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Archive 1

HTML special characters

See this link. Anthony Appleyard 06:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Responded to at the link. — SMcCandlish - 08:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

See this link. Anthony Appleyard 11:25, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd also come to Anthony's defence here. Misplaced Pages supports unicode characters and modern browsers do too. Unicode is not Windows specific. Also, despite the fact the &...; markup resulting in correct renderings in any character set, they break search engines. Since all modern browsers support or can support Unicode, I too say keep using Unicode characters. Donama 13:28, 18 April 2006 (UTC) Donama 13:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I concede. The actual Misplaced Pages documentation on how to post says to use "&...;" entity codes, but the technology (fully supporting Unicode) has clearly progressed well ahead of the documentation. — SMcCandlish ツ 13:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

PS: However, I am extremely skeptical of the claim that HTML entity codes break search engines. I've never seen any evidence that is true at all, and I frequently search foreign-language stuff on Google, with no difficulties despite heavy use of entity codes on non-English pages. — SMcCandlish ツ 02:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Censorship

A watered-down version of the proposed policy against censorship is now open for voting. Will you kindly review the policy and make your opinions known? Thank you very much.Loom91 18:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. — SMcCandlish - 04:01, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Logorrhoea

Hi there. I see you've done some work on the Logorrhoea article and was wondering whether or not you had read my comments on the discussion page there. IMHO the section on rhetoric is sub-par in many ways and actually I was considering expanding the mental health part and significantly trimming the rhetoric part, which mostly appears to be the opinion of people who don't like high-falutin' sentence structures.

Are you suggesting we split Logorrhoea into (use in rhetoric) and (use in medicine)? --PaulWicks 12:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Dicussion moved to direct e-mail (short version: YES. Better to split than to remove material.) --Smccandlish 05:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Note to self: Logorrhoea (rhetoric) should just be merged into Prolixity anyway. — SMcCandlish - 05:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You managed to work the word "Logorrhoea" into an edit summary of some work I did on Labile affect. Nice. --PaulWicks 21:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Was vocabulary practice. I'd just been at the L. page, and thought I'd try making myself use it (and even use the UK spelling); I usually use "prolixity"; it sounds less insulting! Heh.  ;-) — SMcCandlish ツ 21:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Epona

Nice copyedits and wikilinking on Epona. I do notice one sunstantial change that might be unintentional - you altered In to In Gaulish and (later) Roman and Gallo-Roman mythology which implies that there is pre-Roman evidence for Epona. If you are aware of any and can cite a reliable source I would be very interested to hear it. As you willsee from the talk page, I have several times reverted well-meaning Celtic mythology edits because ther is no Celtic mythology about Epona. --Nantonos 22:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I don't have any long-lost manuscript materials or anything, just general (mythology, etc.) and more specific (Celtic myth & history) books, loads of them. They generally refer to Epona as a Gaulish and British goddess. The points I would raise:

1) Widespread worship, in Celtic terms. The Roman army did certainly spread gods around in this period, but generally by applying long-established Roman deity names as fore- or aft-names to existing local deities' names.

2) Conversely, Romans were not partciularly prone to adopting Celtic deities wholesale, but rather by using the above merging process to equate them with existing Roman deities (cf. Sulis Minerva, etc., etc., etc. It seems to've been an unbreakable Roman habit!)

3) The name is clearly P-Celtic, more cognate with Greek hippo than Latin equus; cf. the alternative form, Bubona, which is also plainly P-Celtic. If the Romans adopted her from the Celts, they would most likely have taken her name in as a loanword and kept it as Epona, and this appears to be the case. From the evidence I've seen, this was very typical, with the most common Roman changes to Celtic names being to methodically append -us (or -ea, etc.) to them or simplify consonant clusters or diphthongs they found either hard to pronounce (or simply unattractively "barbarian"; cf. Boudicca/Boudiga -> Boadicea). They otherwise tended not to Latinize them in more complex ways such as the q/p distinction.

4) The Gauls on the other hand would have known her most likely as Equinea or something to that effect if she'd been a Roman goddess originally, since they would have taken her name in as a loan word; it's highly doubtful that they would have intuited the cognate morphemes, except perhaps among a tribe that lay on a trade route between Rome and Greece and had learned enough of both languages to understand their relationship to their own.

5) She simply has a Celtic character. <shrug> >;-)

6) That the Romans apprently adopted her so readily (by way of the army) is very strong evidence of widespread and unshakable, and ultimately persuasive, worship among the subject peoples at hand (cf. Mithras), which would be rather unlikey (though not impossible) had Epona been a comparatively recent Roman import TO Gaul.

7) That there is no extant Gaulish mythology concerning Epona is essentially meaningless. The Gauls were largely illiterate, and what little evidence we have about their religions that is not archaeological deduction is highly selective and skewed reporting by the Romans and Greeks. I take your point that we don't have a surviving written mythology of Epona to point to, but "surviving written mythology" is only one meaning of the word "mythology".

8) I'm unaware of any /ekw.../-named Roman (or whatever) goddess in neighboring areas that could point to a common Indo-European horse goddess; she appears to have been "home-grown Celtic" from the evidence so far (that I've seen anyway).

9) I would still insist upon Gallo-Roman religion rather than Roman mythology, or at least as the primary wikilink of the two. By the time Epona made it into "Roman mythology" it's very difficult to conceive of it as a coherent mythology at all, but rather a corruption (or to use a more neutral term, an amalgamation) of actual, historical Roman mythology with myths, legends and new beliefs imported from all over the known world. Calling the Gallo-Roman beliefs of this period "Roman mythology" seems a bit like calling Modern English "Modern Anglo-Saxon" to me.

10) To sum up, there is pre-Roman evidence for Epona. It is geographical and linguistic (and as such also deductive, yes, like archaeological evidence). So I would say: Epona was a Celtic (chiefly Gaulish but also British) goddess, and later a Gallo-Roman goddess integrated into the latter-day, melting-pot phase of so-called "Roman mythology" as an add-on, but clearly not a Roman goddess, and nor properly a goddess in Roman mythology.

11) Solution? My edit was a bit clumsy, but it was intentional and well-reasoned. I think the reasoning is clearer here (even to me!), so perhaps some compromise edit can be arrived at. I'm not wedded to Celtic mythology in the text (though I think it should remain a Category link, because "mythology" also means "pantheon", "religious beliefs", etc., depending on the context the reader brings.) I AM rather wedded to 'goddess in Celtic religion', 'Celtic goddess', or something like that, AND to 'Gallo-Roman goddess' or 'goddess in [[Gallo-Roman religion', the this term being the most apt for the phase of her worship after Roman adoption. I'm quite against 'goddess in Roman mythology' (despite having preserved that wikilink in my original edit) or 'Roman goddess', but OK with 'goddess in later Roman religion', perhaps. How about you? Maybe we can arrive at a happy medium?

--Smccandlish 04:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that your edit was well intentioned; I disagree about the reasoning. Yes, popular books tend to glibly talk of 'Celtic mythology' as if it existed at all ages and all locations. it did not. Welsh and Irish mythology, yes; gaulish mythology, no. There is no pre-Roman mythology - it was not written. (The Gauls were not illiterate, by the way - we have assorted things written in gaulish. But no mythology. There is no mention of Epona in Celtic Mythology. (See however the later Rhiannon and Macha who may have absorbed influences from Epona).

The name is, as you say P Celtic, specifically Gaulish, as the article already points out. This is undisputed. Since Gaulish was spoken up tothe fifth century, that does not preclude a Gallo-Roman origin. (Bubona is, by the way, not an equivalent, regardless of what assorted unreferenced internet deity lists might have you believe.) There are plenty of other words adopted from Gaulish to Latin, such as the words for soap, beer, barrel and ultimately another word for horse, caballos, which is why languages derived from Latin have words like cavaly and cavalcade and cheval.

The [http://www.epona.net/timeline.html timeline of Epona evidence starts in 50-75 AD. This is a full century after the conquest of gaul. Thus, there is evidence for Gallo-Roman Epona and non, zero, for a pre Gallo-Roman Epona. And certainly no mythology.

You state that the pre-Roman evidence for Epona is geographical and linguistic. this is not so. The linguistic evidence is clearly Gaulish, but that does not make it pre-Roman. The geographical evidence, in terms of Epona statuaes and dedications, is all post-conquest and primarily second and third century.

You provide some arguments that Epona was not originally a Roman goddess (ie not imported from Rome to Gaul). Agreed, and I am not saying that, so there is no ned to convince me on that point.

In sum, I'm happy with Gallo-Roman Religion since there is evidence for that - dedications, temples, etc.

--Nantonos 10:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

You know more about the timeline than I do, so I'll concede on that and what relates to it. Other points: I said that the Gauls were *largely* illiterate, not that all of them were. It's clear that the priestly class could write, since we have the religious and funerary inscriptions. But there is no body of Gaulish literature, either because they didn't bother to make one, or it was all lost/destroyed. They obviously HAD a mythology; we just don't have it. And, I didn't say that Latin never imported any Gaulish words. But anyay, okay, I think we can agree on Gallo-Roman religion (the wikilink doesn't work the second capital R), and everybody's happy. :-) --Smccandlish

List of redundant expressions

Seems to be the topic of the week, eh? — SMcCandlish ツ 19:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

LCD

LCD does =not= mean "liquid crystal diode" - a diode is a solid-state device, and a liquid crystal display is not. You might begin by reading the wikipedia article on LCD. I'm not sure who the "we" is when you state that "we" do not need more acronyms - these are often the very source for redundant expressions: HIV virus, ATM machines, and so on. Denni ☯ 18:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

D'oh! I stand corrected on the technology point; I was thinking of LED! But, that has no bearing on the edit. Please actually read the article (List of redundant expressions). It is divided very clearly into an ever-growing list of regular phrases at the top, and a static section with a few examples of acronym-generated redundancies at the bottom, and which then refers people to the RAS syndrome article for more. That is where the list of acronymic redundancies is being maintained, separately and for good reasons; they serve different purposes and necessarily have different content. RAS is a special case - redundancies that are not even detectable as such unless one has extra-syntactic knowledge. There is nothing else like this at all on the redundant expression list. It will be too tedious to explain (and too boring to read) at every such example (and there would soon be hundreds of them, interwoven throughout the list) why it's redundant and what the acronym stands for. The RAS list only has to explain that once, and everything in its list (which is formatted quite differently, to show acronym expansions instead of example phrases) is understood by that article's readers. Wouldn't happen on the redunant expression list; people would get confused (or bored) very quickly. See also the pleonasm article, which posits that a usage the typical RAS cannot truly be considered redundant, in any objective sense, if the speaker/writer does not have the "special knowledge" required to detect the redundancy (either what the acronym stands for or that it even is one at all) - it is only redundant to a reader/listener that has the special knowledge. This is another reason that RASes are mentioned AFTER the rendundant expression list, with a cross ref. to their own article. And, to get back to what was mentioned above, the examples in the redundant expression list require no special knowledge to detect their redundancy other than a simple understanding of word definition/usage. No etymology is required by anything on the list (acronym expansion is definitely a form of etymology.)

PS: The "we" meant "editors of this article", narrowly, and "anyone who reads this article", generally, and "the world at large" in the broadest sense. Who else could it have meant? :-)

— SMcCandlish - 12:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I guess I should also learn to RTFA. I've moved LCD to its proper place. I agree with you that this should not be an exhaustive list - like Euphemism, it ought to contain only the most common terms. As it currently stands, though, I don't think it's unwieldy. Sorry for sounding cranky in my first post. Denni ☯ 16:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, in that case I'm tempted to remove one of the an existing ones then. "If you're allowed to make the acro. list longer in that article, then so is everyone", if you see what I mean, and we'll end up with 800 of them. For this article in particular, these examples should be based on commonness/recognizableness. How often is "LCD display" said/written compared to "PIN number"? Much less. Is there an example presently in that section even less common than "LCD display"? If so, let's nuke that one. — SMcCandlish ツ 19:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"PIN number" gets ~2.8 million hits on Google; "LCD display" gets 21.1 million. Looks like "LCD display" is a tad more common. --SigPig 07:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Just an artifact of the usage pattern. "PIN number" is something people say out loud rather than write/type, 90+% of the time; "LCD display" is naturally going to show up again and again, hundreds of times, in product literature, geeky message boards, online catalogs (almost certainly the reason for the large number of hits - no one is selling anything with built-in 5" color PIN numbers!), and so on., for every time that someone says it out loud. I'm highly skeptical of the utility of Google searches to establish "commonness" except when the context, usage and nature of the search term(s) makes it very clear that the results can be trusted. For example, if you do a search for two different motherboard serial numbers, the Google results are in fact likely to tell you which is the more common. By contrast if you search for li'l, little, lawr, law, guzinta, and "goes into", the results tell you nothing useful at all about how English is actually pronounced dialectically.  :-) Google is a fantastic hammer, but not all statistical questions are nails. — SMcCandlish ツ 05:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

NIC card

Hello! On one of your edits you removed "NIC card", stating "Removed another constructed 'NIC card' example; I do not believe anyone actually says that". I can tell you that as a former NCO in charge of an ADP cell, that's all I ever heard them called by the techies (the noun "card" was included in the description of all cards, even if subsumed already in an acronym, thus graphics cards, sound cards, SCSI cards, NIC cards). As well, Googling "NIC card" (with quotes) nets you about 624,000 hits. So I believe you may be in error in deleting this. --SigPig 05:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I believe you. Never heard it myself (mainly because no one I know, not even technical people, call it a "NIC" OR a "NIC card" or a "network interface card", they just call it a "LAN card", a "wireless card", an "AirPort card" or a "Network card". So I take back that it was just a constructed pseudo-example - it's clear from your deets that people in the industry say it. It doesn't really add anything to either article I edited it out of today, though. In the pleonasm article, which is already long and example-heavy, we only need a handful of examples of each variety, exception, effect, etc. that it talks about. In the List of redundant expressions article, the Acronyms section clearly says it's just some examples and to go see the article's own list for more. I think it would be a grand addition to the RAS Syndrome article's list, though. Just checked; it's already there. — SMcCandlish - 05:38, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, RAS syndrome is a better place for it, and keeping the recursive acronynms on "List of..." to a minimum is a good idea. Tks for the prompt reply. --SigPig 05:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

You betcha. :-) PS: Sorry if the Edit summary sounded harsh; there have been a bunch of genuinely bone-headed edits to both articles in the last month, all of which I dealt with today, and I think I was getting cranky toward the end. Heh. — SMcCandlish - 05:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza

Hello!!

I replyed to your message on the Esperanza talk page, directing you to WP:ESP/FAQ, as I think that might help you understand us a bit. I left a longer message on the talk page if you're interested, but FAQ might be all you need.

Yours, Thε Halo 15:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. However I think you may be missing my point. Whether I personally understand Esperanza is of little consequence. Whether your materials adequately convey what Esperanza is about in general (w/o people having to go look for a FAQ) is far more important. It takes literally about 20 seconds of reading to have a pretty full picture of W:Concordia. After over an hour, I'm still confused about what the point of W:Esperanza really is, if it even has a consensus one at all. I'm not the only one to be getting a spine-tingling "Is this like Scientology or something...?" chill. That's a major "marketing" problem. — SMcCandlish ツ 15:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I do agree you with you on that point (The one about how long it takes to found out about Esperanza, though lots have been said about the image by lotsof others). I put on the talk page sometime ago a note about simplifying and making the main page more clear, but with the redevelopment that we're going through, we've still not round to it. Hopefully things will settle down a bit soon, and then we can, as a group with maybe some outside help as well, figure out a way to better portray ourselves.

I also want to thank you for your comments. I have a feeling that this all will turn out to be very helpful with the course Esperanza takes in the comming months.

Yours, Thε Halo 16:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Keen. Let me know when that time comes, and I will try to help with that. I come from a PR background, so word choice and connotations are things I'm very familiar with at a professional level. — SMcCandlish ツ 16:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer ;) I'll be sure to contact you again in the future, okay? Bye for now. Thε Halo 16:33, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

CornerShot

Thanks for all the help... there isn't many 3rd party sites... can you please help more? CornerShot will be a Good Article before we know it! :-) GangstaEB (sliding logs~dive logs) 22:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye out for stuff, but I fear that it may take someone from a military or police background. A piece of equipment doesn't get accepted by SWAT teams or US commando units without extensive testing and reports and such, but these aren't likely to show up on the Net unless there's something controversial about them. In the interim, isn't there something that can be done for the basic rifle model's entry? Two of the others have extensive stats; seems kind of funny that the common one doesn't. — SMcCandlish ツ 22:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... I do not work for Corner Shot Holdings, Inc... that wasn't astroturfing... I just saw the gun on Future Weapons and thought it needed a Misplaced Pages article. GangstaEB (sliding logs~dive logs)

<nod> I wasn't the one that posted the "astroturfing" edit; in fact, I reverted it as non-NPoV vandalism. :-) If you're responding to the comment in the Edit summary on that reversion, I didn't mean that I agreed with the anon. poster that I really thought astroturfing truly was going on (though I did *initially* suspect that; cf. my earlier comment that the article looked like "autobiography" in WP terms), just that I agreed with the underlying sentiment that the article as a whole read like a brochure. This is much less so now, due to the last day's worth of editing work by everyone. In fact I'd be comfortable with removal of the POV dispute template at this point - the stuff that was purely subjective marketing claims is commented out, and things that need 3rd party citation have been {fact} flagged, and that's good enough to alert readers to questionable facts, IMO. — SMcCandlish ツ 01:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar

My very own barnstar! Thanks for the back-pat. --SigPig 06:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sho' thang. Good work! That article is WAY easier to edit now. — SMcCandlish ツ 11:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It may all be in vain. Looks like their sniffing around for another AfD -- checkout the discussion page. --SigPig 17:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Books guideline proposal

Hi. My subpage was just used to compose a first draft before posting the proposed guideline. It was made into a project page the same day, and is here.--Fuhghettaboutit 15:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Then can you remove the active category link on the subpage or something? The point was, if you are in the 'Misplaced Pages notability guidelines' category, this page appears there, and if you go to it, it says (or said) that it's a Guideline, which it isn't. So, it either shouldn't say that, shouldn't be in the category, or probably both. :-) — SMcCandlish ツ 16:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Too late, within seconds of your change, I blanked that page entirely, and struck out the link on Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (books) and added a link to where the proposal is. I'm not sure why it was propagating into the category—I had nowiki tags around the category link. Oh...I bet the guideline template has an internal category link. Academic now.--Fuhghettaboutit 16:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Keen-o.  :-) — SMcCandlish ツ 20:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Active guideline

The consensus on the wikipedia:naming conventions (books) guideline *including notes on notability* was prior to wikipedia:notability (books) being started. There is no consensus on that new proposal. Until there is, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)#Note on notability criteria is the *active* guideline on book notability. --Francis Schonken 15:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Out of plain curiosity, I'd like to see evidence of that, specifically that the passage in question was present and substantively identical to its current wording at the pont of transition from a draft Guideline on book naming conventions to a non-draft one. But it's a moot point. It is almost ludicrously inappropriate for a non-controversial guideline on naming conventions to have a totally off-topic rider in it that attempts to set a guideline in one of the most hotly-debate spheres of Misplaced Pages, namely "notability". If this rider was present in the original draft naming convention for books, it is entirely possible that the only reason it survived is precisely because it was a hidden rider - few who would have any reason to object would ever notice it and weigh in. If it ever represented any form of consensus at all it was only a consensus among people who a) care about book naming conventions, and (not or) b) either support the vague notability rider, didn't notice it or didn't care either way. Ergo it it not a real Misplaced Pages consensus at all. But even this is moot. The existence of an active push to develop Misplaced Pages:Notability (books) demonstrates that there is in fact no consensus at all, period, that the notability rider in the naming article is valid. If it remains, I'm taking this to arbitration, because I believe the presence of the rider to be deceptive and an abuse of the Policy/Guideline formulation process and consensus mechanism. — SMcCandlish ツ 16:23, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• From proposal to guideline, 09:07, 25 January 2006 — no changes to the "Note on notability criteria" section.
• From the day it became guideline to today, 16:29, 23 July 2006 — no changes to the "Note on notability criteria" section.

--Francis Schonken 16:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. But as I said, I think this is a moot point. — SMcCandlish ツ 17:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Warning

Please refrain from removing content from Misplaced Pages, as you did to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books). It is considered vandalism. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you.

You reverted the *consensus* version of Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)#Note on notability criteria to the version you had proposed earlier today. That version of yours is not consensus, and you knew that when you reverted. For guidelines one needs a new consensus for major changes. Yours was a major change. It had no consensus. So I'm posting this warning on your user page, and will then proceed to revert the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (books)#Note on notability criteria section to the version that had consensus when that became a guideline about half a year ago.

You're welcome to discuss other versions of that section (whether that be a temporary version until Misplaced Pages:Notability (books) becomes guideline or a more permanent solution) on the Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (books) talk page. But consensus is needed before it can be moved to the guideline page. --Francis Schonken 16:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Cute, but a total misdirection (as to at least three claims, of consensus, my tacit agreement that consensus existed, and new edit not reflecting consensus, and possibly a forth, as to edit scope. I do in fact dipute, in more than one way, that the section in question represents any meaningful consensus, for reasons already stated and evidenced. I contend that it is someone's "pet" section and removable as such; that it is an off-topic insertion and thus subject to removal on other grounds; and that even if it had some merit at one point it has been superceded by the current Wikipedian editors' consensus on this topic (which is that the topic needs a Guideline, period, so one has been started as a Proposal; notably it is not a consensus that the rider needs editing and improvement; rather it is being replaced, to the extent its existence has even been acknowledged. To continue, I further assert that removing the rider would in fact be a consensus move. Misplaced Pages:Notability (books) would not be well on the way to becoming a Guideline if there were any consensus that the off-topic notability rider in the naming guideline already had any consensus support whatsoever. It is very notable that no one has proposed a section merger or in any other way addressed the rider as valid or worth even thinking about. It is simply being ignored. And I assert further that it is at least questionable whether it is a "major edit" to remove a small section that is more adequately covered by another article (whether that article is considered "finished" or not) that has a lot more editorial activity and interest, and replace the redundant section it with a cross-reference to the latter, as I did.

The fact that no one has even touched the rider at all since Jan. strongly supports my points that a) virtually no one who cares about notability of books is aware of it, got to debate its inclusion, or even considers it worth working on or authoritative in any way, because the topic of how to define book notability is generating quite a bit of activity on the other article; and therefore b) it reflects no consensus on the topic of book notability, period. Which is what one would expect, given that it's buried at the bottom of an article about spelling! I also dispute the notion that an approved Guideline on is also an approved Guideline on unrelated just because it happens to mention some ideas relating to how to deal with . If you are aware of another example, I'd love to see it.

PS: I'm posting most of this, with further (case-closing, in my opinion) facts, references and evidence, on the article's talk page, since otherwise the debate won't affect anyone's views other than yours and/or mine in User_talk.

— SMcCandlish ツ 17:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Jamie in American English

On the Talk page for James, you asked:

"Is American "Jaime" an anglicization of Spanish "Jaime" or a hispanification of English "Jamie"?"

Wrong Romance language, actually! ;)

I was always told that it comes from the French "Jaime" (there may or may not be an accent mark over that "e" in the original French, I'm not sure), rather than the Hispanic one. I'm pretty sure this is correct, as the name "Jaime" in French is both feminine and pronounced much more closely to the English "Jamie" than the Hispanic "Jaime" is. Supporting this assertion, further, is the fact that in Hispanic culture "Jaime" is a boy's name, whereas in French-speaking cultures, it is usually a feminine name; and in America, at least, the spelling "Jaime" is almost exclusively used for girls (I should know; I'm a girl named "Jamie", and people are ALWAYS trying to spell it "Jaime" - sometimes my own friends have forgotten and spelled it like that!).

"Jamie" in American culture has also been gaining widespread usage in recent years as a gender-neutral name (see: my own name, Jamie O'Neal's name, that woman who played Wonder Woman, etc.), and has been used more and more each post-Feminism decade as a girl's name (though it may or may not be as popular or moreso as a boy's name in that spelling; I haven't checked). For instance, the woman who played Wonder Woman on TV in the 1970s had the first name of Jamie. However, this doesn't really just seem limited to Americans, contrary to what the listing on James says; for instance, Jamie O'Neal (who though she did change her surname, did not change her given name), a relatively famous female singer in country music circles, is actually originally from Australia. In contrast, however, there seems to be no movement in America to de-feminize the "Jaime" spelling; I've never met a person named that who was male and not Hispanic as well. ;)

Hope that clears it up? Runa27 04:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the entry should reflect that in the UK "Jaime" is more often than not a male name, and comes from French, and that in America is usually a female name from the same source, except in the Southwest where it is fairly frequent as a man's name (yes, most often Hispanics, but not Spanish speakers, pronouncing it jay-mee, not hai-may) and comes from Spanish. I've lost interest in the article so I'm unlikely to make the edit myself. — SMcCandlish ツ 21:34, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Glossary of pool, billiards and snooker terms

I wish I had known you could make internal article links in the shortened format you used! I made probably 450 of the 500 links by hand over time (nodding head in chagrin). I hope you used a search and replace function in a word processing program for that edit. Thanks for that and additions. I had been meaning to add a definition for the big ball concept, as I play a huge amount of three cushion, but hadn't gotten around to it.--Fuhghettaboutit 21:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I used BBEdit to do that. NO WAY I would have done that by hand! :-) — SMcCandlish ツ 21:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, today is the last day of the the 2006 Sang Lee International three cushion tournment at Carom Cafe in Queens, New York. You can watch a live video feed at http://caromtv.com/home.html. All the best players in the world are there. I just checked and Semih Sayginer is playing someone (didn't watch long enough to see who). I just tried to link Semih's name and am shocked to see we don't have and article on him. Shows you how poor our three cushion coverage is. He is, after all current ranked #3 in the world.--Fuhghettaboutit 21:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see, he's giving an artistic billiards exhibition. He's by far the best in the world at that!--Fuhghettaboutit

Overall cuesports coverage on Misplaced Pages needs a lot of work. I mean, heck, we only just a few weeks ago split the shot-type terminology list (or whatever it was called) out of the main Billiards article. The wretched inconsistency of terms relating to eight-ball and nine-ball is driving me nuts. See my User page for a link to a draft I'm working on to deal with this (its presently phrased as a post to Nine-ball's Talk page, but I think I'll do it as a Guideline proposal instead now that I've worked it up with a quite a lot of detail and reasoning. — SMcCandlish ツ 22:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That is a very interesting and well thought out proposal and I would support it. By the way, I wrote pretty much every word of the "shot-type terminology list" now forked out to Billiard Techniques (with horrible and completely incorrect additions and a removal of logical text). When I first stumbled on billiards as a brand new user it was in a sorry state (not that it isn't now), and rewrote it. The glossary, also forked by a different user is mostly my text as well. The thing is, I live and breath billiards in real life. When I first came here I was appalled by the poor coverage and thought I would spend my time writing hundreds of player profiles, etc., but after an initial start, I have mostly concentrated my efforts elsewhere. Sometimes you want to get away from subjects you are very close to. Since you seem knowledgable (unlike many of the contributors who have been involved in the area) I'm glad you're involved.--Fuhghettaboutit 22:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It's been my experience that if you consistently revert stupid edits, and justify them (in Edit Summary, or if necessary on the Talk page) they tend to stick around, and dumb edits will go down over time. Vigilance! — SMcCandlish ツ 23:00, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Notability of books

Hi. Given that you were part of the debate on Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (books), I'd like to have your opinion and advice on my attempt to form consensus to delete the notability section of that guideline. Thanks. Pascal.Tesson 07:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I weighed in on the Talk page topic. Rather forcefully. I don't mind playing Bad Cop. — SMcCandlish ツ 22:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Out on a wikibreak? I had completely forgot that I had left this message on your talk page! In any case, thanks. Good cop or no good cop I have taken that opportunity to simply edit the paragraph so that it basically says: if you want to know about notability of books this is not the right place to read about it. By the way, your comments are also very welcome on the talk page of WP:BK if you happen to have an opinion on the current version. Cheers, Pascal.Tesson 23:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I had to take a break from this stuff for a while. As for WP:BK, I'm an inclusionist, so my opinion of WP:BK will be the same as that of all of the notability guidelines (i.e., they should be abandoned). It does no harm at all (unless the Wikimedia Foundation is running out of disk space) to have "non-notable" topics in an e-encyclopedia; non-notable articles simply won't be read by many people, and the few that do actually seek out an article on such a topic will be glad that it wasn't deleted for alleged non-notability. I may drop in to WP:BK to try to shift it toward being less deletionist, though. We'll see. If it's more-or-less consistent with the other such guidelines, I probably won't bother. — SMcCandlish ツ 02:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Article getting broken up

Hi Mr. McCandlish,

I noticed on the Association of Mergist Wikipedians page that you're a mergist, too. I have been writing an article about the letter t, but editors have begun to break it up into nonsensical entries, like Abbreviations and symbols of T. So, I was wondering if you could do me a huge favor and possibly give your opinion here? If you could, I would be greatly in your debt.

Best wishes,

Macaw 54 09:48, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've looked into it, but so far I agree with the edits made thus far. Sorry. I think the disambiguation stuff does belong on a disambig. page. The "70K is too big" ranter, I am a little concerned about. If it gets out of hand, let me know and I'll see about weighing in. Not that I bring all that much weight with me, mind you. — SMcCandlish ツ 22:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Three-ball

Actually I'd seen the new page creation in Special:Newpages and noticed it'd been a copy/paste move. Unfortunately moving the page in this way destroys the history of the page. It's not a huge problem, but strictly speaking it does break the terms of the GFDL. I've corrected it, but for the future, it's better to make use of the "move" tab at the top. Happy editing! GeeJo ⁄_(c) • 23:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point! I'd completely forgotten about that. Out of practice, I guess! Thanks for fixing. Did my replacement of the old, sparse article text with the new comprehensive text, after your fix, break anything further? — SMcCandlish ツ 23:08, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Harsh

The edit that you so reverted to included the phrase "Some topics are considered of inherent value for inclusion without the assertion of notability" and yet you conclude that this does not mean "nclude mountains regardless of notability"; could you please explain this dichotomy? Incidentally, why on earth is that a "harsh" edit? (Radiant) 17:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstood you, but you removed a passage that in effect stated that mountains (and the like) are inherently notable, with an edit summary that said you were doing this because mountains should be inherently notable. <fzzt pop spark> Does not compute! Does not compute!  :-) And, yes I conculde that it does not mean "include mountains regardless of notability"; it means that they already are inherently notable. I said it was a "harsh" edit, because it removed a very significant passage - the one saying that certain things are not even subject to notability criteria because of their inherent nature, and which gave examples of what sorts of things qualify; it's a passage that has been depended upon many times in preventing AfDs that shouldn't happen; and the edit wasn't (unless I somehow missed it) discussed in Talk:Notability for consensus-building purposes. Just seemed kind of random. However much I may have issues with how Misplaced Pages:Notability is sometimes misused, it is a Guideline and to me shouldn't be willy-nilly edited in a substantive way (e.g., fixing typos wouldn't be an issue) without prior discussion, or another round of flameouts are likely on the already overheaded talk page. Heh. Again, I may have misunderstood what you were getting at with that edit, but at present it seems to me that you are misunderstanding what the disputed sentence means and the ramifications of removing it. — SMcCandlish ツ 17:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Okay, it seems we're not quite on the same wavelength :) The way it's phrased is important. The wording I object to implies that some kinds of articles get a "free pass" because of their nature. I disapprove of that reasoning, mainly because this forces us to enumerate all those natures that get free passes, and argue over the exceptions and so forth. Instead, I think (and this is backed by AFD precedent) that mountains need establish notability just like anything else - it just so happens that it's easier to establish notability for e.g. the Matterhorn than it would be for the birch tree in my back yard. In practice all mountains on this here planet turn out to be notable, but there may be quite a bunch e.g. on Pluto that are not.
• By the way, if your issue is that things shouldn't be changed without discussion, note that this text was recently added without discussion, contested by someone else, added again, and then replaced by my version as an intended compromise.
• Also by the way, it seems to me the guideline isn't disputed, but the present wording is under debate. Yes, there are always some people who do not like a particular guideline (and in this case there are also several who believe it should be policy for some reason) but what matters is whether the page is accepted by consensus. (Radiant) 10:16, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll just back out of this one, then. If you revert my revert, I'll leave it alone.  :-)

> Also by the way, it seems to me the guideline isn't disputed,

Well, except that a bunch of us have been disputing its validity for some time. Of 200ish articles I'm watching, not one of them has anywhere near the Talk page traffic that one does, the only ones with article edit rates that high are ones I'm working on in draft form myself in my own userspace, and none have anywhere near the level of vitriol.

> but the present wording is under debate.

That too, certainly. I'm not sure what distinction you are trying to draw between "the guideline" and "the wording of the guideline", when all the guideline consists of is wording... But anyway, what I see is that A) a number of people (and this isn't new; they've been fighting this the whole time, and making new converts, including myself for quite a while) don't think this should be a guideline at all. B) Others (like me presently) think the process is bad AND that the guideline's text needs a lot of work, wording-wise. While C) even many of its supporters as a guideline also think it is worded poorly. I'm not sure what "disputed" means if it doesn't mean this.

> Yes, there are always some people who do not like a particular guideline

A significant number in this casel juding by the talk page, by the Non-notability essay, by the outright failure of two earlier notability guidelines to go anywhere, etc.

> (and in this case there are also several who believe it should be policy for some reason)

Well, that one's obvious - if it becomes Policy those pesky inclusionists will just have to shut up and sit down.

> but what matters is whether the page is accepted by consensus.

Indeed. My contention and that of most of the other critics of WP:NN is that consensus has not been reached, that the guideline did not actually achieve nearly enough consensus to be labelled a guideline (especially after the putsch failed twice in a row and spawned the competing non-NN draft, and so on), and that the consensus situation is actually worse for NN now than it was even just a few months ago because of the level of "voting" abuse going on in AfD based on it.

I don't mean to rant about this. I'm just saying there's a *presumption* of consensus, but little *evidence* of it. I'm not even opposed to the idea that WP needs a NN guideline, or even Policy. There are some dork articles in an acre of articlespace that I care a lot about, and I can't wait to get them AfD'd. I've even written a draft notabilty guideline for billiards. I just have serious problems with the way NN works right now. I'm a big fan of certain notability-derived guidelines that are much less contentious, especially WP:NFT. Not sure what else to add, really.  :-) — SMcCandlish ツ 10:42, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Wanted cuesport bios

Here's a start: User talk:Fuhghettaboutit/subpage/Wanted cue sports bios.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I happened across that by accident as was about to link to it from the draft Wikiproject Cue sports page. :-) — SMcCandlish ツ 01:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Added to the Todo list. I take it the "Wanted cue sports bios" list itself should eventually move into the WikiProject space? — SMcCandlish ツ 10:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but it's probably better it waits until the cuesports project is posted—then it can be moved to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cue sports/Wanted cue sports bios.--Fuhghettaboutit 01:40, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of cue sports bios, I just posted Irving Crane. It's also up for DYK.--Fuhghettaboutit 11:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Schweet! It'd be nice to do something with the player sidebar, too. I adapted the snooker one, but it needs improvement probably. And forking into a variant for non-current players like Crane (the current one focuses on present-day tournament stats.) — SMcCandlish ツ 00:44, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Please elaborate

What cognitive dissonance? --RobertG ♬ talk 14:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Collective. I don't think I was entirely understanding what the original template was for (I thought people were doing the moves not bots, thus the unclear wording), and I don't think you were grokking with fullness the purpose of the variant, which admittedly was badly written.  ;-) — SMcCandlish ツ 21:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I read it again and I have decided I do understand after all. I take it from the edit that you do want robotic help moving any categories with this template on? - because that's what will happen! --RobertG ♬ talk 14:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that's the case (though not what I'd original expected would happen). If someone creates a wonky category called "Pool sharks on the West Coast", and we use this template to say everything in there should be moved to "American pool players", then if a bot carries that out for us, that would be grand! Are there any clear dangers I'm unaware of? Is there a human-processed equivalent of the bot-processed category? That might come in handy some times? It's probably not a huge deal for my purposes, but the template variant was intended to be general-use, not just for Wikiproject Cue sports. — SMcCandlish ツ 21:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

No real pitfalls, although in the case you cite I think the better option would be to nominate it for deletion or rename or merge at WP:CFD which normally works quite smoothly. The original {{category redirect2}} is done by hand, I believe, which is one reason why it doesn't put articles in Category:Misplaced Pages category redirects! I assume that the template variant we are talking about can at some point be replaced on the category with {{category redirect}}? --RobertG ♬ talk 10:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

League of Copyeditors

I just wanted to take a few moments to welcome you to the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject League of Copyeditors. You have already been a big help both on the project page and in the Coolie article copyedit. Normally, I take this time to encourage new members to introduce themselves and get involved on the discussion page, but you have already jumped right into the project.

I am looking forward to working with you. Your help is more than appreciated, especially since my time recently has been a bit limited. If you have any comments or questions, feel free to leave them on my talk page. Trusilver 04:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Glad to be of service. :-) Your WProj is one of several that organize the kinds of activities I just do at random when I see problem articles anyway, so why not! — SMcCandlish ツ 04:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyedit portal

Hi

I find it very disturbing and depressing that huge amounts of WP editing time are wasted on unnecessary and clearly amateur discussions of naming and spelling issues. Judging by your user page and extensive edit history, you of course realise that almost all discussions on language use by normal people (i.e. not professional copyeditors or linguists) make fools of almost all participants and that they waste a very large part of editing efforts on WP. I'm getting so fed up with this nonsense that i'd like to ask you what you think about the idea of setting up a copyedit portal or copyedit emergency squad to get some sanity and professionalism into this completely amateur aspect of WP. I see you're a stickler in terms of conventional spelling and WP policies and spend a lot of time trying to fight chaos. I've asked a few linguists to join my project, but it would be good to also have members with more traditional approaches to copyedit issues. As you know, almost all modern linguists have a purely scientific approach to language and consider anything OK as long as it's used by more than a few people, and even then they don't label it wrong in anything not communal like a wiki. See Talk:Académie française and Talk:Genealogy#reverts_of_WP:OR.2C_private_.28conspiracy.29_theories.2C_and_other_nonsense for more details... --Espoo 09:22, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. I'd suggest starting it as a WikiProject first, though, I think. For the record, as a linguist (non-pro; I was a linguistics major) I of course am a descriptive grammarian, but as a Wikipedian I tend toward prescriptiveness when articles look sloppy and amateurish, or when there is no defensible reason to stray from consensus formal English. But see also my cue sports spelling conventions draft Guideline, which deliberately eschews some prescriptivist notions, like hyphenation of compound adjectives, when Misplaced Pages article clarity might be at risk. Also I am essentially a professional copyeditor and writer when I'm not doing web development (or futzing around on WP...), so I am probably a good fit. I'd also suggest going over the exting WikiProjects, Portals, TaskForces, etc., to ensure that this wouldn't overlap significantly with any of them (see for example the message here immediately above yours.) See also my main userpage in the Wikitivities section for links to some other Misplaced Pages cleanup projects that might be of relevance. I haven't even found them all yet... — SMcCandlish ツ 09:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't find that (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject League of Copyeditors) despite searching because it's not in the category "copy editing". (I tried to add the cat just now but couldn't figure out how; somehow the other cats are not listed in the edit version like on other pages.) Looks like someone already started my project, but judging by the very small nummber of users, it's not doing a good job recruiting help or getting itself advertised to provide emergency help. I'll look at the other links you mention too. Thanks, --Espoo 11:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Espoo, I strongly support your thoughts on a Portal. I've already joined the Wikiproject by the way, and I was led here on the talk page. How lucky I am! This would be a great portal in my opinion. I also agree that grammar mistakes make Misplaced Pages a bit foolish and amateur-like. Good Luck, Kyo cat 22:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed the WikiProject's categorization. The other cats it shows in rendered view aren't in the code because they're put there by templates, FYI. Anyway, it's pretty new and I think it is doing a good job recruiting, compared to many other WProjs of the same age. At least one new person joined less than 24hrs after I did yesterday. See my draft wikiproject on another category, about 90% of which I put together in one afternoon. A similar mega-edit of that sort could really get the existing WProj on copyediting jump started (esp. a to-do list with actual targets!). I honestly don't think a Portal is warranted at this stage, unless the WProj on the same topic really takes off. That is to say, rather than competing with this group just Be Bold and get heavily involved in making it live up to the standards you're envisioning. That's something I think I could support strongly. See its talk page on "getting itself advertised" - I've recommended a "WikiProject League of Copyeditors Article Clean-up in Progress" talk page banner (which I may create myself if someone doesn't beat me to it), and have already created a userbox for it, so the recruitment problem is probably on the way to becoming a moot issue (or another way of looking at it, a competing Portal would have precisely the same needs.) Not trying to squish any ideas, just saying collaborate where possible. — SMcCandlish ツ 02:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with everything you say and have changed my proposal accordingly on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_League_of_Copyeditors#copyedit_emergency_squad. --Espoo 11:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Article

WP:CSD states that non-notable subjects may be deleted. (A7). Hopwever I will userfy the content. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 15:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll have a look-see at it. — SMcCandlish ツ 00:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Looking it over, it does appear to be subject to WP:DEL#Problem articles where deletion may be needed, row 2, under WP:WEB, and I don't think it would have survived AfD due to WP:V, WP:VANITY, WP:AUTO and WP:NPOV issues, unless seriously cleaned up. Sorry for the false alarm. Reason/excuse: The AfD didn't say it was a webcomic, but a comic, and "Notability (books)" (which I believe would cover paper comics) is still a just a draft proposal, so the SD looked like it might have been overzealous at first glance. — SMcCandlish ツ 00:52, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Userbox fix

Thanks for the information... I use Safari myself and was wondering how to fix that. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 16:16, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

No prollem. I often find that twiddling template order fixes things; some of them conflict in very unexpected ways. — SMcCandlish ツ 00:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

XPLANE deletion review

Hi SMcCandlish, Would you mind weighing in on the deletion review for XPLANE at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2006 November 24? The subject of notability is part of the issue and your comments/opinions are much appreciated.Dgray xplane 16:05, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it. Be aware that I'm not an admin, so my input won't count any more than anyone else's. — SMcCandlish ツ 00:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Your thoughts are much appreciated. FYI, I don't necessarily think an admin's vote should count higher than anyone else's either. I know "Misplaced Pages is not a democracy" but I'm still trying to understand what it IS. :)

As a newbie I have made my mistakes, but my philosophy is that mistakes are only bad when they are not learning experiences. And so far I have learned a lot from the mistakes I've made here.Dgray xplane 02:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Stub standard?

Get a standard for all the highway stubs out there. Some are called California-State-Highway-stub, some are Kentucky-road stub, etc. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 00:59, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I thought you meant some change to the way stubs in general are standardized.  :-) Still, your narrower area of interest in that regard sounds like a Good Thing. — SMcCandlish ツ 01:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Apology

I seem to have somehow offended you at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability. I apologize for whatever I must have said to cause your response under the "Example 3" header. I've never been accused of borderline trolling before, and I'm kind of hurt by the accusation. I've been working hard on that page in good faith, and I'm certainly not trolling, by any definition of the term that I'm aware of. Your response makes it clear to me that you've misunderstood various things I said, and yet you complain that I misunderstood various things you said. You seem very impatient with the fact that I don't already understand you, but you seem not to already understand me, and I'm not mad at you about that. I'm not looking for any kind of combative debate, but for mutual understanding, and above all, mutual respect. I like participating in discussions where participants treat one another with a high degree of courtesy and dignity. If you're not interested in that, then I suggest we not communicate any more, which I would find sad, but necessary.

Please consider that your impressions about me may be mistaken, and that we may agree on more than it seems. Also, please accept my apology for rubbing you the wrong way; I assure you it was not my intention. -GTBacchus 09:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, then I apologize. I should not let my frustration let my civility lapse. I'm not trying to bash you, I'm simply exceedingly frustrated that I've had to go over and over the same arguments again and again. If you read the last 6 or so entire topics on that talk page (yes, it's a lot of reading, but it's pretty substantive) all of the questions you are raising have already been addressed, most of them several times; that's all. Re: mutual misunderstandings: I agree, which is why I suggested starting a new topic where you explain those two closely-related concepts of yours (the objective notability idea and, I think you called it "graininess"). There literally isn't anything further at all I can say about my views on WP:NN, regarding anything raised thus far, that have not already been said multiple times on that talk page in that last three days (i.e., I'm done); meanwhile whatever ideas you are trying to get across (to everyone there; whether I personally "get" them is perhaps of limited if any importance) are being drowned in the flood of "debate with SMcCandlish" messages. "Be Bold" and start your own topic.

PS: I've apologized on the NN talk page. Hope that helps smooth things over. I am a forceful debator, and can be collectively pushed into a short temper, but I shouldn't have taken it out on you personally, and I'm not here to piss people off or make them feel bad! — SMcCandlish ツ 10:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate that very much. I will post a new topic attempting to explain myself better. I won't do it until I'm satisfied that I've found a better way to articulate my idea (which are not mine in the first place), which apparently haven't come across in our exchange up to now, or so it seems to me. I'd like it if I thought you knew what I meant, a bit. So far I haven't gotten that impression; I've mostly picked up on a lot of frustration. I find that getting things done at Misplaced Pages involves a lot of repetition, and the person hearing the 100th iteration doesn't really know why you're so upset, because for them it's the 1st.

I'll see you back at the project talk page. -GTBacchus 19:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

re: ]

You do realize that you got suckered by the anon who is pushing for the creation of this inflammatory redirect, don't you? I'm re-deleting in deference to this discussion rejecting the proposed redirect but I'm going to leave the Talk page in place to document the problem. Rossami (talk) 15:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not realize that; I'm simply not that "wikipolitical" (the only issue I care about in that area is WP:NN's bogus claims to being a Guideline and its direct conflict with Policy at WP:V and WP:DP, a hot debate topic at Misplaced Pages talk:Notability). As long as WP:NUKE actually goes somewhere such that a non-moron can figure out what was intended and get to the historical material being cited, then I'll be happy. I think it would be preferable that WP:NUKE go to a page marked historical/inactive, and that it tell people that what they are probably looking for is WP:DEL. But this present situation with an extant Talk page is better than just having it gone completely. I.e., mixed feelings on your partial revert. I do agree that "NUKE" is confrontational/antagonistic and should not appear in the list of "official" shortcuts on the WP:DEL page. This could perhaps be resolved by removing the "R from shortcut" and just having it be a redirect. Or the historical/inactive template being put in there, or something. My only concern here is that redlinking it has a negative impact on currently active Policy/Guideline debates. — SMcCandlish ツ 23:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

No trolling

Hi.

I'm that guy who posted the post that you claimed had all those logical fallacies in it (now that I've gone over the arg it seems that maybe it did have holes in it...), and I wanted to say to you that I was not intending to troll, and no "malice" was intended. I guess I felt a little strongly about my position on WP:N, however I'm going to back down now, considering that you seem to be getting stressed out like crazy with all these people hammering on you (look at how HUGE the threads have gotten there), and I don't want to cause any more problems, so I'm leaving this debate for now. There was only one question I would like to have answered: how would you get the admins to change that "NN! Delete!" mentality, anyway? Just maybe it could help me understand your position a little better. But anyway, the debate between you and me is, at least for now, over. 70.101.147.74 00:26, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Noted, and sorry if I offended. As for the question here, I've just addressed that in my last or next-to-last post to the NN talk page. Will also update my apology on the NN page to include you as well as GT. — SMcCandlish ツ 00:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Just read the response. So, you're saying then the way to get them to try and change is to get WP:NN removed from guideline status, so nobody can use it's "vague" "multiple non-trivial sources" "definition" to try and delete everything in sight? That could actually make some sense: I'm not a big fan of the ultra-deletionist approach either, by the way. I just wanted to have rigor and something compatible with established Misplaced Pages tradition, but if this isn't it, then I guess that's the way it is. Well, we'll see how things turn out, then... The debate, at least for now and at least between me (I don't know about the others, though) and you, by the way, is now over (I know, I said so on WT:N, but I thought I'd reiterate it here just to emphasize this point.). I think the discussion was quite good, actually. Thanks a lot for all the answers and the discussion! It went a lot better than some other online debates I've had, that's for sure. 70.101.147.74 01:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's pretty much my take on it. Cheers! — SMcCandlish ツ 03:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)