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*'''No''' In a case like this, "extremist" is a value judgement, not enclyclopedic information. Also wp:BLP sets a high bar for such things, and this nowhere near meets it. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 12:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''No''' In a case like this, "extremist" is a value judgement, not enclyclopedic information. Also wp:BLP sets a high bar for such things, and this nowhere near meets it. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 12:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''No''' - Summoned by bot. Violates ] and is far from neutral. ]<sup>(])</sup> 02:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''No''' - Summoned by bot. Violates ] and is far from neutral. ]<sup>(])</sup> 02:09, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''No'''. Not easy enough from these sources to slap this particular label on a living person. Plus, one wonders if labels really do justice to this lady's particular particularities. ] (]) 02:19, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
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A fact from Pamela Geller appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 31 August 2010 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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Islamophobia
Are there any reliable sources that actually deny that many of Pamella Geller's statements are Islamophobic? If not, we don't need to qualify that and can state it as fact. Because there is certainly a long list of sources that agree that many of her statements are Islamophobic.VRtalk14:27, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
You can't have it stated as a fact as there's no such thing as islamophobia. She's not phobic of them, she opposes their actions.213.205.241.129 (talk) 04:32, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
That statement makes no sense and is based on strawman logic. Unless a reliable source denies that her statements are Islamophobic, then they can be stated as fact. Shabeki (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Bizarre lede sentence
This sentence is bizarre:
Multiple media outlets have called her "far right", while others, such as the BBC, contrast her right-wing support for small government with her culturally liberal positions on abortion and same sex marriage.
One, there is nothing notable about her views on small government, abortion and same-sex marriage. Two, the text seems intended to dispute the widely used term "far-right" for her. Third, there's no need to attribute "far-right" to "media outlets". There's also no need to put far-right in quotes.
The BBC sources cited doesn't say far-right. It does say - In favour of abortion and same-sex marriages on the one hand, she is an enthusiastic supporter of right-wing small government - including cutting taxes and reducing budgets - on the other.. Would would be a mixture of right-wing and left-wing politics in the US (on marriage & reproduction vs. the rest). You can not place "far right" unqualified in the lead here - all you have is some polemic sources uses this label - and other more mainstream sources refraining from it.Icewhiz (talk) 12:18, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
It's bizarre because the bit in the middle about the SPLC keeps getting removed by people who don't like that the SPLC rightly called her a right wing extremist. It's reliably sourced and due though so it boils down to WP:IDONTLIKEITSimonm223 (talk) 14:45, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
We already have a sentence calling her "far right." There is little added by calling her "right-wing extremist" as there would by calling her alt-right, Neo-right, or Trumpeter-Right. "Far" and "extreme" are essentially the same thing. The paragraph says "right" three times when two would do. There's no consensus for a triplicate reiteration. No one is objecting to using the SPLC as it occurs several times in the lead. That's a red-herring claim. Jason from nyc (talk)
The SPLC position on her is definitely due in the lede. There's no clear consensus to keep it out, it's reliably sourced and your removal is plain and simple WP:IDONTLIKEIT so I suggest you self-revert and put it back. Simonm223 (talk) 17:01, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
First of all you are dismissing my points as subjective ("I don't like it") without considering them. This is not conducive to a discussion seeking consensus. Try again. Jason from nyc (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
The SPLC quote is not duplicated in the lede. Your point is without merit and your conduct borders on WP:TEND. There's no demonstration of consensus; it's you who keeps reverting this statement out, to the detriment of the flow of the lede. Simonm223 (talk) 17:08, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
We already have the SPLC calling her Islamophobic on the first paragraph in the lede - we don't need to reiterate the SPLC's position again. Icewhiz (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
"right-wing extremist"
We usually attribute the SPLC. Furthermore, it would seem that most secondary sources covering Geller do not use this particular label (while they do use several other labels) - e.g. this BBC profile does not use this language). When attaching contentious labels to BLPs we generally follow labelling used in a wide spectrum of sources. There are several secondary RSes covering Geller over the years - which other sources have used this label? Icewhiz (talk) 04:53, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
I will further note that my reading of the cited SPLC source does not support "right-wing extremist" - I do not see that language there. The SPLC does use the extremist label as well as anti-Muslim - but not right-wing - please provide a quote supporting this.Icewhiz (talk) 04:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Youll note that? But you didnt note that it says Through her website, Geller has promulgated some of the most bizarre conspiracy theories found on the extreme right, including claims that President Obama is the love child of Malcolm X; that Obama was once involved with a "crack whore"; that his birth certificate is a forgery; that his late mother posed nude for pornographic photos; and that he was a Muslim in his youth who never renounced Islam. But sure, one of the more controversial ascending stars of the American extreme right. nableezy - 06:25, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Right now, you have an epithet at the beginning of the 1st para., supported by an SPLC cit., and then at the end you have another, different epithet, supported by the same SPLC cit. It's as if Misplaced Pages has decided the ultimate arbiter of human thought is the SPLC. Sad. Anyway, the SPLC clearly says Geller is Islamophobic, but nowhere does it say she's a "right-wing extremist." XavierItzm (talk) 07:33, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, SPLC doesnt support it, despite this already being quoted on this page
Through her website, Geller has promulgated some of the most bizarre conspiracy theories found on the extreme right, including claims that President Obama is the love child of Malcolm X; that Obama was once involved with a "crack whore"; that his birth certificate is a forgery; that his late mother posed nude for pornographic photos; and that he was a Muslim in his youth who never renounced Islam.
And also on this page there being another source that explicitly supports what you removed. I dont believe we put in quotes "right-wing extremist", making the argument that the SPLC does not say "right-wing extremist" a straw man. SPLC very clearly supports that, but regardless, when protection is lifted, Ill add the Independent source. nableezy - 16:45, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
The page is in a category called extremist files it has the word extremist on the left margin. The text of the article uses the word extremist an additional 12 times. The source quite clearly supports the statement and the argument against looks a lot like a POV motivatged WP:TEND. Simonm223 (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
It just doesn't support "right wing extremist". It supports extremist. It supports anti-Muslim. It support spreading conspiracy theories. Nowhere does the SPLC say Geller herself is right-wing - and they probably are careful since she actually isn't that easy to pigeonhole on the US spectrum (e.g. given her abortion stance).Icewhiz (talk) 16:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
At the end of the first paragraph we have " The Southern Poverty Law Center has described Geller as "Islamophobic". - which we could modify to "anti-Muslim extremist". Icewhiz (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
is also a contributor to the far-right Breitbart News. Right there in the source. Which calls her an extremist over and over again. As I said, your argument against the characterization of the source is the definition of WP:TEND. Simonm223 (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm not really seeing justification for adding such a strong value judgement into the first sentence of the article, in WP's voice, in a BLP. I think we'd be better off getting SPLC back into the last paragraph by improving the wording of the content that was edit-warred out here. VQuakr (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
I think what is important is explaining what she is known for, which is her views on Islam. She may be a right wing extremist and it may be possible to source that, but it does not really help readers. Her perceived extremism mostly relates to her views on Islam. So anti-Islamist or similar wording is more descriptive. TFD (talk) 17:21, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
Except in that it demonstrates and example of how extreme right groups have used islamophobia as cover for normalizing their views. Geller is complicit in that process, and by refusing to characterize her as a right-wing extremist Misplaced Pages would be too. Simonm223 (talk) 13:28, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
Should the descriptor "right-wing extremist" be added to the first sentence of the article as proposed here and discussed in the talk page section above?
Previous RfCs relevant to the descriptor of "right wing" and/or the wording of the first sentences of the article include:
No. As a source for "right-wing extremist" has not been presented (we do have the SPLC calling her an anti-Muslim extremist, and some sources calling her right-wing, while others such as the BBC note she's been denounced as bigoted, but frame her political stance as - "In favour of abortion and same-sex marriages on the one hand, she is an enthusiastic supporter of right-wing small government - including cutting taxes and reducing budgets - on the other." - mixed). Geller is mainly known for her anti-Muslim advocacy (and not for her general political opinions) - and that's what we should be stressing. We do already quote the SPLC at the end of the first paragraph - it may be possible to tweak language there somewhat, or include a bit more of what the SPLC says. Icewhiz (talk) 10:22, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
WP:NPA please. The Independent supports extreme right - not extremist. As for right/left - other sources disagree (or paint a more complex picture) - e.g. the BBC. What all sources agree on (and what this subject is notable for) - is anti-Muslim. Icewhiz (talk) 11:52, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Lol, sure, theres a personal attack in quoting you. Do you know what the word "extremist" means? It means somebody on the extreme. This pedantry has reached new levels. nableezy - 22:13, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Holding extreme positions and being an extremist are not the same. The former is required for the latter, however the latter implies active advocacy and promotion of the former often via resorting to extreme actions as well. You did more than merely quote me - you alleged dishonesty, which you should strike. I will note that in English the connotation of nouns, verbs, and adjectives often varies - as an example if a RS says "X terrorized her co-workers, instilling an atmosphere of terror in the office" it would not be sufficient sourcing for us to say that "X is a terrorist".Icewhiz (talk) 04:54, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
The Independent does not say she holds extreme positions. It says member of the extreme right. Note whatever you wish, but Ill note your argument is both pedantic and in direct conflict to arguments you make regarding people whose politics you are less aligned with. nableezy - 01:15, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
People living in glasss houses shouldn't throw stones... Please do not imply I am aligned with Geller in any way. Regardless, the Independent (which is but one source) does not use "extremist".Icewhiz (talk) 04:44, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
There is a level of basic competence required here. A member of the extreme is definitionally an extremist. Again, pedantry, pedantry not in use when the subject is somebody whose politics you are opposed to. nableezy - 18:10, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the SPLC supports it, but even if one were to make the pedantic argument that it does not say both "extreme" and "right wing" in the same sentence, the Independent very clearly explicitly supports right wing extremist. nableezy - 11:41, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
No it does not. You are drawing your own conclusions. The SPLC does not say anywhere (that has been presented here) that Geller is «right-wing extremist». Not to mention Misplaced Pages is exposed to liability by defaming people based on one particular, highly biased entity's assessment. Bring a prevalence of WP:RS, and we'll be OK. XavierItzm (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
No, We already have a sentence calling her "far right." There is little added by calling her "right-wing extremist" as there would by calling her alt-right, Neo-right, or Trumpeter-Right. "Far" and "extreme" are essentially the same thing. The lead would say "right" three times when two would do. There's no need for a triplicate reiteration. No one is objecting to using the SPLC as it occurs several times in the lead. I agree with the consensus that describing her as anti-Islamic (or equivalent) is more specific, exacting, and sums up the criticism in the article. Jason from nyc (talk) 12:02, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes Multiple reliable sources exist for Geller's right-wing extremism. No compelling reason has been presented to whitewash this person's political stance. Let's call this thing that quacks a duck and call it a day, shall we? Simonm223 (talk) 13:21, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
We have an essay about the quack test that explicitly reminds us that we don't use it on article content. Especially BLPs. Regardless of whether the label is verifiable without invoking waterfoul, this is a discussion about whether the label is appropriate in the first sentence of the article. VQuakr (talk) 16:44, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
No I think the earlier RFCs got it right: we shouldn't be making contentious characterizations of a living person in Misplaced Pages's voice, and the proposed characterization is overkill for the first sentence. Proposed syntheses that use similar but imprecise paraphrases from what is stated in RS's are also non-starters. VQuakr (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
No At best the Independent comes close, but doesn't even label or support "right-wing extremist" as proposed. For a label as inflammatory and POV as this, should have several RSs to support it. But hey, if this flies, then I guess so will "Palestinian extremists". The Kingfisher (talk) 17:32, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
No - against BLP and LABEL, seems not dominant position nor self-proclaimed, and not enough in article to merit LEAD position. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:47, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
No (summoned by bot) - The WP:RS doesn't support this label even the SPLC doesn't support it(and we used it attributed anyhow).Moreover we should be really careful in WP:BLP and say exactly what source saying --Shrike (talk) 06:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
No In a case like this, "extremist" is a value judgement, not enclyclopedic information. Also wp:BLP sets a high bar for such things, and this nowhere near meets it. North8000 (talk) 12:53, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
No. Not easy enough from these sources to slap this particular label on a living person. Plus, one wonders if labels really do justice to this lady's particular particularities. Drmies (talk) 02:19, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
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