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India: Jammu and Kashmir B‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Misplaced Pages's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Jammu and Kashmir (assessed as High-importance). This article was last assessed in September 2016.

Sources

Comments on the current version.

For events that happened in 1947, we need to use historically reliable sources. At a minimum, they must be scholarly sources. Other sources, if they are valuable and appear reliable, can be described with WP:in-text attribution.

• Saeed Naqvi's book is copy-righted by author and the publisher disclaimed responsibility for accuracy. So it must be used with extreme caution.
• The passage quotes Horace Alexander's news report from 1947 with in-text attribution. It is not proper to state it as fact. Moreover, the report says 2,37,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border. So this figure includes both the Muslims that got killed as well as those that migrated.

As I have remarked here, there were 700,000 Muslims in the Indian-administered portion of the Jammu province. So it is theoretically impossible for 237,000 Muslims to have died and another 300,000 to havae migrated, and still retain 33.5% of the population in India.

I am going to replace all this folklore content by reliably sourced figures. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:53, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Census analysis

@Vamsee614: I have removed your personal analysis of the census data. In the first place, you are not allowed to present your own interpretation of the WP:PRIMARY source data. Secondly, your analysis is faulty. The 1941 census and the 1961 census measure different geographical areas, the entire Jammu province in case of 1941 and the Indian-controlled region in case of 1961. You can't compare them.

On another note, Christopher Snedden states (the cited book, p. 50), that the total number of Muslims in the Hindu-majority districts of the Jammu province (Jammu, Kathua, Udhampur and Chenani) was 346,000. It is theoretically impossible for 200,000 Muslims to have been 'massacred' and another 300,000 to have migrated. There are wild exaggerations all over the place. Please use reliable sources, and avoid propaganda and half-baked reports. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Kautilya for your appreciation and guidance. I think majority of the citations listed out in the references section of the article https://en.wikipedia.org/1947_Jammu_massacres particularly qualify as reliable and neutral sources and I have studied them thoroughly. However I will surely further research on the content and try to develop it. I would like you to kindly elaborate what you meant by historically reliable sources, which as you mean are lacking currently. And I'm sorry for spreading out any half-baked information to other pages. I sincerely apologize. I'm still new to editing in Misplaced Pages and will refrain from doing anything as such in the future. Anyhow I'm not trying to sensationalize the incident as you have opined, I'm fully aware of the sensitiveness involved in the content and so I'm being much careful and absolutely neutral. After all its a 60-year old event doesn't mean it can be conveniently ignored, its occurrence had deep impact in the origins of the Kashmir conflict. My only intent is to bring this historically significant and event to readers knowledge despite being covered up due to political censorship as I can see. Apparently there are very few reports in the media or the historical accounts in India regarding such a mass killing which has been highly consequential. Despite having so many repercussions, it is quite seldom mentioned in any of the discussions about the concerned phases in our history. Therefore I feel that it is to be elaborated and given its due importance in the history, at least by simply acknowledging and stating that it occurred so, and by making people just aware of its occurrence to enhance their knowledge. I believe it is one of the fundamental mottos of Misplaced Pages. Thank you once again for the help and please continue to provide support with your valuable suggestions, if you may. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vamsee614 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi Vamsee, yes it is an important event and it needs to be documented, but we don't do anybody any service by putting up random propaganda materials on Misplaced Pages. As I have pointed out on the article talk page, the numbers that are often thrown around are theoretically impossible. Chattha's thesis is a good source, and Christopher Snedden's book is an excellent source. You need to read them thoroughly, not just take little bits and pieces.

• We also need to make it clear that the violence in Jammu was an extension of the partition violence in Punjab and NWFP. It didn't come out of the blue. All said and done, Jammu still has 33.5% population Muslim (and Poonch is still 90% Muslim), which is infinitely better than what the neighbouring Punjab has managed.
• And, you can't take any British source as being neutral and third-party. The British were up to their necks in both India and Pakistan and various individuals bought into their stories. So, we can't just narrate what the sources say, but we also need to dig into what kind of a source it is, where the information is coming from (read the footnotes).
• We have reasonably good information that at least 70,000 were killed (Snedden's book, page 53, table 2.2). That is about the only thing I am certain of. The Pakistanis claim that another 200,000 migrated to West Punjab. But 270,000 is already too high a figure. There weren't enough Muslims in the Hindu-majority districts of Jammu to give such a high figure.
• The timing also needs to be studied carefully. The earliest 'massacre' in Table 2.2 occurred on 20 October. In contrast, Liaquat Ali Khan ordered the invasion on 12 September, more than a month earlier. (See the Timeline of the Kashmir conflict). Any suggestion that the massacres were the reason for the invasion is plain false. It is propaganda.
• It is also not clear that the Muslims started migrating because of the massacres. The first exodus of Muslims was reported on the 26 September. (Again, see the Timeline.) By then the Maharaja had appointed Mehr Chand Mahajan as the Prime Minister and he was telling New Delhi that he was willing to accede to India. That is reason enough for pro-Pakistan Muslims to migrate.

You need to read the policy pages WP:NPOV etc. to get an idea of how to approach a subject like this. Even though the topic needs to be documented, the frantic piece at which you started pushing unreliable and half-baked information to tons of pages was a serious problem. For all historical content, you need to use WP:HISTRS. Saeed Naqvi, for example, does not qualify. Both Chattha and Snedden are fine. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:17, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

@Vamsee614: After comparing the figures from the 1941 census and the 2011 census, I think the figure of 237,000 is believable, provided it is understood as the number killed plus the number migrated. The author of the The Times report is apparently a partisan, which explains the sensational wording. The number I get from the comparison is 192,000 which is likely to be an underestimate due to the variability in the population growth rates. However, there were no additional 200,000–300,000 that are supposed to have migrated. The 237,000 figure represents the total loss. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:57, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

"The removal of the Muslim population in Jammu region is evidenced clearly in the 1961 Census of India. In Jammu province, about 123 villages were ‘completely depopulated’, while the decrease in the number of Muslims in Jammu district alone was over 100,000.(59) It is possible to point out that the inter-religious violence that occurred in Jammu included a possible ‘genocide’ of Muslims in September-October 1947. The Maharaja of the Dogra Hindu state was complicit in the targeted violence against Kashmiri Muslims. Out of a total of 800,000 who tried to migrate, more than 237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated by all the forces of the Dogra State, headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs.(60) There is evidence of similar behaviour in other Princely States. A police report pointed out that over 250,000 Muslims alone were missing in the Sikh state of Patiala.(61)

--- Pg 184, Partition and Its Aftermath: Violence, Migration and the Role of Refugees in the Socio-Economic Development of Gujranwala and Sialkot Cities, 1947-1961 by Ilyas Ahmad Chattha.

you don't find this reasonable?

Vamsee614 (talk) 19:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. I have seen this stuff on web sites. It didn't occur to me to go look for it in Chattha's thesis. I am surprised that he was allowed to put it in as it is. This is bad. But note that this is one source among many. WP:NPOV tells you to study all the sources and include what represents the scholarly consensus. I am afraid Chattha is mixing fact with fiction.

• Let us interrogate the key figure: the number of Muslims killed. He says 237,000 were killed, and ignores the escape clause that appeared in The Times article: unless they escaped to Pakistan. Where is Chattha accounting for the people that escaped? We have a reliable analysis that appeared in Dawn in 1950 or so, that said that 200,000 refugees arrived from J&K in September-November. If so, that would leave only 37,000 unaccounted for. (I am not taking the Dawn figures at face value either, but that is the analysis and reconciliation that Chattha has failed to do. Snedden does it.)
• Where did the figure of 800,000 come from? That appears to be the total number of Muslims in the Indian-controlled Jammu province, chopping off the Poonch district into half. But Poonch was under the control of rebels throughout 1947, except for a garrison stuck in the fortified Poonch town. Were Muslims trying to migrate from their own territory? What about Rajouri, where the Muslims made up 68% of the population (or higher)? Were they trying to migrate from there too? If so, why didn't they? Bhimber is only a short hop away.
• He cites the The Times article for both the figures. But, Snedden, reading the same article says that 411,000 Muslims were vulnerable. No mention of whether they were trying to "migrate". Chattha mentions this figure at the bottom of page 180 (of the thesis), but ignores it. This is substandard.
• Chattha tells us that over 100,000 Muslims decreased in the "Jammu district alone". He is correct there. My calculations indicate that about 140,000 Muslims disappeared from the Jammu district. But what about the other districts? He is citing the 1961 census. So he knows the picture for all the districts. Why not tell us? By saying "Jammu district alone", he is trying to imply that things were equally bad in all the other places. But they weren't.
• Our sources also tell us stuff like this: To a limited extent threatening statements against the Kashmir Government issued on Radio Pakistan by Musim leaders who had migrated to Pakistan also added fuel to the fire. “Every time one of these leaders issued a sharp statement from Pakistan radio, firing on Muslim neighbourhood intensified.” The so-called "Muslim leaders" were the Muslim Conference leaders, to whom the Jammu Muslims subscribed. The Muslim Conference leaders were waging a war on the State, ignoring the fact that they had "hostages" inside. The conflict was also political, not purely communal.

If you don't have access to the Snedden artices/books, I suggest that you read at least the Kashmir Life article. It is not ideal, but it will at least give you some breadth that you are currently lacking. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:04, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

By the way, I also tried to find out if Chattha has anything to say about the fate of non-Muslims in Mirpur and Poonch, but I couldn't. Perhaps you can dig into that. 20% of the Mirpur population was non-Muslim and 10% of Poonch jagir was non-Muslim. There were massacres there too. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:20, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

References

1. Ahmad, Khalid Bashir (5 November 2014), "circa 1947: A Long Story", Kashmir Life, retrieved 11 October 2016

Estimate of number of Jammu Muslims killed

@Kautilya3: "If we presume that the first figure of 333,964 included the roughly 100,000 East Punjab refugees safely escorted by Jammu and Kashmir on their way to Pakistan in 1947, we can estimate the number of Jammu Muslims killed to be a few tens of thousands." - isn't this line WP:OR? Also we are taking too many figures (our census estimate of 'lost Muslims', counted figure of refugees in Pakistan & the Scott's refugee figure of 'at least 100,000 Muslims from East Punjab') at face value in this. This is just a doubt. Thank you. — Vamsee614 (talk) 08:49, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

That is an arguable point. If you are concerned about it, we will need to get wider opinion about it. See WP:SYNTHNOT, which explains what forms of synthesis are allowed and what are not. In my interpretation, drawing a conclusion implied by the sources is allowed. I think people will differ on whether it is implied or not.

Logically, the if...then... statement, which premises a conclusion on assumptions, is a valid consequence from the sourced data. But I admit that not all readers of the English language understand the if...then... statement in such a precise way. I can try rewording it, with some amount of backup from Snedden, who makes similar arguments.

Are we taking the figures at face value? I don't think so. My "few tons of thousands" is quite a vague estimate. Its purpose is to say "hundreds of thousands" is impossible (which is what most sources report, unfortunately).

Note that 333,964 is the lowest figure reported for refugees in Pakistan. Others go up to a million. The 100,000 is evidently a rough estimate. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:03, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I tried the rewording and did a few more additions in my edits. Review them if you have time. — Vamsee614 (talk) 04:58, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

unfair reediting

can vamsee614 tell me why my edit is deleted? he has to explain how a hindu traitor gandhi's comments are needed in this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saffron Army (talk • contribs) 07:55, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Because the edit was against the policies of Misplaced Pages. Please read WP:REL, WP:ROC and WP:NPOV thoroughly. Regarding Gandhi, I will only say that it is a fallacious argument. — Vamsee614 (talk) 13:46, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

bullshit. why are you giving rules for everything? do you know that wikipedia is not all about rules? we should not follow rules strictly in wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:The_rules_are_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules gandhi was a pervert who used to sleep with young naked girls in his bed during his old age. he and his words deserves no respect from anyone. it has proof in wikipedia only. https://en.wikipedia.org/Mahatma_Gandhi#Brahmacharya.2C_celibacy now say? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saffron Army (talk • contribs) 14:04, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Dear friend, please calm down and take a chill pill. There are reasonable standards that tell us when we can use WP:IAR and when we cannot. It must be used with commonsense to make a positive change in Misplaced Pages. I hope this page will help you. Since, I'm also a newbie in here and I'm not thorough with more technicalities & policies of Misplaced Pages, I'm pinging @Kautilya3:, my senior and mentor, to say a word and help you on this matter.

Regarding Gandhi, I know that he went crazy in that aspect of his personal life. But that has got nothing to do with his statesmanship and with what you have accused him of. So cool. Having said that, this is not a talk page related to Gandhi article and we're not supposed to discuss it here. So I'm ending it there. If you wish to discuss with me about that or any other subject, you can ping me on my talk page and I'll reply when I'm available. Strictly speaking, we're not allowed to discuss in such manner even there because any Misplaced Pages talk page cannot be used as a forum. But since editors of Misplaced Pages do not get any reward for their contributions except pleasure and knowledge, I believe that editors can learn through discussions and sharing views in user talk pages, which will further contribute for a better Misplaced Pages. So I'll ignore this rule for you, as I think doing so will help in improving and maintaining Misplaced Pages, as the policy states.

With that, I'll take a leave here. Have a nice day. :-) — Vamsee614 (talk) 16:12, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Gandhi is a notable person, regarded as the father of the nation. His opinions are valued, and cited by scholars. So do we. I think that is all there is to be said. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I saw your talk pages. I understand you two already are friends connected by your pseudo liberal and anti national ideology. you are abusing army. you are threat to the nation. no matter how much you cry kashmir is an integral part of india. no power on earth can change that. one day army will take pok also. kautliya3 gandhi is the father of partition. he is not the father of india. he is the father of pakistan. he is a hindu traitor who broke great akhand bharat. all people know that. vamsee614 who wants to discuss with idiots like you? people like you are meant to be slammed not discussed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saffron Army (talk • contribs) 08:07, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Sources unreliable

Scholar Ilyas Chattha ? How can be called a Scholar or a expert in the subject.He has done his PHD only in 2009 in the Universities of Warwick and Southampton, Dr Ilyas Chattha obtained a PhD in 2009 .Now there are thousands who have done there PHD all of them cannot be called a scholar.He was only a Lecturer not even a Professor. 182.65.169.12 (talk) 23:03, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

See the policy on Reliable sources. Is there particular content that you are objecting to? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:13, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

FEW TENS OF THOUSANDS

someone please cite the source which gave this analysis. I didn't see that in any book. if it is not from a good source, it is someone's self synthesis(https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:What_SYNTH_is_not#SYNTH_is_not_useless) and has to be properly modified for better reliability. regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:6202:1C6A:2DFB:3BBB:120F:F39 (talk) 15:16, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

"To get a rough idea, if we assume that the first figure of 333,964 included the approximately 100,000 East Punjab refugees, we can estimate the number of Jammu Muslims killed to be a few tens of thousands." I was mentioning about this sentence. regards.

There is already a discussion regarding this in this talk page. You might want to have a look at it.

Coming to the issue, its not written from any source. I understand your concern. But it was inserted to convey that 200,000+ Muslims killed, as indicated by many propagandist sources, is an exaggerated and technically impossible estimate. So the part "To get a rough idea" was added. Also it is not own synthesis, since we did not mention any figure. "a few tens of thousands" is a very vague wording. However if you can suggest a better modification for the sentence that sounds more appropriate, please feel free to do so. Thanks.

By the way, since you also seem to have some idea on Misplaced Pages policies, you might be pleased to create a profile with a username and start editing, instead of using your IP. Cheers! — Vamsee614 (talk) 15:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

IP, the essay you have quotes states, To avoid this sort of error, we need a reliable source who has made the same inference, rather than having editors bring together disparate pieces of information themselves. This helps provide a clear solution to many content disputes.. A scholarly reference that makes the same kind of calculation (Copland) has been cited. So, your objection doesn't hold any water. However, Copland noted that the result is a surplus rather than a deficit, which doesn't make sense. Copland did not suspect that the Pakistani refugee figure could have included East Punjabi refugees that went through Jammu (said to be 100,000). If we deduct them, then we get a figure of about 10,000 killed. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:09, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

@kautilya it certainly holds water. Ian Copland's analysis does not have an estimate of "a few tens of thousands" in the book. The 10,000 estimate you are telling me is nowhere near accurate. The notional figure of 246,356 is a roughest estimate and the "at least 100,000 Muslim refugees of East Punjab" is also a vaguest number to take it to be precise for comparison with other numbers and find an estimate. however I am glad that you have the judgement to not put that 10,000 there. But the biggest problem is Ian Copland in the book which is cited there, tells that "we can safely say that the death toll is 80,000" in the same page 153. this figure is totally concealed while you are saying Ian Copland is the source to that estimate where instead a self made analysis is written. I did not add or remove any words. I just added a small tag to produce any reference if possible. you could have just said those words are added in good faith by self and removed my tag. but you have neither the right nor reason to ridicule my objection. regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.12.75.209 (talk • contribs)

IP, I don't believe there was any ridicule in anything I have written. Neither was any ridicule meant.

I believe all the estimates are based on the two Englishmen's estimates of 70,000 in seven incidents. The Two Englishmen were Horace Alexander and Richard Symonds. Most scholars and analysts take their figure as a rock solid one. There the matter ends, as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned. (Personally, I don't think all that much reliance can be placed on their estimates.) I don't have any objection to adding Ian Copland's estimate, which is in any case lower than Ved Bhasin's. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:44, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

@vamsee I don't know a better modification. I just wanted to check if there is a reference to those words and read that book. I read many books on this event but could not see any reliable number for deaths. different sources give different estimates. nobody really knows anything. again even the Ian Copland's 80,000 claim has no source or basis that he offers, while ironically he blames others for the same reason. all this is guessing business. so I cannot tell a better estimate. the range 50,000-100,000 in Misplaced Pages is actually a good estimate. more than that anyone cannot tell anything. i have some idea about wikipedia policies because i did a case study and project in my college on them. I don't want to come back with a profile since people here misunderstand me and treat me like a fool. thank you for responding to me with respect unlike the other person. regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.12.75.209 (talk) 13:58, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Cool mate, calm down. And the thing with not using a profile is, every time you will appear from a different IP, as it seems to be happening in your case now. Anyways, your wish. Cheers! — Vamsee614 (talk) 04:27, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Apparently, all the state subjects that have migrated to Pakistan have a right to vote for AJK assembly elections.

Under the Act, displaced state subjects (muhājarīn-e-riyāsat-e-jammū-o-kashmīr) living in Pakistan elect representatives to twelve seats in the Assembly. These seats are not linked to residential electoral areas but rather are allocated according to constituencies based on the last district of residence in the former Princely State. Six of the seats are allocated for refugees displaced from the Kashmir Province and six for refugees displaced from the Jammu Province.

So, somebody that has access to the number of voters should be able to bring the data, which we can add to the district populations. That will give us a better estimate of how many people died in the massacres. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 02:53, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Even then, I think we'll never know how many of those people did not enroll for the voting in those elections. And that will remain as another dilemma. — Vamsee614 (talk) 10:08, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but that is the reader's dilemma, not ours. We just report what is known. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:01, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

References

1. Robinson, Cabeiri deBergh (2013), Body of Victim, Body of Warrior: Refugee Families and the Making of Kashmiri Jihadists, University of California Press, pp. 45–46, ISBN 978-0-520-27421-1

Districts

@Vamsee614: Please don't add wikilinks to the current day districts, because the 1947 districts were totally different. You can link to the town names if you wish. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

 Done — Vamsee614 (talk) 19:30, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Sources

Please ensure all sources used are WP:HISTRS and you do not engage in WP:OR. Try to represent scholarly consensus. Faizan (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

WP:HISTRS need to be used where they are available. Please read the guidelines.

On the other hand, when they are not scholarly sources, I am happy to discuss any questions or doubts and reach a reasonable compromise. However, that discussion needs to happen here, not in edit summaries and edit wars. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello Faizan, nobody was engaging in WP:OR here. All the content was written from the sources cited, and the only debate is regarding the scholarship of the sources, no self analysis or synthesis was made. Now in this edit, I particularly mentioned that the details of figures in the infobox shall be discussed in the body of the article, and need not be necessarily present in the box itself. We cannot have the "unverified" tag for a figure in the article permanently, it has to be resolved by reaching consensus on the talk page, or else the figure has to be removed. I have also requested not to add the tag in the infobox again by edit warring, and asked to discuss on talk page for any objections regarding the same. I'm not sure, even then, why you're unnecessarily engaging in edit warring! — TylerDurden10 (talk) 00:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

April 2017

@Kautilya3: Regarding this edit of yours, how is it uncorroborated when the source itself clearly endorses and approves the observation? - — Tyler Durden (talk) 13:19, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

The "source" meaning the author, S. R. Bakshi? Die he author this appendix? Did he endorse it? Where? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Just before the large-sale massacres in the Province got under way, the Maharaja himself toured about the villages with truck-loads of arms and ammunition following him, and personally held consultations with the local officials, distributed arms and in some cases fired the first shot. He was seen on this mission in Akhnoor, Bhimbar and Jammu tahsil and later in the Sambha, Kathua and Hiranagar tahsil.

Yes. There are the author's own words from the book. He is not quoting anyone there! — Tyler Durden (talk) 14:27, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

In that case, why is this put into an appendix? Why doesn't the appendix have a title? Why is the appendix not referred to in the main body? And, why does it say (on p. 286):

I at once accepted the proposal for an impartial inquiry and asked the Prime Minister of Kashmir to nominate a representative for this purpose.

The author, S. R. Bakshi, accepted a proposal from the Prime Minister of Kashmir? You are joking! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:45, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

No, you are joking! Liaquat Ali Khan accepted a proposal from the Prime Minister of Kashmir. The line you are quoting in taken from the para which is in inverted commas in the book, with clearly specifying at the top of the page as "extract from the Premier of Pakistan's (means Pakistani Prime Minister's ) Broadcast, dated 4th November 1947." While it is not the case with the content I quoted. Those words are not in inverted commas, like the ones you quoted. How did you even miss this?

why is this put into an appendix? Why doesn't the appendix have a title? Why is the appendix not referred to in the main body?: As you know, appendix is the section at the end of a book that gives additional information on the topic explored in the contents of the text. Appendix doesn't have a title or it is not referred to in the main body — doesn't mean it is not written by the author, or it is not a part of the book. The unquoted content in this appendix section is apparently written by the author of the book, since it is nowhere mentioned otherwise.

However, also, 'any primary content is observed in a source's appendix' does not alter the fact that it is observed by that source. I want to point out that, for due weight and a NPOV, I carefully added that content as a footnote and with attribution (According to the accounts of refugees...), same as you added this content earlier. --- Tyler Durden (talk) 15:29, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

You are right, I missed the quotation part. So why is this appendix reproducing Pakistan prime minister's broadcast, but not the Indian prime minister's broadcast?

And, why are words from it being reproduced in West Punjab government's "intelligence reports" (dated 1948)  ? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:47, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah, that's true! Seems like the whole appendix is taken from the reports and prints of West Punjab Government. Even the one that is in debate . Bakshi did not write it, I was terribly mistaken!

But you did forgot to answer to this:

However, also, 'any primary content is observed in a source's appendix' does not alter the fact that it is observed by that source. I want to point out that, for due weight and a NPOV, I carefully added that content as a footnote and with attribution (According to the accounts of refugees...), same as you added this content earlier. — Tyler Durden (talk) 16:21, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

My policy is that I would only use primary sources to provide detail that may be missing in the secondary sources. If a secondary source has said the Maharaja distributed arms for massacres and we had an eye witness that provided details that were essential, then I would use it, but I wouldn't use the primary soruce on its own. The problem here is also that all the parties are heavily involved in the conflict and the incentives for selective presentation of material, for distortion of facts and to propagandise the whole thing are rather too many. We shouldn't touch this source with a barge pole. The Pakistan government had tons of Western reporters milling around during the Indo-Pakistan war. If they wanted their refugeess tales to be recorded, they could have easily thrown them open to neutral reporters. There was no need to publish a secretive, authorless "intelligence report" about it. Regarding my earlier footnote, please note that it was taken from a first person report published in a newspaper, not in a governmental propaganda document. The Indian government has in fact deliberately ignored and suppressed all the information about the victims of Mirpur and Rajouri. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Chattha, pg 183:

There were reports that the Maharaja of the Dogra Hindu state was ‘in person commanding all the forces’ which were ethnically cleansing the Muslims. (‘Elimination of Muslims from Jammu’, Part II, The Times (London) 10 August 1948, p. 5.)

This won't suffice? — Tyler Durden (talk) 19:19, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

No, because The Times report was written by a member of the Pakistan government, a fact that Chattha never bothered to check.Your best bet is to use Snedden. Snedden does use information from Kashmir before Accession but at least it is filtered through a reliable scholar. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:54, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm ready to drop this case in good faith, since I realised that the content is taken from a document published by Pakistan Government. But your arguments don't appear genuine to me. On one side you directly use primary content reported decades after the incident has occurred in local newspapers, and on the other hand you're objecting to the content reported in The Times in 1948! The Times report was written by a Pakistani government's agent doesn't change the fact that it is published and reported by The Times. And also, more importantly, the report has been cited widely by multiple scholarly RS including Snedden, with attribution. And you're saying we should brush it away completely without consideration, even to use as a secondary source for adding a mere footnote. — Tyler Durden (talk) 22:05, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

All right, go ahead and use The Times report. But then I will be adding content from State sources, Mahajan etc. to present their side of the picture. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Hahaha! This has become a kids fight. And no, I don't want the quality of this article to hit the bottom. I intend only in presenting facts and neutral versions, not focus extensively on sides of the picture. So I will drop the case.

But before I leave, I just want to know for one last time: why exactly this footnote should stay in the article, but this one shouldn't? Both are the accounts of survivors and both are supported by newspaper reports. And it is not that even the newspaper reports which published the former accounts were holy writs. They just reproduced what a survivor wrote, as it is, after so many years. That doesn't give any special authenticity to that version. Rationally, is your position framed because of the logic — former is written primarily by the survivor Bal K. Gupta himself independently, while the latter is wholly the work of Pakistani agencies? Just clarify this for my satisfaction. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 05:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

I added the first footnote because I mentioned Pakistani soldiers in the narrative and it got queried. Without the footnote, it would look like an unfounded allegation.

For the same reason, it is ok to add The Times footnote to document the Maharaja's involvement. But once the Maharaja is put into the frame, his motivations and pressures also need to be explained. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh fine. In that case, I don't think it will bring down the quality of the article. If not it improves the content. So I'm adding the footnote from The Times report. You can add and develop content on Hari Singh's side of the picture. — Tyler Durden (talk) 10:30, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

May 2017

@Kautilya3: The Mirpur District page has a history section which describes what Mirpur District consisted of in 1947. So I linked it. --- Tyler Durden (talk) 19:09, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I linked it to the History section now. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:19, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Mirpur and Rajouri

I see that the editors are contesting the death toll estimates of Mirpur and Rajouri.

• As far as Mirpur is concerned, 20,000-dead is quite a good estimate based on all the available evidence. Das Gupta's book is internationally published and internationally reviewed. It is not reasonable to call it an "Indian source". Snedden hasn't looked into Mirpur and Rajouri as diligently as he looked at Jammu. The fact that he couldn't verify it doesn't mean much.
• For Rajouri, the information is scant, and the 30,000-dead estimate is from the Indian military but compiled by academics. It seems to be based on "open mass graves" found in the fields surrounding Rajouri, but insufficient detail has been provided, the demographic data doesn't support it (Rajouri district is currently 34% Hindu) and I haven't seen any survivor reports.

In November-December 1947, Horace Alexander and Richard Symonds were jointly commissioned by India and Pakistan to investigate the treatment of minorities in the conflict areas. Alexander went to the Indian-controlled areas and Symonds to the Azad areas. Unfortunately, while Alexander did his part, Symonds was more interested in finding out about the rebellion than about the plight of minorities. So we have lop-sided information from the two parts of the Jammu province. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:32, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

@Tyler Durden: I'm afraid this revert was not warranted. Gupta's credentials are irrelevant insofar as the source of the figure is concerned. On page 97, he cites that number from Balraj Madhok and derives its accuracy from Indian government estimates of retreating refugees. Madhok, btw, was an RSS activist who was directly involved in that conflict on behalf of pro-Maharaja forces, so he would not satisfy WP:THIRDPARTY. Keeping this in mind, the in-text attribution to Indian sources was therefore entirely appropriate. Mar4d (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I am afraid you are second-guessing a reliable source. If we were basing our information on Balraj Madhok, we would definitely attribute it. But we are basing it on Das Gupta. How he gets information and what he finds reliable and what he doesn't, is not our business. Unless you have a reliable source that contradicts the information, it is not proper to question it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:13, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

No, I'm not. The Gupta source as you can see clearly references Madhok and Indian government estimates for the 20k number. The figure is not from Gupta. Therefore WP:ATTRIBUTION is necessary. This is a basic requirement and non-debatable. If you have reliable sources showing otherwise, we can take a look. Until then, this is an Indian figure and it has to be clarified. Mar4d (talk) 04:37, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

What part of WP:ATTRIBUTION leads you to believe that this must be attributed? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:27, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Kautilya3, the figure is sourced to an RSS activist and the Indian government. Neither fit WP:THIRDPARTY. You are free to use Gupta's text but it is important for the readers to know where the info is coming from - a primary source. The same would be expected for a Pakistani figure. Mar4d (talk) 12:23, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

There are three secondary sources given in the infobox, which I have now copied to the body as well: Snedden, Das Gupta and Khalid Hasan. Snedden and Das Gupta both give the 20,000 figure and base it on Balraj Madhok. Hasan balances Yusuf Saraf and a survivor's account (Bal K. Gupta). I think that is enough corroboration. Madhok's information is also presumably based on survivors' reports, because he was never in Mirpur himself.

The basic disagreements are:

• Saraf says there were 20,000 people in Mirpur, and the survivors say 25,000.
• Saraf knows that only a small number escaped with the State Forces. The survivors say 2,500. Madhok gives the figure of 2,000.
• Saraf doesn't say how many people survived from the Alibeg camp. The survivors say 1,600. These came via the Red Cross. So it is a public figure.

So all said and done, 20,000 dead is a reasonable estimate. The disagreements are minor. All parties know that prisoners were killed in the Alibeg camp. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Yes and no. Unfortunately the Hasan article is inaccessible. Bhagotra too isn't WP:THIRDPARTY regarding the Mirpur violence. As far as Snedden is concerned, he said the figure came from (quote) an "unverifiable source". So that brings us to square one; Gupta quotes a figure, and that figure is from Madhok. For objectivity's sake, attribution to the Indian source is the correct thing to do, and what Misplaced Pages policy asks. You haven't yet explained your objection. Mar4d (talk) 04:44, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Since I was the one who removed the attribution, this is my view on it. I was aware that the figure was taken from an RSS activist Balraj Madhok. But in the citation, Gupta writes: This could be true because the Indian Government itself admits that only 3,600 refugees could come out with the retreating Dogra forces. (emphasis mine) To me, that's Gupta giving his stamp of approval to the figure, balancing all the information he has. And Gupta is a third-party source. Calling him an Indian source is inappropriate, as pointed above. So I think it should remain as a neutral figure. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

The "could be true" works both ways. And just to be clear, Gupta isn't the source of the figure as you admitted. So his approval (or lack thereof) remains entirely irrelevant. It's simply his job as a writer to conjecture whatever data is available to him, which is evident in the passage quoted. Even Snedden did that, rather discernably. Their quoting of the figure doesn't change it's WP:PRIMARY source origin. Both authors have commented/referenced on the source as you can see; therefore, the in-text attribution isn't anything different. Hope this makes sense. Mar4d (talk) 14:03, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

@Mar4d, Khalid Hasan's article is reproduced in the Bal K. Gupta's book. I suppose you don't believe it. Here is an internet archive . It used to be here, but somehow it got removed.

As for my "objection", I don't believe that if a reliable source cites an Indian source, then the reliable source itself becomes an "Indian source". That way, we would have to attribute everything sourced to Snedden as "Pakistani source". Both TD and I try to find as many sources as we can and cross-verify them. When there is consensus among them, we don't use attributions. So, what is needed here is to find contradicting information, if you can. Until you do so, this discussion is merely a waste of time. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:24, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

References

1. Carnall, Geoffrey (2010), Gandhi's Interpreter: A Life of Horace Alexander: A Life of Horace Alexander, Edinburgh University Press, p. 216, ISBN 978-0-7486-4185-7

Return of refugees

@Kautilya3: In the 'Population figures' section, can you please tell me why aren't we taking the official Jammu and Kashmir Government's figure of 200,000 to estimate the number of Jammu Muslims killed? :-P

PS: I'm not saying that the people killed are about 100,000. All I'm saying is, I don't know, and I still cannot know. Even if today I don't ask this, tomorrow at some point of time, some reader will certainly raise this question. Regards, Tyler Durden (talk) 03:34, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Firstly, because the J&K Government is not THIRDPARTY and it had incentives to inflate the figures. Secondly, if 200,000 refugees are taken to have returned out of 333,000, then Pakistan would have only 133,000 refugees left and it is easy to find other data that contradicts it (e.g., Snedden). Frankly, I am surprised (and gladdened) to hear that 100,000 refugees returned. 200,000 would be quite a bit harder to believe. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:09, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Firstly, because the J&K Government is not THIRDPARTY and it had incentives to inflate the figures: Do you mean, incentives from Indian government?

Secondly, if 200,000 refugees are taken to have returned out of 333,000, then Pakistan would have only 133,000 refugees left and it is easy to find other data that contradicts it (e.g., Snedden): Did Snedden/anybody particularly observe that there are more Jammu Muslim refugees in Pakistan after 1951 than 133,000?

Frankly, I am surprised (and gladdened) to hear that 100,000 refugees returned. - Me too. — Tyler Durden (talk) 15:13, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Kautilya3, This is what Snedden has to say:

Certainly, a large number of Jammu Muslims, around 400,000, also fled to Pakistan or to the newly-formed Azad Kashmir, which had about 150,000 refugees. When these people left their homes in J&K, many thought that they were leaving temporarily and that they would soon return when the situation in and the subcontinent normalised. Few of these refugees ever returned home.

--- Tyler Durden (talk) 02:15, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Certainly, the return of the refugees has been a well-kept secret. I haven't seen anything about it in all the reliable sources I have skimmed through all these years. Saraf's book is gigantic, with a lousy index. It is hard to find information in it. It looks like Snedden didn't spot it.

Saraf also gives the figures for voters in AJK elections, in which the refugees had voting rights. Based on those figures, he estimated about 500,000 refugees present in Pakistan in the 1970s. That number couldn't have grown from a base of 133,000 in 1950. The J&K government would have been prone to inflate its own achievements. There were also incentives of corruption, which apparently became rampant as soon as Sheikh Abdullah took over. Previously the officials might have been stealing from the people, but now they were also stealing from the state.

For the time being, all I can say is that the 'headcount figure' seems reliable. The seeming inconsistency that found earlier is accounted for by the return of refugees. We need to continue looking for better data on the returned refugees. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:00, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Okay, fine. Thanks for the reply, Tyler Durden (talk) 08:13, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Justice Yusuf Saraf estimates them (deaths) to be between 20,000 to 30,000. - For this content, you cited page number 133 of Saraf's book, while Evans, in his journal 'A departure from history: Kashmiri Pandits, 1990-2001', cited page number 841 for the same (citation 110 on p 37). Can you please re-check this? --- Tyler Durden (talk) 15:01, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

That is the page number in the 1979 edition. I will add it to the article. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:37, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

I find it hilarious how Tyler Durden has been blocked. Fitting I'd say. Now for these ridiculous claims about Pakistani troops massacring Hindus, there is not one single credible piece of evidence provided in the article which states this. I've looked through the sources, and only 1 person claims this...Das Gupta. Where he found these claims, God only knows. And the claim about rape is nowhere to be found either. So I'm putting citations again on those claims until someone can prove without a shadow of a doubt. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 15:11, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Please note that WP:NPA applies to blocked editors as well. Attempting to disparage editors also won't go down well. And, why are you writing here in an old thread?

What is here is a summary of the main article, 1947 Mirpur massacre. Have you looked at the sources there? Given how poor your source-checking is, as indicated in the section below, you need to be very careful in challenging verification for long-established content. It is highly disruptive to do so. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

biased page

this page is a biased page. why there is so much more information about violence on muslims and very less information about violence on hindus and sikhs? onesidedly "killings were carried out by extremist Hindus and Sikhs" is there but no "killings done by extremists muslims" is there. the writers of this page are anti hindu bigots. please somebody look into this prejudiced page and delete it from wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saffron Army (talk • contribs) 10:07, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Dear Saffron if you bothered to look at the title of the page this is about Jammu massacres committed by non other than other saffron extremists you are free to create other pages related to unrelated events in mirpur or rojai. This is another example of people trying to push their religous agenda on an article. 2A02:C7D:151D:D100:7871:7BC2:3DB8:7A1C (talk) 08:50, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that 1947 Mirpur Massacre be merged into 1947 Jammu massacres. There's not point of having two articles. Or remove the Mirpur massacres from the Jammu massacres. One or the other. PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 23:06, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - There is nothing unusual about a topic being summarised in a parent article, and given more detail in a separate article. The nom fails to state any reasons why 1947 Mirpur massacre should not be an independent article.

This page covers the massacres that occurred throughout the Jammu province. However, the majority of violence that occurred in the princely-ruled parts was communal violence, even though it was apparently aided and abetted by the princely regime. But the violence in the rebel areas was characteristically different. Almost the entire population of religious minorities was massacred after the rebels took control. In Mirpur, 20,000 out of 25,000 minorities were killed. That is a different topic, different setting, and different actors. I see no reason to merge. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:21, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

This is not a summary this is several thousand words which are enough for an independent article itself and has obvious agendas of Hindus who wish to muddy the waters about the Jammu massacre. 2A02:C7D:151D:D100:7871:7BC2:3DB8:7A1C (talk) 08:36, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Dubious claims - citations required

• Many Hindus and Sikhs, on and after 25 November 1947 gathered in Mirpur for shelter and protection were killed by the Pakistani troops and tribesmen.

Where did "Pakistani troops" come from? None of the sources provided even claim this. Pakistan didn't even have a proper army in November 1947 anyway.

• Mass rape and abduction of women was also reported .

There is no proof of this either from the sources.

The only source that claims "Pakistani troops" is Das Gupta, a reknowned pseudohistorian and Indian propagandist. He himself offers no clues as to the source of his information. It seems like he just woke up one day and decided to write an article. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 15:08, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Snedden, p.56:

The Indian White Paper discusses one incident of violence and kidnapping in and around Mirpur on 25 November 1947, with 'Pathans' the perpetrators. A further alleged--and, if true, abysmal--incident of anti-Hindu violence took place in Mirpur. This was the 'liquidation of over twenty thousand non-Muslims on and after 25 November 1947 out of a total twenty five thousand' gathered in Mirpur for shelter and protection. A 'greatly shocked' Sardar Ibrahim painfully confirmed that some Hindus were 'disposed of' in Mirpur in November 1947, although he does nto mention any figures.

Das Gupta, p.97:

Whereas the migration of the Muslims from the Jammu area was quite impressive, the beleaguered non-Muslims in Bhimber, Rajauri, Kotli, Mirpur and Deva Vatala had to face total annihilation in the early stages of occupation by elements coming from Pakistan. In particular, the town of Mirpur saw the liquidation of over twenty thousand non-Muslims on and after 25 November 1947 out of a total of twenty-five thousand, inclusive of refugees, who had taken shelter there from other areas.

Khalid Hasan, narrating the testimony of Bal K. Gupta:

Around November 25, 1947, there were nearly 25,000 Hindus and Sikhs living in Mirpur. During the city's capture, close to 2,500 were killed in the infernos that erupted due to Pakistani artillery fire. Another 2,500 escaped with the retreating Jammu and Kashmir army. The remaining 20,000 were marched in procession towards Alibeg. Along the way, Pakistani troops and Pathans killed about 10,000 of the captured Hindu and Sikh men and kidnapped over 5,000 women. The 5,000 Hindus and Sikhs who survived the 20-mile trek to Alibeg were imprisoned. In March 1948, the Red Cross rescued 1,600 of the survivors from Alibeg. Between 1948 and 1954, around 1,000 abducted Hindu and Sikh women were recovered from Pakistan and Azad Kashmir.

If you want more detail about the Pakistani troops, here it comes:

One evil looking Pakistani announced that our days of living were over. They would kill all of us Kafir Hindus (infidels) with a butcher's knife. But he yelled that number 18th and 19th have to do a simple task of lifting the dead bodies and throwing them in the canal....

On December 20, 1947 evening, four days after the above episode, Pakistani soldiers grabbed 13 young men and took them to the canal. We were again made to remove our clothes and lie down... The Pakistani butcher went reciting Kalma and slaughtering Hindu boys and we kept on throwing the dead bodies in the canal. After both of us had thrown the body of 11th person in the canal, we laid down on the ground for our turn. Time was same as four days ago but the sky was clear and I closed my eyes for my turn.

Suddenly, we heard a commanding voice asking why soldiers were killing the boys. Another introduced him as Sardar Mohammed Ibrahim, President of Azad Kashmir Government. Then, I opened my eyes and saw that the butcher got up and saluted the Sardar and bowed his head in front of him. The butcher replied that he was a soldier of Pakistan, follower of its president Mohammed Ali Jinnah and was following the orders of his superiors.

The boy who narrates this story was the son of a lawyer in the Mirpur district court, whom Sardar Ibrahim regarded as a personal friend. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:11, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

References

1. Bhagotra, R. K. (2013) , "Escape from Death Seven Times", Ibid, pp. 123–125

• We should not be using Bal K. Gupta because it is a self-published source. Also, since it would appear that Snedden's book amounts to a revisionist view of what went on, I think we need to highlight that in some way. - Sitush (talk) 05:04, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

We are not usingn Bal K. Gupta. We are using previously published articles that he included in appendices. I can also tell you that we cross-compared the surviver accounts with Sardar Ibrahim, and they are consistent with each other. Ibrahim says that he ordered that nobody should be killed in the Alibeg camp, but they continued to be killed. So the guards at the camp were not following his orders. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Previously published by whom? Where? Why not cite them directly? And we're not qualified to "cross-compare" - that is for secondary sources to do, I think. I have absolutely no knowledge of the subject matter but the sourcing seems suspect, at least per our policies. Sneddon's book, certainly, caused a bit of a ruckus. - Sitush (talk) 12:09, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

As the citation above says "first published in The Tawi Deepika". See WP:SAYWHERE. I don't know of any ruckus about the Snedden's book. I have been using almost ever since it got published. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:16, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

The only non-biased source here is Snedden, and he doesn't say anything about any Pakistani troops. Please explain to me which "army" Pakistan had in 1947? Das Gupta and that other guy are not credible or neutral sources. --PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

It makes no difference whether you think some source is "credible or neutral". What matters is whether it is reliable. By Misplaced Pages policy, it is. You haven't given any evidence that it is not reliable. And, who is "the other guy"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:01, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Flooding of article with an unrelated event

This article has had more information relating to a event in Mirpur and other places than the event the article is supposed to be about considering those events have seperate pages and links to them this is undue and is obviously an attempt by people with a certain agenda to try and dilute the Jammu genocide by comparing to an unrelated event elsewhere. The murpir article itself does not even mention the much larger genocide which occurred BEFORE the mirpur event. We need editors who do not have bias or a certain agenda to assess this article and any additions of a unrelated issue must be discussed first 2A02:C7D:151D:D100:7871:7BC2:3DB8:7A1C (talk) 08:40, 16 November 2017 (UTC)sock of a community banned user.

Hello @2A02:C7D:151D:D100:7871:7BC2:3DB8:7A1C:! I noticed that you have left a note on my talk page. Although I do agree with you that unrelated events should be removed, the second last sentence of the general information should be kept, as it appears to be caused by this or is part of same conflict as this. While I do apologise in being too stern, I would also like to say that when you do make a comment such as above in the talk page, can you please discuss it before removing? This allows for a general consensus to be reached, and bold edits such as the ones you have done are flagged as highly likely to be vandalism/bad faith edits on the wikipedia filter. Thanks! Dark-World25 (talk) 21:49, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Jammu, Mirpur and Rajouri

During the last few days, a whole bunch of IPs and at least one registered editor, have started raising issues about Mirpur and Rajouri information covered here. They have also made WP:POINTy edits at Jammu, Mirpur and 1947 Mirpur massacre. These edits and the consequent edit-warring do not achieve anything. Please discuss the issues here.

"Jammu" In this article refers to the Jammu province (of the princely state), of which Mirpur and Rajouri were very much a part. But Tyler Durden (who wrote most of the content here) was also aware that the majority of the violence happened in the Jammu and Kathua districts, and that is where most of the content is focused. Mirpur and Rajouri are mentioned in brief summaries.

The reverse comparison is not valid. Mirpur and Rajouri were not "provinces". The discussion of those events covers the respective cities and their surrounding areas. There is no reason for those articles to cover the Jammu events, unless it is established that the two were linked. Mirpur and Rajouri were rather linked to the 1947 Poonch Rebellion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Poor quality edits

JosephusOfJerusalem, this is a difficult and painful subject. I request you not to make POV edits and fight silly games. Changing "scholar" to "historian" and adding Alex von Tunzelmann, labelling her as "historians", is precisely that kind of a game.

• Illyas Chattha is a greenhorn that barely got his PhD. It is adequate to describe him as a "scholar". We can reserve labels like "historian" for Ian Copland and Christopher Snedden who have done much more fact-checking than Chattha sees the need for. Here is an example of his statements:

As the shadow of Partition fell over J&K, over one million Muslims were uprooted and an estimated 250,000-300,000 were massacred in Jammu province alone between September and November 1947.

Take a deep breath! One million Muslims! From a little province like Jammu, whose total population in 1947 was just about one million. The total Muslims over there in 1947 was no more than half a million. And, a good majority of them are still there, as the #Population figures section shows.

• Tunzelmann does not even have a PhD. She is more of a popular book writer, even film-writer, that specialises in historical topics. Everybody that writes anything historical gets to be called a "historian" in popular parlance. Our meaning of "historian" is much more specialised, as defined in WP:HSC.

First of all, I would like to ask why you find the need to cite such poor-quality sources when scholars like Copland and Snedden have been cited here.

Secondly, why do you make claims like "Historians explain that India had supplied the Dogra troops with weapons" when even the poor-quality source you have added only says "perhaps because it had secretly been providing arms to the Dogra side". Tunzelmann might believe that she has access to "secrets" that none of us aware of, but there is enough documentation available to disprove such theories. And, even if India did supply weapons, what then? How else is the State supposed to get weapons? Does Tunzelman not know that the State was just about face a massive invasion from Pakistan? What does all this have to do with the subject of this article?

You write "The proportion of Muslims in the Jammu city altogether halved by the middle of September due to killings and displacement". The phrase "due to killings and displacement" is not in the source. That is your WP:OR. In fact the page you have cited also talks about "anticipatory exodus". And, Chattha's source for this statement is Pakistan Times, which had been in existence for less than a year by September 1947. How much reliance can one place on such a newspaper in such contentious and troubled times? Christopher Snedden, on the the hand, uses Civil & Military Gazette, a much more established newspaper.

The page has been perfectly well-balanced and high quality before your contributions. I don't see much value that you are adding. I suggest that you first read the article and its sources thoroughly before attempting to make any modifications. As I said this is a difficult subject. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:41, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

If would be quite a WP:WEASEL to describe someone with post-doc in history as just a scholar. Tunzelman is also a known historian with a qualification in history, unless of course you have a source which says otherwise. If you don't agree I can take it to WP:RSN.

Of course if you have sources which contradict Tunzelman and Chattha on Indian (or Patiala, by then a part of India) supplies and the Indian denial of this holocaust which Tunzelman says followed from their supplies of weapon to the Dogra state you may have an argument. The rest is WP:POV argumentation.

The WP:OR argument is invalid because Chattha's next sentence explicitly mentions ″killings and dispersal″. There is no need for hairsplitting here. The age of newspapers reporting current events is irrelevant in so far as their reliability is concerned. JosephusOfJerusalem (talk) 00:32, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

A lot of new researches and modifications take place especially when old incidents are concerned, hence the age of newspaper is relevant. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Capitals00 (talk • contribs)

Josephus, "scholar" is high qualification for Misplaced Pages. My assessment is that Chattha is a scholar, though yet inexperienced. For example, in a later article he analysis the partisan coverage of the newspapers, in the light of which his overreliance on Pakistan Times and Nawa-i-Waqt is questionable.

As for Tunzelman, I would classify her as a 'writer', not a scholar. Her biography says that she 'read history', which basically means that she got a degree in history. She does not mention whether it was a BA or MA. MPS1992, can you take a look?

The paragraph you are using from Chattha is problematic. The first citation is for mid-September. The second is for 20 November and the third is for 29 October. The events have been listed in jumbled order. Since the situation in J&K was very fluid and dynamic at this time, one month is a long time. So the paragraph is combining apples and oranges, and mixing them all up.

The idea that the Jammu city's Muslim population was halved by mid-September is contradicted by for example Yusuf Saraf:

Mohammad Yosuf Saraf, former chief justice of the PAAJK High Court, says that by 10 October 1947, 2,000 Muslims had migrated to Sialkot.

Until 4 October, both the Army chief and the Police chief of the State were British officers. It is highly unlikely that any large-scale killings took place during their tenure. Jammu city's Superintendent of Police was Muslim too, until he was dismissed around 20 October. All sources agree that major violence occurred between 20 October and 10 November. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:32, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

References

1. Chattha, The Long Shadow of 1947 2016, p. 145. sfn error: no target: CITEREFChattha,_The_Long_Shadow_of_19472016 (help)
2. Chattha, Ilyas (2013). "Partisan Reporting: Press Coverage of the 1947 Partition Violence in the Punjab". South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies. 36 (4): 608–625. doi:10.1080/00856401.2013.819829. ISSN 0085-6401.
3. Luv Puri, Across the Line of Control 2013. sfn error: no target: CITEREFLuv_Puri,_Across_the_Line_of_Control2013 (help)

Thank you for the ping. I had better not get too involved here. However.

As far as I can see on a quick look, Chattha is a post-doc student according to the website linked above. This is a different thing from has a post-doc which one of you appeared to suggest above. Their being a post-doc student suggests they already have a PhD in history. This makes the person reasonably well-qualified in the general field of history, although you could still challenge -- at WP:RSN -- whether a particular publication of theirs constitutes reliable sourcing for a particular statement, in a particular field.

The Misplaced Pages article about Tunzelman suggests that they received an undergraduate history degree from Oxford University. This will be listed as an MA not a BA (assuming they bothered to take up the MA) but it is still an undergraduate degree. It gives them no particular scholarly status other than being slightly more of an authority than someone without such a degree. The extent to which a statement in one of such a person's works is a reliable source for a particular fact, depends in large part on the nature of the publisher, and the nature of the work. Such reliability could be established, or challenged, at WP:RSN.

You could consider as a parallel example Max Hastings, who never completed his undergraduate history degree at Oxford, made his career as a journalist, but has written a great many historical books, has won a great many prizes for them, and is a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society.

In general I much prefer to avoid Misplaced Pages articles labelling writers as anything at all. If there is an article about Tunzelman on Misplaced Pages, then the wording "Alex von Tunzelman states that..." is entirely adequate -- we do not need writer, scholar or historian. We should not be attempting to laud or denigrate a particular source by insisting on mentioning what we believe their status is. Avoiding mentioning status also assists by avoiding the necessity for this sort of argument.

I also think that for the most part, it is best to avoid analyzing the credibility or reliability of a particular writer by picking apart particular things they have written, ourselves. If a writer has been condemned as unreliable, because of something they wrote, by other reliable sources, that is far more relevant. It's not for us as Wikipedians to do that.

The text "Historians explain that India had supplied..." also has some issues with the MOS because of WP:CLAIM. I do not have the expertise or the background to analyze it beyond that.

both the Army chief and the Police chief of the State were British officers. It is highly unlikely that any large-scale killings took place during their tenure -- I do not really agree that this necessarily follows. Britisher authorities were often unable to exert full control in this period. MPS1992 (talk) 23:14, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

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