223.104.19.131, using a dynamic IP I guess) is an WP:SPA going about pushing the viewpoint of the Chinese government here and there. When I originally wrote the "reactions" section I purposely left out inconsequential reactions, like token politician condolences, because many officials and governments expressed such sentiments, and I don't think it's useful to fill up the article with this sort of cruft, especially from parties who are not involved with the incident. Upon removing the section I was promptly accused of being "anti-China". It is apparent from IP's editing behavior and attitude that the purpose of adding this section is simply to assert Chinese sovereignty over Hong Kong. Secondly, by "propagandistic" I refer to the melodramatic tone of the original content. It wasn't a quotation either. The version I revised (before deleting it entirely) is better but still odd and still ultimately kind of pointless to include.

I am pretty sure the above two IPs are related to 171.10.177.144?? I suspect sock puppetry, or collusion among Chinese political agenda editors, through some outside means of communications, who are edit warring on the same few articles.

I also want to add that we already got a third opinion at the talk page. And lastly, it makes no sense to call me "anti-China" for this considering I was the one who originally added the responses from Carrie Lam (the most prominent pro-China figure in Hong Kong) as well as the pro-Beijing Federation of Trade Unions. The difference is that Lam and the FTU's comments had actual implications, whereas the comments from the mainland government were just inconsequential token formalities. Citobun (talk) 11:56, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by 223.89.144.195

Talk:2018 Hong Kong bus accident#Condolences discussion

Just one thing I would like to point out, the original content of this section was not added by me, but by NYKTNE (talk · contribs) through this edit.--223.89.144.195 (talk) 09:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

• Volunteer note - The filing editor is advised that if they want to engage in dispute resolution, they will be better off to register an account. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:49, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
• Volunteer note - If the only issue is whether to keep or remove a section, a Request for Comments may be appropriate. The purpose of discussion here would be to decide whether to compromise, such as by abridging the section. Do the editors want assistance in compromise, or do they want a yes/no answer? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:15, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

To me, any assistance in compromise is better. --223.89.144.195 (talk) 02:06, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

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