Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:02, 30 October 2006

I've heard it said that the style of outfits worn by Christian nuns reflects what would be typical for a mourning widow to wear at the time the order was created. Is there substance to this? --Elijah 20:10, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)

First off let me explain that I am Greek Orthodox with a fairly extensive knowledge in this area, however, that does not apply to Roman Catholic monastics. Hopefully a member of the Catholic Church will answer this more fully.

Orthodox Monastics do not have orders. They trace the beginnings of monasticism and monastic garb back to the 1st century in the Egyptian desert. From an Orthodox point of view, the reason monks and nuns wear black is because they are dead to the world. The modern Orthodox monastic garb is not much different that monastic garb of the 1st century. The robe is often wool, qualifying it as a "hair" shirt. The Schema that is worn by advanced monastics represents the chains that ascetics would wear to chastise the flesh. Phiddipus 23:18, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Elijah, basically yes, that is how religous habits got going in the Western Church. DaveTroy 9 Dec 2005

habit?

Some types of Catholic nuns wear habits and others just wear normal civilian attire. I'm not sure what the distinctions are; can anyone explain?

Each community sets its own rules. Some kept a full habit, some a modified habit, some no habit.DaveTroy 21:04, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The community I belong to, as a religous sister, was founded by Elizabeth Seton, who continued to wear "widows weeds" as she moved into becoming a founder of a religious community. Vatican II mandated religious communities to go back to their original roots, their original mission, and distinguish between accretions and essentials. In going back, one of the things we noticed was that founders of religious communities wore the dress of the day. The dress became a cherished point of identification among congregations but with the mandate of Vatican II and a dollup of common sense and a stronger mission focus, appearance became less important than being who we say we are and doing what we say we're about. As D Troy indicates, each congregation's rule, determined in chapter sessions of the members, determines how the individual religious institute handles identification.

However for the most part, and I can think of very few exceptions, nuns as opposed to sisters, still wear the habit. The latest trend these days is that congregations that still wear a habit get the lions share of new vocations. The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia for one had 17 postulants this year. And loking through forums etc. Most of the young people discerning say they have no intention of joining a congregation that goes habitless so to speak. Williamb 22:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Referencing

How and can I reference this page? I need to cite the page on nun's and any other wikipedia pages if this is possible.

Here are instructions for Citing_Wikipedia.

Canonical Reference

I changed the paragraph about submitting the consitutions to Rome for approval to reflect and site the current law, as laid out by JP2 in Pastor BonusDaveTroy 21:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Sisters' colleges

I wanted to add a link to the article about Assumption College for Sisters, which is the last "nun college" in the United States, but...I had no idea where to put it. Are there enough sisters' colleges left outside of the U.S. that we could make a list of some sort? It seems like it would be a good thing to include, but at the same time, just listing one is pretty pointless and doesn't show importance. Beginning 22:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC) Have added link--Simon Speed 19:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Controversy

As a Catholic and as a Religous I find the link to the so called "sisters" of Perpetual Indulgence offensive. Am I alone in thinking this? DaveTroy

I do too. Williamb 21:41, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

24hrs, link to S of Perp Indulgence is removed. It has nothing to do with the ariticle at hand. DaveTroy 14:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

What is the logic to the link of Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence? They have NOTHING to do with nuns or what they stand for? If anything, they are the opposite. The so called sisters do nothing but indulge themselves -- the opposite of what nuns do. Further, it is offensive to consider them in the same breath as the women religous. DaveTroy

• Besides they are not in the least bit cloistered, nor do they take a vow of chastity. Williamb 17:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Link restored:- I have restored the link to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. It has been there in the past and has been removed because the organisation is disliked by the religious right and its members do not conform to a church definition of "nun". However, the SPI do consider themselves nuns, wear habits and engage in charity work. They actively promote a moral position (a liberal one) both in words and by example. Denying mention of this small, but colourful order (which recieves a lot of press coverage) is censorship. Articles are required to have a neutral point of view where alternative viewpoints are reflected but not promoted (and that is supposed to go for the right as much as the left). I have also put in a link to the Magdalene Laundries reflecting serious controversy which ought to be reported elsewhere in the article.--Simon Speed 19:18, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I would argue for a twofold 'test': do they consider themselves to be nuns? Are they seen as nuns by society and/or relevant experts? I think the answer to the first 'test' is a clear yes and the second one a clear no. Any suggestions or comments?

GuyIncognito 12:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Would you have both criteria needed to be met for a group to be nuns, or just one of the two? And why? Who exactly are the relevant experts and where have they ruled the SPI non-nuns? --Simon Speed 18:02, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Here, Guy, you see the problem. Simon wants this stuff here and will hear no arguments to the contrary.

Is there a way to propose part of an article for deletion, the way you can propose the whole thing? Goldfritha 18:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The 'test' I developed was just something that I came up with. I see the first part as necessary so that we limit our investigation to those that actually claim to be nuns. The second part I see as necessary because it seems sensible to require something more than 'self-identification' in order to label someone as being something (in relation to a profession or 'calling'). I thought to myself why some people are identified as physicians, why some are called police officers and why some are called school teachers and I came to the conclusion that an individual must do more than merely identify themselves as being one, but that society, either through a broad social consensus or some instrument of government, 'ratifies' that identity in some way. I cannot offer any study that shows that society, or, say, religious scholars, don't identify the "Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence" as being nuns. But I would argue that the onus is upon the claimant to prove that such groups do identify the "SPI" as nuns.

I don't see why this is such an issue, but I am not in a position to judge the motives of others. The title 'nun' has, to my knowledge, only been applied to religious groups up to this point. The SPI may adhere to a particular philosophy and engage in some commendable works, but as far as I am aware they themselves don't claim to be 'religious' in any sense. I can see that if this dispute continues that some serious research into sociology and religion may be required as well as a formal dispute resolution of some kind. I don't think that it is important enough an issue to go to that kind of trouble.

GuyIncognito 07:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

See also (More SPI Controversy)

This page is about nuns. The See also links should be only those that would illuminate the topic of the page. Goldfritha 00:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Very well I shall have to put together something longer that will illuminate the topic. The SPI are a small order of nuns, but they cast a completely new light on what nuns can be and what spirituality can be. There is a separate article on the SPI, but they need to be referred to in any discussion of modern nuns. I thought a simple link would be enough - evidently not. I am quite happy to have different sides of the controversy around this order aired but not to have it suppressed. --Simon Speed 01:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you expect a longer section to be treated with any more indulgence than the link? Goldfritha 03:18, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

First of all thankyou for replying, I just wish you would address some of my arguments. Could we at least agree to cut and paste this section to Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence Controversy where it will make more sense?

I do not expect or ask for indulgence from anyone. (Don't indulgences have a rather bad reputation?) I do expect that my editing and points of view are respected. I expect that other editors will ensure balance by insisting that alternative points of view are represented (but not think that a consevative Catholic view can justify itself as anywhere near an overwhelming orthodoxy) and that controversial views are not simply censored away. You state that the SPI page is simply irrelevant: it is hardly a motoring or maths page is it?

For any confused reader, we are discussing the deletion of the link to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence on the nun page.--Simon Speed 21:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Inserting unrelated material -- about non-nuns, no less -- into an article deserves no respect. Goldfritha 00:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The status of the SPI as nuns has been discussed on the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence page argued for by me here already. Once again you have not challenged the arguments, but simply asserted that the SPI are "non-nuns". I'm sure that according to the rules of the catholic church this is true, but the same goes for Buddhists and every other religion and philosophy that lie outside its walls. You believe they are non-nuns, they believe they are nuns and so do many others. Even if you are right, do you seriously believe they are "unrelated". It seems that you need this fiction of "irrelevant" or "unrelated" to justify censorship (removing rather than putting the opposing view).--Simon Speed 00:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Of course Buddhist nuns are nuns. But calling yourself a nun does not make you one, dressing up does not making you one, and doing charity work does not make you one. Read the lede if you have any doubts. (Religious sisters, as this article explains, do the second two without being nuns.) Goldfritha 23:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

If you must edit war please don't claim to be removing vandalism. Material is not vandalism simply because you disagree with it. Please read the relevant Misplaced Pages articles before proceding further eg. Misplaced Pages:Vandalism.

"Of course Buddhist nuns are nuns" - really? There is no "of course" about it. By the rules of the Catholic Church they are no more nuns than I am. They belong to a group in which they claim to be nuns, are accepted as nuns and fulfil the role of nuns. Neutral observers identify them as nuns because of these sociological facts, not because of any "of course".

You state that Religious sisters dress up and do charity work without being nuns, but this article covers lay sisters as wel as "nuns proper" as defined by the Catholic church. The distinction is explained in an earlier section: the sisters are not edited out. Perhaps you should add something to the SPI section suggest that they are in fact Religious sisters.

This article covers all those to whom the term "nun" applies. If you check the SPI website (follow the link from the Misplaced Pages page), you will see that they make no claim to dress as nuns but rather to be nuns. If you also read coverage in the Bay Area Reporter you will see that they are accepted in that role by a large cultural group of which they are members. --Simon Speed 01:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course the Buddhist nuns are nuns. Do you have any reference at all that Catholics do not consider them nuns?

That this group calls themselves nuns is not relevant. If they called themselves ducks, they would not be suitable for the Duck page. They are obviously not nuns by the lede on this article. Goldfritha 00:15, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Modern Catholicism has turned rather tolerant on the subject of other religions. It wasn't always so. The nasty attitudes go all the way back to Origen who held that other religions worshiped demons. Do a search on "burning times" to get a glimpse of some of the worst of it. Even now with regard to Anglicans (the Protestants closest to Catholicism) you can get quotes like "Episcopal ordination does not produce a valid priest" . (Not a good example but found quickly with one Google).

Argument from definition: the opening lines of the article define nun in such a way that the SIP should be excluded. The Catechism of the first lines has been recited, oh dear. My dictionary says that nuns are also pagan priestesses, who seem to missing here. We're dealing with social functions, which can and (as the SPI pages and Bay Area Reporter show) do develop with time.

And Ducks. Can the Pope ordain Ducks? Your argument relies on the impossibilty of anyone being a duck, so the person making the claim is silly and we're lead to feel that someone claiming to be a nun is silly. But if there were a group of people who actually managed to somehow take on the role of ducks, I do think they'd warrant a mention on the duck page, in fact rather a big one!--Simon Speed 01:57, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Random comments about "burning times" only reinforce the problem that you do not, in fact, have any ground to assert that Catholics do not -- and have not -- regarded Buddhist nuns as nuns. Goldfritha 18:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The comment about the burning times was far from random, it was intended rto lead you to a whole raft of well documented material that showed Catholic tradition conceding no validity to any non Judeo-Christian faith whatsoever. The followers of these faiths whatever their role within them were considered witches and as suitable victims for murder. The current Catholic church, though vastly more liberal, is quite clear that it alone can validly give the status of priest, nun, monk or saint (to the dead). The issue only really comes up with Anglicans (because of the historical links) but even there the line is clear . What the Catholic church says about protestants, goes (only much more so) for non-Christian religions.

Coming back to ducks. If you look at the duck page you'll see a picture of Daffy illustrating "Ducks and humor" (my quotes). There are no quotes around the word duck in spite of Daffy being a bizarre blend of duck and human. By comparison the SPI are the very paradigm of nunhood. --Simon Speed 21:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the current text and link to SPI makes it very clear what they are,a nd no association with Catholic nuns is likely to be accidentally assumed. (and incidentally, the church saved more accused witches than killed them -- it was the civillians who were the bloodiest) --Scix 02:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, yeah, but you need something more than "they won't be confused with Catholic nuns" (or Buddhist nuns for that matter) to be in the Nun article. If you put in a section about ducks, people would be unlike to confuse the ducks with nuns, but that's not a justification. Goldfritha 23:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, I have limited experience to Misplaced Pages but have served as the archivist for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc. in San Francisco and feel well qualified to speak to some of the issues brought up. I can be reached at pusspusspuss@yahoo.com for further questions as I doubt i will be continually checking up on discussion threads due to time constraints.

The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are indeed nuns and do take vows and serve their respective communities just as nuns have throughout history. Four of the main differences from traditional nuns are they 1. Have no formal religious sect they are tied to instead weaving together modern ritual and public service from a variety of traditions including pagan, wiccan, faerie and eastern spiritualities.

2. Are extremely independent and matriarchal rather than led by one man or one leader they are usually democratic and.or consensus-based.

3. Are sex-positive and sex-affirming rather than sex-shaming.

4. Are queer, gay and kink friendly and focussed.

They are well aware that other religious groups are ruffled or offended by thier presence but are probably just as offended by heterosexist and judeo-christian leanings which affect their lives as well.

No nuns -- not Catholic, not Orthodox, not Buddhist -- are nuns in order to "serve their respective communities," and many such nuns do not perform any such service.

And the offense is irrelevant. Just as if you claimed to be ducks, the problem would not be that you offend anyone by the claim, but that you are, in fact, not ducks. Goldfritha 22:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Stereotype of nuns

Somehow I have bouncing around my head a silly stereotype of nuns as holding rulers in their hands and rapping people's knuckles with them. Where'd that come from, and how did it come to be so widespread? 204.52.215.107 04:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It's the evil influence of the media and the even more eveil influence of observation of reality:-) --Simon Speed 02:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment

This is a controversy about whether a group of activists called the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence belongs on this page. 15:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• The lede from this article is clear enough: "In general, a nun is a female ascetic who chooses to voluntarily leave mainstream society and live her life in prayer and contemplation in a monastery or convent." They're not women, and they're not ascetics. Goldfritha 15:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Would those commenting please start by reading the debate that has already taken place on the talk page. It seems strange that the exclusion of the SPI is being justified on the basis of neutrality, as the bulk of the article currently reads like an exteact from a Catholic encyclopedia. --Simon Speed 01:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Comments

• Move to Joke religion. Self-labelling is not enough for inclusion unless may be if they were very notable for which I see little indication or evidence. Andries 16:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• The burden of evidence is always on those desiring inclusion. What independent sources that are reliable sources describe the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence as nuns? For the present, there are no such references either here or in the article on the SPI. Without such references, the relevant policy is this quote from WP:NPOV#Undue weight "If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Misplaced Pages, except perhaps in some ancilliary article. Misplaced Pages is not the place for original research." So the material should be removed from this article. For anything substantial to be here, the test is "it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts". GRBerry 18:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)