| Revision as of 17:16, 16 August 2019 editEl C (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Administrators183,782 edits Enough. If you accuse another user of Holocaust denial again without especially strong evidence, you will be blocked from editing, for a significant duration, up to and including indefinite← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:21, 16 August 2019 edit undoSir Joseph (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers19,854 edits →LibelNext edit → | ||
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| ::::::::::I can remove all this real quickly if you resolve it, just tell me how many people died in the Holocaust. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC) | ::::::::::I can remove all this real quickly if you resolve it, just tell me how many people died in the Holocaust. ] <sup>]</sup> 16:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::The official number from historians is around 6 million. I never said 75% of 6 million as you just suggested. I have never in my life argued against the number 6 million. I merely stated that some people have exaggerated the number. Some, as in the definition: "at least a small amount or number of people or things". How can anyone mistake that for the agreed upon number by historians? Of course some people exaggerate. Look, this was not a discussion of an article. It was a freewheeling UTP discussion about a possible essay about the fucking Nazi's that come into WP. My obvious point was that it was millions and that makes it monstrous, no matter what the exact number. And, it's stupid to exaggerate a number that is already monstrous. Since it was just a UTP discussion between a few anti-Nazi's about a prospective essay, I didn't think I'd have to dot every i as I knew no one in that discussion would think for a second that I was a Holocaust denier. ] (]) 17:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC) | :::::::::::The official number from historians is around 6 million. I never said 75% of 6 million as you just suggested. I have never in my life argued against the number 6 million. I merely stated that some people have exaggerated the number. Some, as in the definition: "at least a small amount or number of people or things". How can anyone mistake that for the agreed upon number by historians? Of course some people exaggerate. Look, this was not a discussion of an article. It was a freewheeling UTP discussion about a possible essay about the fucking Nazi's that come into WP. My obvious point was that it was millions and that makes it monstrous, no matter what the exact number. And, it's stupid to exaggerate a number that is already monstrous. Since it was just a UTP discussion between a few anti-Nazi's about a prospective essay, I didn't think I'd have to dot every i as I knew no one in that discussion would think for a second that I was a Holocaust denier. ] (]) 17:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::::::::That is not how your quote reads. Read it again. You are implying that fewer than six million died in the Holocaust, it's obviously millions, it's still bad, even if it's just 75% of six million. Again, I'm just reading your words as their written. You may wish to clarify that then. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:21, 16 August 2019 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 17:21, 16 August 2019
The below quote is from someone else:
Anyone who complains of anti-Semitism, while silently ignoring the massive daily evidence of the humiliations, harassment and violence dealt out on a systematic basis in Gaza and the West Bank, is ranting hollowly to my ear.
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Please comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion. Legobot (talk) 04:33, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Libel
The out of context statement at the top of this page should get you bounced permanently from WP. You are suggesting that I am a Holocaust denier. Among my ancestry are Jews that escaped persecution, and now this. My point, inelegantly made, was that the Holocaust was evil beyond words and that the exact number of deaths is irrelevant to this monstrosity. It is millions. You are doing this because we are in the middle of a article disagreement. This is the worst example of retribution I have seen in my 12 years at WP. It is no wonder that your block log is so lengthy. Remove this immediately. O3000 (talk) 14:57, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- It's not out of context, it's a direct quote from you. I took it verbatim from the talk page. Sir Joseph 15:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Also, that quote has been up there for ages, I just put your name there now. BTW, how many Jews died in the Holocaust? You can answer now if you want. Sir Joseph 15:05, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- It is out of context. We were talking about the evils of Nazism. Whether it is 5, 6, 7 million, it's evil and the Holocaust which you are saying I'm denying. Something like 40 million total died in WWII. There is no way that I can allow this monstrous false accusation to stay here. Last chance to remove it. O3000 (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- I don't understand how quoting your words is libel. Please clarify. They are your words, and I quoted them in full. Sir Joseph 15:16, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Also, the Holocaust only refers to the death of six million Jews, not to the other deaths during WWII. So not sure why you are putting in the 40 million in your sentence which has no bearing on your quote. Sir Joseph 15:19, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Sir Joseph - beyond full quotations clearly not being libel, claiming you are performing libel would seem to be a possible legal threat. WP:NLT.Icewhiz (talk) 15:21, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- You stated that it was Holocaust denial. That's a goddamn lie. The Holocaust was one of the worst acts in Human history. The Wannsee Conference is an example I give of ultimate evil. By my ancestors, this lie will not stand. O3000 (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- It is a form of Holocaust denial, read the links. Stating that it's 75% or whatever, is a form of Holocaust denial. I quoted your full statement, which as @Icewhiz: pointed out, can't be libel. You are in violation of NLT. Sir Joseph 15:25, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Bullshit. That article says there are lots of estimates. I don't know the number. It is millions, it happened, and it was evil beyond measure. I have never denied the Holocaust. Claiming that you deny the Holocaust because you don't now the exact number is nonsensical. Calling someone a Holocaust denier who despises the Third Reich as strongly as I is sick. Remove your libel now. O3000 (talk) 15:32, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- It is a form of Holocaust denial, read the links. Stating that it's 75% or whatever, is a form of Holocaust denial. I quoted your full statement, which as @Icewhiz: pointed out, can't be libel. You are in violation of NLT. Sir Joseph 15:25, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- It is out of context. We were talking about the evils of Nazism. Whether it is 5, 6, 7 million, it's evil and the Holocaust which you are saying I'm denying. Something like 40 million total died in WWII. There is no way that I can allow this monstrous false accusation to stay here. Last chance to remove it. O3000 (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Also, that quote has been up there for ages, I just put your name there now. BTW, how many Jews died in the Holocaust? You can answer now if you want. Sir Joseph 15:05, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
SJ, regardless of who is right here, it says on WP:UP#POLEMIC that "Material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws" is not allowed on user talk pages. Arguably, WP:ASPERSIONS also applies. If you think you have a case for sanction against O3000, you should take it to an appropriate noticeboard. Zero 15:35, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- So suddenly POLEMIC is something that is enforced on Misplaced Pages? I have nothing to sanction, that is a quote that I have on my page. I'm not attacking him, and it's not libel since it's a full quote not out of context. (And are we now going to to go other editor's pages and start enforcing polemic since I've been to many that violate it, but apparently it's selectively enforced. Also, what do you mean who is right? Did six million Jews not die in the Holocaust? That is why I put the quote on top, we can't let people think it's OK to say that not so many people died in the Holocaust.) Sir Joseph 15:37, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Are you saying it is not an attack to call someone a holocaust denier? And of course it's out of context. Context includes other relevant text. O3000 (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- It's not out of context at all, it's your full quote. And denying the numbers, which you did, when you said specifically, 75% is a form of Holocaust denial. Sir Joseph 15:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- From the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum on "Holocaust Denial and Distortion":
Common distortions include, for example, assertions that the figure of six million Jewish deaths is an exaggeration and that the diary of Anne Frank is a forgery.
-note, that you used almost the exact same words (with regards to the count). Sir Joseph 15:46, 16 August 2019 (UTC)- So, for the record, you are again repeating the accusation that I am a Holocaust denier because I was trying to make a point that I don't think the specific number is important to the label Holocaust or its evil, correct?
- So, for the record, you continue to insist that I am a Holocaust denier despite my multiple statements that the Holocaust did exist and was evil beyond all measure, correct?
- So, for the record, you posted this prominently at the top of your talk page despite the fact we have never before discussed this, correct?
- So, for the record, you refuse to remove this even after a warning from an admin, correct?
- So, for the record, you placed my name on the quote (out of context from the entire conversation) while we were in a content dispute unrelated to the Holocaust, correct?
- So, for the record, you did this without notifying me, correct? O3000 (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what your point is. I never said you didn't say the Holocaust never happened, you just are denying six million Jews were murdered, and you are OK with saying that it can be 75% of that number. As per the Wiki article, and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, that is indeed Holocaust Denial.
- The quote on my talk page is not out of context, it's a full statement of yours. It may be part of a paragraph of yours, but this is a distinct statement of yours.
- I don't think I have to remove it just because Zero asked me to because Polemic is not something this encyclopedia takes seriously. We have a user page that is over 1.5MB long full of polemic, we have other user pages that is chock full of polemic. I put your quote up because you warned me once how to behave in the IP area, so I felt it was very ironic that we have people with your views editing the encyclopedia. Sir Joseph 16:12, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, you have repeatedly falsely accused me of Holocaust denial and have refused to remove these attacks. I will take this elsewhere. O3000 (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- OK, and note that there is a distinction between scholars debating whether it's 5.65 or 5.7 or 6 million or people claiming that people "exaggerate" the deaths, as you state. Sir Joseph 16:27, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- I said: “may have very well been exaggerated by some”. Clearly I am stating that some people exaggerated, not that the official number is an exaggeration. The official count is 6 million. But, there have been claims of 7 million and more. So, what I said, and what you call Holocaust denial, is undeniably true. Indeed, this was my point. It was millions and monstrous. O3000 (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- You then say though at the end, "Does it make it OK if it was 75% as many? Just say “substantially fewer deaths” so that is not clear. In your opinion, how many Jews died in the Holocaust? 75% of six million, is 4.5 million, which is far less than the accepted range. If you want to repudiate those statements, you may do so now. Sir Joseph 16:54, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- I can remove all this real quickly if you resolve it, just tell me how many people died in the Holocaust. Sir Joseph 16:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- The official number from historians is around 6 million. I never said 75% of 6 million as you just suggested. I have never in my life argued against the number 6 million. I merely stated that some people have exaggerated the number. Some, as in the definition: "at least a small amount or number of people or things". How can anyone mistake that for the agreed upon number by historians? Of course some people exaggerate. Look, this was not a discussion of an article. It was a freewheeling UTP discussion about a possible essay about the fucking Nazi's that come into WP. My obvious point was that it was millions and that makes it monstrous, no matter what the exact number. And, it's stupid to exaggerate a number that is already monstrous. Since it was just a UTP discussion between a few anti-Nazi's about a prospective essay, I didn't think I'd have to dot every i as I knew no one in that discussion would think for a second that I was a Holocaust denier. O3000 (talk) 17:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- That is not how your quote reads. Read it again. You are implying that fewer than six million died in the Holocaust, it's obviously millions, it's still bad, even if it's just 75% of six million. Again, I'm just reading your words as their written. You may wish to clarify that then. Sir Joseph 17:21, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- The official number from historians is around 6 million. I never said 75% of 6 million as you just suggested. I have never in my life argued against the number 6 million. I merely stated that some people have exaggerated the number. Some, as in the definition: "at least a small amount or number of people or things". How can anyone mistake that for the agreed upon number by historians? Of course some people exaggerate. Look, this was not a discussion of an article. It was a freewheeling UTP discussion about a possible essay about the fucking Nazi's that come into WP. My obvious point was that it was millions and that makes it monstrous, no matter what the exact number. And, it's stupid to exaggerate a number that is already monstrous. Since it was just a UTP discussion between a few anti-Nazi's about a prospective essay, I didn't think I'd have to dot every i as I knew no one in that discussion would think for a second that I was a Holocaust denier. O3000 (talk) 17:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- I can remove all this real quickly if you resolve it, just tell me how many people died in the Holocaust. Sir Joseph 16:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- You then say though at the end, "Does it make it OK if it was 75% as many? Just say “substantially fewer deaths” so that is not clear. In your opinion, how many Jews died in the Holocaust? 75% of six million, is 4.5 million, which is far less than the accepted range. If you want to repudiate those statements, you may do so now. Sir Joseph 16:54, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- I said: “may have very well been exaggerated by some”. Clearly I am stating that some people exaggerated, not that the official number is an exaggeration. The official count is 6 million. But, there have been claims of 7 million and more. So, what I said, and what you call Holocaust denial, is undeniably true. Indeed, this was my point. It was millions and monstrous. O3000 (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- OK, and note that there is a distinction between scholars debating whether it's 5.65 or 5.7 or 6 million or people claiming that people "exaggerate" the deaths, as you state. Sir Joseph 16:27, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, you have repeatedly falsely accused me of Holocaust denial and have refused to remove these attacks. I will take this elsewhere. O3000 (talk) 16:17, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
- Are you saying it is not an attack to call someone a holocaust denier? And of course it's out of context. Context includes other relevant text. O3000 (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2019 (UTC)