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Revision as of 23:50, 27 February 2018 editThewolfchild (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers51,833 edits →Mass shootings← Previous edit Revision as of 00:37, 28 February 2018 edit undoThewolfchild (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers51,833 edits →in media resNext edit →
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===''in media res''=== ===''in media res''===
*Considering there are ongoing discussions about the content and title of this page (and related articles and subjects, including an active RfC that could affect this page), I'm wondering why it is that editors are currently making content changes to this article without even mentioning them here on the talk page first? isn't this the kind of thing that leads to disputes and disruption? Perhaps we should put the content changes on hold until the discussions are done and there is consensus on what should and shouldn't be going into these articles. JMHO - <span style="text-shadow:#E05FFF 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">'']''</span> 23:24, 22 February 2018 (UTC) *Considering there are ongoing discussions about the content and title of this page (and related articles and subjects, including an active RfC that could affect this page), I'm wondering why it is that editors are currently making content changes to this article without even mentioning them here on the talk page first? isn't this the kind of thing that leads to disputes and disruption? Perhaps we should put the content changes on hold until the discussions are done and there is consensus on what should and shouldn't be going into these articles. JMHO - <span style="text-shadow:#E05FFF 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">'']''</span> 23:24, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

===follow up===
I'll post this here, because I already inquired about this, in this section, and I don't to want to split off from any discussion about a specific edit below. Above, {{u|Springee}} asked about "adding content", which was appropriate to ask because the addition of some types of content is currently being disputed. There were several discussions that popped up on firearms related pages, seeking local consensuses, they were closed and directed to the Firearms Project for a central discussion. That location was disputed, so now we're having a ]. From what I've seen, there is no consensus there either way, and as of yet it is still open.

Meanwhile, Springee's question here turned into a discussion of rights ownerships, etc. and meanwhile, I noticed that while all this was going on, some editors were adding content ''anyway''. We now have a kind of ']' occurring, ''while'' discussions are taking place on whether or not to even add such content and if so, how it should be added. There is now a section here titled "Mass-shootings" that wasn't there a few days ago, and within it, links to three of the deadliest mass-shootings, and a notation of AR-15s being involved in 13 total. Then links to four more shootings were added, making it seven. Now three more links are added, making it ten. (this latest edit is the discussion I mentioned below)

At the same time, significant content is also being removed as "promotional", by editors such as "K.e.Coffman", who have clearly taken a position on this issue, and editors such as "AzureCitizen" are continually adding content, without so much as a peep here on the talk page, knowing full well this content is currently being disputed. Why bother having RfCs? Or Consensus? Or even talk pages, if controversial subjects are just going to be a free-for-all anyway? I think we should slow down on the editing here until some content decisions have been made by the community. Or else there'll just be continuous debates, reverts, mass-changes, etc. The kind of disruption we want to avoid. - <span style="text-shadow:#E05FFF 0.2em 0.2em 0.5em; class=texhtml">'']''</span> 00:36, 28 February 2018 (UTC)


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RE: introductory statement, origin/use of "modern sporting rifle"

Using Google and Wayback you can find the exact term "modern sporting rifle" (or rifles plural) dating back to 1913 at the least (see: Western New England Magazine; Volume 3, No. 1). More recently, this term can be found in multiple books on firearms, magazine articles, marketing material, and other relevant publication throughout the 1990s and early 2000s. Clearly the entire claim (and implication) that the term was "created" in or "dated" to 2009 is demonstrably false. Also, close variations such as "modern sporting firearm" or "gun" have been in use long before 2009, as have "sporting rifle(s)". See also: vis-a-vis "classic sporting rifle". If there are no objections on merit, I propose to delete this provably false statement that reeks of politicized viewpoint or advocacy smear against the firearm industry. -- Brewster1971 (talk) 00:12, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

In a way the 1866 Winchester developed from the 1860 Henry used by the Union Army in the America Civil War was a modern sporting rifle with a military heritage. (Well, it was modern for 1860s.) American sports shooters tend to sporterize military rifles in part because they are seen as more robust and easy to maintain than many civilian designs. Also military vets often see no need to relearn a weapons system (safety, handling, maintenance) just to take up recreational shooting target or hunting. Americans have a tradition of adapting the current military issue weapon to sporting purposes and the government through the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, Director of Civilian Marksmanship, Civilian Marksmanship Program has actively promoted civilian possession and training with military arms. Countries that fear revolution have a history of banning civilian ownership of military rifles or even rifles of military caliber, but America has a tradition of the military relying on volunteerism in the face of national emergency and see civilian familiarity with issue arm as an asset and not a liability. Modern sporting rifles based on the current military issue rifle is just American. Like civilian Jeeps and Humvees. -- Naaman Brown (talk) 14:04, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

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Use in mass shootings in the United States

Moved to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Firearms#Use of AR-15 Style Rifles in Mass Shootings
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • The content below was added by a sock of a blocked editor ]

The subject of this article is a highly noteworthy category of firearms. The below proposed content is entirely compliant with Misplaced Pages policy and guideline; inclusion of this aspect of the subject is required by Misplaced Pages's neutrality policy, and the exclusion of all mention of this aspect is a severe policy violation. The sources are among the most highly reliable and noteworthy available, including The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, Time, U.S. News & World Report, and USA Today. These sources are much more noteworthy than most of the sources currently in the article. The use of the subject of this article in mass shootings is objectively, as measured by coverage in noteworthy reliable sources, the single most noteworthy aspect of the subject of this article.

According to the The New York Times, as of February, 2018 AR-15 style rifles were used in five of the six most deadly mass shootings in the United States between 2012 and 2018 (the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Newtown, Connecticut; the 2015 San Bernardino attack in California; the 2017 Las Vegas shooting in Nevada; the 2017 Sutherland Springs church shooting in Texas; and the 2018 Douglas High School shooting in Parkland, Florida). According to The Washington Post, AR-15 style rifles were used in five of the most deadly mass shootings between 2012 and 2018.

In February 2018 the Los Angeles Times included the 2016 Orlando nightclub shooting in Florida in reporting that AR-15 style rifles were used in the six most recent of the ten most deadly mass shootings in modern United States history. According to The Wall Street Journal in 2018, AR-15 style rifles were used in six of the ten most deadly mass shootings in modern United States history. According to Time magazine, AR-15 style rifles were used in six of the ten most deadly mass shootings between 2008 and 2018.

USA Today identified twelve mass shootings in the United States that involved AR-15 style rifles between February 1984 and February 2018.

AR-15 style rifles have been described as "the weapon of choice" of perpetrators of mass shootings by The New York Times, CNN, U.S. News & World Report, and USA Today.

References

  1. ^ Oppel Jr., Richard A. (February 15, 2018). "In Florida, an AR-15 Is Easier to Buy Than a Handgun". The New York Times. Retrieved February 15, 2018. Newtown. San Bernardino. Las Vegas. Sutherland Springs. And now, Parkland. Five of the six deadliest mass shootings of the past six years in the United States. In each of them, the gunman had an AR-15-style semiautomatic rifle...The N.R.A. calls the AR-15 the most popular rifle in America. The carnage in Florida on Wednesday that left at least 17 dead seemed to confirm that the rifle and its variants have also become the weapons of choice for mass killers.
  2. Vitkovskaya, Julie; Martin, Patrick (February 16, 2018). "4 basic questions about the AR-15". The Washington Post. An AR-15 once again made an appearance at a mass shooting, this time at a Parkland, Fla., high school on Wednesday...These AR-style rifles have appeared in some of the deadliest shootings in the last few years, including a concert in Las Vegas, a nightclub in Orlando, a church in Texas and an elementary school in Newtown, Conn.
  3. Pearce, Matt (February 14, 2018). "Mass shootings are getting deadlier. And the latest ones all have something new in common: The AR-15". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved February 15, 2018. The nation's mass-shooting problem seems to be getting worse. And the latest, most serious shootings all seem to have one new thing in common: the AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle...in all of the latest incidents — Newtown, Conn., in 2012; San Bernardino, Calif., in 2015; Orlando, Fla., in 2016; Las Vegas, 2017; Sutherland Springs, Texas, 2017 — the attackers primarily used AR-15 semiautomatic rifles.
  4. Elinson, Zusha (February 16, 2018). "AR-15 Style Rifles: Popular and Easily Customized". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved February 16, 2018. Six of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in modern U.S. history have taken place since 2012. All of the shooters in those six attacks used AR-15 style rifles...
  5. Jenkins, Aric (February 15, 2018). "Many Mass Shootings in America Have 1 Thing in Common: AR-15 Rifles". Time. Retrieved February 16, 2018. Six of the 10 deadliest mass shootings in the U.S. over the past decade have used an AR-15-style semi-automatic rifle.
  6. Cummings, William; Jansen, Bart (February 14, 2018). "Why the AR-15 keeps appearing at America's deadliest mass shootings". USA Today. Retrieved February 15, 2018. Here is a list of mass shootings in the U.S. that featured AR-15-style rifles during the last 35 years, courtesy of the Stanford Geospatial Center and Stanford Libraries and USA TODAY research...
  7. Smith, Aaron (June 21, 2016). "Why the AR-15 is the mass shooter's go-to weapon". CNN. Retrieved February 15, 2018. The AR-15, the type of rifle used in the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history, is the weapon of choice for mass killers. Omar Mateen used a Sig Sauer AR-15 rifle, and also a Glock handgun, in his murder of 49 people at a gay nightclub in Orlando on Sunday, according to the FBI. He shot more than 100 people, including survivors, before he was gunned down by police...The AR-15, which has been used by the U.S. military in every war since Vietnam, has also served as a murder weapon in some of the most horrific mass shootings. AR-15s were used to kill and maim crowds of innocent people at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Connecticut; a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado; and a workplace party in San Bernardino, California.
  8. Williams, Joseph P. (November 7, 2017). "How the AR-15 Became One of the Most Popular Guns in America, A brief history of the guns that have become the weapons of choice for mass shootings". U.S. News & World Report. Retrieved February 15, 2018. They're lightweight, relatively cheap and extremely lethal, inspired by Nazi infantrymen on the Eastern Front during World War II. They're so user-friendly some retailers recommend them for children, yet their design is so aggressive one marketer compared them to carrying a "man card" -- although ladies who dare can get theirs in pink. And if the last few mass shootings are any indication, guns modeled after the AR-15 assault rifle -- arguably the most popular, most enduring and most profitable firearm in the U.S. -- have become the weapon of choice for unstable, homicidal men who want to kill a lot of people very, very quickly.
  9. Jansen, Bart; Cummings, William (November 6, 2017). "Why mass shooters are increasingly using AR-15s". USA Today. Retrieved February 15, 2018. AR-15 style rifles have been the weapon of choice in many recent mass shootings, including the Texas church shooting Sunday, the Las Vegas concert last month, the Orlando nightclub last year and Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012.

The article currently grossly fails to neutrally summarize the 2017 USA Today source, drawing out only the NRA's estimate of the number of AR-15 style rifles owned in the US, while conspicuously ignoring the lead of the source: the use in mass shootings.

straw poll

If you oppose the above proposed content, kindly propose an alternative summarization of these noteworthy reliable sources.IMAParent (talk) 20:00, 16 February 2018 (UTC) blocked sock editor ]

@Limpscash: How would you summarize these sources? IMAParent (talk) 17:08, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support -- Although the repetition in your text should be seriously reduced, and more context added that most firearm-related homicides in the US are from handguns.--Pharos (talk) 15:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment -- If this article is going to talk about the use of modern sporting rifles in mass shootings, and provide reliable statistics such as these, it should also talk about the role of MSRs in overall U.S. gun violence. In the U.S., many people are shot every year. The large majority of those shootings are not mass shootings, and I'm under the impression that most individual gun crimes are done with handguns. Can we provide statistics showing, out of all the people in the U.S. who were shot in recent years, what percentage were shot with MSRs? I believe the percentage will be quite low, but I haven't looked into this myself. — Mudwater 15:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • It seems like it's about 5% for rifles in overall U.S. gun violence, though MSRs aren't broken out, and a substantial number of firearms homicides are from an unidentified weapon. It would be appropriate to include the relevant numbers.--Pharos (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
I would say that the role in mass shootings is notable on its own, regardless of mass shootings in general. –dlthewave ☎ 19:01, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
For whatever it's worth, here's a quote from a recent Associated Press article: "On average, more than 13,000 people are killed each year in the United States by guns, and most of those incidents involve handguns while a tiny fraction involve an AR-style firearm. Still, the AR plays an oversized role in many of the most high-profile shootings, including..." — Mudwater 15:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose--RAF910 (talk) 17:17, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Agree with Pharos and Mudwater. This is our article for "AR-style" or "AR-15 style" rifles, which are widely covered in regards to mass shootings, so it isn't unreasonable to include that here with the proper context. ansh666 19:09, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose - mass-shootings already have their own articles, all relevant info is, or should be, in that page and not needlessly duplicated on other articles. If we start adding info about just one shooting incident to one tenuously-connected article, we'll be opening a literal Pandora's box (figuratively speaking). We'll have to add info on numerous firearms-related incidents to multiple articles, throwing many of them out of balance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewolfchild (talk • contribs) 19:22, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
@Thewolfchild: If we would be opening a Pandora's box, it would be a metaphoric and not a literal one. And here's a wink to indicate that I know that you're not using the word "literal" in the literal sense: — Mudwater 19:34, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Qualified support for the inclusion an unemotional paragraph listing the notable crimes these rifles have been used to commit, there is precedence in the Derringer article with the mention of the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Inclusions of statistical comparisons of firearm types used in mass shootings, firearms types used in all gun crimes and legal firearms usage vs illegal firearms usage is irrelevant. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 21:19, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support WP:DUE, relevant, all these articles are specifically and entirely about these guns and how they are used in mass shootings. Not just random articles where these guns are mentioned. Don't need to repeat 6 out 10 three times though. Galobtter (pingó mió) 10:16, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support though I probably don't have a vote. Please also change AR-15 to redirect here. People who want to learn about a specific brand of rifles can choose it from the list. 2400:2410:9021:8D00:449F:4B57:9997:FB3D (talk) 11:59, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Article Title

I suspect Misplaced Pages is used to try an create language usage. Can someone please show sources that show that the term "Modern Sporting Rifle" is used anywhere nearly as much as "AR-15" and derivatives? - 91.10.1.207 (talk) 13:57, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Modern sporting rifle is a euphemism that the gun industry created in 2009 to describe modular semi-automatic rifles. The phrase is an artful attempt to recast weapons such as the MCX and the AR-15 (and its variants) as all-American toys. Never mind “quiet and deadly” and “close-quarters battle”: Modern sporting rifle conjures up images of aristocrats riding with their hounds, vacationers knocking clays out of the sky, and ruddy-faced athletes enjoying their autumns in Carhartt jackets and mud-spattered ATVs. The term is a genius act of marketing, meant to bring these deadly weapons into the mainstream and keep them there. It’s also disingenuous hokum that exists to cloud debate, like calling a used car “pre-owned.” Omar Mateen Had a “Modern Sporting Rifle”
Also here:
  • Unlike fully automatic weapons — which have been almost completely banned in the U.S. for decades — the AR-15 and other rifles like it are semi-automatic, meaning a single press of the trigger fires one bullet. Other manufacturers, such as Smith & Wesson, list their versions of the AR-15 under the "modern sporting rifle" category. "AR-15s are not the problem, manufacturers say".
  • Its versatility is part of what makes the AR-15 appealing. With the capability of shooting 30 rounds in a matter of seconds, the semi-automatic rifle is marketed by several gun groups as a “modern sporting rifle.” "Why more people are buying AR-15 rifles"
I believe that "AR-15 style rifle" is a better choice for the article title, per WP:COMMONNAME. I first encountered that issue at #Modern sporting rifle? and believe that "AR-15 style rifle" is much more intuitive for the general reader. See for example pageview stats for Colt AR-15 while AR-15 was a redirect to the Colt page. People were clearly looking for info on "AR-15 semi-automatic rifle" or similar. Please also see the discussion at WikiProject Firearms: #Why the generic page is not called AR-15.
Please let me know if there are any concerns. I would be happy to start an RM if needed. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Wow K.e.coffman, you're letting it all hang out. Good. RAF, I have no idea what you mean with "term most commonly associated with generic AR-15"; I don't think anyone, outside of your project maybe, hears "AR-15" and thinks "OH THAT'S THAT MODERN SPORTING RIFLE FOR SPORT!" I do find it amusing that you said, or quoted, "generic AR-15", which would also be appropriate. Nor do I know what the referent is of "it" or what you mean with happenstance. In the meantime I hope that you understand the reasons for the move and the terminology; I think we can do more for our reader in terms of redirects and hatnotes, but this is a good start. Drmies (talk) 22:19, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Hmm. I know I said "AR-15 style rifle" above, but I'm not sure if "style" or "type" is more prevalent. I'm pretty sure I've seen both used. But frankly that's descending into unnecessary pedantry. ansh666 22:27, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move to AR-15 style rife. Furthermore, I think Modern sporting rifle shouldn't be a redirect to here - it should be a DAG or short stub - as it refers to several different types of rifles - e.g. SIG MCX - as I understand it MSR can refer to almost any modern assault rife "dumbed down" to US retail regulatory requirements. AR-15 derivatives are perhaps the largest segment of this market - but not exclusively so.Icewhiz (talk) 07:16, 20 February 2018 (UTC) Note, there is also some pre-AR-15 use of this term - .Icewhiz (talk) 07:35, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move This is what it is most commonly known as, and I really fail to see the issue as to why it should not be called this.Slatersteven (talk) 13:17, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support the move, I think it better describes the rifles. Additionally I think the use in mass shootings section strikes the right balance. Cavalryman V31 (talk) 13:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC).
  • Support move. Surprised to see this done boldly, I thought I would have to build a pile of convincing evidence to make a strong case to ensure passage. I laid a bit of the groundwork for this when I created the redirect from this title on 12 January 2018 and am happy to see it moved over the redirect with a minimum of drama. Modern sporting rifle should redirect here as the primary topic for that "official" industry-coined name. Feel free to create Modern sporting rifle (disambiguation) for other uses. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support the move Far from convinced the "modern sporting rifle" is a common name for an AR15-type rifle. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:15, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

improper move

This move was done improperly. The editor that moved this page title did so without consensus, and knowing full well this is a controversial subject that is still being debated even now. The editor should have posted a move request per Misplaced Pages:Requested moves/Controversial and sought consensus. Having four (4) like-minded editors quickly add "support" after the fact is exactly the type of local consensus that can lead to further disputes that I noted at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Firearms. A move such as this should be posted for a set duration, giving the community an opportunity to discuss it and hopefully achieve a more solid, community-wide consensus. - WOLFchild 18:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Bold moves are not disallowed; there wasn't anything "improper" about it. The subsequent discussion validated the move. The term "Modern sporting rifle" is a non-neutral choice and is controversial as an article title. Neither is it a WP:COMMONNAME for this type of rifle:
  • "Modern sporting rifle is a euphemism that the gun industry created in 2009 to describe modular semi-automatic rifles. The phrase is an artful attempt to recast weapons such as the MCX and the AR-15 (and its variants) as all-American toys." Omar Mateen Had a “Modern Sporting Rifle”, Slate
The page was moved to the previous name against Talk page consensus, which seems clear to me. Please also see WP:MRNOT: "Do not request a move review if someone has boldly moved a page and you disagree. Instead, attempt to discuss it with the editor, and if the matter continues to be unresolved, start a formal WP:RM discussion on the article's talk page." K.e.coffman (talk) 00:42, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
All your reasoning for moving it is based on your opinion, which is clearly biased. You knew full well there are ongoing discussions, debates even, over this very page name, among the other related issues. You are not new here, you know when a page move is controversial or not, or is likely to be contested, (which I have now done) in which case, you do not move the page (and you certainly don't move it again). You need to post a proper page move request. The mere fact that you've cited these guidelines yourself shows you are aware of all this. Claiming it was "validated after the fact" (by four (4) other like minded editors) is not how consensus works. You need to give others an opportunity to participate in any discussion before the page is moved. The page needs to go back to it prior name, and the policies & guidelines on page moves need be followed. - WOLFchild 02:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Primary sources

I removed citations to primary sources from the 1st sentence of the lead. They are unneeded there anyway. Preserving this content here:

  • AR-15 style rifle (also known as modern sporting rifle (MSR)) is a general category of modular semi-automatic rifles based on the Colt AR-15 design and now made by many different manufacturers.

References

  1. http://www.colt.com/Portals/0/Specs/2016/AR15A4.pdf This Semi-Automatic Colt Rifle is a throwback to the full-size AR-15 which gave birth to the Modern Sporting Rifle]
  2. "DPMS Founder and President Retires". The Outdoor Wire Digital Network. 14 December 2009. Retrieved 16 August 2013. Luth's quest to introduce the hunting market to the AR platform was recognized in January 2009 when he was named to the Outdoor Life's OL-25, and later chosen by online voters as the OL-25 "Reader's Choice" recipient. The recent campaign by the NSSF to educate hunters everywhere about the "modern sporting rifle" can be directly attributed to Luth's push to make AR rifles acceptable firearms in the field, the woods and on the range.
  3. Gross, W. H. "Chip" (January 2, 2018). "7 Things You Didn't Know About the AR-15". NRA FAMILY. To counter that sentiment, the National Shooting Sports Foundation coined the term Modern Sporting Rifle, pointing out that these new semi-autos were no different in function than previous semi-automatic rifles. It took a while for the AR-15 concept to catch on and become fully accepted by sportsmen—especially with older hunters and shooters—but the floodgates gradually swung open and today AR-15s are the most popular sporting rifle platform. So if you own an AR-15 you also own a Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR), and vice versa.
  4. "Modern Sporting Rifle (MSR) Comprehensive Consumer Report 2010" (PDF). National Shooting Sports Foundation. 2010. Retrieved 16 August 2013.
  5. "Modern Sporting Rifle Facts". National Shooting Sports Foundation. 2013. Retrieved 21 August 2013. Chamberings include .22, .223 (5.56 x 45mm), 6.8 SPC, .308, .450 Bushmaster and about a dozen others. Upper receivers for pistol calibers such as 9 mm, .40, and .45 are available. There are even .410 shotgun versions.

Please let me know if there are any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:02, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I think it would be better to put back, at a minimum, the fifth one, that references the NSSF's website. It shows very clearly that the largest firearms trade group considers "modern sporting rifle" to be an equivalent term for "AR-15 style rifle". So even though it's a primary source, I think it's quite helpful. Although I would put it back with a different quote, or with no quote. And also, it could be placed right after the first mention of the term "modern sporting rifle". — Mudwater 00:24, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Good point; I re-added source #5 with this diff. Thank you for the suggestion. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Can we fill in the content?

Once the dust settles down I would hope we could start filling in a lot of the content that was likely in the older AR-15 articles. It would be good to have a complete section on how the rifles generally operate and variations/modifications to the basic design. Basically I think if someone comes to Misplaced Pages to learn how this type of rifle works and is built this would be the primary article. It could also cover some of the history starting with Armalite then Colt, touch on the M16 history etc. Yes, it can also have the politics with crime etc but I would hope we can keep it balanced. Just saying "it was the weapon used in X" feels a bit like the body count some have mentioned. We shouldn't hide that information but we should also include why gun rights people are opposed to bans etc. IMHO, it's not that including the crime information is bad, only that it seems that so often it's added as a one way thing. We should be sure to say why it's popular with law-abiding users and why sales have been strong etc. I would hope this article has length issues rather than just edit warring issues. Springee (talk) 02:23, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

  • Question -- is this already covered in AR-15_style_rifle#Background? Since this is an article about a category, it makes sense that it would provide an overview, while the details can be filled out at each rifle's article. I.e. the content should be fairly high-level, providing info on the category of rifles. This is my current thinking on the topic at the moment. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:18, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Not really. For example, look at the level of detail in this section of the Colt AR-15 article ] (and the next section). The Colt article as a lot more detail about the operation of the mechanism and the various parts. I'm not thinking this is a short term thing but I think it would be great to see this expand to include a lot more detail all around. There is so much information about the AR platform in general that ultimately we should be arguing about how to keep the article within the typical Wiki article size limits. This is something that I think will take time, I just don't want people to think the article's current state is where we should leave things. Springee (talk) 03:49, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Technically the Colt bought the rights from AmaLite, the ArmaLite AR-15 is the original. Colt is the trademark holder for AR-15. PackMecEng (talk) 04:20, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
Not exactly, Fairchild Industries had a subsidiary, Fairchild Arms International, Ltd. and ArmaLite was their brand/trademark which they would sell to Colt.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 04:31, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • @PackMecEng: your statement is conflating the semi-automatic-only Colt AR-15 with the select-fire ArmaLite AR-15 assault rifle. The ArmaLite AR-15 has not been made for over 50 years and was never sold to civilians. I don't believe it can be considered to be part of "AR-15 style rifles" that are being discussed in this article. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Propose copying operational material from Colt AR-15 article? The Colt AR-15 article used to be the general AR-15 article. I would propose either copying or moving the Operating Mechanism and/or Features sections to this article. The Operating Mechanisms could then be expanded to talk about some of the variations that have been produced. For example, some manufactures replace the gas system with a piston-rod type setup. Calibers other than .223 and 5.56 have been offered. Also, even though it's political, I think a discussion of the feature changes manufactures have produced to comply with (bypass depending on your POV) assault weapons laws would also be relevant. Springee (talk) 01:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

in media res

  • Considering there are ongoing discussions about the content and title of this page (and related articles and subjects, including an active RfC that could affect this page), I'm wondering why it is that editors are currently making content changes to this article without even mentioning them here on the talk page first? isn't this the kind of thing that leads to disputes and disruption? Perhaps we should put the content changes on hold until the discussions are done and there is consensus on what should and shouldn't be going into these articles. JMHO - WOLFchild 23:24, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

follow up

I'll post this here, because I already inquired about this, in this section, and I don't to want to split off from any discussion about a specific edit below. Above, Springee asked about "adding content", which was appropriate to ask because the addition of some types of content is currently being disputed. There were several discussions that popped up on firearms related pages, seeking local consensuses, they were closed and directed to the Firearms Project for a central discussion. That location was disputed, so now we're having a RfC at the Village Pump. From what I've seen, there is no consensus there either way, and as of yet it is still open.

Meanwhile, Springee's question here turned into a discussion of rights ownerships, etc. and meanwhile, I noticed that while all this was going on, some editors were adding content anyway. We now have a kind of 'information creep' occurring, while discussions are taking place on whether or not to even add such content and if so, how it should be added. There is now a section here titled "Mass-shootings" that wasn't there a few days ago, and within it, links to three of the deadliest mass-shootings, and a notation of AR-15s being involved in 13 total. Then links to four more shootings were added, making it seven. Now three more links are added, making it ten. (this latest edit is the discussion I mentioned below)

At the same time, significant content is also being removed as "promotional", by editors such as "K.e.Coffman", who have clearly taken a position on this issue, and editors such as "AzureCitizen" are continually adding content, without so much as a peep here on the talk page, knowing full well this content is currently being disputed. Why bother having RfCs? Or Consensus? Or even talk pages, if controversial subjects are just going to be a free-for-all anyway? I think we should slow down on the editing here until some content decisions have been made by the community. Or else there'll just be continuous debates, reverts, mass-changes, etc. The kind of disruption we want to avoid. - WOLFchild 00:36, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Redirects

We still have a lot of errant redirects for general AR-15 related stuff going to specific model AR related articles instead of this one. Can we get a list and start updating all the links so people are not direct to the wrong article? PackMecEng (talk) 14:36, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Some to start with from here:

AR 15
AR-!%
Ar-15
AR-15 Rifle
AR-15 semi-automatic rifle
AR15
AR=15

Would it be okay for me to starting making the changes to those? PackMecEng (talk) 14:39, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Those should all go to Colt AR-15, though maybe some are questionable (do we need AR-1% and AR=15 spelling/shift mistakes?).Icewhiz (talk) 15:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Why would general AR-15 related searches goto a specific model page and not this one? PackMecEng (talk) 15:08, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Because AR-15 refers to a specific gun model. "AR-15 style" encompasses a wide range of guns some of which are not that similar to the AR-15, without the style suffix one would assume one is referring to an actual AR-15 (or very close clone, not a far cousin).Icewhiz (talk) 15:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
I get the idea that "AR-15" is a trademarked name thus anything that is listed as "AR-15" should redirect to the article about the trademarked item. However, if we assume most people are searching for the generic term then we aren't helping when we send them here. Instead I would suggest that the links either go to the generic page (AR-15 already does this) or they go to the disambiguation page. We have already seen what happens when you drive general AR-15 traffic to the AR-15 (TM) page. Springee (talk) 15:38, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
I agree that these should all redirect to AR-15 style rifle to eliminate confusion. Would it be appropriate to narrow the scope of this article to only include rifles that use the same design? –dlthewave ☎ 16:05, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
I would keep this open to AR based designs. So designs where a mfr changed say the gas system or cartridge type would be in scope. Part of what could make this a good article is including variations from the basic design. Basically I would err on the side of inclusion. Springee (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I have created an RFD on these redirects and how this discussion relates to earlier consensus on the redirects, so that this can all be discussed in one place. It can be found at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 February 24#AR-15. Please note that I have no opinion on this issue. Thanks, Dekimasuよ! 21:31, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

RfC notice

An RfC related to this topic has been opened at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Coverage of mass shootings in firearms articles. –dlthewave ☎ 17:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 22 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved, early WP:SNOW close. — JFG 17:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Modern sporting rifle → AR-15 style rifle – see talk discussions and recent moves in log. An editor has requested that the article be renamed. - WOLFchild 02:41, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

  • @Drmies: "Reflect" on what? This "overwhelming support" didn't appear until after I posted the RM. I actually don't care if the page is named either way, (notice I didn't post any opinions or !vote in the straw-poll). I just know that K.e.coffman had no business making a controversial page move (and with such POV-ish reasoning), while discussions were still ongoing, and without support from the community, and as Dennis Brown just pointed out; moving a "name this page has had for years". (And once that page move was contested, he certainly shouldn't have moved it again). It's clear he wasn't going to post an RM like he should have, so I did. There should be an opportunity for the community to discuss this, and a clear consensus formed before any such move, (not a quickly thrown together "consensus" by 4 like-minded and recently involved editors, after the fact). If the move goes thru (and it looks like it will), then hopefully K.e.coffman will "reflect" on his needless page-move-warring and combative POV-attitude, realize that that we have these page move guidelines for a reason, and that this is a community... of more than 4 people. But, I'm pretty sure you already know all this. I think your issue is that you're under the mistaken belief that I want the original name. As long as the name is NPOV, and the community supports it, then I'm fine with it being renamed... properly. Cheers - WOLFchild 18:36, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but the page-move warring is yours: you moved it back, despite the fact that you said you didn't care. You could have just started a conversation without moving it back. There is nothing in our procedures that dictates you have to move it back and then start this. Drmies (talk) 18:47, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
TBH, I thought/hoped the first move would initiate the RM. But that said, I will take your comment under advisement, along with the current environment, recent events, and the overall big picture. Cheers - WOLFchild 23:00, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move to AR-15 style rifle or similar title. This article is clearly about rifles similar to, related to, or derived from the AR-15, and thus "AR-15 style rifle" is a descriptive common name. I've seen conflicting usage of "modern sporting rifle", so perhaps there is a distinction between the two and there could be a separate article with that title. Either way, "AR-15 style rifle" makes more sense as a title for this article as it currently exists. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 16:04, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Seems to me clear consensus for a move, and it should be done. Not one user has objected.Slatersteven (talk) 16:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
    • It's an RM, so it needs to be left open more than two days. It should close in a week. Not everyone edits Misplaced Pages every day, and waiting a few days isn't hurting anyone as it has been under this name for years. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:28, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
AR-15 style rifle redirects here, so if readers are searching on that term they will still find the article. Letting this run for the full week, which is standard procedure at WP:RM for anything not considered a "technical request", helps to build a stronger consensus and avoid later attempts to reverse the move on the basis of a "limited consensus". – wbm1058 (talk) 16:52, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move; AR-15 style rifle is the most popular term for this object. CapitalSasha ~ talk 17:29, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support but I would prefer the title be "AR-15 pattern rifle" since "pattern" vs "style" is the term more often used in my experience. Also, my understanding is Modern Sporting Rifle refers to more than just AR pattern rifles (Sig MCX for example). I would suggest a Modern Sporting Rifle page should still exist once this is settled. Since the page in question is AR-15 specific it should change. Springee (talk) 17:33, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move Modern sporting rifle is obviously an attempt at obfuscation through euphemism. EDIT: The above assessment was made after I was redirected to this page after searching for AR-15 and assumed that this was the title of the page for that specific rifle. I still support the move, but do recognize it's more of a murky issue of terminology than someone just trying to influence opinion. The redirect should be fixed though. Searching for AR-15 should take one to the actual AR-15, with the clear disambiguation disclaimer in place.SweetNeo85 (talk) 21:36, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move Seems a no-brainer, for reasons stated above. -- naught101 (talk) 23:25, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move Although some references use "pattern" instead of style, the vast majority of expert references use the word "style," as in, "AR-15 style rifle." Furthermore, as there are significant variants from the original Colt AR-15, these variants do not follow the tight control indicated by the use of the word "pattern," but rather, the more loose association indicated by the use of the word, "style." By "expert references," I refer to the vast majority of firearms support organizations as well as firearms manufacturers and firearms-centered publications. The overwhelming concensus throughout the firearms community is clear that these should be called, "AR-15 style rifle."Clepsydrae (talk) 00:12, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move "Sporting?"- I guess it is "sporting" when you shoot AR-15 style rifle, however, NOT "sporting" when you get shot by the AR-15 style rifle.---A ri gi bod (talk) 00:51, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move because "AR-15 style rifle" is the most common term. AR-15 is a trademark, so I can see the desire to avoid that term, but "modern sporting rifle" is a category occupied entirely by AR-15-style rifles. However, AR-15 should not redirect here, and this article should have a clearer disambiguation note, such as "This article is about rifles based on the Colt AR-15. For the original rifle, see Colt AR-15. For other uses, see AR-15 (disambiguation)." Roches (talk) 02:28, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support the current title is very POV and inaccurate. I only found this page by accident. Legacypac (talk) 04:38, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move Professional and technical literature about AR-15 style rifles, as well as popular magazines for gun hobbyists, almost always use the terms "AR-15 style rifle" if they are being precise with their language. They will sometimes say things like "an AR-15 rifle made by Daniel Defense", which is not entirely accurate but is nonetheless common in casual writing or conversation. The term "modern sporting rifle" is politically-motivated and purposefully unclear. The term "modern sporting rifle" is also not very common, which in and of itself should disqualify it from being the title for a Misplaced Pages article for a type of rifle with a far more common name. Fluoborate (talk) 12:29, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:33, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support, AR-15 is what they're commonly known as. "Obfuscation through euphemism", as above, is a particularly apt description. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:55, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
  • support move. (1) Unquestionably the term "modern sporting rifle" to most people would never suggest an AR-15. (2) The AR-15 type is a specific type; it is not a general category as the name "modern sporting rifle" suggests. (3) Many people would argue that the AR-15 type is not sporting at all because it's too much like using a cannon on the prey; I don't wish to take sides but only to indicate how dubious "sporting" is as a name. Zaslav (talk) 00:56, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support - AR-15 is the COMMONNAME here and so should be moved, –Davey2010 01:07, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Support move: basically just what everyone else has been saying. "Modern sporting rifle" is clearly not an unbiased title, and AR-15 is definitely the common name. Iamextremelygayokay (talk) 05:00, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Didn't notice that the article is move-protected. @Amakuru, MelanieN, NeilN, Oshwah, and TonyBallioni: Can a kindly admin do the deed? — JFG 17:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:08, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Orlando Shooting

I reverted this edit, but it was reverted back without discussion. According to , "Omar Mateen, 29, used an AR-15 style rifle (a Sig Sauer MCX), and a 9mm Glock semi-automatic pistol to kill 49 people and injure 50 at an Orlando nightclub before he was killed". Additionally, the Sig Sauer MCX is one of the models listed in this article. –dlthewave ☎ 04:42, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

The Sig MCX is not an AR-15 pattern rifle. It uses a different operating mechanism and isn't based on the AR-15 design. USA Today simply got it wrong. That said, in my opinion (but not based on the definition in this article) the MCX is a "Modern Sporting Rifle". But this article is almost certainly going to be renamed (again) to "AR-15 style rifle" and the current content is, based on the talk page, meant to only refer to AR-15 pattern rifles. Springee (talk) 04:52, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
Can you provide an RS for that? A Washington Post article was mentioned in an edit summary. –dlthewave ☎ 05:00, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
I would suggest you look into the matter a bit more. The confusion came about because it was originally reported to be an "AR-15" type rifle. While I would agree the MCX is in many ways similar, I don't think you will find an actual firearms expert who would call it an AR-15 style rifle. Here is an article about that issue as it relates to the Orlando shooting. ]. Springee (talk) 05:07, 23 February 2018 (UTC)
The MCX is a different gun. When this article title is changed, any mention of it or any other non-AR-15 pattern rifle will have to be removed. There should be no mention of the AR-15 in any articles related to the Orlando shooting and vice-versa, there should be no mention of the Orlando shooting in any articles about the AR-15. Adding or changing content based on what is now known to be a factual error by a media outlet would be irresponsible. The Orlando shooter didn't use an AR-15, just like he didn't use an AK-47. Or a Bazooka. - WOLFchild 12:17, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

"AR-15" redirect

Should "AR-15" redirect to AR-15 style rifle, to Colt AR-15, to AR-15 (disambiguation), or what? That's the topic, over at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2018 February 24#AR-15. Interested editors are encouraged to join the discussion there. — Mudwater 23:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Mass shootings

@Thewolfchild: Regarding your revert here, what are the WEIGHT problems with my edit? Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 22:57, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Interjecting and not wanting to derail the discussion that the two of you may have but I really wish that people would quit adding Umpqua Community College shooting because no AR-15 clone was used at all. He had one but never fired it so please stop saying that it was "used" in that shooting as that is inaccurate.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:29, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @AzureCitizen: Well, aside that the fact that edit had already been removed once by Springee, this is the type of content that is now being discussed at an RfC at Village Pump, as well as on other pages, with a new debate popping up on different pages seemingly every day, (despite the RfC @ VP). I was under the impression that no consensus has been formed yet in support of adding more of this content (unless I missed something). It's already noted as being used in mass-shootings, and at one point, there were links to three of the deadliest, which I thought was sufficient, but now there's seven and you want add another three. Do we really need such a lengthy list in that section? Will we keep adding more and more mass-shootings as they occur? It just seems a bit too much, and that's what I mean by "weight". But, if consensus supports that addition of all those other mass-shootings, then so be it. I'm not trying to hide the fact that AR-15s are used in mass-shootings, just keep a balance with the rest of the article.
Perhaps we should decide on a set number for now and stick to it. Then revisit again is say... six months. I would support the three that were originally there. But I'm sure others would feel different. - WOLFchild 23:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC)
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