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Father Stryokowski

Current text: "Wilcox has also criticized Berlet over an incident involving the Rev. Francis S. Stryokowski, a 76-year-old Catholic priest, who was forced to resign after Berlet identified him as having attended an anti-communist meeting at which a former Klan leader spoke. The Rev. Stryokowski maintained that he had not realized what kind of meeting it was. ."

Wilcox says a lot of things about me that are dubious.

Current text: "an anti-communist meeting at which a former Klan leader spoke."

Actually, while the meeting was indeed antiommunist, it was also run by a group denounced by the Catholic Archdiocese as antisemitic. Their slogan was "Communism is Jewish." Here is how one library describes their newsletter "photocopied newsletter of the Anti-Communist Confederation of the Polish Freedom Fighters in the U.S.A., mainly the product of the anti-Semitic and racist mind of Jozef Mlot-Mroz" .

Current text: "The Rev. Stryokowski maintained that he had not realized what kind of meeting it was."

Actually it is spelled Strykowski, and he attended a speech by Bob Miles at the home of Jozef Mlot-Mroz in Salem, MA. Miles is "Described as former KKK leader from Michigan (Jewish Advocate, Boston, 6-12 Nov. 1992) who spoke at a 1988 white supremecist meeting, also attended by Rev. Francis Strykowski, who was forced to resign as pastor of Boston's St. John the Baptist Parish, effective Feb 2, 1993 as a result of his attendence at the meeting" .

Miles was a former Klan leader, but at the time he was also one of the best know neofascists in the U.S., and a leading figure in the neonazi version of the Christian Identity religion

Strykowski had attended and participated in these meeting before, and been exposed in the local media; and the Catholic Archdiocese had already once accepted his claim that he did not know the group was antisemitic. Strykowski was warned to not attend again. I wrote about the Miles speech in a local weekly ("Inside a Fright-Wing Cell," Boston Phoenix, August 19, 1988), but the part about Strykowski was cut for space.

Years later, when a critic of mine made false claims about my attendance at the meeting and my sources of information, there was a public discussion of the 1988 meeting, and when it came out that Strykowski had attended, it again became a media issue, and the Catholic Archdiocese asked him to resign (his parish wa actually in Salem, MA) to avoid having to discipline him formally, which might have resulted in Strykowski losing the equivalent of a pension. I will provide cites for these matters on the PRA website, and then ask for a discussion of the Wilcox criticism. --Cberlet 17:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I will corect the spelling of the Rev.'s name, but as far as the rest, I don't think this article needs to go into that level of detail, and if we did we would need to be very careful not to overemphasize your POV. The situation of you being an editor here, while a positive one, is a potential source of concern and conflict on this article.

A similar circumstance has occured on Kevin B. MacDonald, wherein Prof. MacDonald has taken issue with various criticisms of his theories. It is important that a similar policy of interaction take place with your opinions being respected, but understood as neccesarilly biased. I hope you can understand that. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 18:06, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I do understand that. I have promised to only engage in discussion on this article. Please look at the text on the page, and then compare it to the article cited, which has more detail.." The text here has been sanitized in a biased way to obscure what really happened, which involved antisemitism, not just anticommunism. Here is what a really NPOV text would look like:

"Wilcox has also criticized Berlet over an incident involving the Rev. Francis S. Strykowski, a 76-year-old Catholic priest.." Strykowski was forced to resign by the Catholic Archdiocese after Berlet identified him as leading a prayer blessing a meeting of white supremacists where a leading national neonazi figure, Robert Miles, gave an antisemitic speech. The Rev. Strykowski maintained that he had not realized what kind of meeting it was, but the local media pointed out that Strykowski had been previously warned by the Archdiocese not to attend any more meetings of the group, since it was considered antisemitic."

I plan to post the published cites for my claims on the PRA website on Monday.--Cberlet 18:37, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Robert Miles isn;t a leading neo-nazi figure, unless your refering to this Robert Miles. ;) He certainly seems to be less famous than you, we have dozens of wiki articles on neo-nazi's great and small. Maybe you might like to write up an article on him, if he is of such a level of signifigance? Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 20:20, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Good idea. I am very sure that the late Robert Miles (of Michigan) was a leading white supremacist and antisemite who worked closely with Aryan Nations. He was convicted of conspiring to blow up school buses in Michigan to stop integration of the public schools. We can quibble over the term neonazi. But please tell me if there is some special way to create a page for a name that duplicates another in the Misplaced Pages collection? --Cberlet 22:17, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Three Catholics rob a bank...

Is the Three Catholics rob a bank simile relevant to Berlet specifically? Reading the article it sounds to me as if Wilcox is referring to others besides Berlet, namely commentators on the Oklahoma Bombing and the militias. -Willmcw 18:12, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It seems relevant, if barely. It illustrates the guilt by association fallacy which Berlet appears to make, at least in the accusations against him. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 18:19, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, but I'm going to reword the intro to the remark to make it clear that Wilcox is speaking of watchdog groups in general when making that criticism. -Willmcw 18:32, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I took out "watchdog" for being POV. Can you think of a better term to describe them? (I admit I could not) Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 18:42, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I used it because it is Wilcox's term: But Mr. Wilcox says what most watchdog groups have in common is a tendency to use what he calls "links and ties" to imply connections between individuals and groups. "It's kind of like three Catholics hold up a... -Willmcw 19:03, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sam, I don't think that "Mr. Wilcox says Political Research Associates and other "watchdog groups" have a tendency to use what he calls "links and ties" to imply connections between individuals and groups:" is a correct characterization of the quote. Wilcox does not mention PRA specifically in that context or regarding the Oklahoma bombings. He is quoted as saying "most watchdog groups", not "PRA and other watchdog groups." If it is a quote, it should be accurate. -Willmcw 20:03, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, I tried to clean it up a bit. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 20:01, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I moved the PRA over to make it a little clearer that the quotations don't refer specifically to it, but to "watchdog" groups in general. -Willmcw 20:26, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

...also criticized for accusing the ADL...

I followed the link in the footnote of this sentence:

Berlet was also criticized for accusing the Anti-Defamation League, in an op-ed piece for the New York Times in 1993, of down-playing the right-wing threat while focusing on left-wing groups.

The only person who seems to be criticizing Berlet for the ADL attack is the piece's author, William Norman Grigg. If so, we should characterize the speaker. The implication otherwise is that Berlet is being criticized by the "left", while Grigg is definitely on the "right" (I believe he is senior editor of the John Birch Society magazine, among other things). Whether the critic is Grigg or not, whomever it is should be identified. -Willmcw 19:53, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

well, this Chip Berlet seems to get it from al directions. Perhaps we can provide some better understanding (neutral of course) as to why he is so broadly contentious? Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 20:04, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Gee, do you think it's a mystery why the John Birch Society would criticize Berlet for criticizing the ADL for not going after right-wing groups? I think the real question would be why there is so much discord between Berlet/Brande/Wilcox/et al. But I doubt we'd be able to answer it. Folks in politics often seem to get into the biggest fights with those who seem to be the most closely allied. In any case, until someone discerns another critic of Berlet vis a vis the ADL, I've added JBS as the critic. -Willmcw 20:25, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Red links

I like the changes to this article, particularly the Criticism of the left and Criticism of Berlet separate sections, and the new Resumé section. I added another quote from Wilcox, which explains why there is discord between these researchers. That quote is also in The New American journal, which I added is published by the John Birch Society. And I found a link for the Daniel Brandt quote, which I've added, inline and in the References section. I saw someone had added a lot of red links. I've removed them because it made the text overwikified and hard to read; and it's also unlikely that most of the red-linked groups or people will ever have a Misplaced Pages entry; if they do, we can come back and wikify then. Hope the changes are okay. Slim 21:14, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

I take it you havn't seen my note on your talk page yet? I added, and replaced the red links. These links are very important, they let other wiki's know what articles need created. there is a even a "most wanted" listing for potential articles w the most red links. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 21:24, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi Sam, sorry I haven't seen my note. Misplaced Pages is very slow for me today, and I haven't seen able to get my Talk page to load yet. Please don't keep adding red links. They make the article hard to read. Very few, if any, of the phrases and groups you're linking will ever have an article. Also, over-wikifying (whether red or blue) is generally discouraged. If you look at the Featured Articles, you'll rarely see any red links or too many blue links in those.

I saw Chip's comments above about the Rev, and so I have added his rejoinder, as follows: "In response to Wilcox's comments about the Rev. Strykowski, Berlet said that Wilcox had mischaracterized PRA's activities. "Laird Wilcox is not an accurate or ethical reporter," Berlet told the Washington Times. "He simply can't tolerate people who are his competition in this field."

You may feel it's not appropriate to have a rejoinder from Chip in the "Criticism of Berlet" section, because otherwise we could have rejoinders of all the criticism, then rejoinders of the rejoinders . . . So feel free to take it out if you'd rather. Slim 21:36, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

I don't have any objection about the rejoinder, nor your other edits, but we deeply disagree about the red links. I feel that removal of red links of this sort, links which both have bearing on the article and use to the reader, and which I feel quite strongly do merit articles written, is in direct opposition to both the spirit, and the policy (unspoken or otherwise) of the project. If you saw something written somewhere which you felt encouraged such actions, please alert me to its location so that I can change it forthwith. Don't get me wrong, I perceive your positive intent, but I profoundly disagree with your reasoning on this matter. Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 21:58, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

FWIT, I agree with Sam. I guess it's another category of editors: redlinkers versus bluelinkers. Cheers, -Willmcw 23:22, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I'll hunt down some pages about red links. It may not be today however, as one of the LaRouche activists is busy reverting and Misplaced Pages is very slow for me. But as soon as I've found something, I'll put it here. There may be something in the Featured Article standards. Part of my objection is that these are very obscure organizations. If one of you wants to go and write the articles, then the links wouldn't be red anymore, which would be a solution, but my guess is you wouldn't want to because some of them, at least, are so obscure and may not exist anymore. Also, I wonder about the point of wikifying words like "photojournalist," because everyone knows what that is. Also, wikifying FBI twice in successive sentences is unnecessary. Anyway, I will look for pages about this and we can discuss further. Slim 23:35, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)

What's the critisism bit for?

Berlet is journalist. Journalists tend to critisize people It's their job. People critisized will defend themselves saying the critisism is unfair. That's obvious. Why is it interesting? I'm new to Wikki so maybe there is something I'm missing. Dejvid 22:08, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Criticism provides balance. Why even have an article at all, if its going to be onesided? Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 22:25, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That reads to me like you are saying that ballance requires that anything positiv be balance with something negativ. I suspect that's not what your mean but then what? But my real question was why are these details of impotant? A journalist critisizes a public figure. Public figure answers back. Both one and the other are behaving exactly as one might expect.Dejvid 23:45, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dejvid, this article was developed after a protracted discussion about how it could be presented in a fair way. The previous version was very biased against Chip Berlet, because it was written by some of the people he has criticized during his career as a journalist. For that reason, it was rewritten to make it more neutral. However, that doesn't mean that all criticism can be deleted. Misplaced Pages policy is NPOV, which means a number of different points of view should be represented: not all (e.g. very minority views need not be mentioned), but all majority and significant minority views have a place. See Misplaced Pages:NPOV. Best, Slim 23:52, Jan 8, 2005 (UTC)