Misplaced Pages

Talk:Capitoline Wolf: Difference between revisions

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
Browse history interactively← Previous editNext edit →Content deleted Content addedVisualWikitext
Revision as of 10:28, 23 October 2018 editDimadick (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers803,043 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit Revision as of 10:28, 23 October 2018 edit undoDimadick (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers803,043 editsNo edit summaryNext edit →
Line 9: Line 9:
{{WikiProject Women's history|class=|importance=}} {{WikiProject Women's history|class=|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Women|class=|importance=}} {{WikiProject Women|class=|importance=}}
{{WikiProject Rome|class=A|importance=top}} {{WikiProject Rome|class=|importance=}}
}} }}
{{dyktalk|30 April|2006|entry=....that the ''']''', the ] of the ], is actually an ] bronze ] depicting a she-wolf suckling the infant twins ]?}} {{dyktalk|30 April|2006|entry=....that the ''']''', the ] of the ], is actually an ] bronze ] depicting a she-wolf suckling the infant twins ]?}}

Revision as of 10:28, 23 October 2018

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconDogs Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Dogs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Canidae and commonly referred to as "dogs" and of which the domestic dog is but one of its many members, on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DogsWikipedia:WikiProject DogsTemplate:WikiProject DogsDogs
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Note icon
A fact from this article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know? column.
WikiProject Dogs To-do:

Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Dogs:

WikiProject iconVisual arts
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Visual arts, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of visual arts on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Visual artsWikipedia:WikiProject Visual artsTemplate:WikiProject Visual artsvisual arts
WikiProject iconVisual arts: Public art
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Visual arts, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of visual arts on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Visual artsWikipedia:WikiProject Visual artsTemplate:WikiProject Visual artsvisual arts
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the public art task force.
WikiProject iconSculpture
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Sculpture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sculpture on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SculptureWikipedia:WikiProject SculptureTemplate:WikiProject Sculpturesculpture
WikiProject iconAnimals in media (inactive)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Animals in media, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.Animals in mediaWikipedia:WikiProject Animals in mediaTemplate:WikiProject Animals in mediaAnimals in media
WikiProject iconClassical Greece and Rome
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Misplaced Pages's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconMythology
WikiProject iconThis article is supported by WikiProject Mythology. This project provides a central approach to Mythology-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the WikiProject page for more details.MythologyWikipedia:WikiProject MythologyTemplate:WikiProject MythologyMythology
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconWomen's History
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconWomen
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Women, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of women on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.WomenWikipedia:WikiProject WomenTemplate:WikiProject WomenWikiProject Women
WikiProject iconRome
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Rome, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the city of Rome and ancient Roman history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RomeWikipedia:WikiProject RomeTemplate:WikiProject RomeRome
???This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
A fact from Capitoline Wolf appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 30 April 2006. The text of the entry was as follows: A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2006/April.
Misplaced Pages

Dimensions?

Online documentation for this statuary is sorely lacking. I tried for two hours to find the dimensions of it, and could not. I know the one in Georgia is supposedly an full-size replica, and according to it, it weighs 1500 lbs. Looking at it in context in front of the City Hall steps, it appears to measure about 2 ft x 3 ft. Any help? Iamvered 03:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Googling "Lupa Capitolina cm" found the measurement in centimeters, now added to the article. --Wetman 12:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ambiguity

"When the twins' grandfather Numitor was overthrown by his brother Amulius, he ordered them to be cast into the River Tiber." Who did - Numitor or Amulius? PiCo

I've re-edited, so that no one could be confused.--Wetman 19:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The added twins

That the twins were added in the Renaissance is a commonplace of popular travel guides, which, with ninety seconds' worth of googling, might have been confirmed for even the least informed. I have added the NY Times travel guide to the articles "references" (!) but the online Frommer Guide has this: "...you'll find Lupa Capitolina (Capitoline Wolf), a rare Etruscan bronze that could date from the 5th century B.C. (Romulus and Remus, the legendary twins who were suckled by the wolf, were added at a later date.)" The attribution to Pollaiuolo (noted as "possible") in my edit, is also a commonplace, though not quite so universal: "The figures of the twins, Romulus and Remus, being suckled by the Wolf (lupus), were added by Antonio Pollaiuolo in the 15th Century." Now that it's been pointed out, I'm sure that a cursory inspection of the wolf and the twins will bear out their separate origins, even from a photograph. --Wetman 19:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

"Expand"

In which direction is expansion being requested? I have removed the tag from the head of the article itself, as unnecessarily disfiguring. Any concrete requests for expansion? --Wetman 12:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The history in this article seems contradictory

On the one hand, the article states, "after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire the Capitoline Wolf was housed until 1471 in San Teodoro..."

On the other hand, the article also states, "The bronze wolf was said to have been unearthed under the northwest spur of Palatine Hill, and was noted at the Lateran Palace from the beginning of the 9th century."

There are two parallel histories presented here. In the first, it seems the wolf was never lost in late antiquity, and remained in the Church of St. Theodore until it was moved to the Capitoline museum in 1471.

In the second, the wolf WAS lost, and only unearthed on the Palatine in the ninth century, after which it was on display at the Lateran palace law court.

Any way to explain the contradiction, or to smooth it out?

Simonesj 11:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

R. Lanciani, from the ext. links: "As regards the She-Wolf, the positive evidence of its being kept at the Lateran dates from the beginning of the ninth century. Benedict, a monk from Mount Soracte, who wrote a Chronicon in the tenth century, speaks of the institution of a supreme court of justice "in the Lateran p286palace, in the place called graffiti, viz., the mother of the Romans." Trials and executions "at the Wolf" are recorded from time to time until 1450. Paolo di Liello speaks of two highwaymen, whose hands, cut by the executioner, were hung at the Wolf. It was removed to the Conservatori palace on the Capitol in 1473, together with the colossal Head and the Camillus." I note the telltale formula "was said to have been... and I try to think what a ninth-century archaeological report would look like... --Wetman 17:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Text about San Teodoro was added by User:Neddyseagoon, 11 January 2007; text about "unearthed on the Palatine Hill" by User:Iamvered, 29 April 2006. Check with them: I've spent enough time on this. --Wetman 17:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC) .

Fair use rationale for Image:1960.jpg

Image:1960.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Misplaced Pages article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 04:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:1960.jpg

Image:1960.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Misplaced Pages article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Misplaced Pages:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Misplaced Pages policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 18:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

A reference

Italian wikipedia gives the reference Ranuccio Bianchi Bandinelli and Mario Torelli, L'arte dell'antichità classica, Etruria-Roma, Utet, Torino 1976. Can anyone find what is said here of the Lupa Capitolina? --Wetman (talk) 04:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

This entire article is no longer valid

This article has been made obsolete. The University of Salerno has recently concluded, after a battery of tests, that the wolf was cast in the 13th century. The additions of Romulus and Remus were cast in the 15 century --Jeremiahta (talk) 14:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

This is interesting -- the article maybe should include some of this. It's been kept a secret for over 10 years!.--Doug Weller (talk) 16:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten the article to bring it up to date. One of the peculiarities of the current situation is that 200 years' of scholarship is now going to have to be thrown out - all those learned books and articles telling us about how the wolf is a prime example of Etruscan art... -- ChrisO (talk) 18:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Well done ChrisO. You're right, lots of work there. Doug Weller (talk) 18:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Linking the Times article. --Ghirla 10:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Confusing...

So if the wolf is a 13th century AD piece, then what about the references by Cicero etc.? They must have been looking at something - would the current wolf be a copy or reimagining of a now-lost original? Vultur (talk) 03:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Probably, but nobody really knows. Almost everyone had assumed that the current statue was the same one seen by Cicero etc. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, as stated in the article, the 13th century datation is far from sure. I would wait the conclusion of the story... Alex2006 (talk) 07:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems that the Museo Nuovo are not planning to release the C-14 dating results to the public. I've corresponded with Carruba, who claims that the casting core samples, tested at several different C-14 labs, all correspond to the medieval period, with the most likely date being the 13th century. I'm adding a note to the article that notes that the museum has not released the data as promised.
OK, good! To me looks like a lot of people just don't want to give up the etruscan datation for reasons which are far from scientific. Alex2006 (talk) 14:30, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Haven't a clue about the date, but there seem to be a fair few inconsistanties in the scientific dating results. Perhaps more details about what PART of the sculpture they are from are would really help understand the significance of them. Fair bit of the following is OR but...
Thermoluminescence done on pottery not bronze, so that result would have to be for the base? If the piece was reworked, then any pattina that formed on the surface of an older casting might have been removed. Quite possibly by the application of vinegar (a source of 15thC carbon, that would penetrate the surface). Additionally the surface could have had it's colour/texture manipulated by reheating at lowish heat in charcoal dust, any of these could raise a date towards 15th C. Not at all sure where ANY carbon would have come from in the casting cores. I've done metal casting and you don't NEED to add any carbon to a fully enclosed core made of baked sand+clay. (carbon's purpose is to provide pourosity, but if the gases can't escape anyway, it's detrimental to generate more Co2 as any carbon burns off)
Additional I find that the base is older than the twins quite difficult to understand. Surely their mountings would need forming in the base before it was fired, placing the date of the addition of the twins at about the same time. Also why keep a pottery base, when it was easy enough to make a new one?
steve10345 (talk) 22:47, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
The core and cloak, on which the original wax statue would have been formed in the first instance and covered by in the second, was not made the exact same way modern casting cores and cloaks are made of - animal manure (horse manure is one of the better european alternatives) was a major component of ancient, medieval and early modern casting tecniques, mixed with the other materials (we have a number of written descriptions of this, from all over the world). This manure included a lot of plant material that is the source of the carbon, and is mentioned in the Lombardi article and Carruba's unpublished notes to the final dating.
The thermoluminescence dating references by Lombardi were also conducted on the core, not the surface. As Lombardi describes, the refiring c.1500 affected the dating (one of the many reasons tl is not a popular dating method anymore). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.232.22.160 (talk) 12:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Capitoline Wolf. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—Talk to my owner:Online 16:32, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Capitoline Wolf. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Capitoline Wolf. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:41, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Misstatement

Re: the opening paragraph. According to Plutarch, Amulius ordered their death, but there is no legend that the twins were actually cast into the river and "saved" by the wolf. Rather, they were placed in a feeding trough by a servant and left under a tree near the river. There they were suckled by a she-wolf for a short time before being discovered. (Later the feeding trough became an important relic.)
Dmforcier (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Plutarch is a late source, and not even a Roman. There are of course many variant accounts, covered in a bit more detail in the article actually on the twins. Johnbod (talk) 08:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
Categories: