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Revision as of 21:00, 24 October 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Section Headings Added, Disputed

I added Section headings and regrouped material under those, adding minority references. These were reverted several times without discussion. I have moved the section headings and proposed material here for duscussion to obtain concensus.DLH 20:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Added summary of Sternberg's perspective. Corrected misstatement on societies position regarding peer review and gave a quote of one of the stated reasons. Regrouped material. Added Category:Intelligent design Added quote by Sternberg on the actual peer review process and results with link. DLH 03:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Added summary quote by Sternberg on peer review. DLH 03:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Added headings to clarify the discussion. Reordered & regrouped to clarify. Added contrasting references, links.DLH 17:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

FeloniusMonk Please address concerns in Discussion, rather than bulk revert numerous edits, additions, categories etc. What objection is there toadding categories? What to adding counterbalancing comments from Sternberg? DLH 18:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I've had to revert this. Your regrouping and placements, as well as your new section headings, were obviously POV because they imparted undue weight to Sternberg's viewpoint. Your changes implied a parity between the two opinions, Sternberg's and his employer, the journal's publishers. There isn't. Sternberg's position is only supported by his opinion and interpretations of things like what constitutes proper peer review, etc. Whereas the publisher's position is supported by their own long-standing policies long unchallenged by the greater scientific community. Also, Sternberg's claims in his statement are not particularly credible since none of his allegations have been ultimately upheld by any of the third parties he's turned to.

This is a simple matter of the article needing to represent the majority and minority viewpoints in their proper proportion, per WP:NPOV. Sternberg's viewpoint being the minority clearly while the publisher's, speaking as part of the scientific community, is the majority. FeloniousMonk 19:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is that BOTH majority and minority viewpoints are presented.

I have tried to add categories to highlight the discussion. I have added statements and further references. I put alot of effort into adding minority view. Just because you advocate majority view does not mean you can censor all minority additions.DLH 19:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Just because you advocate minority view does not mean you can ignore WP:NPOV, WP:CONSENSUS and WP:POINT. You need to develop a better understanding of Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight before you're able to lecture long-term contributors on NPOV here. Edit warring under the guise of "restoring for discussion" is not how it works here. Contested content is removed to the talk page for discussion. Either play by wikipedia's rules or set up an account at creationwiki. FeloniousMonk 19:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Ten next time please move the sections you content to the talk page and ask for discussion, rather than just reverting major additions several times without discussion.DLH 20:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Outside Peer reviewed?

The proposed change is to add this subheading and change the section to the following:

Sternberg insists the paper was properly peer reviewed, and rejects the journal's allegations for disavowing the article. Sternberg further claimed to have followed the standard practice for peer review:

. . .Three reviewers responded and were willing to review the paper; all are experts in relevant aspects of evolutionary and molecular biology and hold full-time faculty positions in major research institutions, one at an Ivy League university, another at a major North American public university, a third on a well-known overseas research faculty. There was substantial feedback from reviewers to the author, resulting in significant changes to the paper. The reviewers did not necessarily agree with Dr. Meyer's arguments or his conclusion but all found the paper meritorious and concluded that it warranted publication. . . . four well-qualified biologists with five PhDs in relevant disciplines were of the professional opinion that the paper was worthy of publication. . . .

Critics claim Sternberg's statement directly contradicts those of his former employer, the publisher of the journal, that proper review procedures were not followed resulting in the article's retraction.. Sternberg responds:

Subsequently, after the controversy arose, Dr. Roy McDiarmid, President of the Council of the BSW, reviewed the peer-review file and concluded that all was in order. As Dr. McDiarmid informed me in an email message on August 25th, 2004, "Finally, I got the reviews and agree that they are in support of your decision ."

What is inaccurate about these citations? If you have further references, please add them. DLH 19:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Critics claim the paper was not peer reviewed. A careful examination of statements by the Journal and Sternberg indicate that it received 3 outside peer reviews plus Sternbergs. Sternberg cites the President of the Journal affirming that. The Journal's statement does not dispute that. The ? after the category is to indicate the controversy? What disputeis there over these statements?DLH 19:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You're drawing an unsupported conclusion from a highly tendentious reading of the facts. The article was withdrawn by the publisher. The publiser says the article circumvented established peer review procedures. Meaning that any peer review Sternberg claims it underwent was rejected by the publisher. That's The article was withdrawn by the publisher, and why you're unable to keep your personal POV out of this article. FeloniousMonk 19:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This section explicitly addresses whether external peer reviews were obtained. The president of BSW affirms that. The Next section addresses the "typical practice" issue of Associate Editor vs Editor himself editing it. If you can find any statements that by the Journal or Sternberg to the effect that the three outside peer reviews were not obtained, then please post them as contrary views. Until then, these are cited references with summary statements. I will change the title to "OUTSIDE Peer Review?"DLH 19:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review by buddy-selected cronies is not peer review. The only question here is whether the "peer view" Sternberg claims was performed was valid. The publisher says it wasn't and went so far to retract the paper. That Sternberg claims otherwise and rejects the publishers actions and statement is a non sequitur and a sidenote at most (already in the article), and certainly not a reason for wikipedia's article here to imply that the withdrawn article "may" be peer reviewed, which is what you're arguing for here. FeloniousMonk 19:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The BSW President is cited as affirming that outside reviewers were proper and supported Sternberg's choice to publish. That is referenced to a published source. Careful examination of the Journal's statement shows that it does not dispute this. The Society statement addresses the "typical practice" of assigning to an Assistant reviewer. If you disput that, please point to a reference to support it and add that reference. Wiki policy is to assume good faith and to give references.DLH 20:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

So say's Sternberg. Do you have a credible, neutral citation for that? The only cite you've provided is to his crank site. We need to be circumspect here because so far none, not one, of Sternberg's allegations have held up or produced results, and the withdrawl of the Meyers article from the journal remains in effect, meaning there remain no pro-ID peer reviewed articles published in the scientific press. FeloniousMonk 20:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Your allegation that Sternberg selected "buddy-selected cronies" is a serious charge of professional misconduct. Is that an effort at "assuming good faith"? Sternberg cites the BSW president that the outside reviews were proper. IF you can find a statement from the BSW president disputing that citation, then please add it to show majority/minority positions. The BSW statement does not address the outside peer reviewers. Sternberg has conducted himself as a professional editor upholding the confidentiality of the reviewers. Until those reviewers agree to publish their identities, your allegation needs to be substantiated or withdrawn. Having worked to obtain serious peer review in another field, that is a serious charge that undermines the peer review process by ad hominem attacks if not substantiated. IF you read the BSW statement carefully, it addressed the issue of Sternberg's choosing to edit the paper rather than assign it to an associate editor. It does not address the outside reviewers.DLH 20:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly why his employer had to very publicly say "was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings" and withdraw the paper... Please. Stepping outside the "typical editorial practices" to see a paper published of a fellow traveler that you knew would stand no other chance strikes me as the very definition of professional misconduct. Especially damning when done on your way out the door for good. FeloniousMonk 20:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Publisher vs Editor

If you dispute this section please discuss.DLH 19:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, no. That's not how wikipedia works. You've got it exactly backwards. I you want to change long-standing content that enjoys broad consensus, then you need to make your case for it here, not the other way around. FeloniousMonk 19:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That is surprising seeing that there was NO discussion until I added discussion. I do not see how it can have "broad consensus" with no discussion. It may have not been critically reviewed.DLH 19:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Because since most of us are capable of following WP:NPOV#pseudoscience and WP:NPOV#Undue weight that there is unwritten consensus. It only gets discussed when someone gets upset that their m:MPOV isn't being represented. — Dunc|☺ 20:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

DLH has a point. If there was no discussion, on what grounds can Felonious say there was "braod consensus"? Call me a WP:V junkie, but that sort of verification is just the kind of thing I like--if only because a number of times I have seen Felonious appeal to a "consensus" but when I requested he provide evidence of said consensus, he refused (e.g. here).

Proposed section: This addresses the heart of the controversy Between the Journal and Sternberg over Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor. Propose titling this as "Publisher's Review Policies" as an objective statement of the section. Moved Sternberg comments from Outside Review to this section.

There is something that bothers me here. The Misplaced Pages entry says that, "proper review procedures were not followed" but the cited link associated to it only says that "Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process." There is a difference between "typical" and "proper." Sternberg says, "...I took direct editorial responsibility for the paper. As discussed above, the Council of the BSW had given me, the managing editor, the discretion to decide how a paper was to be reviewed and edited as well as the final decision on whether it would be published." This seems to suggest that that Sternberg followed proper procedure regarding his decision on how the peer-review process would happen, even if most peer-reviewed articles are not done this way. I suggest modifying "proper" to "typical" until we have a cited source from the publisher actually contains the "proper" claim (the cited source doesn't actually claim he violated the publisher's peer-review policy). --Wade A. Tisthammer 20:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Typical" - that it be handled by an associate editor. "Proper" - that it be reviewed at all. There is no evidence that the paper was actually reviewed (he is unable to produce the "four biologists" or their reviews). So it's more than "atypical" (not handled by an associate editor) it's improper (not peer reviewed). Guettarda 20:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Publisher's Review Policies

On 7 September, the publisher of the journal, the Council of the Biological Society of Washington, released a statement repudiating the article:

The paper by Stephen C. Meyer, "The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories," in vol. 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239 of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, was published at the discretion of the former editor, Richard v. Sternberg. Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process. The Council, which includes officers, elected councilors, and past presidents, and the associate editors would have deemed the paper inappropriate for the pages of the Proceedings because the subject matter represents such a significant departure from the nearly purely systematic content for which this journal has been known throughout its 122-year history.

The same statement vowed that proper review procedures would be followed in the future and endorsed a resolution published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science, which claims that there is no credible scientific evidence supporting intelligent design. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2005/02/title_4.html

As managing editor, Sternberg states he chose to administer the review himself as the most qualified editor in his opinion (having two PhD's in evolutionary biology), rather than involving an associate editor. He claimed to have also checked with a Council member. , DLH 20:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

There is something that bothers me here. The Misplaced Pages entry says that, "proper review procedures were not followed" but the cited link associated to it only says that "Contrary to typical editorial practices, the paper was published without review by any associate editor; Sternberg handled the entire review process." There is a difference between "typical" and "proper." Sternberg says, "...I took direct editorial responsibility for the paper. As discussed above, the Council of the BSW had given me, the managing editor, the discretion to decide how a paper was to be reviewed and edited as well as the final decision on whether it would be published." This seems to suggest that that Sternberg followed proper procedure regarding his decision on how the peer-review process would happen, even if most peer-reviewed articles are not done this way. I suggest modifying "proper" to "typical" until we have a cited source from the publisher actually contains the "proper" claim (the cited source doesn't actually claim he violated the publisher's peer-review policy). --Wade A. Tisthammer 20:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

"Contrary to typical editorial practices..." It's clear that the Council of the Biological Society of Washington determined that Sternberg stepped outside 'proper' procedure. FeloniousMonk 21:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Critics vs Supporters

In a review of the article Alan Gishlick, Nick Matzke, and Wesley R. Elsberry claimed it contained poor scholarship, that it failed to cite and specifically rebut the actual data supporting evolution, and "constructed a rhetorical edifice out of omission of relevant facts, selective quoting, bad analogies, knocking down straw men, and tendentious interpretations." Further examination of the article revealed that it was substantially similar to previously published articles. Supporters counter the arguments, claiming ad hominem attacks. Setting the Record Straight on Sternberg

Propose grouping material in the following section, including Sternberg's statement on his own position.

Structuralism vs Barminology

Sternberg describes himself as a process structuralist ahistorical, systems-oriented, and non-evolutionary (not anti-evolutionary). Dr. Todd Charles Wood of the Baraminology Study Group describe's Sternberg's skepticism about young earth creationism, but willingness to critique it. Critics of Meyer's paper believe that Sternberg himself was biased in the matter. In 2002, Sternberg presented a lecture on intelligent design at a conference closed to all but intelligent design advocates. Sternberg is also a member of the editorial board of the Baraminology Study Group, an organization with a creationist agenda. These critiques can be considered ad hominem attacks by association. The Baraminology Study Group's official position is that Sternberg is not a creationist and acts primarily as a skeptical reviewer . DLH 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"These critiques can be considered ad hominem attacks by association." That's spoon-feeding the reader a particular POV while retroactively trying to poison the well. Even presenting it as an attributed quote is questionable, since it adds nothing but a peripheral viewpoint to narrowly focused article. Whatever terms Sternberg describes himself are beside the point, which is that he's a ID proponent and so had a dog in the race when he decided to step outside the typical editorial practices to see a paper of a fellow traveler published that he knew would stand no chance otherwise. "Sternberg describes himself as a process structuralist ahistorical, systems-oriented, and non-evolutionary (not anti-evolutionary)" is a complete non sequitur here. FeloniousMonk 21:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Propose grouping material on the distrimination issues at Smithsonian Institute in the following section:

Descrimination Charges

As part of a subsequent labor claim, Sternberg claims that he was "targeted for retaliation and harassment" and cites a letter by the United States Office of Special Counsel as supporting his version of events . Pim Van Meurs and other critics have called into question this claim, asserting that the Office of Special Counsel lacked jurisdiction over the matter, that the Smithsonian was never given a chance to respond, and that no official findings or conclusions were made by the Office of Special Counsel.

In August, 2005 the Office of Special Counsel dropped Sternberg's religious discrimination complaint against the Smithsonian Institution. It was determined that as an unpaid research associate at the Smithsonian, Sternberg was not actually an employee, and thus the Office of Special Counsel had no jurisdiction.

Critics have suggested that the Office of Special Counsel itself was biased in its initial handling of the matter, given the links between the religious right and the Republican Party, with George W. Bush appointee James McVay authoring its opinion. DLH 20:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Added following section

Notes and references

1. Summary of key points regarding publication of the Meyer paper
2. Sternberg Summary Key Points
4. http://www.rsternberg.net/Structuralism.htm
5. http://www.rsternberg.net/BSG.htm Letter from the Baraminology Study Group August 26, 2004
6. http://www.idthefuture.com/2005/12/get_busy_livin_or_get_busy_sme.html

Swamping the talk page

Apparently DLH thinks established contributors here have nothing better to do, like actually contributing to the encyclopedia, than to respond to a laundry list of objections and proposals. Most of which are tendentious; twisting the facts to present the possibility that a pro-ID was peer reviewed (never mind that saying something was peer reviewed implies that it was published).

Considering this method, endorsed by 9 out of 10 trolls and pov pushers at other ID related articles, I'm inclined to move any discussion of additional issues to a subpage to minimize the disruption of this page. Any thought or comments from other long term contributors? FeloniousMonk 20:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

There had been NO discussion at all until I initiated this page noting my changes. After several reverts of major editing efforts I moved the sections here for discussion. Please address. I'll come back after several days.DLH 20:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

That's because the article is accurate, well-supported. It's only when an ID proponent showed up trying to spin the facts to imply that there was a properly peer reviewed ID article when there wasn't that discussion became necessary. The fact remains there is no properly peer reviewed ID article in the scientific press, and all personal objections and statements of all of this movement's Sternbergs do not change that fact. Unless you have some actual new, credible and neutral evidence for us to consider here, there's very little here to discuss. You've brought us nothing new. FeloniousMonk 20:50, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

DLH's proposed changes to content & structure

Here is DLH's proposed article structure and section titles:

1. Meyer's Paper Published/Withdrawn
2. Outside Peer reviewed?
3. Publisher vs Editor
4. Critics vs Supporters
5. Structuralism vs Barminology
6. Descrimination Charges
7. Notes and references

There are NPOV issues with his section titles. They violate WP:NPOV by imparting undue weight to Sternberg's viewpoint, placing it on par with that of his employer, when it isn't. DLH's choice of verbiage here couchs the controversy in terms favorable to Sternberg and the ID crowd as well.

So, starting with the section Meyer's Paper Published/Withdrawn an obvious issue is that DLH uses rhetoric like "Following a firestorm of protest" then in the next section Outside Peer reviewed? jumps right into Sternberg's rebuttal of his employer's withdrawl of the article before even allowing the reader to see the publishers statement Sternberg is rebutting! DLH also wrongly implies in the section title "Outside Peer reviewed?" that there may indeed be a properly peer reviewed ID paper; a specific goal of the ID movement since its inception. The impetus for the controversy this article describes is that there are none, so I see no reason to help them by implying that there are here. Next, in Publisher vs Editor DLH finally presents the publishers statement that that Sternberg rejects; getting the order backward.

In the Critics vs Supporters section DLH favors Sternberg supporters by making a link to their writings an actual spelled out part of the content, "Setting the Record Straight on Sternberg", not a footnote or external link as he does for critics. In Structuralism vs Barminology DLH's use of an editorial aside, "These critiques can be considered ad hominem attacks by association," spoon-feeds the reader a particular POV while retroactively poisoning the well. It adds nothing but a peripheral viewpoint to narrowly focused article. "Sternberg describes himself as a process structuralist ahistorical, systems-oriented, and non-evolutionary (not anti-evolutionary)" is a complete non sequitur and beside the point. The point is that Sternberg is a ID proponent and so had a dog in the race when he decided to step outside the typical editorial practices to see a paper of a fellow traveler published that he knew would stand no chance otherwise.

Descrimination Charges, aside from misspelling discrimination, isn't so bad since DLH more or less used the existing content. Notes and references balance problems arise when DLH favors pro-Sternberg cites with full descriptions instead of the conventional footnote style cites I've seen him do elsewhere.

That covers my initial objections quickly looking over DLH's proposals. FeloniousMonk 22:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

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