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Revision as of 00:43, 3 June 2018 editLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,295,546 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Julius and Ethel Rosenberg/Archive 2) (bot← Previous edit Revision as of 22:01, 6 June 2018 edit undoVfrickey (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users3,570 edits →NPOV regarding the Venona project conclusions regarding their guilt and overall tone of article.: Described how we addressed Notcharliechaplin's concerns, the very good reliability of the sources we cite on the Rosenbergs' guilt and the injustice of their trial, and reminded the other editor of WP:DUE and the need to identify a SIGNIFICANT minority view to place alongside parts of the article supporting the majority view of historians and legal scholars.Next edit →
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The article seems to state a "contentious" regarding the interpretation of the VENONA documents that I am not convinced exists. Yes, it may be true that a majority of historians feel the Venona project documents do in deed support the guilt of the Rosenberg's, the fact is that their has been some legitimate doubt raised about whether the documents have been properly translated or not by respectable sources. As such, I would rewrite the VENONA documents section to better reflect this. There is dispute by relevant individuals as to whether the VENONA documents are properly translated and as such, whether they do in deed support the long held belief that certain individuals, such as the Rosenberg's and Alger Hiss where indeed guilty of spying for the Soviets. Critics believe that while the documents do indeed show spying was going on, it's not clear that they real-life individuals accused of said spying are indeed the code-names mentioned in the document. The documents do not mention real names so it requires speculation to put the real names to the code-named people in the document. This article should reflect this reality. There is also the issue of whether the immorality of framing the Rosenberg's, even if they where guilty to some or all degree, makes their execution a grave injustice, as well as whether they was such they deserve the death penalty anyways. If any notable persons has argued their they believe the Rosenberg's role in the espionage did not constitute a death penalty level offense that that should be added to the article. --] (]) 22:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC) The article seems to state a "contentious" regarding the interpretation of the VENONA documents that I am not convinced exists. Yes, it may be true that a majority of historians feel the Venona project documents do in deed support the guilt of the Rosenberg's, the fact is that their has been some legitimate doubt raised about whether the documents have been properly translated or not by respectable sources. As such, I would rewrite the VENONA documents section to better reflect this. There is dispute by relevant individuals as to whether the VENONA documents are properly translated and as such, whether they do in deed support the long held belief that certain individuals, such as the Rosenberg's and Alger Hiss where indeed guilty of spying for the Soviets. Critics believe that while the documents do indeed show spying was going on, it's not clear that they real-life individuals accused of said spying are indeed the code-names mentioned in the document. The documents do not mention real names so it requires speculation to put the real names to the code-named people in the document. This article should reflect this reality. There is also the issue of whether the immorality of framing the Rosenberg's, even if they where guilty to some or all degree, makes their execution a grave injustice, as well as whether they was such they deserve the death penalty anyways. If any notable persons has argued their they believe the Rosenberg's role in the espionage did not constitute a death penalty level offense that that should be added to the article. --] (]) 22:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
: Misplaced Pages is based off of what the reliable sources say. In this particular article, what serious (as opposed to popular) historians have written on the subject. Who are the historians who agree with you and disagree with the ones currently used in the article? ] (]) 22:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC) : Misplaced Pages is based off of what the reliable sources say. In this particular article, what serious (as opposed to popular) historians have written on the subject. Who are the historians who agree with you and disagree with the ones currently used in the article? ] (]) 22:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
: @] The ] Soviet cable decrypts mentioning the Soviet agent named "Julius" were important, but also corroborated by the detective work of FBI special agent Robert Lamphere in tying ] to the agent "Julius" in the decrypts - which also mentioned the agent was married to a woman named "Ethel". That part of the decrypts was very explicit and not prone to mistranslation - it was very specific about agent "Julius" and his wife "Ethel" - if anyone burned the Rosenbergs, it was their Soviet case handler. With the VENONA cables, the testimony of Ethel Rosenberg's brother and her sister-in-law, and the Soviet courier ], there were no ambiguities regarding the Rosenbergs' guilt.
: We already cite reliable sources questioning the morality of executing the Rosenbergs, up to and including their sons, the Meeropol brothers. We cite reliable sources who agree that the Rosenbergs were guilty. We also cite one of the most eminent legal scholars and defense counsels in the United States, ] in the lede paragraph as saying the Rosenbergs were "guilty - and framed" of espionage. We also cite very reliable sources, the VENONA decrypts and the FBI investigators, as well as several historians who discussed the case together as supporting the guilty verdict in the Rosenbergs' case. You're welcome to present these other sources here and we'll examine them and form a consensus on whether to add what they have to say - but remember ] - these other sources would have to be a significant minority view - not a small minority, as Jimbo Wales says in the ] guideline. ] (]) 21:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

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Template:Vital article

Age at death / limitations of sidebar

The right-hand information block suggested that, having died the same day, they died at the same age in spite of having different birth years. Reviewing the code, it appears this was an auto-calculated field which does not allow the flexibility of reporting two death ages at a unique time for non-unique birthdates. To clarify for other readers, I changed the code from 

| date_of_death  = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (both)

to 

| date_of_death  = June 19, 1953(1953-06-19) (aged 35) (Julius), and aged 37 (Ethel)

which I believe removes the ambiguity. There is still some minor formatting inconsistency as the sidebar places the initial age in parenthesis, but this was the best I could do with the automated process. At least now they are not reported dead at the same age.

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"Julius and Ethel" (1983) is based on the Rosenberg case as seen through the Nobel prizewinner Bob Dylan's eyes" - WP:UNDUE?"

Under the heading Artistic representations, the sentence

"Julius and Ethel (1983) is based on the Rosenberg case as seen through the Nobel prizewinner Bob Dylan's eyes".

seems to place undue emphasis on Dylan's Nobel Prize for Literature, which nowhere cites the song "Julius and Ethel". The words "Nobel prizewinner" ought to be deleted from the sentence as WP:UNDUE.

In addition, the statement is unsourced, which makes it stand out from the rest of the section, in which sources are given for each preceding statement of fact. It might be better for the sentence to be deleted entirely until a reliable source can be found stating what is said. loupgarous (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. The whole line was poorly written. I've re-phrased it and added a citation. – Mformatt 20:31, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were Jewish United States citizens..." in lede paragraph is WP:UNDUE

The lede paragraph of his article was modified on 20:49, 28 May 2018 to say

"Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were Jewish United States citizens... ".

.

The religious background of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg (both were from Jewish families) is already dealt with in the section "Early lives and education". If there is a notable connection between the religious and cultural milieu and the acts for which this couple became notable, it's not documented by a reliable source. Likewise, if either Julius or Ethel Rosenberg were observant Jews, that is also not documented by a reliable source.

Neither of the two ways it's generally understood that the Rosenbergs could be called "Jewish" is relevant to the acts for which the Rosenbergs became notable. Stating the fact in the article's lede paragraph is WP:UNDUE. I reverted the change accordingly. loupgarous (talk) 02:41, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, Jewish can be an ethnic description. No, neither of them were religiously observant: they were Communists. I agree this doesn't need to be in the lede.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:40, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

NPOV regarding the Venona project conclusions regarding their guilt and overall tone of article.

The article seems to state a "contentious" regarding the interpretation of the VENONA documents that I am not convinced exists. Yes, it may be true that a majority of historians feel the Venona project documents do in deed support the guilt of the Rosenberg's, the fact is that their has been some legitimate doubt raised about whether the documents have been properly translated or not by respectable sources. As such, I would rewrite the VENONA documents section to better reflect this. There is dispute by relevant individuals as to whether the VENONA documents are properly translated and as such, whether they do in deed support the long held belief that certain individuals, such as the Rosenberg's and Alger Hiss where indeed guilty of spying for the Soviets. Critics believe that while the documents do indeed show spying was going on, it's not clear that they real-life individuals accused of said spying are indeed the code-names mentioned in the document. The documents do not mention real names so it requires speculation to put the real names to the code-named people in the document. This article should reflect this reality. There is also the issue of whether the immorality of framing the Rosenberg's, even if they where guilty to some or all degree, makes their execution a grave injustice, as well as whether they was such they deserve the death penalty anyways. If any notable persons has argued their they believe the Rosenberg's role in the espionage did not constitute a death penalty level offense that that should be added to the article. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 22:03, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is based off of what the reliable sources say. In this particular article, what serious (as opposed to popular) historians have written on the subject. Who are the historians who agree with you and disagree with the ones currently used in the article? NPalgan2 (talk) 22:36, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
@Notcharliechaplin The VENONA Soviet cable decrypts mentioning the Soviet agent named "Julius" were important, but also corroborated by the detective work of FBI special agent Robert Lamphere in tying Julius Rosenberg to the agent "Julius" in the decrypts - which also mentioned the agent was married to a woman named "Ethel". That part of the decrypts was very explicit and not prone to mistranslation - it was very specific about agent "Julius" and his wife "Ethel" - if anyone burned the Rosenbergs, it was their Soviet case handler. With the VENONA cables, the testimony of Ethel Rosenberg's brother and her sister-in-law, and the Soviet courier Harry Gold, there were no ambiguities regarding the Rosenbergs' guilt.
We already cite reliable sources questioning the morality of executing the Rosenbergs, up to and including their sons, the Meeropol brothers. We cite reliable sources who agree that the Rosenbergs were guilty. We also cite one of the most eminent legal scholars and defense counsels in the United States, Alan Dershowitz in the lede paragraph as saying the Rosenbergs were "guilty - and framed" of espionage. We also cite very reliable sources, the VENONA decrypts and the FBI investigators, as well as several historians who discussed the case together as supporting the guilty verdict in the Rosenbergs' case. You're welcome to present these other sources here and we'll examine them and form a consensus on whether to add what they have to say - but remember WP:DUE - these other sources would have to be a significant minority view - not a small minority, as Jimbo Wales says in the WP:DUE guideline. loupgarous (talk) 21:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
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