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Request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page

I have a request to shorten the PBK section and start their own page. The current entry is rather long and we could add more Bibliography/References to the article if we had more space available. I am not asking that they be deleted...only shortened and the full entry moved to their page with more room to expand on it there. This would also allow for photos to be added which would make the article more engaging. PEACETalkAbout 17:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

They already do. Either AIVV, PBK or Prajapita Brahma Kumaris will take you there and it is linked to on the topic, it is not?

As far as I understand the PBKs have such a problem with BK members the leadership of the BKWSU shutting down their websites, going out of there way to discredit and persecute them that that they cant be bothered to develop it. It is a tense scene out in India between the two parties. They are no way as rich as the BKWSU.

BTW, as a matter of form new comments go at the bottom and the order is not changed otherwsie they might be missed.

P.S. I just had a look at their page ... and yes ... there are signs of the usual blanking/edit wars.

Thanks 195.82.106.244 17:07, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

.244,

So, does this mean that there is still room to add to the article?

Well, I could add the PBK article to my watch list....

PEACE TalkAbout 17:28, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Your attempted analysis of my motives is both innacurate and not relevant.

Given your initial response, my prediction is that I would find dialogue with you unenjoayble and unproductive, so I leave the issue for someone else to tackle. I'll check back from time to time and see how well your defense of the page as it stands is holding up! Sethie 10:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Searchin Man complaint

The email which I posted above dated August 21, 2006 has been modified. It now reads as if I was invited to post back at the forum, brahmakumaris.info. I have been trying to log on into the site several times since I was banned, ...I would like to share my lyrics too..but unfortunately it is another false statement. BTW, are you going to buy the .mobi TLD ? Better hurry up...

So now everyone knows my name, former work place (sorry I cannot use the University computers to post,I have another job) Did you enjoy the USF site? but that is not malicious, you just made a simple google search to find out more about me...Well, 195.82.106.244 look forward to posting again in the site.. another lie from you will really discredit you....

Best Wishes to you,

Avyakt7 aka Riveros11 64.156.25.3

( can you figure out who is my IP provider? just do a "whois" search)

Dear,Avyakt7 aka Riveros11

64.156.25.3 Oh, are you Searchin man too?,

I will write the Admin one last time since you seem to miss the interaction and perhaps it will keep your duality in check by being just Avyakt7 there. Community seems to be a deep loss to those in transition. As stated before, please use this page only for article issues and not forum issues. I did provide the official BK forum link for you. Did you join? I hope that you get others support to allow for your timely return. In the mean time keep churning and play nice. PeaceTalkAbout 23:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Bud, looks like there's sockpuppets galore operating on this discussion. Where about are you posting the complaint to the wiki admin Talkabout? Don't forget to get 195.82.106.244=Brahmakumaris.info checked as well, I'm absolutely certain you will have much more luck with I.P resolution there. Oh and btw 195.82.106.244, the edit summary is for summarising the edit or in your case vandelism carried out. Try and remember that please.

sincerely searchin man 23:44, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi.

Sure, you are making unsubstantated personal attacks and erroneous claims. I will go through the discussion again and correct what is wrong. I have no problem with criticisms, IF they are based on reality, BUT as this topic is not about me personally, I do not see the relevance.

Personally, I would prefer to work on addressing the citations that I have provided and following up on the organization's financial status. You are in a better position than I am to provide those but they ought be in the public domain.

Yup, ignore God making all those 1976 End of the World predictions, the senior sisters covering up the child abuse, keep up the ad hominem attacks guys - and don't whatever you do ask to see the un-editing copies of the Murlis. Especially, those between 1969 and 1976. This is all becoming very good factual account of the real face of the BKWSU today.

But tell me, are you going to meet God, the Supreme Soul, possessing and speaking through the old India lady Gulzar this "Double Foreigner" season at Mount Abu ? I am wondering if we need to correct the stuff about God Shiva possessing and being channelled through Gulzar as it says, "Should Shiva Baba enter the body of a pure virgin? But there is no such rule. After all Father, how can He mount a virgin?" in the Murli dated 15 October 1969. Can you check this please? Does that means that it is NOT God that is possessing Gulzar and speaking the Avyakt Murlis? If it is not, who is it that all the BK Raja Yogis are going to meet and having yoga with?

Thanks. 195.82.106.244 00:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear PeaceTalkAbout,

1.Please remember that it is not "playing nice" to modify articles in this talk page. Is this something which concern this article? I hope you say yes.

2.I am already a member of that site you sent me, which is a BK site. "Ex-I" is acting maliciously by disclosing my full personal information. He is not the only computer person around and I could get his full name,and other information which he is trying to protect...., but I will not (You can breathe deepely now, .244.) How about Godaddy.com? for kicks... 195.82.106.244 play nice, my friend. This is related with the article in question, because it shows that .244 is abusing this site and going against some of the wikipedia rules and regulations. All I have done is to find out that 195.82.106.244 and Ex-I are the same person and that he stated untrue statements to BK Simon. Oh, Btw, I didn't do a google search to get that.

3. It is obvious to me that 195.82.106.244 is afraid of my posts. He bragged about all along that "I run away" from his site. He is not giving me the chance to post there again because it is not convenient for him. As far as wikipedia, anyone could post here and make any changes. Changing IP addresses is not a problem.

4. Just for the record, I am not "Searchin man," and I will not lie about this. I am a Brahmin soul and I have no interest in anything else but to see an accurate article about the Brahma Kumaris in Misplaced Pages. As it stands right now, there is a lot to be worked on. That's all PeaceTalkAbout, waiting to hear from "that" admin... oh, yeah.. He knows my email (as everyone else now)so he can reach me via email to avoid any further delays.

Best Wishes,

Avyakt7 Riveros11

Riveros11,

If you are going to continue to make ad hominem attacks, and you feel they have any relevance to this BKWSU topic, substantiate your allegations. I keep asking.

• Personally, I'd rather focus on the facts related to this topic starting with the financial structure and status of the BKWSU.

If you are a trusted recruiter, and have some inside access to the management of the cult, are you willing to co-operate in this matter or do you think the cult's interest are best served by trying to attack and discredit me and the brahmakumaris.info website?

We have a good opportunity here to completely and accurately document the cult in a manner that has never been done before. I think you have to agree that the bulk of the topic is according to Shrimat and clearly referenced from the Murlis.

So what are your specific corrections and what are your easily referenceable sources or alternative citations?

195.82.106.244 14:11, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Avyakt7 Riveros11,

I haven't seen your name or address here? I do not think it was posted.

One point that I do believe needs to be corrected is the founder's proper occupation. I will gather the information one posted as I have verified this with several sources now and it would appear that it needs to be corrected. This was posted in along with some that are arbitrary (well semantics). The following was submitted by 88.110.105.125 :Formed in Sindh, now Pakistan, during 1937 by wealthy diamond merchant, Dada Lekraj, whose customers included royalty. He was a devout Hindu and had 12 gurus. After many years of devotion Dada Lekraj. My sources confirm that this indeed was the case and as in any business, not all jewelers can trade in diamonds, only a select few. This distinction is also warranted as it also shows that he was from a wealthy family in say contrast with Jesus. Sindh, being the upper business class and influential in society.

As to the OZ site well I would have to agree that the most intellectual thing posted there is the Thought for the Day. So, hopefully some of the other active BKs will pledge for you, so that you can return to the info site. By playing nice I am only noting that the PBKs under Arjun seem to get along wonderfully and so I do believe you too can get along in the sand box of the forum. So, place all bad thoughts away as a Brahmin soul and with good thoughts all Brahmins will get along.

I look forward to the discussion on the above-mentioned correction. PEACE TalkAbout 16:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

I have no complaint to place here in regards to .244. I discuss the points and move on from there. I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjur many things from said words. I wrote the Admins at the site where Avaykt7 wishes to return to. PEACE TalkAbout 16:08, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Talkabout! Good of you to take the time out to communicate Bud. Why up to now you’d been dismissing me right out of hand as a nasty sock puppet. Glad to see the change of heart. Sorry Bud, no idea what your saying here. -. “I would like to point out I did varify on thing and yes it would appear to be true albeit not in the best wording...as one could conjure many things from said words.” - Please clarify for me.

Got to say Bud, finding it very difficult to see you as a self confessed ‘monitor of this article for vandalism’. Certainly your vigilance don’t extent to this discussion page, or you’d surely be more up for complaining to the Wiki Admin?

Seems like it has to take a part-timer like myself to drop in once in a while to catch 195.82.106.244 in the act of pruning and modifying what other contributors have said, to what he would prefer them to have said. Let me tell you Bud, this sort of behaviour may go down just a treat on his own brahmakumaris.info forum but it has no place whatsoever on a Wiki discussion page.

And yet Talkabout Bud, it can get worse! Naturally I restore the discussion to it’s original condition, where upon 195.82.106.244 reverts it to his version and then uses my own Talk page as a forum to publicly disclose personal information on Avyakt7 Riveros11 and then he really lays it on rich by attempting to further threaten me if I ‘don’t play by the Wiki rules’. I mean that last statement alone just kills me Bud. What sort of rules has the guy been reading!

And then ofcourse don’t forget the sock puppetry. - 195.82.106.244 aka BrahmaKumaris.info. Again something people are seemingly prepared to put up with on the BrahmaKumaris.info forum, but the disciplining of those who hide behind multiple identities on a wiki page is something I do know you will strongly agree with me on? Awaiting your comment Bud

sincerely searchin man 23:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is true. I will continue to make correction based on the facts and not sound like a scratched record.

What I raised on searchin man discussion page, here; http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Searchin_man was the following. I am still waiting for either of them to refure any of these core BKWSU facts and beliefs and say, no, they are not true.

• why the BKWSU were at pains to cover up the Child Sex Abuse ring operating in at least two of Indian centers, including the headquarters of Madhuban, that sexually abused a number of young girls?
• why the pedophiles that committed these crimes were not reported to the police and brought to justice as, say, the Roman Catholic has finally starting to do?
• why they were allowed to remain in their positions for several years despite the problems being known?
• why they attempt to re-write the BKWSU sex abuse incident as a mere allegation rather than an actual incident and blame it on the child?
• why the BKWSU took great pains at a teachers training session in the Oxford Global Retreat Centre to attempt to cover up any connection between child sex abuse and the BKWSU - WITHOUT INFORMING THE BKWSU RAJA YOGA TEACHERS THAT SEXUAL ABUSE HAD ACTUALLY TAKEN PLACE? Noting that the BKWSU even wrote this down on the handouts.

I pointed out that Avyakt7 Riveros11 believes and teaches - which is what the BKWSU behind the facade is really all about - that;

• dinosaurs lived 2,500 years ago,
• that evolution is a constantly repeating and identical 5,000 year cycle (which God used to teach it was going to be all over in 1975/76)
• in less than 30 years we will be making babies without having sex, indeed that baby Krishna must be on his way any day now
• that 6 Billion are going to die during a Nuclear Holocaust to make way for their heaven on earth (although God used to teach there were only 5 Billion human souls)
• God possesses a little old Indian lady to meet his superior Brahmin caste only,
• everyone else on the planet are Shudras.
• I am surprised that they wanted to bring all this stuff up on this discussion page. 195.82.106.244 02:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You know Bud, I had harboured the faint hope I might hear from Talkabout, but seems like the ubiquitous 195.82.106.244 will have to do. 195.82.106.244', I don’t quite recall asking you to throw ever more of your queries about the BK on my Talk page any more than the abuse that accompanied them, and I certainly didn’t ask for them to be regurgitated here.

In any event I am not a BK, but I am someone who has taken a pile of spiritual benefit through association with the BK. I would also say that I’ve found spiritual insight elsewhere too including mainstream Christianity. However this has usually not been without the subtle underhand pressure to ‘convert’. Something that refreshingly, I have never experienced with the BK. You can come and go at will, take what you want, leave what you don’t.

You seem to believe that it is essential that the every detail of the BK philosophy remains entirely consistent with what it was as you experienced it first hand, which from your postings on the brahmakumaris.info forum, I reckon is at least 20 years ago. Where as I believe group spirituality as with an individuals’ spirituality should be allowed space to evolve.

The reason I have entered this discussion is because currently you alone, are responsible for almost all the content of the wiki listing on the BK. As many others have commented before me, I do not at all consider this a remotely satisfactory state of affairs, as your views are so jaundiced and the methods you use to ensure their total dominance are so deceitful, that quite frankly Bud, I would give my support to anyone that attempts to challenge you with a more reasonable and balanced stance.

Currently if anyone attempts more than the most trivial change to the wiki entry it immediately gets pulled down and the ‘perpetrator’ (unless of course it’s 195.82.106.244') is invited to discuss before making changes. When I first checked in around the end of August, the ‘Some inaccuracies in the article’ section was well under way.

It came to an abrupt closure when 89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 had his NPOV warning and citation request pulled down within hours if not minutes. His final posting in the discussion was then deleted by 195.82.106.244, only to be restored by myself a month later, and even that only after an abusive and threatening encounter with 195.82.106.244.

And just finally I notice 195.82.106.244 has just added some references under ‘OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition’. Am I to assume this is a belated counter to bkSimonb’s argument that that community moved to India at the request of relatives?

Whatever the case it is a complete misinterpretation of what the references actually say. In fact, they wholly support Simon’s point that the resistance and court injunctions against Om Mandali occurred shortly after the Yagya relocated to Karachi in 1937, not in 1950.

Talkabout it’s gone all Silentabout your end, but I’m asking you again Buddy, surely you can see clearly now that 195.82.106.244 is utterly unsuited to any further involvement in the editing of this Misplaced Pages article?

sincerely searchin man 14:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

• Fist point, "89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 had his NPOV warning and citation request" This was pulled by me as the Bibliography/References are available and was simply not warranted.
• Second point, it would appear that this page is harder to work on than say the Iraq War page due to the personalisation for the purpose of discouraging folks to participate. See, one can discuss a point without arguing the point.
• Third Point, 195.82.106.244 is not vandalising the discussion page. If you check you will see he is a little detail oriented on the wiki process, which I some times fall outside the lines and disregard. He wants it to look just right as per the wiki rules. Must be some left over post BK thing. No wonder this individual followed and continues to understand the BK philosophy. So, if I don't add enough :::: I later see it has been corrected.
• Fourth point, the article has had input and is checked by many recent ExBKs including Mr.Green, and others. Please don't make it seem as though it is just a few, as many have contributed to this page.
• 'Fifth point, I am personally thinking that perhaps you should keep the personal song and dance between you and 195.82.106.244 on your discussion pages and duel it out there. I take the time to contribute to other pages and see my time not spent wisely when I have to monitor this type of thing:” I won't argue the point, just tell 195.82.106.244 to leave the sand box...(paraphrasing here)". This is your intent, is it not?
• Six point, as pointed out by you; you are a part-timer and not one that followed the BK teachings in ernest. So, I would have to review points argued and check them, then side with the correct point. I do corrections and I have had to make my PEACE upon learning when siding too quickly with another and later having to eat my hat for doing so. Today I am not as quick.
• Seven Point, the personal Attacks and I have come to that conclusion are without merit. It would be the Old Poisoning the Well in logic and it doesn't bode well here. If you want to go toe to toe on points here than do so, without carrying on about the forums etc. Forums and site issues must be argued there. Please join one and start a thread there. You may even engage say "AndyH" if you are so lucky. One can dream.
• Eigth point, I actually have great admiration for Avyakt7 Riveros11 in that he is a thinker and is trying in all ernest to validate the cycle and put others questions to rest. This is more than I have seen from others that simply accept and go argue incessantly without trying to using logic, just dogma. I can appreciate that he has even developed a theory albeit with no science to prove it, but impressive!
• Ninth point, let us get back to the discussion that would lead us to an outcome and drop all the non sequiturs.TalkAbout AKA SilentAbout :) PEACE TalkAbout 16:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying Talkabout. Really appreciate it Bud. Below are my replies to each of the points raised by you as numbered above.

First point And I’m struggling already! 89.241.128.107 has raised over 40 citation requests at ]

a) Are you seriously telling me that you consider it acceptable, that he or anyone else that questions that accuracy of statement(s) within the article should be prepared to read the entire Bibliography section to find supporting evidence?

b) Having looked at the Bibliography section as it was at the time of the above edit. I simply cannot accept your assertion that many of the references 89.241.128.107 has requested are to be found there anyway!

Talkabout, I conclude that this is no proper way to edit a wiki article. Please comment.

Second Point I fully agree, but for some much harder than for others!

Third Point Sorry strongly disagree. Here are 2 examples of blatant vandalism of the discussion page by 195.82.106.244. ] ] And then following the threats and abuse on my Talk page re-vandalised here ]. Now here, you can swot up on the Wiki definition of Vandalism]

Can you compare and comment thanks.

Fourth Point Buddy you are making me work now!

(a) Below is a breakdown of the most recent 50 edits on the article between 25/8/06 and 3/10/06

- 195.82.106.244 made 25.

- Talkabout made 5.

- The remaining 20 edits were the work of 13 other editors.

- Of those 13, 8 had their edits entirely reverted mostly without discussion by either 195.82.106.244' or Talkabout.

- Of the 5 remaining editors the only one whose edit was other than a trivial grammatical change was Logic User. And his edit was a complete revert to Talkabout’s last edit!

Sure looks like complete and utter control in the hands of a very, very few to me!

(b) Ah interesting, so there is a behind the scenes ex-bk proof reading team? And by Mr Green, would that be user Green108 on the discussion page archive? Well if Green108 was a recent BK, then it doesn’t look like he paid too much attention. In his most recent entry he stonewalled BKSimonB over his attempts to elicit a minor change to the article whilst attempting to discredit the BK’s historian Jagdish Chandler as an unreliable reference. ] However, As I have already mentioned 195.82.106.244 has recently turned up independent historical references, , which fully support Chandlers record. The fact that 195.82.106.244 precises the above references quite erroneously, as evidence of ‘OM Mandali banned by Hindu pressure during Partition’ really says it all doesn’t it?

Comments please Bud.

Fifth Point Now don’t frighten me anymore there Talkabout, have you really looked at what’s he’s done to my Talkpage ], why next he might start publicly exposing my friends and family!

Sixth Point Ok, if this is by way of an apology for your previous dismissal of me, then I am genuinely encouraged by it.

Seventh Point Sorry, but after the abusive encounter Avyakt7 Riveros11 went through on the BKI forum, I’ve no desire to enter an arena where someone I believe to be 195.82.106.244 has full editorial powers stacked in his favour. And why go there anyway, when 195.82.106.244', who very possibly is the BKI forum administrator and is, despite his continual denials and cries of ‘personal attack’, already the overriding dominant force, and, I strongly suspect, not once but twice over in his multiple guises as 195.82.106.244' and brahamkumaris.info on this wiki page. If you need further proof of this, Avyakt7 Riveros11 can provide the full header information of the email transcripts he has received where an email from info@brahmakumaris.info is shown to originate from IP address 195.82.106.244.

As with the my vandalism concern please familiarise with the Wiki’s sockpuppet policy ] And get back to me on this

Eighth point Ok Bud, funny way of showing it at times, but as with point 6 that’s encouraging to know.

Nineth point Agreed, really that’s what I want to see too, however I feel the only way to encourage some of the other recent contributors such as "89.240.134.193/84.13.205.142 ,BKSimonB or Sethi to return to the discussion is when the vandalism, threats and sockpuppetry that so characterise 195.82.106.244’s aggressive editing style are removed. With regard to this, appreciate if you supply comments to my replies point by point as indicated. Thanks.

Sincerely searchin man 21:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Nice of you to reply point by point. I do thank you for the change in tone as I rather enjoy logical discussions. The light hearted approach is refreshing as in any discussion it helps to laugh; especially when we find out we are wrong! I will do the research and provide a reply. Here is a bit of homework for you since you know BkSimon, which Imam gave said edict which he mentioned. This may provide some opening in the point of discussion he so wished to open and I imagine he has been busy as he hasn’t returned.

So, I have a bit of home work to address from you and will do so. As to Green, well I will place the quick vandalism list so I can have a quick glance and can tell foe and friend. .....244 Moved that:(! See, I receive no favors there, so I am in neutral territory and to answer the question yes I do rely on research or other sources but like the jailed reporters I will not reveal my sources. The point which you did not address but requested earlier, is the Murli point….correct but the word usage of “Mounting a Virgin” in modern day language could be misunderstood. That was my point there!

Your reply will be forth coming and hopefully well researched. Say, do you have any points my way in the change about the occupation of the founder? I need a little help on this one. I still haven’t given up and I am awaiting a reply to that one myself.

So, yea suffer not alone as my page has three helpful hints, but alas I take note that .244 is very detailed and wiki FUZZY and I take it with a grain of salt. I personally left it up there as it just shows a bit of character.

There is the story of a builder, with whom no one raised a question. One day the man set out to build a very large building and kept saying Right, the crew repeated Right and the final crew member told the builder Right! Well, at the end of the day they found themselves inside a circle…not a square (no door to be found) and unable to get out. Finally they raised a question, discussed their problem, compromised and one stood on another and hoisted the third man out. The moral here is, if we agreed upon every thing from a BK point of view we too would find ourselves in a circle (Advertisement/Self Promotion) and unable to tell truth from belief. I have respect for an individuals beliefs but hold more dear the idea of the Right to Information.

PEACETalkAbout 23:04, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

FYI, see while I was posting your reply .244 went in and wikified….your entry. This unfortunately it is not VANDALISM, it is an obsessive compulsive wikiFUZZY condition!lol Please NOTE the place has some devoted to this very mission!:)As promised I will look into those mentioned but having seen some I think we have a case of wikiFUZZY and not vandalism. TalkAbout 23:16, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Point of information before I respond; you state "publicly exposing my friends and family". I only mentioned Luis Riveros use of his workplace computers to promote the religious cult he is a member of which is against the University of South Florida's regulations. Is he - because it was not "they" as you state - your friend or your family?

The thing about the objective facts of history is that they do not change whether they are last week or 100 years ago. As someone that has sat down and read years worth of Jagdish Chander's works, which I am pretty sure you have not, to call him a "historian" is laughable. He was the Vishwa Vidyala's publicist. Adi Dev is PR.

If Jagdish Chander was a historian, why ever did he write out of history - and Adi Dev - the failed 1976 End of the World/Destruction prediction? Lekhraj Kirpalani's attempt to give away all the money in the Yagya to the Government of India if the predictions did fail etc? Why did Jagdish Chander engage in the re-writing of Gyan and the Yagya's history from that date along with the other Seniors including the re-editing of the Murlis (God's Words)? Did you ever go to Morning Class? If you doubt any of these facts, go back to Waddy and check them out. She is perfect aware of them and the re-writing.

And, lastly, before you go ahead call everybody "Bud", Bud, get to grips with whether you are talking to a man or a woman. Frankly, I am finding your sexually patronizing, body-consciousness fixation with me a little offensive, in the same manner as a pestering drunk at a bar. Yes, I know they are machines but women can use computers too these days. ( ... file under "all hat and no cattle").

Thank you. 195.82.106.244 23:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Corporeal Founder's occupation and Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram,

Hi.

well, thank goodness someone can actually ask intelligent questions about factual content instead of continuing on the unsubstantiated slur against me.

With regards to the corporeal founder's occupation, here is a picture of the actually premises in Calcutta that Lekhraj Kirpalani did business from;

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_050.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_048.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_036.jpg

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/search/?title=Image:Picture_042.jpg

I am not so sure about all of the hyperbole. It does not really look that big or glamorous a location . FYI, Sindh is a geographic area not caste. Sindhis are only Hindis that live in the Sindh/Pakistan and of any caste. He and they are not upper class, the Bhaiband were merchants, which makes them 3rd class , had a reputation from being misogynistic and debauched, and were into money primarily. I have citations. There is a old Gujerati saying that, "if you are walking along a road and meet a Cobra snake and Sindhi, kill the Sindhi first". If it is a big issue and has to change, we need to get to primary sources and not just BKWSU PR. I bet most BK don't know half of what is up there.

Lekhraj may have been atypically religious but the fact is he was a business man and not a out of a religious caste. It appears that he was also self-made and not out of a rich family. It might be important to say that he was not not poor or ordinary because the Murlis say the chariot of God was. This is a controversial issue that the PBKs will raise at some point. The predictions suggest that Lekhraj was not the first nor the final medium of Shiva and the BKWSU have written out of history Lekhraj’s business partner, Sevak Ram who also played a part in the founding of the Yagya.

• Can we get to actual figures of his wealth and size of estate? The BKWSU are quiet on that front. It could be public record and family of his still alive.

Personally, I think it is such a non-issue. What is so bad about being in business? It is the fact. 195.82.106.244 01:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

.244,

First point, the HP Shack is not called a shack albeit it isn't a full garage. It is called a garage, many have seen the photo and realise that it may very well be impossible to park a car there but it is still called garage. My point being is that in those times that may well have been an illustrious business location for the founder. After all the term location, location is termed by the position and the money/business one can make in said location.

Second Point, his daughter wore a sari once and discarded it off to the servants. This was a story told in the early days by the Elder Brothers and thus illustrates his wealth. A sari being six yards long and if made of the finest silk could pass through a ring without any effort.

Third point, not every jeweler can trade in diamonds....please check this. I do believe it has merit, the photos do show that he was very well groomed and not your average business man.

PEACETalkAbout 16:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

We are talking about India around the turn of the 19th/20th Century. I have no idea if they had a Diamond Bourse in Calcutta or any business regulations whatsoever. Calcutta was only one outlet, where else did he trade from? I think it is a non-issue. Lekhraj was a businessman and so that sticks. Personally, I think a proper biography would be very interesting but, in my opinion, the BKWSU are just too busy re-writing him as a dead saint or guru to want to bother document the human aspect, his relationship with Sevak Ram and Sevak's part in the evolution of the organization etc.

For example, why all those angelic pictures of Lekhraj despite Shiva's Murlis saying "no pictures" ? Its a contradiction of their faith. Or the BK Faith is a contradiction of Shiva's teachings. 195.82.106.244 13:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

195.82.106.244 continues to attack me without proof

Dear 195.82.106.244,

As I mentioned before I have not posted from any University of South Florida computer.' Want proof? Please do check all IP addresses where I have posted from. For your information, USF is a B class network. Their IP range starts with 131.X.X.X I have not posted from any IP which belongs to that range. .244 You are acting maliciously. Here is my first warning to you Please see Misplaced Pages's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. according to wikipedia rules. Please check your statements specially if they relate to the integrity of others. You are disclosing my full name and accusing me of something which is not true. --avyakt7 17:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"She's attacking me ... she attacking me ... ". No one is interested. Actually, it was 216.49.220.27 which is the International Academy of Design & Technology - Tampa . Do you teach there too? I suppose I could write to them and have them confirm BUT the article is about the BKWSU not you, so let's focus.

BTW, someone else was using the same IP address around the same time to post REALLY CRAZY stuff on the Adolf Hitler page, see . So I hope that was not you. And if it was not, I would have a word with someone at the faculty there to put an end to it.

This is becoming silly. When are you BKs going to tire of trying to trying to attack my integrity and just deliver some hard documentation? Thanks. 195.82.106.244 01:26, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Greetings to both Avyak7 and 195.82.106.244 ,

Please let us stop the Bk vs ExBK thing here, you two are behaving like former spouses! From my point of view Avyak7 started off by trying to expose folks on an anonymous forum, several times here. Then when 195.82.106.244 pointed out it was not the thing to do, the throttle was thrown into full gear....then the complaints came in. Avyak7, I have not seen your name here in full print. RELAX!

So, perhaps we need to drop this and go on to the questions/discussions at hand. Oh, Avyakt7 I just want to say that if we cool it for a bit, things will get back to some semblance of reason here. If you keep bringing it up, folks might just figure out what I haven't. Best leave it. 195.82.106.244 Please see that at this point, if Avyak7 should try and disclose anything it is best that I reply to said concerns as he is upset. Some times we start a fire and then it gets away from us and so we must put it out no matter where it started!

So, let us all forgive and forget and continue. TalkAbout 17:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, it is ] not .244. And secondly, for the sake of accuracy, in response to their constant pestering and not backing off, I posted his name a few inches up the page. So more accuracy please.

Thanks Bud, but I am not asking for mediation. 195.82.106.244 23:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Miss 195.82.106.244,

I will be certain to post your full numbers. Sorry, to have offended you dear Miss ;however, I still think it is best that I handle any future disclosures from Avyakt7. Missed the name. I will look for it and remove it once found.

PEACE TalkAbout 23:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV, Discussions

• Please state your discussions, points, no personal attacks, or rantings!
• Stick to the points you are saying are not correct.
• Provide evidence to support said staments.
• Engage in polite discussion, no accusatory remarks.
• If you are part of the BKWSU TECHNOLOGY TEAM effort please state so.
• NO requests for personal e-mails, as an effort to suss/expose people.

TalkAbout 15:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it?" Avyak7

• “UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”
• User 195.82.106.244 continues to attack me personally despite first warning

Dear 195.82.106.244,

Here is my second warning to you and thus , I will add the required tag "np3" Please do not make personal attacks on other people. Misplaced Pages has a policy against personal attacks. In some cases, users who engage in personal attacks may be blocked from editing by administrators or banned by the arbitration committee. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Please resolve disputes appropriately. Thank you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki /WP:NPA#Consequences “Posting a link to an external source that fits the commonly-accepted threshold for a personal attack, in a manner that incorporates the substance of that attack into Misplaced Pages discussion.” I do not appreciate either that you suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler. I will follow the steps that are stipulated in Misplaced Pages about this matter.

You have also changed the original title posted by TalkAbout. It was “UN intervention for avyakt7 and 195.82.106.244.”

Yes, that is correct. I checked and there was no intervention on behalf of the United Nations - and it was an attempt at personal Mediation - and so I corrected that.

Indeed, this also raises the issue of BKWSU own exaggerated connection with the United Nations - of which the United Nations has cautioned the BKWSU - and that is an issue that we ought to investigate with proper citations at a later date.

If you read above, you will see that I clearly did not "suggest that I could have written an article about Hitler", I stated accurately that someone using the same IP address as you contributed the article on Adolf Hitler. As it is an educational facility that you work in, I suggested that you raise the serious misuse of IT equipment to the faculty members.

If it is a personal attack, would that also not mean that what you started and are continuing to doing is also an ad hominem attack designed to discredit any critical revellations based on citation, e.g. references to your own comments on "the bombs are ready ... they will be used" etc?

" 7) We, humans will destroy our planet. We have the means to do it now. Our technology “know how” have created the atomic bomb. Many countries have them. The bombs will be used. " Citations: grouptopic.com, space.com, infidelguy.com. fullcontactpoker.com

I think that it is fairly clear to onlookers that where you are coming from and what you are attempting to do. Your belief in a 5,000 year Cycle of time and "Destruction" as defined by the BKWSU. You start and continue an attack and then accuse another's defense to that attack using legalistic argument targetting the individual to distract for the internal reports they are leaking. It is very common cultic behavior and I caution you to refer back to your Senior Sisters for Shrimat before proceeing with this matter because ultimately it will only reflect badly on the organization, see . If you want to reflect well on the organization, my suggest is to co-operate on revealling and allowing access to the sources, citations and references from within your organization; starting with the Murlis. Thank you. 195.82.106.244 15:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout,

Please see my name above in 195.82.106.244 response to “searchin man.” Please see “searchin man” talk page as well. I know you can edit things out whenever you wish.. Do I need to ask you for permission to do the same?

195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo. I am certain that that is not true. I have substantial evidence for this. Do you want me to disclose it? This information is relevant to this wikipedia article, since it demonstrates that 195.82.106.244 is not a “non-biased” editor and thus, 244 is not qualified to write about Brahma Kumaris in an impartial manner. I needed to disclose that information here because is relevant to this article.

On the other hand, 195.82.106.244 discloses my real full name here and in another user talk page, threatens to contact the faculty at USF (my previous employer), searches and publishes about my personal information which is non relevant to this article. See the difference, TalkAbout? Finally.. I am not upset at all. All I want is for this article to be an accurate reflection of Brahma Kumaris, would you let BKs have an input on this article? avyakt7

avyakt7,

Look if you want to continue this, I imagine I can not stop you. As far as to any membership in a forum being a reason for disqualifying him/her from participating in activities on wikipedia I would like to point out the following. No individual is to be singled out...sussed out as a means to discredit his/her participation on a wiki. They could very well be members of the Gay BK forum and it wouldn’t make a grand difference here. Discuss the points here, point by point. Forum issues take to the forum, go to the OZ forum, go to the infogami blog.

• From my point, I see there is no real open space for discussion in the OZ forum run by the BKs which you are a member of.
• I don't see your theory up there (OZ forum), nor it being discussed by other members.
• It appears to me that other active BKs are doing well and good in the BKinfo forum. It serves not only XBKs, but PBKs, active BKs , folks seeking spiritual discussions and NBKs (folks just wanting information, including journalists).
• So, if they have a wide array of folks, why the problems? I did put in a second request to have you approved, but I will send in another asking it to be withdrawn given your goal, which would be to have individuals banned from wikipedia.
• I see that the problems on the forum and Here started when you began to pick/squabble with other members on both venues.
• I see that despite the fact that you bit off more than you can chew, you are still dead set on this (personalising things).

Do you think it would be fair to remove yours but leave his/hers up? Will you refrain from further activities to EXPOSE others. This is going the way of scientology in my view. I don't think threatening exposure, attacking the person rather than the substance/points merits well from a scholarly point of view and it is destructive to the process of communication/participation and good will.

I have the highest respect for people following their spiritual beliefs, having gone down that road myself and this process is to place the facts out there and let the individual decide on the path they are taking or if they want to continue on such path. Is also an information source for people on a global level that seek information on said organization. You shouldn't fear information, you shouldn't be fearful of the tenets being in the open, nor the practices. The higher road would be for example: Yes, we do belief we will be deities and yes we believe X and Y. Rather than trying to hide the sun with your thumb. Suppression of information is not wise nor a scholarly path.

I will ask you these three questions directly:

• Do you believe you will be a deity?
• Do you believe you are superior to others here on this planet because you are a Brahmin Soul?
• Do you believe God speaks/is channeled via Dadi Gulzar in Mt. Abu?

Your reply to these three questions above will be the test of your stated will and intentions towards the others you have issues with here for me. PEACE TalkAbout 15:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

avyakt7 states, "195.82.106.244 expressed that he didn’t have no affiliation with BKinfo ".

You mean, "did not have any". What I said according to the Misplaced Pages archive was;

"I have absolutely no representative powers over any other contributor nor the website http://brahmakumaris.info. To the best of my awareness there is nothing that you could say constitutes a team effort, or if there is I am not party to it. I take personal benefit from and contribute to the above mentioned website, on an ad hoc basis, but to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing that would constitute a team or organization effort or again, if there is, I am not aware of any. If pressed, I could tell you very little about any contributor to http://brahmakumaris.info other than what they have made public on that or the previous xBKChat.com forum and prefer it that way. Personally, I would say it is all in the public domain now."

Accuracy over slur, please. 195.82.106.244

First Warning and answer

1.Points: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased. Please demonstrate that user .244 the main author of this BK page is not affiliated with BKINFO. Because if HE IS: Then as the NPOV tags show: a)This article is bias. Please demonstrate the opposite. b)This article is using plenty of "weasel words" such as: "B.K.s believe that their god " Shiva Baba ","mediumistic female followers known as " Sandeshputris " or trance messengers helped add to their spiritual knowledge through psychic visions and allegedly direct contact with God.", "The version made more vague and palatable to Westerners is found here." This just an small sample on the first paragraph.The use of these words are non-scholar and bias; inappropriate for an on-line encyclopedia.

c)The article about BK does not comply with VERIFIABILITY according to WIKIPEDIA rules: "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible." Please show the citations. DO not use BK literature for this, since it does not fit this requirement: ("We may not use primary sources whose information has not been made available by a reliable publisher. See Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability") and (Use sources who have postgraduate degrees or demonstrable published expertise in the field they are discussing. The more reputable ones are affiliated with academic institutions. The most reputable have written textbooks in their field: these authors can be expected to have a broad, authoritative grasp of their subject. In general, higher education textbooks are frequently revised and try to be authoritative.) Please demonstrate this in your article use these kind of citations rather than websites which do not follow this requirement. In your article to put something like: "Use of Violence: The sight of heavy stick wielding BK “brothers” is a common sight at large BK events. Police reports exist of said BKs kidnapping PBKs in cars, removing them to a distant location and “beating them black and blue”. In one incident, PBKs were beaten so “mercilessly” that they had to be admitted in hospital. In others even elderly women were manhandled. As similar events have taken place across India from Karnatak to Haryana. Police complaints were been filled, the BKs in one incident plea-bargaining in response..." and to put a link to a BKINFO site violates this rule, you are not using reliable sources as defined by WIKIPEDIA and it is obviously malicious.

These are just examples. Please respond to them. By taking the NPOV tag off the article, you are not following WIKIPEDIA rules. This is a warning to you. It will be followed up with WIkipedia admins if you don't stop this vandalism.

I am sure others will post their issues with this article. Now is the time.

72.91.151.117 Avyakt7

Please address the discussion Mr. avyakt7

avyakt7, I will ask you these three questions directly:

• Do you believe you will be a deity?
• Do you believe you are superior to others here on this planet because you are a Brahmin Soul?
• Do you believe God speaks/is channeled via Dadi Gulzar in Mt. Abu?

Your reply to these three questions above will be the test of your stated will and intentions towards the others you have issues with here for me. PEACE TalkAbout 22:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout: Is this the best you can do? We are talking about this article in wikipedia (Brahma Kumaris). My personal website, is that.. my own business. Please concentrate on responding to the questions about user .244 involvement with BKINFO. Thank you. I will be more than glad to respond to your questions not related with this article once I am allowed to take part on the BKINFO forum.

Sincerely, AVYAKT7 72.91.151.117

72.91.151.117avyakt7 Riveros 11, ET All,

OK Brahmin soul...I will State your case. Frankly, the OZ forum site was useless to me. No thinkers or perhaps not allowed to think. Now, as I concentrate here on what wisdom I shall plead for you, I first want an agreement that you will behave....as far as I can see Brother this is not Deity behavior by any means. I have great respect for BKsimon and others. I guess you have noted that even some heavy hitters from the BK World have joined. See, if you just limit the HOT temper you can have Great Churning sessions over there too. Albeit I may have to pray...meditate or elevate the thought process as this is no simple task you are requesting here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, what say you...Brahmin Soul? Yes, you will stop the personalisations and sussing out folks? I am sure some of the BK Souls would enjoy your company. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 23:17, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

72.91.151.117avyakt7 Riveros 11, ET All,

You used your site for a purpose and thus made it public that you are PRO BK and even have a site set up for PR for said beliefs. So, I thought it (your site) of value as it shows great devotion to the FAITH and resources too. The questions I raised have every thing to do with this article. See, we have just brushed the surface and you must admit that most have been kind in doing so. Some of these beliefs are not yet in the full public view. But alas you raise a good point....

• Are you ashamed of said tenets/beliefs?
• Do you fear redicule for having said beliefs?
• Should we explore these and add them to the article?

See, throwing the stone and hiding the hand doesn't work. You only raised more questions than you gave answers. Let the truth set you free. Please note that I have placed my final request on your behalf...from here on you will have to be a forth right Brahmin Soul and place said requests on your own. PEACE/PLEASE/PEACE TalkAbout 00:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

      Dear TalkAbout,
     I really like your style...No Kidding, you have class! I love the truth. That is Brahmin Behavior. 
     Do you realize that .244 has been misrepresenting  his affiliation with BKINFO? Do you realize that you are 
     supporting that behavior? See, a couple of lines is just enough. Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7

Talkabout, I'm afraid it is you who is not addressing the discussion - see 'Searchin Man Complaint' section. This article is clearly under the control of a vandal and sockpuppeteer. Now at the very least those with a different POV should be allowed to display an NPOV warning. Please discontinue from vandalising the NPOV warning. searchin man 07:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man, Now, lets not be hasty, I said I would reply to your points and I will. I am seeking others intervention here as I honestly think I do not want to get in the middle of the activities that I do not approve of. First, Avyak7 ET All are in research mode. As to your request, it is under advicement. As said I will get to it, in due time. I realise time is an issue for you and will note that. Trying to Rattle me doesn't speed up the process. As, I recall I gave you some home work to address as well...!

So, before I continue please give me your honest word that you are not Avyak7! You will recieve your requested reply as well...in due time. You do still want that? If not please state that as well. As to an NPOV notice...because Avyak7 placed it there due to his personal issues is not warrented. I had higher hopes of communication with you but see it is the Ole Bully Pulpit at work here by the followers of the Brahma Kumaris. :( PEACE TalkAbout 08:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

TalkAbout stop removing the NPOV tag

Stop taking the NPOV tag from the article

Dear Talkabout,

This is Avyakt7. Please have .244 address all issues regarding the Brahma Kumaris talk page.
It is clear now that  user .244 has been misrepresenting facts.
Please do not try to go around this issue.' This is very important.
If you continue taking the NPOV tag off the article you will be setting an example of vandalism.
Yourself and .244 are not the only ones who can edit this page. An NPOV warning is not even changing
the contents of the biased Brahma Kumaris article, it is just stating that some of us do not agree
with it and that we would like to reach a consensus about it. Enough proof has been given. 

Your loyalty to .244 is admirable, but please be reasonable, there has been a lie there, do not try to cover it. 72.91.151.117

Proof which demonstrates user 195.82.106.244 is part of the "team effort" on the BKINFO forum

Dear 195.82.106.244 ,

You still continue to modify my previous posts. You have gone too far and I will continue to follow Misplaced Pages procedures regarding the accuracy of this article. Please check out this Misplaced Pages official policy. http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Assume_good_faith

Please note:” This policy does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include vandalism, sockpuppetry, and lying.”

Your actions and ways clearly fit the above.

User 195.82.106.244 is the main editor of this article which refers to Brahma Kumaris. User 195.82.106.244 is against this institution (Brahma Kumaris.)

I have a strong suspicion that 195.82.106.244 also posts as “Ex-L” in another forum, namely brahmakumaris.info. Ex-L, and most of the others on the forum including the administrator who write the news articles, are clearly against Brahma Kumaris as well.

Therefore, user 195.82.106.244 should not be allowed to have “sole proprietorship” of this article, as he or she appears to be trying very hard to maintain, which in fact is hurting the Brahma Kumaris institutional image.

User 195.82.106.244 has denied in this page any involvement with the Brahmakumaris.info (BKINFO) site. However, consider this: (Evidence from circumstancial to strong)

1)The writing style of “Ex-L” and compare it with 195.82.106.244 writing style.

2)There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to Brahma Kumaris centers requesting for copies of the organization “scriptures” (Murlis). The email header is below: Please note the source of it. (195.82.106.244

Received: from (helo=) by node-2.minx.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.60) envelope-from <info@brahmakumaris.info>) id 1GOZCu-000162-LL for centres@brahmakumaris.info; Sat, 16 Sep 2006 13:23:41 +0100

3) There is an email which was sent by BKINFO to members of their forum. (which I can provide) A part of it states: “There is also an "up and download" section in progress that includes many Murlis, here;

http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html

including an Anonymous dropbox for anyone that wants to provide news or information. No name or password required to enter.

Thank you all for your help and keep up the good work!”

THIS A VERY STRONG EVIDENCE:

This link: http://www.brahmakumaris.info/indexw.html is a link to an anonymous ftp server which resides in the following IP address: 195.82.106.244

It can be accessed by going this way: ftp://195.82.106.244 or http://195.82.106.244

THEREFORE; THERE IS A CONCRETE AND UNDENIABLE DIRECT LINK BETWEEN BKINFO AND USER 195.82.106.244 . He is part of their "TEAM EFFORT."

User 195.82.106.244 is running a server on that IP address. With a normal scan, that IP address will not show the current open ports since the server has been firewalled. However, with a more sophisticated scan when icmp packets are not used, that IP address has the following ports open : FTP, HTTP and PPTP. I have a hard copy of the scan I run on that IP address as a proof of this. I can email it to anyone who doubts the certainty of this proof.(avyakt7ATyahoo.c..)

I expect that user 195.82.106.244 will disable these features as soon as he or she reads this message. Please note: This is a concrete, strong and real proof of user 195.82.106.244 clear involvement with the BKINFO forum and probably also its administration. Something which this user has denied all along.

For those who believe that "pictures speak a thousand words", please check these ones: http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo1.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo2.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo3.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo4.JPG http://godhascome.org/img/bkinfo5.JPG

My point is: It should be no doubt now that user 195.82.106.244 is clearly and undoubtedly involved with a forum which is antagonistic to Brahma Kumaris, thus this article for which he or she is the main contributor and is clearly biased.

These are the facts as I see them.

THEREFORE, after reading Misplaced Pages standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Neutral_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Handling_NPOV_disputes

"When all NPOV-related issues detailed on the talk page have been handled, the template should be removed from the article or category page. In most cases, however, the least cumbersome way of handling NPOV concerns would be to improve the article or the category description, so that it is no longer POV."

Thus: Please take a look at this link:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

  Unless there is proof that user 195.82.106.244  does not have any affiliation with   BKINFO 

AND the article is discussed here by consensus to dismiss the tags below, NPOV tags need to be placed in this article. NPOV tags will be placed in the Brahma Kumaris article which I will revert back as many times as necessary if changed until further proof is shown in this talk page. This is necessary in order not to mislead readers by making them believe that this is in fact an accurate description of Brahma Kumaris. The following tags are appropriate for this article:

• NPOV
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and advocacy:http://en.wikipedia.org/Advocacy
• http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words

Also, it is very important to comply with this regulation: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Information_suppression

User .244 has not observed wikipedia standards. These are the points which user 195.82.106.244 has been neglecting:

   * Biased or selective representation of sources, eg:
         o Explaining why evidence supports one view, but under-representing (even deleting) opposing views in order to make an opinion appear more accepted/rejected than it really is.
         o Making one's own opinion look superior by omitting points against it, comparing it instead with low quality arguments for other POV's (strawman tactics), or not presenting the other as best it can be.
         o Finding fault with some opposing evidence (usually the easiest to attack, and often not a neutral assessment), and using that (again as a strawman) to dismiss or ignore other (often stronger) evidence.
         o Selectively citing a source or ignoring important caveats and limitations, in order to make a source appear to support a view or conclusion that is more extreme than the plain reading of the source implies. (Ie, trying to make a source say more than it actually says)
   * Variable or double standards, eg:
         o Citing lower quality evidence for one side but rejecting credible opposing evidence as inadequate.
         o Minimizing, trivializing or ignoring other citations that call one's opinion into question or that support alternative views.
   * Editing as if one given opinion is "right" and therefore other opinions either have no substance, or nothing to defend themselves with, and using this as a reason to under-represent it:
         o Generalizing an opinion held by "some" or "many" as if it is held by "all" (or "all credible") sources, while treating an opposing view as not being held by anyone credible.
         o Ignoring an opposing view, question or discussion point on the basis that those upholding it are claimed to be misinformed.
         o Not allowing one view to "speak for itself", or refactoring its "world-view" into the words of its detractors.
         o Ignoring or deleting views, research or information from sources which would usually be considered credible and verifiable in Misplaced Pages terms. (This may be done on spurious grounds such as not being "valid enough")
         o Concealing or misrepresenting (or non-neutrally representing) relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to judge their value.

User 195.82.106.244 please demonstrate what it has been asked above.. and I have a back up of this post, just in case you thought about deleting it.

Best Regards,

avyakt7

Thank you

Thank you for the best advertizement that we have been given in a long time, Luis.

Would any individuals interested in reading BK Raja Yoga teachings in their original form called the Murlis, please log in anonymously and download them from the address given above before the BKWSU tries to shut the server down.

I expect our traffic to increase significantly. 195.82.106.244 00:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

You are very Welcome!

Dear 195.82.106.244, It surprises me to know that you will not shutdown "Rumpus"! How about changing the link so your IP does not appear? SO now that your traffic will increase (I would like to see a copy of your "awstats" or perhaps "urchin"?)perhaps you will need to explain the meaning of the Murlis too...otherwise, all those souls downloading things will not have a clue of what is going on...Just a suggestion... oh yeah.. if they get stuck in "the cycle"... please pass them my way...You know how to find me. Now we know that you are capable of misrepresenting facts in order to post in WIKIPEDIA. Shall we trust you? Best Wishes, 72.91.151.117 Avyakt7

Reverting NPOV warning

Please note that an NPOV warning means that the neutrality of the article is disputed and is not a statement as to whether the article is or isn't neutral in itself. It is very clear from this discussion page that there is a dispute about the neutrality of the article and it is therefore inappropriate to remove the warning box from the article. The box should remain until all sides reach a consensus or a decision is made through arbitration. Any attempt to tamper with the box otherwise is an act of vandalism.

Please be advised accordingly 62.5.178.58 12:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Soul,

Thank you for your input. What you just said is consistent with Misplaced Pages rules. BTW, I don't have any relationship with this IP coming from Russia.

Best Wishes,

72.91.151.117 avyakt7

62.5.178.58,

The persons placing said NPOV are doing so as to cause....problems and to Bully people into not reveal the tenets/beliefs/practices etc.

You are problably part of this team as well....as avyakt7 seems to know who you are.

In addition avyakt7 and others are in the process of trying to intimidate anyone that places the truth. I would have more respect for someone taking it point by point rather than simply BEING A GANG OF BULLIES. Not very Academic and not very University like!

PEACE TalkAbout 15:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear TalkAbout ;

Please keep your cool. Here is my first tag to you. Here is a link to a wikipedia article that you may need to be aware of: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Staying_cool_when_the_editing_gets_hot To suggest: "Being a GANG of Bullies" is insulting and is not appropriate language in WIKIPEDIA. On more thing, If I say "I do not know this person" That is exactly what I meant.

72.91.151.117

OK. I am cool about analysing all this stuff.

The little bit that you are failing to do is offer any contrary information to suggest that the BKWSU does not teach the dinosaurs existed 2,500 years ago, God speaks to only them via a little old Indian lady or the world is going to end via a Nuclear Holocaust any minute, and you cannot escape that because you know it is all true. So what is your beef about?

Please be specific what elements you consider to be ;

• NPOV
• Weasel words
• Non-compliant.

It is a very broad, detailed and well-referenced article. I cannot see any factual errors. There have been endless citations in support on this Discussion page.

• The only thing I see missing is accurate accounting for the cult's worldwide financial status and charitable giving, especially in India. This really is down to you BK followers to provide those.

I am removing the tags from both this page and the topic page; a) because such tags don't belong on the discussion page and, b) you have not actually substantiated which data you are referring to. Otherwise it just looks like you are throwing enough shit until some of it sticks.

Thanks. 195.82.106.244 00:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

72.91.151.117, Riveros, Avyak7 etc etc,

Here is my reply.

I do not want to know, how you gained access to the site. I am only interested in discussion of the points, not any thing else. I don't have personal issues with you but I have tried to be of help to no end. Now, I won't reveal the back workings here, but I think from an academic point this approach is not wise. I do think it is of no point to discuss private matters in public, but I think you get the gist. Please do not contact me via e-mail to try and suss out who I know or what my interest is.

Since you are using multiple IPPs and I can't trust even with whom I am having discussions with...duality moment here. As to being insulted, please give a good explanation of what is going on here. The attempt to erase the facts, choosing to continue in arguments rather than discuss the points. I have had a better time in discussions of medicine than here. I don't want to waste my time in engaging in attacks of the person rather than the issues. So, unless you are going to take up a point to discuss (other than individuals) than I have no further communication. The idea of the technology team being based in FLORIDA is not lost on me. I am willing to state the following:

• Do you believe you will be a deity? No, I do not.
• Do you believe you are superior to others here on this planet because you are a Brahmin Soul? No, I don't see my self as superior to others.
• Do you believe God speaks/is channeled via Dadi Gulzar in Mt. Abu? No, I do not, I think the PBKs are onto some thing, in that GOD can be found in your own room. See, not hard at all to do! As, to trying to have me BLOCKED when the TEAM is in working to place NPOVs yet admitting that they are not questioning the validity...is too transparent. I will start meditating and ask that some force of Eternal Peace come upon this approach soon. As I have stated in the past, if after someone has the facts and chooses the PATH, I have nothing but respect for them and give them my full blessings/good thoughts/Be honored in that they are true to their quest. My background you see is in the freedom and access to information....that is the only GRAND motivating factor here. Be true to your beliefs! PEACE/LOVE/PEACE TalkAbout 00:52, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This Discussion as been archived without a remotely adequate response to my '9 point reply', in the Searchin Man Complaint section which provided substantial, unequivocal evidence that the article this discussion refers to is in the absolute control of 195.82.106.244, a sock puppeteer who has continually misled over his identity(s)and a vandaliser of the comments of others, with an extremely jaundiced opinion of the Brahma Kumaris. The need for an NPOV warning could not be more stark. searchin man 01:37, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

No need to panic your reply is not forgotten, simply click the little cabinet. See, BKsimon filed his talk page in the cabinet and no one said a word, including you. So, relax it is there and I have a copy of it and the other matter yet to be addressed. I send you good thoughts. Oh, be more specific as I have more young ones than old ones. PEACETalkAbout 01:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

searchin man,

Do to your commencing on Personal Attacks your reply will be addressed to the community and not to you directly. Debasing the level of interation is unwarranted and frankly below standards of common communication. Trying to suss out wiki members by a hit or miss approach is not too SpiritualTalkAbout 02:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Focus on the article

I am in no way connected to BKWSU, either pro or con, and I have no interest in changing that. I am a long-time Wikipedian, and an admin, and I want this page to move toward an acceptable encyclopedia article. The reasons for the NPOV and other tags must be delineated, no matter how blindingly obvious someone might think the reasons are. Those issues must then be addressed, either by proper citations, or by removing unsubstantiated claims from the article. The real-world identity or beliefs of any of the contributors to this article are completely irrelevant. This discussion/talk page is not the appropriate place to discuss those questions. Use this page to discuss the encyclopedia article only. –RHolton≡– 01:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the voice of reason, at last! 195.82.106.244 01:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I have restored the POV tag to the article. Do not remove it until things have been resolved. The other tags may also be restored if specific reasons are shown--but in general, one tag at a time seems sufficient. –RHolton≡– 02:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

RHolton, thanks for dropping by and I really appreciate you restoring the NPOV tag. It’s a small step towards fairness, but if it survives the night then it will be a significant one, as it will easily be the most substantial edit to do so other than that made by 244 or Talkabout, since I’ve been looking in.

I am not best placed to discuss the article content. I am not a member of the BK nor an ex member. However, my support for the NPOV was because others who were qualified to contest the articles content and attempted to do so, where either stonewalled by proven sockpuppets or had their comments removed from the discussion section and their citation requests pulled down. I have supplied detailed links of examples of where I saw this happening, in a 9 point reply to the user Talkabout in the Searchin Man complaint section of the Sept – Oct 2006 discussion archive. searchin man 03:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)