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{{ip|146.115.72.47}} Could you please explain your recent changes? You haven't provided references to support them. --] (]) 14:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
{{ping|146.115.72.47}} Could you please explain your recent changes? You haven't provided references to support them. --] (]) 14:00, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
Revision as of 14:01, 7 March 2019
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Hugo Chávez article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
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Add more real data on the Economy section. Chavez's impact on Inflation, and Per Capita Income.
Add data on the January 2010 Bolivar devaluation against the USD.
Add information on the divisive effect of Chavez's regime, with polarised pro and anti camps.
Updated list for 2014:
Add information about his alleged funding of FARC.
Add information about his alleged funding or the Krichners in Argentina's political campaigns.
Add information about the alleged use of public funds without consent of the Venezuelan people.
Add information about murder rate while in presidency.
Add information about inflation and shortages during presidency.
Change in poverty rates compared to other Latin American counties (i.e., Peru, Columbia).
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Extremely biased excerpt
In the "Economic and social policy" section:
"Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions, aimed at providing public services to improve economic, cultural, and social conditions so he could maintain political power. According to Corrales and Penfold, 'aid was disbursed to some of the poor, and more gravely, in a way that ended up helping the president and his allies and cronies more than anyone else'."
This excerpt sounds extremely anti-government biased and, in my humble view, violates Misplaced Pages's laws on neutrality. There is no decisive source stating that Chávez created the Bolivarian Missions to "maintain political power". I humbly propose that we remove both the aforementioned piece of text and the Corrales and Penfold quote entirely to avoid breaking neutrality and tell the facts from a neutral point of view. HandIsNotNookls (talk) 04:45, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
One of the sources in the first sentence is "Stratfor", referred to as "The Shadow CIA" and favorable to American geopolitical views. Hardly a reputable source. HandIsNotNookls (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
Note that it's also not appropriate to include this quote in the references section appended to a ref tag for more bromine statements. Simonm223 (talk) 18:46, 14 August 2018 (UTC)
@ZiaLater: I am very pointedly challenging the reliability of Maria C Werlau as a source on Venezuela. She's literally on the board of directors of an anti-socialist propaganda organization, she is a former bank VP. She is not an academic; her highest credential is a Masters' Degree from what I can find. In short, even if the journal itself can be a reliable source, in this context, from this author it is not reliable except as an opinion paper by a non-expert banker. Simonm223 (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
@Flickotown: Per your edit wars here and here please explain your reasoning. How can this be "undue and not in keeping with the tone and point of the paragraph"? You are obviously wikihounding by reverting my edits across several Misplaced Pages articles. -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
The material you included is clearly undue and therefore violates Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view but your ignorance makes sense given your edit-warring on this article and history of consistently including similarly one-sided, point-of-view-material on other articles. You will note that the paragraph consists wholly in outlining his ideological orientation and policy directions - this makes sense because it is just giving a general description of foreign policy positions. Not his opinion on some specific event that you discovered overnight and then arbitrarily decided was important because you have a political agenda to cram and/or because you have a desperate urgency to claw out some kind of false balance in the paragraph. I will remind you that the current foreign policy paragraph stood for years before you came along and injected your WP:BATTLEGROUND pov-material so the obligation really is on you and anybody else to justify why it belongs. I will also remind you that you have an established track record of edit warring with other users on a whole host of other articles for the same reason that you are edit-warring on this article (injecting highly non-neutral material), but for the sake of assuming good faith I will urge that you do not restore this undue material. There are other places where that kind of stuff can go (like a personal blog) but on here? No that just isn't going to fly. Flickotown (talk) 02:35, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
@Flickotown:, Chávez has been known for his anti-American rhetoric and the anti-Americanism had a prominent place in his foreign policy. The invasion of Iraq was the most controversial U.S. foreign policy decision in recent history. The intervention in Libya was also controversial. I see no reasonable argument here to remove these informative additions. I just don't like it doesn't count. I agree with RichardWeiss. My additions are sourced, relevant and the consensus is against you. Please read WP:No personal attacks and WP:Civility. Also read WP:BATTLEGROUND, I see you are wikihounding by reverting some of my edits on multiple pages. -- Tobby72 (talk) 08:42, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Chávez has been known for his anti-American rhetoric and the anti-Americanism had a prominent place in his foreign policy. That is already reflected in the paragraph. It is your right to expand on that part of the section (as I would expect given your WP:BATTLEGROUND history) but bear in mind that the section as a whole is meant to provide just a synopsis of Chavez's foreign policy not some paranoid focus on America (or any other country). So it would be best to do general descriptions and not this coatracky material of yours.
The invasion of Iraq was the most controversial U.S. foreign policy decision in recent history. The intervention in Libya was also controversial. That is irrelevant to the discussion and yet another example of your WP:POVPUSH. This article (let alone the paragraph) is dealing with Chavez not American foreign policy, let alone your interpretation of what foreign policy event is or isn't controversial.
I see no reasonable argument here to remove these informative additions. I just don't like it doesn't count. There is. You have already been told what they are. You just don't like it because you have an agenda to push (as your edit-warring on this article and history of consistently including similarly one-sided, point-of-view-material on other articles indicate).
I agree with RichardWeiss. My additions are sourced, relevant and the consensus is against you. No no there is no "consensus." Numbers-wise it is a deadlock as another editor has reverted you (User:Jamez42). Everything still stands: the current foreign policy paragraph stood for years before you came along and injected your WP:BATTLEGROUND pov-material so the obligation really is on you and anybody else to justify why it belongs. You do not get to overturn years of consensus on the paragraph just because you want to Flickotown (talk) 10:25, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Paranoid focus on America as you put it @Flickotown: sounds very like Chávez' opinion on the US. This paragraph is well-sourced, relevant, not undue sand should remain. Seems several editors disagree with you so please desist from reverting, while continuing to seek a consensus here. ♫ RichardWeisstalkcontribs19:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
Treating opinions as fact
How is an opinion expressed by a South Korean newspaper due inclusion in the lede in Misplaced Pages's voice? Especially for the WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim that a robust public sector caused the economic crisis as opposed to over a decade of economic warfare from the US in the form of trade sanctions, manipulative alliances and sponsoring massive smuggling over the Colombian border? Simonm223 (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
While BTI may have more due relevancy than the original source, it still cannot be communicated using Misplaced Pages's voice. They're clearly a strongly POV source; they are explicitly anti-socialist so their views need to be contextualized. Simonm223 (talk) 13:48, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
@Simonm223: Wow. Can you provide sources about how there has been "decade of economic warfare from the US in the form of trade sanctions, manipulative alliances and sponsoring massive smuggling over the Colombian border"? References on other claims have been included before and those are bold statements. Can you quote how the BTI is "explicitly anti-socialist"? Truth be told, is WP:DUE the problem, the sources used or just the content added? --Jamez42 (talk) 13:54, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
As I'm not putting that statement in article space I am not required to. We can consider it common knowledge. With regard to BTI being explicitly anti-socialist, I went to their "about" page. That's pretty clear on the matter. With regard to the WP:DUE problem the new source (BTI) is slightly different from the old source (the Korean newspaper). As a think tank or NGO, BTI's opinion may be due where some random daily is not. However the statement still represents BTI's opinion so, while it may be due in the lede, it must be accredited to BTI. And in this case, BTI expresses a specific mission to forward "transition to... market economy" - which means they are an organization which explicitly opposes socialist practice. As such, the accreditation must contextualize their opinion as being one which comes from a group that wishes to undo socialism notwithstanding the specifics of Venezuela's economy.Simonm223 (talk) 14:01, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
Would the person who claimed that accrediting the org who made the statement as the org who made the statement is unrelated synth care to explain themself? Because it really looks like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Simonm223 (talk) 19:31, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
I'm not taking the side of either the IP nor Jamez42 as I see both sets of edits as being full of WP:WEASEL problems and both as being used for either a pro or anti-Maduro WP:POVPUSH. But I'm getting pretty tired of IPs and SPAs edit warring in Venezuela articles to make Misplaced Pages into a WP:SOAPBOX for their preferred opinions and I'm half tempted to ask Arbcomm to implement a restrictive sanctions regime here. I suggest you two avoid edit warring, go to talk and also consider editing other areas of Misplaced Pages once in a while. I'm tired of this. And it's getting worse, not better. Everybody stop. Simonm223 (talk) 13:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
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