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Proposal to allow edits during mediation

Should edit be allowed during the mediation process? The mediation process was started on or before August 17th (based on the edit history for /Mediation on this page) and the edit history since then shows various efforts to create a stable version of the article until mediation was resolved.

The argument for not allowing this is the difficulty it creates in resolving an ongoing dispute related to the article and this argument has some weight--other mediators have walked away from mediating this article, and making more work for the mediator may increase the difficulty in resolving an already difficult mediation.

My argument, which is also discussed below, is that we should not effectively freeze edits to an article due to a content dispute between two editors. Pages should only be frozen during mediation (if at all) for a limited period using a protected tag and a deadline set which is tied to specific goals that the disputing editors must achieve or see their case closed, to not waste the time of editors who want to fix the article and aren't aware of the 'informal freeze' on edits (since there is no policy stating that they cannot edit). Changes coinciding with mediation can be integrated into the article if they are still relevant to the current version or dropped if consensus has build against them through the normal editing process.

Allowing edits should have the effect of getting more outside input into the article since most editors don't want to wade through a long mediation history to make contributions and this may also resolve some or all of the disputes that are being mediated. Antonrojo 14:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Allow edits. Mediation is one of several dispute resolution processes and peer review should get its chance. Antonrojo 14:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo, I have no doubt that you mean well and you want this article, and WP in general, to become as well sourced, informative and objective as they can be. The situation here is that there is a fairly intense conflict, that has been going on since the article was created. The conflict resulted in prologed edit warring that has driven at least two editors to leave WP. The solution that was agreed upon is to stop the edit warring and try mediation. The concept of mediation was that instead of making multiple conflicting edits and reversions per day or even per hour, we would try to agree in the Talk page (or subpage) on a mutually acceptable version, and only then include the change in the article. This was and is the premise for mediation. If we start editing the article directly again, it will again become a free-for-all, a major time and energy drain for all involved, and a sore spot for WP as a whole. I think the bottom line is simple: either we mediate and agree on changes in a civil discussion on the Talk page before they are entered in the article, or we resort to the old free-for-all. I thought that decision was already made, but obviously we can revisit it at any time. Crum375 15:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by 'quiet mediation'. If edit aren't allowed on the article at all it should be protected and if only edits of a specific type are allowed, this should be indicated by adding the mediation template to Talk, as well as in the article if an appropriate template exists since editors don't always read Talk when editing, to avoid wasting editors time. Note that this template states only that substantial edits should be avoided until editors have read the applicable talk page discussions, in other words that editors don't need to get involved in the mediation process to make changes. Antonrojo 15:40, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I am no expert on templates, if there is something that would be appropriate, then I would have no objection to it. I don't see however, how any editor could just start editing a contentious article that is undergoing mediation without instantly provoking mayhem. Yes, if you change a typo I can see it being 'safe', but I doubt there are many typos left. Anything else would step on some delicate issue that is under mediation and immediately disrupt the mediation process. I think the mediation is not between some specific parties with specific view points - it is intended for any or all editors interested in this article. If you would like to help, by all means join the mediation and feel free to voice your opinion on any issue (or raise new issues). But if someone just makes arbitrary changes to the article at this time, it will be disruptive and will nullify the effect of the mediation process, IMO. Crum375 15:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Edits during mediation

See: /Mediation

I think it only stands to reason to refrain from editing the article during mediation. Otherwise it would be a major waste of time to spend days and weeks debating issues that are no longer in the current article. In addition, if anyone starts editing, the parties to the mediation will edit also, while mediation is ongoing, which will create a major disruption. bottom line: please leave the article as it is for now, until mediation is completed. Thanks, Crum375 00:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that it's thoughtful not to edit an article that's being mediated, an admin did see fit to unprotect the article, which means that editing it is sanctioned. I don't think it makes sense to start edit warring about whether editing during mediation is okay. If the changes made conflict with the outcomes of mediation, they can be, in whole or in part, reverted -- that's not a problem. - Che Nuevara 01:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. I think that during mediation we should have a stationary target. Otherwise the mediation process becomes a meaningless exercise. In addition, the article was protected because of edit conflicts that occurred due to the issues that required mediation. Those issues are not resolved. If we were to start editing the article, it would end up in an edit conflict within a day or 2. I think it makes no sense to invite this unnecessary disruption at this time. Crum375 01:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

My two cents is that I have seen outside edits of a contentious article result in a version that passed consensus (Kaiser Permanente, maybe six months ago). Often long edit debates get caught up in a wealth of details and the interested parties have a difficult time moving forward without debating even small changes in detail. Shifting targets are the nature of the wiki philosophy, even if a more traditional editing approach, such as 'versioning' would be easier to manage.

So for what it's worth, I'll add an edit comment to the effect of 'first edits since mediation was begin, roll back to this point if edits made disagree with the consensus'. If this sets off another edit war, or violates policy, or a consensus builds against doing so, I think a rollback to that point would be called for as well. Antonrojo 04:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There are several reasons why I disagree with your approach:

1. Other editors may soon join you, and spend a lot of effort on a version that is 'precarious' in that we are mediating an older one
2. The mediation itself might get affected by the 'current' version, which will be a moving target as people are modifying it on a daily or hourly basis
3. The parties to the mediation, not wanting to be outdone, will start editing the 'current' version themselves, soon culminating in an edit war
4. Other contributors, who unlike you may not be aware of the situation with the potential rollback hanging over the article, will invest effort in good faith and edit, with their work potentially disappearing when we revert to the pre-mediation version

I can probably think up of some more reasons, but for me this is enough to be convinced that a changing version during a mediation in which the version is being debated is unproductive and disruptive. OTOH, I can see doing something else, that we have done before: you can start a test version, that will be in a temporary subpage of the pre-mediation version. In that version you can make all your proposed edits. As long as there is nothing outrageous in it (WP liability extends to subpages too) I personally see no problem with it. Crum375 13:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo, I have restored the mediation version and moved your version to Talk:Yoshiaki Omura/Test. Please feel free to present your proposed changes in that version, while keeping this one stable for mediation purposes. I hope this is acceptable to you. Thanks, Crum375 14:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

And Antonrojo, as Che noted elsewhere, please feel free also to join in the mediation discussion. As background, be advised that I personally joined this article while trying to informally mediate it, and got stuck here ever since. Crum375 14:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

While I understand your objection, Crum, that simply isn't how Misplaced Pages works. We don't own this article just because we're discussing it extensively, and nothing we can do will supercede the wiki process. Editing an article which is under mediation is not inherently bad faith. "Moving targets" are the way of the wiki. If the mediated parties start edit warring "not wanting to be outdone", then that's bad faith action on their part and action can be taken accordingly. Any post-mediation version can easily incorporate appropriate material written during mediation -- that's not a problem at all. I highly recommend you not start telling other editors not to edit an article -- it is a slippery slope that you would be wise to avoid. - Che Nuevara 17:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that no one owns an article, individually or collectively - that is not an issue here. The issue is one of practicality and temporary stability. The issues I raised all had to do with practicality and stability - how do we mediate a moving target, how do we prevent an edit war during mediation. I think the current solution is logical - Antonrojo (and possibly other neutral parties, not involved in the mediation or with BDORT/Omura) can continue to edit the test version while we focus on the stationary target version during mediation. I am open to other ideas to prevent conflict and to preserve stability during the mediation process. Crum375 18:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't how it is. The mediation does not ask for article "stability", but only for cooperation among the mediated. It is an informal, unofficial process. You can recommend, if you like, that people editing the article join the discussion, but asking people not to edit the article is unreasonable. We mediate a "moving target" by addressing the issues in the conflict -- mediation is about conflict, not about content, and once conflict is over those involved can back to normal editing. We avoid edit warring by not edit warring, period. It's simple, really. - Che Nuevara 20:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Che, I understand the theory very well, and I appreciate all your efforts thus far. I would be extremely happy if we can continue to mediate the article in a civil and orderly fashion. Let's just keep going and see where we get. Do you have a suggestion of how to proceed from here? I guess we are still waiting for Richard to chime in on the Mediation page? Crum375 20:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well obviously mediating one person is rather easy, so there isn't a lot we can do until we hear from Richard about this source. But I'll discuss that on the med page. - Che Nuevara 20:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I asked a few moderators to post feedback on this page since there are good arguments on both sides and because there doesn't seem to be any specific policy that is relevant. Antonrojo 22:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been asked to comment on this, and it seems to me that edits shouldn't be made that relate to the conflict that has gone to mediation. If you end up with an edit war then by definition you're not mediating - and any edit war has to be laid at the door of the person who made the first disputed edit, not the person that reverted or altered it. (It may take two to tango but someone still has to lead.) So the rule has to be - if your edit is going to be controversial, don't make it in articlespace for now. That may mean that most of the editing on the article might stop, but it still leaves room for stylistic edits and for outside editors to come in (if they come in on the same issues that are being mediated, they can be invited into the mediation), so full protection isn't necessary. It's often a good idea to work on a version of the article outside articlespace, like Crum created at Talk:Yoshiaki Omura/Test - that way, you can show exactly how you think the article should look when making your points, while the fact that the article isn't being shown to readers dampens the urgency that people feel when they're edit warring (the "must revert before someone reads the article and thinks this idiot's ramblings are true" syndrome.

I don't believe there's an actual policy on this, and it doesn't seem to me an issue that needs one. There's a common sense issue which is that you can't mediate while edit warring - and if you find simple discussion insufficient, then use a 'sandbox' version of the page, while allowing business as usual to continue on the main article itself, until you've settled on a version that's acceptable to all. I might suggest paring down the sandbox to the paragraphs that are under dispute, otherwise you're more likely to get conflicts with outside/minor edits to the article.

As I was asked to comment on what seemed to be general principle, I haven't looked into the dispute here in any great detail. If anyone thinks my reasoning doesn't work with this particular article then I'd be happy to look into it in more closely. --Sam Blanning 23:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I was also asked to comment and am in agreement with Sam Blanning. To summarize, its okay to edit, but not to edit war. However, there's already policies against that. It is generally a bad idea and highly discouraged to edit in regards to the disputed text, since that could easily lead to the aforementioned edit war (See meta:The Wrong Version for a somewhat related and slightly sarcastic essay on this.) Do be careful before implementing Sam's idea of a sandbox though. While this can and does work, the merging afterwards is often messy, error prone, and may even require admin intervention (for merging histories, if required). In my opinion, it's not worth the trouble. I would just recommend waiting until the dispute is resolved before making disputed or controversial edits. Good luck! -- ShinmaWa 02:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

While I understand what the two of you are saying, we're talking about someone who was not involved in the mediation. He came along and edited the article, and someone involved in the mediation saying that it wasn't right to edit an article that was being mediated.

If someone not involved in a mediation edits an article, it really ought to have no bearing whatsoever on that mediation. If they begin edit warring, that's another question altogether, but mediation is entirely informal and entirely voluntary. Antonrojo never agreed to mediation, he is not bound to or restricted by it. To say that he is would be illogical, and it would be an affront to everything that is the mediation process. It may be nice and thoughtful of him not to edit, but good faith edits are always welcome. He's not edit warring, he never was, and because he wasn't involved in the dispute, he's not likely to start.

I'm sorry, but the day we start telling people not to edit based on a process that they're not involved in (excepting, of course, when policy dictates it, because that's another matter entirely) is the day we become ArbCom. And the day MedCab becomes ArbCom is the day MedCab should be dissolved once and for all. - Che Nuevara 02:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like we are all in agreement then as both of us said that, in our respective opinions, it's okay for anyone, including those in mediation, to edit the article. Neither one of us said people can't or even shouldn't edit the article. We both, however, encouraged those in mediation to refrain of editting the specific text in dispute to avoid an edit war -- which, given your additional context on the basis of the inquiry, sounds like it's not even applicable to this discussion at all. I do apologize, though, for not fully understanding the situation before commenting. I hope this clarification helps unmuddy the waters a bit :) -- ShinmaWa 03:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that those involved in mediation should refrain from making potentially controversial edits without the consensus of the mediation -- that goes right down to good-faith willingness to participate. I don't fault you (or anyone else) for being unclear on the circumstances of this mediation -- they are many and complicated, and it took me a while myself to figure out what was going on here. Your opinion is naturally welcome and appreciated, and I'm sorry if I came on a little strong in my response. Happy wiki'ing! - Che Nuevara 05:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

My main concern with the 'no significant edits during mediation' approach is that mediation is an open-ended process without a specified time limit. From the few cases I'm familiar with, at least one of the parties involved is a POV warrior and the result of this policy is that editors with a more neutral view of the article are likely to move on to articles where their efforts are more appreciated rather than enduring barriers to editing put in their way by formal edit processes or stubborn editors who effectively freeze changes that don't agree with their POV. Asking outside editors to fork an alternate version of an article is one of these barriers. Antonrojo 03:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, Antonrojo. As you are not a part of the mediation and I assume that the edits you wish to make have absolutely nothing to do with the dispute, I can see absolutely no reason at all why you can't make your edits. Enjoy and happy editting! -- ShinmaWa 21:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

May I ask on what you base that assumption? Crum375 22:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

--- Note: below is a copy of the exchange I had with Shinmawa on his Talk page ---Crum375 13:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC) ---

Shinmawa, may I ask why you assume that Antonrojo's edits "have nothing to do with the mediation"? Crum375 22:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm just going to bow out of this discussion for now. I really don't have the context I need to understand the issue, and I'm afraid I'm just making things worse. -- ShinmaWa 22:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the situation is now such a mess, with the current version up flying back out of nowhere with hours of discussion effectively ignored, that I dont know how to proceed; if I edit the article as has been done by others just recently there will be an edit war in a few hours; refraining from editing - which means effectively saying that some people will edit while I will not - also does not make any (WP) sense. Anyone can suggest what to do? Che, re the affidavits, I am working on another source. But how can we proceed now?!

OK, I have, like others have done, reverted to a version that I consider reasonable as a starting point, after a number of changes have been made to it, including all the regular WP policies/guidelines etc and what has been discussed (and agreed) in mediation(s) so far.Richardmalter 13:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I am sure you realize that edit warring is not a reasonable way for us to spend our time and energy. You asked for and agreed to mediation, please let the process continue to its resolution. Thanks, Crum375 13:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I still fail to see how this is a hindrance to our mediation efforts. We can continue to discuss the issues in the article even if the article is edited. So, are we discussing, or not? Richard, if you're still working on that affidvait issue, why don't we move on to a new issue in mediation and come back to this one? - Che Nuevara 16:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I note that you insist even in the interim on a version that you like, despite that it contains many points that you have agreed are WP unacceptable in Mediation so far. Why should your predilection remain during mediation rather than anyone elses? There are many versions of this entry. It just so happened that the total edit block was put on version-arbitrarily after you reverted to this, your preferred version, a while ago. This does not make the version you like any better than any other version, and since you et al have agreed that it contains many WP unacceptables, it is in fact considerably worse in WP terms than the version I have just reverted. So I do not accept this version remain there if the article is open again for editing. I would, in the interim, agree to the version that was reached at the end of the last round of mediation mediated by Andy, would you agree to that? Che, yes I am working on another source for the affidavits, which I think will arrive shortly. But yes, please lets continue to discuss, thanks for your continued help, which I continue to appreciate very much. I suggest the Shinnick citation next, OK? If so, lets resume on the Mediation page. Thanks.Richardmalter 13:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Richard, the version that was there during start of mediation is the one that should stay, unless we all agree to a change. Otherwise, IMO (and apprarenly I am not alone in that opinion) the mediation process will become disrupted. Let's focus on the mediation and try to move forward. Crum375 13:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, unless you intend to dismiss mediation, which I ask that you declare now in good faith, as you have previously reverted mediated agreements that you were fully participant in, the only version that I agree that remains up in the interim, in this regard, is the one that we had reached at the end of the mediation effort by Andy as mediator, that you were voluntarily fully participant in and that you signed that you would respect. You state things like "should stay", but this lacks validity in the light of mediation that you were party to. Either we respect mediation or we have an edit war. Do you or do you not respect the mediated decisions that you were fully party to or do you not? I do not ask rhetorically. I guess if you answer anything other than a binary "yes", then the best thing to do is freeze the entry again; and I will hope that the freeze-dice will land on this version not the one you like. Richardmalter 05:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I think that trying to agree on a version to work from would rather undo the need for any mediation in the first place, so I won't say "hey guys let's agree on a version and go from there". And I won't come out in favor of a particular version, because doing so would undeniably counter my impartiality as a mediator. I will say this: opinion on a topic = bias. So if anyone says that they don't have a bias on a subject which they know something about, they're just being unreasonable. Bias does not mean you can't edit an article neutrally, but it does mean you can't edit objectively. If you'd like me to come out and lay my biases on the table, I'd be happy to do so, but I think that one person recognizing his/her own biases is enough. I think that, if we're going to get anything done, we need to get back to discussing the real issues, not which version is up when. There is nothing to be gained through another edit war, although if you insist on edit warring again, there's nothing I can do to stop you. It's your choice. Do we discuss the issues that are laid out on the /Mediation page, or not? You need not answer that question -- if you want to discuss, let's just go back there and discuss, eh? - Che Nuevara 07:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement that edit warring is not conducive for mediation. I think that the version we had at the start of mediation, before someone needlessly (IMO) unprotected the article, is the one that should stay up while we continue. Otherwise, the constant reversions will only be a distraction. As I mentioned several times, I don't think the current version is perfect. OTOH, tweaking it at this time, before we get the important issues settled, would be disruptive to the mediation process, IMO. Crum375 13:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe you misunderstand the purpose of page protection. There is absolutely no reason for a page to be protected for the duration of mediation, which would in fact be contrary to WP policy. Page protection during mediation serves only the purpose of stopping an on-going edit war and allowing those involved a little time to cool down; after that, the page is supposed to be unprotected. - Che Nuevara 20:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It's always possible I misunderstood it. It was done by Cowman109 to try to stabilize the article and calm the atmosphere while he was trying to mediate. Then he abruptly left us (like his predecessors), leaving the article protected. Let's just get on with mediation. Crum375 21:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, let's. Richard is working on the other source, so which should we discuss next? - Che Nuevara 22:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Whatever you two decide on, I guess. Crum375 22:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, just take the fact please, that for the reasons I give above, I dont agree that the version that you like remains all the time we have mediation. Many of these reasons you have explicitly agreed to in Mediation, so I did expect you would go along with. I hope it will be locked for editing - in a version other than the one Crum predilects. We should be clear, that the version Crum likes has no agreed (WP) basis to it - it is merely one that Crum likes, any suggestion of (WP) validity to it should be understood as merely POV. Re what to discuss next, please see the Shinnick citation on the mediation page. Thanks.Richardmalter 23:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I have restored the version protected by Cowman109. I understand Richard doesn't like it, and I have some issues with it also. But this is the one that was protected so let's leave it and get on with mediation. Crum375 23:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, this is getting old. One of you step up and put an end to this by grinning and bearing the version that you don't like. I think that would demonstrate an awful lot of good faith. - Che Nuevara 04:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I think you know about the wrong version; it is incorrect to claim or imply even indirectly that because it was this version that was up when the page was locked that it is somehow sanctioned. Other than your like, there is no WP preference (and many against) this version. Che, sorry, I will revert now. I hope this demonstrates the need for mediation, and why we need you!Richardmalter 07:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, will you or will you not agree to the version that was reached at the end of the last round of mediation by Andy? as I have proposed. Bear in mind that your agreement to changes that led to it are fully documented, and I would take it personally as a show or trust and commitment to the mediation process. ?Richardmalter 07:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Richard, the version that our last mediator Cowman109 protected is the last stable version before the recent edit war erupted. You did complain to him about it at the time, and I myself was not totally happy with it, but it was the one he picked and froze, and this is the one that was there when Che, our present mediator, arrived. Going back to any other version would require us to argue about numerous issues - I doubt that we can reach quick consensus. If we are to argue, let's focus our energy on the mediation process. Crum375 12:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum, as you know, that is not the whole story at all. Your words like 'stable version' sound possibly impressive, but are in fact meaningless due to the agreements you made and broke, and the arbitrary version that you reverted to at a point in time when you decided to. I will revert it back once you are asleep again.Richardmalter 12:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I did not break any agreement. If your point is that during the prolonged mediation process I agreed in principle to certain points, you are correct. But agreeing to specific points does not mean I agree to or endorse any specific version, and in fact I have yet to see a version I totally agree with. One reason there is no such version is that I myself have mostly refrained from directly editing this article, preferring instead to accept a 'best version' at any given time. Anyway, let's try to see if we can in fact get to any more agreements in principle by mediation. Crum375 12:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Crum: To say that the version Cowman protected is "the one he picked" is misleading -- an admin is in fact expected not to "chose" a version but rather to protect whatever version (barring blatant vandalism) is up when he decides to protect the page. That's what Cowman did. The truth is there was no "stable" version and that one just got picked out of a hat. Richard: The fact that there is now an ongoing edit war over which version should be mediated shows to me not only a desperate need for mediation, but also a complete unwillingness to, in good faith, more forward with the mediation process. Seriously, guys, are we going to work on this article or not? Edit warring is a waste of everyone's time. - Che Nuevara 17:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

"Simplification"

Right now this article is very much too long and complicated and can stand much improvement. Whiffle will help! Whiffle 03:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC) It will be a much better article then, clearer and simpler and easier to understand and everyone should be happy with it. Please help, too.! Whiffle 03:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn't make it clearer, because it does not accurately describe the procedure. "Dumbing down" of an article necessarily makes it less accurate. Although this version isn't perfect, taking out information and replacing it with opinion and inaccurate "simplification" makes articles inaccurate and thereby not suitable to WP. - Che Nuevara 03:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

So you disagree with my editorial judgement. Then work to make it better. There's no reason to think your idea is any better than anyone elses. I'm not dumbing anything down and to say that is insulting. Don't insult me because you disagree with me. Whiffle 04:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you take the term "dumbing down" as offensive, but it's not meant that way and it's not what it means. No disrespect intended, so let me explain: "Dumbing down" means "making things simpler at the expense of accuracy". You have indeed clearly done that. For instance, how are

The form of the test is the evaluation of opposing muscle strength consisting of the diagnostician's employing thumb and forefinger of each hand, formed in the shape of an O, to attempt to force apart an O shape formed by thumb and forefinger of the person being evaluated, as that person holds a slide of organ tissue, a sample of medication, potential allergen, etc, in their free hand, or is otherwise 'probed' at an appropriate acupuncture point by the use of a metal rod or laser pointer. The diagnostician then uses his or her perception of the strength required to force apart the patient's 'O-Ring' of thumb and forefinger to assess the matter being evaluated

and

n the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test the doctor pulls people's fingers apart to see how strong they are before and after he is testing something. If they are stronger after it means the thing he was testing was good for them. If they are weaker it was bad for them. This is a very simple test. It doesn't take any equipment except the Doctor pulling the fingers apart and the patient, and it is very quick and easy and effective

equivalent? The answer is that they naturally are not. - Che Nuevara 04:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to insult someone by saying they're dumbing it down then stand up and stand behind your words. My edits speak for themselves. If you can improve it, improve it, stop insulting me then claiming you're not. That's the worst insult of all. Whiffle 04:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Nor is it my job to justify myself to please you. That isn't a discussion, and I'm not your student. Are we clear on this? Whiffle 04:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where that came from. I wouldn't even dream of thinking of desiring to say that you're my student, nor would I fancy that it's your job to please me. I said you have to edit according to WP policy and guidelines, that's all. - Che Nuevara 04:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, gee, if someone said to you you had "dumbed down" the article in simplifying it I suppose you'd see that as a compliment, right? Have the courage to say what you mean, not insult someone then take it back. Whiffle 04:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I explained what I meant by that term, which is the common usage as far as I'm aware, and I apologized for offending you even though I didn't mean to. I suppose that "dumbing down" should be considered no more or less offensive that "Keep It Simple, Stupid", don't you? - Che Nuevara 04:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL just read your helpful message on my page. You have an inclination to casual insult, haven't you? Is this your notion of WP:Civil. Curious interpretation of the concept. Perhaps I'm too simple-minded to follow so subtle an intellect. Whiffle 04:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

KISS is a mantra in many design, engineering, and other circles. It isn't regarded as an insult save by those inclined to excessive complexity, so far as I'm aware. It's an ancient attention-getter. Whiffle 04:48, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reversion of cite ref corrections

Whiffle, your edits are not helping anything, and you've completely undone all the work done on making all the references fit into the correct citation method. I was only trying to make the references look right, and forgot to address the undoing of your edits (which only made the article more POV) I apologize for forgetting to address that, but your edits are only making the article worse. You need to discuss the drastic changes you're making before doing them, especially on a controversial article like this one. ···日本穣 04:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I messed up some of the refs. The article is too long, too convuluted, and too incomprehensible, however much your efforts over time has convinced you otherwise. You need fresh eyes whether you know it or not. If you're uncomfortable with that, then you're uncomfortable with that. I have no reason to trust your judgement over my own. Is that hard to follow or simply hard to accept? Whiffle 04:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I've made perhaps 3-4 edits to this article, and they've all been minor outside of the references fixing (and you messed up all of the ref corrections, not just some of them). Perhaps you should do a little more research before you make comments such as this. Based on that, your own judgement comes into question. On top of that, you need to adjust your attitude if you're going to be working here on Misplaced Pages. Acting in a condescending manner toward others' opinions goes against the civility policy, and refusing to discuss anything before making sweeping changes to a controversial article goes against the etiquette policy. You need to be able to work well with others if you're going to be doing things here. If you can't abide by these policies, you'll likely cause more and more problems and eventually run into problems with the administrators or others. ···日本穣 05:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Joe, but it isn't all about you. It's about the Misplaced Pages Entry. It's a mess. Quick, let's all look up what different dictionaries say "mess" means, then discuss it for a few weeks before we have a Mediator assist us in the, uh, uhm...MESS !!! Whiffle 14:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC) Let's cut through the clutter and cut to the chase here, okay? Is this an entry or an excuse for a virtual circle jerk of people who are Look, I Are A Editor !!! wannabees? Fish, cut bait, or hang, bated, thrashing your wings pointlessly about. I'm not your mommy, and I don't want to spank you. I'm here to be right, not to be kind. Got the concept? Good !!! Whiffle 14:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Make Haste Slowly ?

Opinions differ, gentlemen and ladies. Try and keep up.

Night. Night. Whiffle 04:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Protected

The article is now protected. Please work out your differences here and in mediation. -Will Beback 18:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the protection. Please edit with consideration for all viewpoints. -Will Beback 07:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have applied everything so far discussed on mediation page.

1) all extensive very obvious POV and OR deleted. 2) disclaimer statments (which would be a precedent for WP as discussed by many Admins) deleted. 3) correct description inserted. 4) 'en passant' citations agreed in mediation deleted. 5) obvious attempts at labelling in See Also section deleted 6) selevtive quoting from NZ Tribunial addressed, key quote of tribunial differentiating earlier on re BDORT and Gorringe included.

If any one wants to improve, I ask them to do so with regard to previous decisions made that has included them, and past and previous comments/discussions on the Mediation pages. I suggest, if it is contentious, dont add it.Richardmalter 03:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Richard, nothing has been agreed to in the mediation process. Please refrain from editing the article while the mediation process is underway. Thanks, Crum375 03:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Crum, you must have a problem reading your own words. What was agreed about the refs to quakery etc that you participated in in the last round of mediation have a look at the archives, you will see discussion "closed and action taken as agreed" - you know this.Richardmalter 03:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Richard, as you know, nothing whatsoever has been decided. If you can see me misreading my own words somewhere, please provide a link to my words, so we can discuss them. Thanks, Crum375 03:44, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion closed and action taken as agreed. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Yoshiaki_Omura/MediationArchive_1

I guess it must be a memory problem, is the only solutionm in good faith i can attribute to you.Richardmalter 03:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes it must be a memory as well as a reading problem on my part. I can't for the life of me see or otherwise recall where I agreed to all the changes you just made in the article, including removing the NZ reference from the the lead, etc. Crum375 03:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

No, but you CAN see some of the changes that you agreed to, and that is the point you try to evade: you disregard all of them which is very disrespectful to me, other contributors/mediators/WP.Richardmalter 04:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Just above you declared nothing has been agreed to in the mediation process. Now you are corrected.Richardmalter 04:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The only changes I agreed to, were minor technicalities and included in other changes that you ignore. For example, regarding the Quackery reference, I agreed the specific linked page was wrong, but another link in the same site made the same point about quackery even stronger. You just removed the reference altogether instead of just fixing it. Hence you cannot just state that I 'agreed' to even that specific change. Can you point me to any of your changes that I actually agreed to? Crum375 04:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

You agreed to the minor technicality that the 'Quackwatch characterization of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test or 'Omura Test' en passant' usage was WP not OK. Usage of a citation, in itself and what for, are not minor. You may consult the wider WP community if you disagree.

You agreed to changes. Be respectful and keep to them please. Richardmalter 04:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The changes that I agreed to, were only agreed to by me, to the best of my knowledge (like the better Quackery reference mentioned above), not by the others. Hence, I contend that at this point no changes have been 'agreed to' in the mediation. 'Agreement' by definition is by everyone. Crum375 04:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Crum, your memory and reading are still lacking. See the archive again for documentation that there was a consensus decision. But at least you now admitt to agreed changes, which is something. So please dont revert mediated consensus decsions. Richardmalter 05:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected

I think it might be helpful if discussion preceded edit warring, and, hopefully, averted its necessity. Richard, would you care to make the case for your changes? TheStainlessSteelRat 04:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, AKA TSSR, see comments above re the protected version; summary: it is completely arbitrary. Your question just above applied equally to the version you reverted.

If you cannot see that, as one of many examples:

The fact that patent was granted to the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test has been cited as an example of 'high weirdness' by at least one firm of patent attorneys, and by another firm of patent attorneys as 'just plain offensive,' presenting an illustrative example . . .

is original research, then I think we have a major problem with your understanding of WP policies. If Crum cannot do the same, the same applies to him in addition to his memory and reverting of his decisions.Richardmalter 05:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying that when others disagree with you in discussion you are unwilling to accept that, and will rely upon your own interpretation and understanding to the exclusion of others, and act upon it by editing the entry accordingly. Is that understanding on my part correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 05:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked both user:Crum375 and user:Richardmalter for edit warring. Protection of the page clearly isn't being productive either, so it seems like blocking is the way to go so minor, uncontroversial edits can be made. Cowman109 05:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty, then, of reverting to the status quo ante so that, in time, perhaps, a more measured discussion may follow. TheStainlessSteelRat 06:21, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Re starting over - a proposal for the interim

Crum has tried to argue that this version is in some way stable. His own edit block refutes that fiction as do all edit wars in the past. He likes this version because of his undeclared yet self-revealed bias. He has also tried to present this version as endorsed by WP. It has been explained to him many times that he is incorrect on this point. He has forgotten that he agreed to some usages of certain citations (so did Arc and all his other handles) as I documented just above. He has tried to impose a 'dont edit' rule on this version (re his bais) during mediation - even though the mediator has told him this is not agreed.

If we want not to have an edit war, in the interim, since this version is so full of OR, POV, violations of consensus decisions, and especially since we have all agreed to start over completely, I think it is the only workable way and the fairest, to reduce the entry to a mere placeholder while we discuss what we do agree on, ie a snippet in the meantime as part of 'Starting Over'. I will anticipate non-agreement with this proposal obviously re POV and biases involved. But in the spirit and logic of starting over, not to mention all of our time and energy, I strongly suggest you all agree to this. Responses please ASAP?

OK, I have done this. Just plain information. Can we agree to this in the meantime? I also see this as a test of genuine good faith.Richardmalter 08:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, Richard, I would ask that you address the following question, posed above:

If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying that when others disagree with you in discussion you are unwilling to accept that, and will rely upon your own interpretation and understanding to the exclusion of others, and act upon it by editing the entry accordingly. Is that understanding on my part correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 05:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, no, as ususal you choose to interpret me into some kind of hyperbole. You have also never apologized in a simple straightforward manner for misrepresentations. Re the example I noted, the other editor also picked it out straightaway as OR. "A happened, then B happened, and therefore such and such is" OR. If you cannot see this, then I suggest you ask you reread carefully WP policies and ask others until your understanding is clear.

Secondly, although I am by no means certain as to whether this particular form of shortened entry is acceptable – there had been agreement that a minimal entry might be the best way to proceed, but there had been no discussion or sandboxing as to the form of such a hypothetical minimal entry – let alone consensus – I have amended your unilateratally vastly shortened entry to include the New Zealand Tribunal. You will note that in two separate AfD discussions doubts as to the validity of Omura's techniques in general and the findings of the New Zealand Tribunal in particular were found to be the sole bases of notability for Omura and/or BDORT sufficient to justify the existence of an entry for Omura on Misplaced Pages. It is, therefore, utterly unacceptable to alter the entry to any shortened form which simply excludes the sole agreed-upon basis for the entry's existence.

I would suggest, then, that we simply await the availability of others, and their thoughts, as you had previously agreed on numerous occasions, rather than unilaterally radically altering the entry to any one person's particular preferred form, however well and sincerely intended.TheStainlessSteelRat 17:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

No, Arc, your bias is that you originally wanted to tell the world that the BDORT is pseudoscience. In some way you want very much to be able to say this in some way. That is the long and short of all of it. Your AfD discussion is selective and what you write is not the whole story at all. "in the only credible bla bla" is just you wanting to scream out about pseudoscience, and is not on. Can you not in good faith actually agree to START OVER!!Richardmalter 19:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

If you remember when I quized Xolov about his summing up, he replied that what he had written was a "worst case scenario" for notability, NOT that he was given such a decision himself. Crum also noted that So I would say that if someone publicizes a symposium on a mainstream academic institution's official Web site, that would make BDORT, a featured sub-topic of the symposium (note the illustration), and most likely Omura, notable. You are selctively interpreting and quoting from the AfD discussions. Again I ask you, can you agree to not have your desire and genuine belief to label the BDORT pseudoscience spoken to the world? Can we just have an information snippet to save edit warring and everyone's time and energy??! Please?Richardmalter 19:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I take it, then, that, in response to my (above):

'If I understand you correctly, then, you are saying that when others disagree with you in discussion you are unwilling to accept that, and will rely upon your own interpretation and understanding to the exclusion of others, and act upon it by editing the entry accordingly. Is that understanding on my part correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 05:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Your answer is 'Yes.' Correct? TheStainlessSteelRat 19:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I will have to take it, then, regretfully, that your answer is indeed, 'Yes.' I've just reverted (#1 of this cycle) in response to your revert. I'm attempting, here, Richard, to accomodate your preference for the drastically shortened entry, at least pending the return of other editors. I cannot accept, however, as rational interpretation of the AfD discussion anything other than my statement above: That Omura/BDORT were found notable, in both discussions, only on the basis of their being dubious/pseudoscience/quackery, and, more pertinent here, that the NZ Tribunal which you seem to insist on 'disappearing' is by far the most reliable, reputable source on this matter. I am aware of your stated differences with that characterization of the NZ Tribunal. You have advanced, however, absolutely no reliable, verifiable evidence per Misplaced Pages criteria to contest the Tribunal, only your insistence that your interpretation is correct. That, regretfully, simply will not suffice. TheStainlessSteelRat 20:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

PS: I would also ask that you desist from personal attacks on the motives of others. It is a common observation that ad hominem attacks strongly suggest a lack of convincing argument or evidence for one's position, and such attacks, I'm afraid, likely weaken your case in the eyes of most neutral parties. Please, if you have the arguments, and the evidence, simply present them and let them speak for themselves. TheStainlessSteelRat 20:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, you are avoiding the questions put to you as usual. I will revert after you are asleep tonight.Richardmalter 23:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I deeply regret, then, Richard, your acknowledgement that you insist on having your own way rather than work with the community. TheStainlessSteelRat 00:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, re personal attacks, when you get your own house in order re this I will take you seriously, not before. Re your own way - yes applies to you exactly; in addition to not answering questions when you dont like their answers.

Just for the record, as Crum has said in the past, "everything needs to be citated".

In the only known credible independent evaluation and judgement of the BDORT or of any other of Omura’s variant and derivative treatments and techniques by a mainstream scientific or medical body,

does not have any citation. It is OR through and through and is not acceptable. If you cannot find citations for these words, they are out. In the only known credible is pure WP:OR/POV.

the Medical Practitioners Disciplinary Tribunal of New Zealand heard extensive expert testimony as to claims of scientific validity and efficacy of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test

is not correct, you know that they said earlier on that Gorringe's methods did not resemble Omura's, in those words. You are mis and selectively quoting re your POV. If you cannot find an exact quotation for heard extensive expert testimony as to claims of scientific validity and efficacy of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test then it is not allowable. To anticipate you and Crum, Crum has the answer to you both: "everything has to be citated".

etc.

If you want to cooperate in WP terms, and can let go of your desire to call things pseudoscience - which you have been told here repeatedly by me and others including Admins that unless you have a very good direct citation for you cannot,let me know. Richardmalter 11:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, AKA, TSSR AKA whiffle, you have also broken your agreement documented as did Crum regarding:

which has been characterized as pseudoscience,

You were part of a voluntary mediated consensus decision and you agreed as part of that consensus that this was not acceptable and should not be used. YOU ARE ASKED TO BE RESPECTFUL TO EVERYONE AND KEEP TO AGREEMENTS MADE. YOU SHOW HUGE DISRESPECT NOT TO DO THIS. Richardmalter 11:46, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for going along with that. If you are immovable at this stage even in the Starting Over for having the Tribunial info, then I will insist on the line from the report I just added. Regarding all the other OR/POV language, I will not agree to it of course. I have explained to Crum innumerable times re the 'scientific' etc - also that they were not experts in the right field - please see archives - which make the whole thing (to the regret of the anti-BDORT lobby) not much use (to WP) at all. Richardmalter 21:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo: I would note that I find your edit work on the entry to be, in my judgement, quite helpful, and quite promising.

Therefore, I regret the following, though I'd ask that, if you're willing, you continue to contribute to the process, as I, for one, would very much appreciate it, as, I'm sure, would others.

Richard: I regret that I find your shortened form of the entry unacceptable per my understanding of Misplaced Pages criteria, and would, respectfully, ask, therefore, that, as a demonstration of faith in the community and its processes as per extant consensus, you revert to the version of the entry as it existed prior to its most recent unlocking, prior to your radical surgery, so that we may return to the process of discussion and consensus building, as most recently so generously and patiently moderated by Che and further contributed to and overseen to varying degrees by other members of the Misplaced Pages community. TheStainlessSteelRat 02:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Arc, please explain exactly and in detail why - then we can discuss - which I definetely will. You have not given me any indication of what you think is WP:not OK; whereas you please note that I have discussed why have improved (not deleted) your edits. Please bear in mind re your comments as Crum has said, "EVERYTHING has to be citated" Thank you.Richardmalter 02:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

If you prefer to maintain the entry in a radically altered form of your making – with minor but helpful contribution on Antonrojo's part as to neutral point of view with respect to presentation – which was previously controverted as to its particulars on numerous occasions and which found no support in consensus rather than simply restore the entry to that form which it took prior to your personal and radical reshaping I am content to note that fact for the present and await other opinions. TheStainlessSteelRat 03:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo, hello, I have I think improved on your edits, as follows. Thanks for the info re better quoting of statements, reads much better. I put in the citation link - it is from the same source, just a different paragraph. Re: There are no known credible independent evaluations of the BDORT or of any other of Omura’s treatments and techniques by a mainstream scientific or medical body - well this has been hotly disputed for months, the way I see it is not actually contributing information to the article. It is contributing a POV and a bias (albeit in a subtle way prehaps). credible etc are all hotly disputed. For example no one in the Tribunial had the expertise at post doctorate level to be able to comment on the basis of the BDORT - which Omura et al explicitly document in many abstracts as an 'electromagnetic resonance phenomena'. ie they are not expert in the required field - electromagnetism - at all, etc. heard extensive testimony as to claims of scientific validity and efficacy of BDORT is not correct since they earlier on noticed the obvious fact that Gorringe was doing his own techniques, so they generically called them PMRT. I then took out since in the rewrite that is now covered. Richardmalter 06:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Richard, everyone on that panel was qualified to judge whether a technique had undergone proper scientific verification. It does not matter whether the technique is supposed to be based on the properties of electromagnetic resonance phenomena, quantum mechanics, cosmic rays, fish oil chemistry, psychology or whatever since knowing how it works is irrelevant to judging whether it works. Either its effectiveness has been assessed properly or it has not. In the judgement of the tribunal, the effectiveness of PMRT type techniques (including BDORT) have not been properly demonstrated in repeatable, well-designed, well-executed, peer-reviewed scientific research. --Spondoolicks 13:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, Spondoolicks: just as an electrician doesn't have to know electron field theory to assess a circuit board, a doctor does not have to be familiar with the methodology of a particular treatment to assess its results. - Che Nuevara 18:07, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The point is they did not actually assess the technique; they also did not comment on Omura et al's research and papers of the BDORT (not surprisningly because they recognized early on theat Gorringe was doing something different) - not even to dismiss them - ie they did not really comment on the BDORT at all. Further, they did not make any clinical evaluation; nothing they did can be described as 'scientific' - they did not even observe the BDORT in order to try to explain it (or refute it). They did not 'assess' the 'circuit board' because they did not even see a demonstration of the BDORT; so what you both write doesn't fit with what actually happened - need to be very clear about this. Giving an opinion is all they did. Actually, I agree with Spondoolicks who summed it up quite accurately: In the judgement of the tribunal, the effectiveness of PMRT type techniques (including BDORT) have not been properly demonstrated in repeatable, well-designed, well-executed, peer-reviewed scientific research is all you can actually say that the Tribunial commented. Shall we say this then in reference to this citation, this wording seems good. Next thing is I showed this entry snippet to a couple of people, and their unprompted reaction was that obviously including the Tribunial info and nothing more ot further about the BDORT obviously smacks of someone (or two or three) trying very hard to give their opinion about the BDORT with this entry. But if we have rough agreement on this citation, then can we go on to examining the next citation that needs our evaluation as editors (see Mediation page for this), thanks.Richardmalter 08:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Tribunal, this wording is, in my opinion, rather conservative, but since there seems to be some disagreement about just how identical the Tribunal considered Gorringe's method and Omura's methods, it may be the best possible compromise. It should be handled appropriately, however, in a way that indicates that yes, the Tribunal is qualified to talk about these sorts of things.

Re: bias, it's important to remember the undue weight segment of WP:NPOV. Citations intended to "balance" an article actually do more to unbalance it if they are present as carrying weight which they do not carry. Additionally, if the majority of qualified opinion come down against something, that should be reflected in the article. I was involved in a discussion about this over at Democratic Underground a while ago: if a useful source which carries real weight is found, then it should be used, but a not useful source should not be used just to "balance" the opposing opinion. - Che Nuevara 19:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Che, and others here, hello. I am putting the {{POV}} back on the entry as I see it (with the NZ Tribunial citation included) as still not neutral if no other (what I believe will turn out to be through discussion if they have not already) perfectly WP:OK citations completely relevant to this entry are not included. Che, I would welcome very much your continued mediation which I appreciate very much - what do you think, are you still willing to continue? To make myself clear, this snippet including the Tribunial citation is as I understand it a placeholder which has stopped the edit war temporarily which is great - but I dont think is the last word on what will happen here in the (near) future by any stretch. Thanks Richardmalter 05:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The NZ Tribunal citations currently aren't in the article. There's no material in the article that could possibly be disputed; it's in stub-land now. So let's work on disputing the material before it goes in; that way the tag is unnecessary. - Che Nuevara 06:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I'm sorry, I had understood from the reversions you had made to include the NZ Tribunial para that that was still in, in which case what I wrote made sense. If that has now gone by agreement in the meantime, then of course there is no POV dispute. Hope you can see why I moved as I did and the situation was confusing? And yes, lets work on the material prior, agree of course.Richardmalter 11:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted them back in after they were deleted without comment by an IP. They've been taken out again, so it would seem that some discussion on the topic is necessary. - Che Nuevara 17:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The anon IP removed the well-sourced NZT reference, and Richard removed a lot more well-sourced material. I suggest we continue to follow the mediation process prior to making changes in the article. Crum375 02:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Didn't we agree that we were starting over? Why was the article reverted to its previous full version? - Che Nuevara 05:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I have no recollection, nor can I find anywhere, an agreement to 'start over', let alone to delete massive amounts of well sourced and pertinent material. We did agree for someone neutral to build a new version in his sandbox, we are still waiting for that. We never agreed to just gut the article; leaving Omura without BDORT would violate the last AfD consensus, leaving BDORT without NZT would violate NPOV, etc. If I am wrong and we did agree to it somehow, please point me to that consensus. Thanks, Crum375 13:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

- Che Nuevara 20:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, would you mind giving me a diff? The section header you are linking to is a discussion thread we had about 'starting over'. The final concept there was for a new (to this article) editor to try to come up with a brand new version in his Sandbox that could possibly replace this one. I don't see (nor recall) any agreement we ever had to reduce the article to a POV stub, that does not conform to the consensus we had after the last AfD and that includes BDORT without the most relevant and reliable reference we have for it, the NZ Tribunal report. The stub without the NZT reference is simply misleading and represents no agreement or consensus whatsoever. Crum375 21:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It is clear that the previous versions did not conform to Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons, so I strongly support this starting over. I mean, at the end of each paragraph we had a sentence stating that none of Yoshiaki's works were proven by any official medical authority - while that may or may not be true, it is completely unnecessary to repeat these words so many times. Starting afresh is the best thing for any article with serious concerns. From here things can be built up again and individual facts can be properly referenced. Cowman109 01:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The so-called disclaimer statements were included near each new description of a new extraordinary claim, which has no scientifically or WP acceptable source. The inclusion of the disclaimer statements can be argued, and we have had some extensive discussions about them, but it does not mean that the entire article needs to be discarded. As far as starting from scratch, I am not totally against it, but the current stub version is totally POV - it includes only Omura's 'evidence' which is not WP-acceptable per WP:V, while it excludes the New Zealand Tribunal's document, which is the most reliable and verifiable source we have for BDORT. At this point, the article is simply an ad for a scientifically unproven procedure, which claims to diagnose and cure most diseases known to man, by the patient making an 'O' with his/her fingers. BTW, the previous version had undergone scrutiny by many people during the last AfD, and the consensus was to keep improving it, not to trash it and start from scratch. Crum375 01:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I chose that particular version because, if you read the entire section, you said "I am in general amenable to all ideas mentioned here" shortly after I said "It seems that no one objects to a complete rewrite of the article". - Che Nuevara 01:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

If you read my statement above, I am not deadset against any reasonable idea, including a total rewrite if that's the best we can do. But to start with a POV version, that includes items that are not acceptable per WP policy, and does not include the NZT, which is the best source we have for this procedure, is simply wrong. Crum375 01:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

(unindent) The version that I have reverted to contains no sources about the procedure, except to say that he invented it; that cannot possibly be POV. The information that the anonymous IP was adding was clearly POV and I have removed it. This is a bare-bones version: it says who Omura is, the foundations he founded, and that he invented BDORT. That is all verifiable and objective fact. It doesn't say much, but it doesn't say anything biased. It is not misrepresentative in any way; it's just lacking in thoroughness. If we start from this version, we can add things as we go. - Che Nuevara 01:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I was referring to the version just prior to your latest reversion. In your version, besides the fact that it's missing a lot of well sourced information that we previously had, it mentions 'BDORT' without mentioning the related New Zealand Tribunal's findings, that it is "irresponsible and unacceptable" to use it, and that the last person that used it was fined and stripped of his license. Leaving out this important and well sourced information is misleading by omission, hence POV. Crum375 01:44, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The current version links to alternative medicine. That contains a number of the criticisms, generally, which you wish to include here specifically. For a stub, that's plenty NPOV. - Che Nuevara 01:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The link to alternative medicine does not remove the onus to supply to the reader the most reliable and verifiable source that relates to the subject of BDORT. IMO it should be the primary focus of the article, as it is the best source. Crum375 01:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: My above comment was deleted by Richardmalter, I am hereby restoring it. Crum375 13:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I second Che's and Cowman's points. Crum, are you intent on another Edit War!! Your POV arguments find no consensus here. Many people are telling you the same thing - start over from a stub. Richardmalter 03:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC) Crum, by reverting the version you did, you are again breaking a mediated consensus decision that you were part of.Richardmalter 03:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Whatever is currently done with the article makes little difference. The issue is more of just not edit warring and discussing instead. If I find some time over the weekend I'll see if I can get a nice rewrite of the article going. It will probably not be as heavy on information on the bi-digital o-ring test as Misplaced Pages does not need an essay explaining how it is performed. Cowman109 04:14, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, Cowman, give it a shot. Clearly the situation here is (surprise) once again at an impasse. I'll operate as seems more or less sensible pending your effort. What do you put the odds at? ;) GenghizRat 07:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Query As to Removal of My Comment

May I ask, RM, why you simply removed this without comment? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GenghizRat (talk • contribs) 04:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Apologies - pure techincal error editing the page on my part.Richardmalter 23:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Reality Bites?

At present the entry exists in stub form, with the sole basis of its having survived requests for deletion having been removed, in a form I judge utterly unsatisfactory per both rational thought and Misplaced Pages criteria. I therefore withdraw my provisional acceptance of the entry's shortened form, which was agreed to temporarily, pending Gzkn's sandboxed version (which never happened), as noted above, by The Stainless Steel Rat. In this context the form of the entry prior extant seems to me the most acceptable. GenghizRat 02:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: This, as per time stamp, was made earlier, but was removed by RM without comment, prior to his comments and Cowman's subsequent comments. GenghizRat 04:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Enough is enough

Okay everyone, enough is enough. You're taking away my options here. Richard, removing other people's comments is not appropriate. Crum and TSSR, every non-involved party who has come along has agreed that the version you keep reverting to is irreparable and needs to be rewritten. It should be obvious that not misrepresenting information is a much higher priority than including it. Are we going to work on this article, or are we going to bicker? - Che Nuevara 05:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, as a quick response to your comment about "every non-involved party who has come along has agreed that the version you keep reverting to is irreparable and needs to be rewritten", I'd like to take issue with it: I think that statement is incorrect. We've had many eyes going over this version (or one very close to it) during the last AfD, and the consensus there was to improve it, not to start over. Also, AntonRojo, who would hopefully be 'non-involved' by your definition (?) has just attempted to improve it, and in fact the current version is his. Crum375 12:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, this will sound like a rebuke, I think, but please appreciate that I sincerely do not mean it as one: This swirling madness has exasperated and driven away any number of folk. It may well simply be that the attempt at mediation, however well intended, is not possible. Might it make more sense, if you're still so inclined, to simply participate, as seems to you appropriate or not, as an editor rather than mediator? If it is possible to get more eyes on the entry, I think that might be helpful as well, but I don't know that that's possible. There are simply sincerely held but radically opposed positions here. They are not capable of reconciliation in my judgement, and there is far too little broad community awareness or interest to stabilize the situation. I frankly don't see how mediation, however well intended or well executed, can possibly succeed here. It was worth a try, but it seems to lead to simply another form of impasse. For whatever it's worth, you have my respect for your efforts. It's the effort that matters. The situation has simply proven infinitely frustrating for all concerned, from all perspectives. Perhaps Cowman or someone else will find an alternate path, who knows? Not every problem has a solution. We all know this. We all understand this. This may, at least for the present, be a problem of such character. So, at least, it seems to one particpant. GenghizRat 08:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

TSSR aka GenghizRat: I would love to take part as an editor. However, there is little or no real editing going on here. There is plenty of edit warring, and little else. If mediation is futile, trying to edit constructively will certainly be counterproductive. I can't make you edit constructively, but there are forums that can.

Crum: It should be obvious that saying that Antonrojo is "uninvolved" and that "the current version is his" are contradictory. And I meant people who have come along since I got here; that is indeed true. Why are you so averse to starting over? And why do you consistently sidestep the issue with arguments ad hominem?

I'm not kidding, guys. If you're not willing to act in good faith all the time, then this will quickly fall out of my hands. And not for lack of trying on my part. - Che Nuevara 17:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Wild Track

(The Misplaced Pages entry for the term 'wild track,' incidentally, is substantially in error as any competent audio engineer would tell anyone in a moment, and, no, I don't intend to set it right.)

That said, a wild track of a different sort: Perhaps this is a false problem. In the RfD discussions I believe the record will clearly indicate the New Zealand Tribunal was accepted as a verificable, thoroughly reliable source per Misplaced Pages criteria. There is to my knowledge no record of any comparable verifiable, thoroughly reliable source per Misplaced Pages criteria as to Yoshiaki Omura and his researches other than the New Zealand Tribunal.

Perhaps, then, there is no basis per Misplaced Pages criteria for an independent entry for Yoshiaki Omura, but, rather, there ought be a minor entry for the case of Richard Gorringe, which achieved some notoriety, and apparently resulted in alteration of regulations regarding alternative medicine in Australia and New Zealand.

There is, of course, an entry for Richard Gorringe at present, which RM some time ago edited to suit his perception. Perhaps the Yoshiaki Omura entry might simply be eliminated, and appropriately neutered language with respect to an en passant reference to Yoshiaki Omura might be included in that entry.

Perhaps, in other words, other than in the context of the Richard Gorringe entry, the Yoshiaki Omura entry ought not exist.

I recognize that, given the effort made to date it might be difficult to seriously consider such a possibility, but might it not make perfectly good sense? GenghizRat 08:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I personally think that given enough exposure to the general community, this entry can easily pass muster. I think the current version, after its last AfD scrutiny, is not far from ideal. It may need some tweaking here and there, and we can always do that, but just the fact that one side with a clear conflict of interest refuses to accept well sourced information is no reason to give up. It is reason to carefully scrutinize everything, and I am all for it, but I would not just trash the whole article because someone doesn't like the well sourced facts. WP is all about presenting well sourced knowledge, and that should be our 'track'. Crum375 12:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by Richardmalter

Richard, I don't lightly make accusations of vandalism, but I believe that removing other editors' Talk page comments is considered clear vandalism (see 'Talk page vandalism' under WP:VAN). If you don't like someone's civil comment, unless it contains a personal attack, you can't just delete it, though you may certainly reply to it. Thanks, Crum375 13:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum needs some ice cream to cool off

Crum, take it easy, remember to assume good faith, it was an error. What's the WP idea of getting some ice cream.Richardmalter 22:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"unless mediation finds another consensus"

This troubles me:

Rvt to Rat/AntonRojo's last version - this is closest to post AfD - let's keep it unless Mediation finds another consensus

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith. - Che Nuevara 17:41, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I am still waiting for you to point me for a diff where we actually agreed via consensus to discard our existing post AfD version and replace it with a POV stub, or one that violates the last AfD's consensus agreement. We did agree to support a neutral (and new to the page) editor to try to come up with a new version in his Sandbox. We are still waiting for it to my knowledge. We never agreed to blindly accept whatever he came up with. I also noticed Cowman offering to try to come up with his own version over the weekend - that's also commendable, and I for one would be happy to see his version. We never agreed to, nor reached any consensus for, any POV version, short or long (and as I noted above, where Richardmalter deleted my response to you, the omission of a well sourced reference that reflects negatively on BDORT is certainly POV). If we need to build up a new version from scratch, either collectively or individually, that can be done in a Sandbox. Remember that the current version by AntonRojo (in a slightly older incarnation) had a relatively wide consensus during the last AfD process. I don't see any major problem with it; if anything needs to be fixed, that can be done in a civil and orderly fashion in the Talk page. If you feel that I have done something in bad faith, please point me to the specific diff, so I can address it. Thanks, Crum375 20:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, lack of content, contrary to popular opinion, is not a reason to delete an article; lack of potential content in. Slowly and carefully putting the content in does not violate the AfD consensus; if anything, it's the most responsible execution of that consensus.

In addition, your claims that the stub is POV -- and at that, more POV than the version you continually revert to -- are still unsubstantiated. Lack of information does not mean bias if the appropriate information is simply yet to be added. But material added in a way which does not reflect its sources is indeed a more serious breach of NPOV than temporarily leaving out information which is potentially controversial.

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith. Also, three votes for delete and four for keep does not sound like "wide consensus", and if I had been the closing admin I probably would have announced it "no consensus" or relisted until there was consensus. - Che Nuevara 21:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, let me reply one point at a time.

I firmly believe that withholding a negative well sourced reference to an item is a form of POV by omission, as it clearly sways the balance to the positive side. If we are building an article step by step, it should be NPOV at every step of the way.

I am still waiting for a diff that shows we had consensus, or that I agreed to replace the article with a POV stub. We did agree to let the neutral editor try to come up with a version in his Sandbox, and we are still waiting for that.

Regarding the last AfD, maybe you consider these votes as not sufficient for a 'wide consensus'. But this was exposed to the wide community, and no one else chimed in. In any case, there was a neutral admin (who did not participate in the AfD) who decided on the outcome, and it was to Keep, and not to delete or to stub the article. If you disagree with that conclusion, that's legitimate, and we can start debating it again at any time, but we also can't just ignore the process because we disagree with it or its conclusions.

Regarding my 'lack of good faith' because I 'insist of interpreting things to the letter': First, I think we are supposed to assume good faith, until it becomes very clear it's simply not there. Are you saying that in your opinion I am not operating in good faith? Do you think I have some ulterior motive or some conflict of interest? Are you absolutely convinced of it? If you are not convinced, then I ask that you please continue assuming good faith.

Finally, Che, regarding our mediation process: Do you want to continue as mediator? I personally still trust you, I am sure you have no ax to grind and are neutral in the matter, but some of your recent statements appear to take sides. I see no problem if you wish to just become a party to the discussion and possibly let someone else take over as mediator. What do you think?

Crum375 22:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, just because something passed an AfD does not make it a good article. The amount of objection to the article in AfD should be a clear indication that it needs work; just because it squeaked by doesn't mean it's good.

Which of my statements indicate I am taking sides? That I want to start over because a number of editors have said it would be appropriate, and I believe that we could get a better article out of it, is not evidence of a bias. Because I believe that waiting to add information in a hotly contested article so that we can make sure it is properly used is not tantamount to "withholding information" is not evidence of a bias. The fact that a process that could and would have worked which was agreed to should not have been reneged on just because it was going slowly is not evidence of bias. And the fact that I am flabbergasted and upset that there have now been multiple promises not to continue reverting, which have also been reneged on, is not evidence of bias. This last point, by the way, seems to be a pretty good indication of bad faith. I hope that I'm wrong, but assuming good faith is getting difficult.

Finally, I have no desire whatsoever to become "a party to the discussion" because I don't really care about Omura or BDORT one way or the other. I do have a desire to do my best to end the ridiculous circumstances which have surrounded this article for some time. I think that makes me a plenty neutral mediator. I also doubt you're going to find a mediator more patient than I have been.

I want to get back to actually writing this article. I want to get away from this silly bickering and reverting. Everyone who's on board with that, please let's do so. If not, let me know, so appropriate reaction can be taken. - Che 23:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I agree that you have been very patient, and I am not shopping for a new mediator. But I also feel very strongly that by supporting a version that IMO is a BDORT ad, that knowingly ignores the best sourced scientific reference we have for BDORT, you are not acting as a mediator but as a party with a definite viewpoint. As far as the AfD, I am not saying that just because the article passed the AfD it is automatically blessed forever and needs no improvements. On the contrary, the decision was to keep improving it, and that's we are doing here. The decision did not endorse deleting or stubbing it, and certainly did not endorse a POV version that omits the most important reference which to a large extent is the focus of the entire article. I don't think that what we have here is 'silly bickering', by any side. We clearly have Richardmalter who has a declared conflict of interest and is a single issue editor, who sells BDORT as part of his practice. We have the anon-IP that is also single issue and apparently part of the Omura/BODRT group. On the other side we have WP editors who may differ slightly in style and priorities, but I believe all are eager to see this article become another well sourced and neutrally presented WP article, with no ax to grind. I don't think any of us here are generic quack-busters or pseudo-science fighters - all one has to do is check our contrib history. So it boils down to a simple conflict between the fervent and zealous BODRT advocates, whose livelihood depends on a BODRT-friendly article, that omits the clearly negative New Zealand Tribunal's report, vs. the other editors who only want a neutral well sourced presentation. Can this conflict be resolved by mediation? I am beginning to doubt it. I think voluntary 'mediation' when one side has a financial stake in the outcome, and the others are volunteers who want to see well-sourced neutrality, may be impossible. I wonder if we have a precendent on WP for such a situation being resolved by mediation alone. Crum375 23:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I think you're misunderstanding my statements about the "neutrality". I'm not arguing that the version without the Tribunal citation should be the version of the article we "accept" as the long-term article. What I'm saying is that it's a good starting place. I'm not supporting the article, I'm supporting the process which is being impeded by revert warring. As far as I'm aware the Tribunal citation is the most significant (particularly given the previous AfD), so I think we should settle the discussion on it post haste. However, continually reverting back and forth will not solve any problems.

Crum, it seems to me that your primary objection to the stub is the lack of the Tribunal citation. Richard, you disagree with the current wording of the Tribunal citation. The result of the AfD was in fact that the controversy is what makes Omura notable. Crum, I can promise you on anything you like that have I have no stake or interest in Omura or BDORT whatsoever. I'm not even on a first-name basis with any doctors, E&M experts, or anyone who knows anything about this sort of thing, and my area of expertise is Modern Central European cultural history. I freely admit that I don't have the background or knowledge to make any sort of judgment on this issue. I assure you that my intentions here are only forward motion, which this most recent whirlwind has once again brought to a halt.

Would it be satisfactory to both of you if I would redact the short version of the article which includes the Tribunal citation to what I see as a both neutral and informative version so that we can move on with this? - Che Nuevara 00:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

(outdent) Che, if you read my comment carefully, I assume no real bias for anyone except Richardmalter and the anon-IP. That of course means that I fully realize that like all of us you have no ax to grind, and all you want, like all of us, is to get to a well-sourced NPOV article ASAP so we can move on something else. But you have not addressed my general point about the likelihood for success of this mediation process. Given that we have conflict of interest single-issue (COI-SI) editors (Richardmalter and the anon-IP) vs. a bunch of well-meaning volunteers (myself included), can the voluntary mediation process ever work? Take the simple suggestion you have about trying to reach a 'short' NPOV version. You agree that NZT is needed, but if you were somehow able to convince the COI-SI bunch that they must swallow it, they would then fight tooth-and-nail over every word. Remember that to them, any negative appearance to the BDORT article means potential loss of income, whereas to the rest of us it's just a bunch of ideals, and the time we spend here can also be spent elsewhere, either on WP or RL. So bottom line is that I think we need to take a step back and think whether this process has a chance to succeed in converging to a stable version. A WP precedent would be helpful, where mediation alone has settled a conflict with a zealous COI-SI group with a financial interest in the outcome. Crum375 01:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you would like me to do about it. Having a conflict of interest is not actually a breach of policy; it's just a bad idea. If you're suggesting arbitration, that still won't solve the content dispute, I think. I really do believe that, if we start from a stub, we can slowly but surely build the article up from the ground. That's my honest belief. - Che Nuevara 01:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying that WP:COI is automatically in breach of policy, although the guideline sheds some light on the situation. Arbitration does not decide content and I am not suggesting going there at this point. I think you are assuming there is some minimal 'stub' that would meet the basic WP requirements except perhaps it won't be as detailed, and will be acceptable to the COI-SI as well as the others. I tend to doubt it very much. By using simple logic, it would require as a minimum BDORT (Omura alone would violate consensus in both AfD1 and 2 that only the combination of Omura and BDORT justifies WP inclusion). By having BDORT, we must have NZT, as that is the primary well sourced reference to it. Then, as I noted above, you'll fight an uphill battle getting the COI-SI group to accept the citation's wording. At this point, I just don't see it. I am trying to be realistic and save everyone's time. What I suggest at this time is to collect opinions and ideas from across WP as to the best way to handle this situation of fervent zealous financially motivated COI-SI group vs. a bunch of well meaning WP volunteers. A precedent would be helpful (all the ones I know are via ArbCom, but there may be others). Crum375 01:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you are assuming there is some minimal 'stub' that would meet the basic WP requirements except perhaps it won't be as detailed, and will be acceptable to the COI-SI as well as the others.

No, that's not what I'm assuming. What I'm saying is that we, right now, have a stub which (by virtue of being a stub) isn't very good, but it's at least a start. Gzkn and Cowman both recommended a complete rewrite. If you are committed to the consensus of the community, as you say, don't you think it makes sense to listen to the two least involved editors who came along? The stub is not a good article, of course, because it's a stub, but we can work together to make it one. - Che Nuevara 02:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, the current stub version is POV and is simply unacceptable. You yourself tried to revert the anon-IP and were reverted back by him. This is clearly not an acceptable situation. There is no consensus that I am aware of that says this POV version is acceptable. The only consensus that did exist, formally at the end of AfD-2 was to keep the full version, and to keep improving it further. That was and is the will of the community as it was last expressed. Crum375 02:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You say the stub version is POV and unacceptable. Richard says the old version is POV and unacceptable. Six of one, half dozen of another. Two independent editors came along and said the article should be rewritten from scratch. I offered to put my uninterested wording of the Tribunal citation into the stub article so we can move on with said rewriting process. What objection do you have to that? - Che Nuevara 02:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, it seems to me that you are (probably unintentionally) misrepresenting the community consensus (which I still maintain is dubious at best). As far as I can see, the only editors other than you to mention the Tribunal were Philosophus (who voted keep) and TealCyfre (who nominated it for deletion). Even if there was a consensus, the Tribunal in particular was not part of it. - Che Nuevara 02:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict I'll reply to your last point separately)

Clearly the COI-SI group will consider any version that is not a BDORT ad as 'POV'. This is exactly the problem with having COI-SI editors as parties to this discussion. To them neutrality is not the issue at all - their only motivation is to get the best possible BDORT-friendly version, that will keep their accountants happy. Therefore I don't think that it is '6 of that vs. half-dozen of the other'. It is simply the COI-SI version vs. the well-sourced neutral version. If you think you can create a short version that includes Omura and BDORT (both are needed per both AfD's for the article to be included) and includes the NZT reference, with proper language, good luck to you. I highly suspect that your chances of finding verbiage that will be acceptable to both aforementioned camps, is slim to none. In fact, all that will happen is an edit conflict between the two sides, since their aims are clearly mutually exclusive - there is no middle ground. So after you invest all that effort on your short version, we'll end up reverting back and forth the same way as now. I believe in seeing a goal before embarking on a journey. At this point I need to understand how the financially motivated COI-SI zealots can ever be balanced against well-sourced neutral presentation fans, assuming they are both given an 'Edit' button. Crum375 02:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the AfD consensus, please recall the history here. There were originally 2 articles, BDORT and Omura. They were both about to be deleted, but during AfD-1 editors realized that the combination of BDORT/Omura is notable and hence warrants inclusion. The main mainstream scientific reference in the BDORT article was (and still is) the NZT. This reference was in the article, facing the reviewers, in both AfD discussions. Reviewers don't need to actually specify which reference proves notability, but this was the most important (mainstream, neutral, reputable) one there. The consensus reached after AfD-1 was keep and was followed shortly by a merge decision, into the current Omura/BDORT combination. Bottom line: the NZT was and is the primary reference supporting BDORT, which was decided as 'notable' by consensus, and Omura was accepted as notable because of his connection to BDORT. Hence the NZT was the key source to both AfD's. Crum375 03:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you believe that Cowman and Gzkn, who both recommended a complete rewrite, also have a conflict of interest? - Che Nuevara 03:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. As I mentioned above, there is only one COI-SI group, which is Richardmalter and the anon-IP. All the rest are well intentioned and neutral WP editors, who would like to see the article become a good WP article, well sourced and neutral. The only differences among the neutral WP editors have to do with style and priorities as to how to get to that target. BTW, I would also include AntonRojo in the neutral group, it is his version we are reverting to, and I think it's a pretty reasonable one. Crum375 03:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum needs to stop: slandaring; reverting his agreements; acting in very bad faith continuously

Crum, I think you are clearly acting in very bad faith. You have a very clear bias that was revealed in your note to Addhoc:

". . .who sells it for a living, despite the procedure (and related techniques) being declared '...irresponsible and unacceptable' by a Medical Disciplinary Review Board in NZ, please carry on. Be aware however, that the advocates, of which we have seen several, will persist until the article will look their way. When they are done, it will say that BDORT is a wonderful technique, that can diagnose and heal most diseases, from the common cold to cancer, and has simply not been appreciated by mainstream medicine. Be also aware that there are people out there, potential WP readers, who will rely on BDORT to the exclusion of conventional diagnoses and treatments, as was the case in NZ, with possible dire consequences. It is clearly not WP's role to perform any WP:OR, and we must only present WP:NPOV and WP:RS. But . . . professional advocates, who will persist indefinitely, as their livelihoods clearly depend on it."

You want to warn the world about perceived dangers you see in the BDORT. Your own words say what your bias is. Yet you do not 'admitt' it! Che noted it straightaway and noted that your opinions are in fact quite clear. This bias of yours that you wont declare publicly (you 'slipped up' once) explains why you wont even accept a NPOV stub. It also explains why you act in bad faith in many other cases - eg 'headlining' me as making unilateral changes very previously, when the very next thing you do is make "unilateral change" which is when I had to point out to everyone your sham mediation attempt. You also repeatedly revert complete mediated consensus agreements that you were part of and then try to weedle out of admitting it until I pin you down about it and you have nothing further to say but keep quite (see above). That is extremely bad faith. You also continue to slandar people every which way and think (perhaps like yourself in your day to day like) that everyone here who does not agree with you is motivated by money here primarily or even at all. Which you would be wrong about either way. Slandaring people, Crum, is uncivil behaviour. Even when I correct you re myself you continue to blatantly misrepresent me and many others. This is the height of bad faith and uncivil behaviour. Your acts of bad faith and completely uncivil behaviour are very prominent and many. I am trying to assume good faith towards you all the time, in action (however not thought), but your behaviour is virtually making that impossible. That is why I conclude that you have a very severe memory problem, as the only good faith solution to explain your actions by. I am sure that that makes the position clear. If it doesn't, get some help understanding it, from someone else, not me. I am guessing that you are some kind of medical doctor or aspiring medical person ror armchair expert of some kind who is fervently against anything like the BDORT. But that is just my guess. The rest of what I write above here, about your most uncivil behaviour is documented. This is not a personal attack; it is an exposure of uncivil behaviour which is unacceptable. ] 05:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

And if TSSR AKA all the other names he switches to does not stop ridiculing me et al I will give some further 'exposure' regarding his connection to Dr Omura and the BDORT as well which will further shed light on the POVs involved here. This is not a threat; it is merely an expression of intent after many months of patience with slandar and waste of time and energy and enormously uncivil beahviour - however zanily or subtley hidden and disguised.Richardmalter 06:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Also Sprach GenghizRat

I would argue that on the evidence it is not possible to mediate this entry.

The present active participants are, on the one hand, RM and Dots, who support a truncated form of the entry with the exclusion of the New Zealand Tribunal’s negative characterization of Omura/BDORT, and, on the other hand, Crum, AR, and myself.

Gzkn had briefly appeared, offered to sandbox a new version of the entry, and has not been heard from since.

Che has embraced the RM/Dots form of the entry in the belief that it is possible to build out a valid consensual form of the entry from this stub.

Cowman has quite recently offered to work up and present a revised form of the entry.

I am disposed to the following judgements:

1) The probability of building out an acceptable form of the entry from the present stub is effectively nil, for reasons that ought, in my judgement, be abundantly obvious.

2) As community consensus within Misplaced Pages is effectively demonstrable in instances where agreement cannot be reached by all participants only via the mechanism of the much-maligned (rightly so) revert war, there is simply no other mechanism available, all substantive matters having been addressed ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

I will, therefore, operate on that basis, as I find no support available within my admittdly finite comprehension of what we laughingly refer to as reality for the positions represented by Omura/BDORT/Richard/Dots.

If Cowman or anyone else is able to present a suitable solution, I would hope that I have the elementary sense to recognize and acknowledge that fact. GenghizRat 04:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

PS: As a bot has now happily reverted my attempt at participation, I will now leave you to your endless discussions, and Misplaced Pages to its course. GenghizRat 04:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

1. I left a message with the owner of the bot assuring him that I don't believe it was vandalism, and the revert was improper.
2. I cannot disagree strongly enough that I am "endorsing a version". I am endorsing forward progress, which seems to have come to a grinding halt due to the most recent edit war.
3. Your decision to "laughingly refer to" someone else's position is over the line. You may disagree with Richard's opinions on the matter, but that doesn't automatically make them crap. Your choice to use these words pretty much negates your any claim that you, as well, are neutral on the issue.

Interpret these as you wish. If you choose to leave, I can't stop you. - Che Nuevara 06:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Please read this before responding to anyone else's comments!

Can we quit the argument ad hominem, on both sides, and get back to working on the article? A simple yes or no will do. - Che Nuevara 06:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, with respect to you for your time and energy, I have read and will go along with your direction here. Thank you.Richardmalter 06:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Richard. I realize that you both have deeply entrenched opinions, and you each believe the other to be mistaken in his point of view. But I honestly believe that the two of you can get past that if you both agree to put aside the mess and focus on the facts of this case. - Che Nuevara 07:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, in response to your question, of course I would like to continue working on improving this article. And I for one try my best to refrain from ad hominem attacks. OTOH, I think there are some unclear issues that need addressing first. I specifically asked how you think we can logically solve the impasse reached when a group of fervent, zealous and financially motivated conflict of interest single-issue (COI-SI) BDORT advocates whose income depends on a positive ad-like presentation of BDORT, are pitted against a group of well meaning neutral WP volunteer editors whose sole goal is to reach a well sourced and neutral presentation. You didn't respond to my question above as to how you think even a short version can be logically created, when it must by definition include BDORT and NZT, and the COI-SI group will fight tooth-and-nail to suppress the NZT, which by putting BDORT in a negative light directly affects their income which depends on BDORT. Unless we have some clear and logical roadmap that can explain how to overcome this clear impasse, I don't see how you plan to just forge ahead. I am simply being realistic - I think coming up with some reasonable plan makes sense for all of us. Crum375 10:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The version I have posted now includes the NZT citation in what I believe to be a very accurate way. I think, given that the AfD called for an article which explores the controversy, there are no real grounds to argue against it. I hope that Richard sees this, and believe that he will. This "controversy" is furthered, I believe, by the very pared down use of the Shinnick citation. Although this article is, admittedly, bare bones, it's my personal opinion that everything in it is fair, and I hope that Richard will agree.

The anonymous IP has yet to show willingness to join in discussion or to approach sources appropriately. If he would like to do these things, he can, but if continues to misuse sources without attempting any real discussion, I don't think our consensus-gathering effort should concern itself with him. - Che Nuevara 20:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, Crum reverted to the version he likes that again means he breaks his own agreement which is the height of bad faith. I reverted him. But to the version before you added the Tribunial bit. But please note, not because I object to it even now at this stage, but because I do insist that it also contain the direct quote where the Tribunial states that the materials Gorringe used appeared to them to be different from Omuras and so dont help the Tribunial much anyway. Please.

sources

I added very brief summaries of both sources, both of which are clearly supported by said sources. Everyone, please do not change them to say things that are not reflected in the sources. When in doubt, go back to the source and read it thoroughly. - Che Nuevara 20:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I think your effort is commendable. It remains to be seen if Richard and friends can agree to it. My concern is mostly omission. We mention BDORT, but we don't say that BDORT is a patient forming an 'O' with his/her finger and the examiner trying to pry the fingers open. We also neglect to mention a slew of other Omura inventions, like the 'Solar papers' - a piece of paper you leave in the sun to absorb the sun's energy, which then has various healing properties. We don't mention the remote-control tele-BDORT - you can have the patient make the 'O' with his/her fingers over the phone. We don't mention that Omura sued General Motors for pollution on behalf of the people of the United States. We don't mention the psychic healing by channeling to Dr. Fritz. And so on and so on. All of these dropped items of course have good sources. By the time we'll be done fixing your version, guess what? It will be our original version, give or take, after we spend many more months of work on it. And lastly, regarding the missing POV-balance, we negelect to cite the most important NZT passage:

"We therefore accept that PMRT is not a plausible, reliable, or scientific technique for making medical decisions. We find there is no plausible evidence that PMRT has any scientific validity. It therefore follows that reliance on PMRT to make diagnoses to the exclusion of conventional and/or generally recognized diagnostic/investigatory techniques is unacceptable and irresponsible." (PMRT is used synonymously with BDORT by the Tribunal)

Crum375 20:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, I will ask this one final time. Are you, or are you not, willing to, in good faith, work with the others here, myself included, to start rewriting the article, as suggested by both Cowman and Gzkn? You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or no. - Che Nuevara 20:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I do appreciate all the work you have done so far. I have nothing but admiration for your neutrality and dedication. But I also think that a mediator cannot become a party to a dispute. In this case, as I see it, we have three (3) neutral, unrelated contributors to the article, namely myself, GenghizRat and Antonrojo, who are supporting Antonrojo's most recent revision. On the other hand we have your own attempted version, which I personally feel is problematic and I tried to explain that in my message above. We also have the COI-SI group's version, which tries to present BDORT in the most favorable way, since any negative light shed on BDORT may impact their finances. We also have other neutral people, such as Cowman and Gzkn, working on their own private versions, that we have yet to see. Given this situation, I just don't see what is being mediated and by whom. I doubt that the COI-SI group will ever accept a version that shows BDORT in a negative light. They will fight every inch of the way to counter it. OTOH, your own short version is still not NPOV, is missing lots of well sourced material and will eventually, once completed, come back full circle to the Antonrojo's version if a neutral well sourced course is followed. Bottom line: I am not sure how this situation can be answered with a simple Yes/No. Do I want WP to have the best possible, well sourced and neutral article for BDORT/Omura? Of course. How to get there, given that we have the financially motivated COI-SI group resisting well sourced facts such as the NZT? I am not sure. Crum375 21:06, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The question's not that hard, Crum. It doesn't merit that sort of answer. It merits a yes or a no. I have said time and time again that of course a shortened version won't be perfect, but it is a starting spot. It's the type of starting spot that was suggested by Cowman and Gzkn and agreed to by Richard. Do you agree to it, yes or no? I would like an answer of exactly one word. - Che Nuevara 21:15, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

No. And please let me explain why. I think we have 3 neutral contributors who agree to Antonrojo's version. We have the COI-SI group who'll never accept anything that doesn't praise BDORT, let alone denigrates it, for obvious financial reasons. Your short version is NPOV and missing many well sourced items, as I tried to explain. If we fix up your short version using the standard WP rules, we'll end up with AR's version, which we already have now, after investing a lot more time and effort. I also think that you need to decide your own role - whether you are mediating or participating as a party. Both roles are acceptable to me, but I think you need to decide which you prefer. Crum375 21:33, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, it is the role of the mediator to both foster discussion and keep discussion reasonable. I have done nothing that indicates a leaning towards either side -- I have asked you several times to support this claim, and each time you have simply repeated your accusation without examples. What I have done, however, is my best to reign in the ridiculous edit warring and outlandish behavior going on here. I will not stoop to your crass accusations that I am somehow "party" to the discussion, nor will I dignify your claim to being one of the few, the proud, the neutral.

It is quite frankly a matter of lucky for all involved here that this article did not attract more admin attention, because most people here seem to forget that edit warring in itself, even if there is no 3RR violation, is in fact grounds for blocking. You will notice, on the other hand, that my very few reverts have always been centrist and with the intention of forward progress.

It seems clear to me now, Crum, that "neutrality" at this article seems to mean "willingness to agree with whichever party is speaking at the moment", a trend which no amount of your protestations will deflect.

Please consider this case closed. I am drafting a notice of closure, a summary statement, and a recommendation for further action. I apologize to those very few who were indeed made good faith efforts in this article. - Che Nuevara 21:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear you say that Che. Hopefully you'll at least read my response here. First, I never said that you were not neutral. I praised your neutrality every step of the way, and I agree with you that it is your strongest suit. By saying that you are a party by creating a version I do not mean for a moment that you are taking sides. I absolutely accept that you have no ax to grind. I do think that a short version that I consider POV is not a good way to proceed, given that we'll end up right back where we started. Hopefully you can see that I have invested a lot of time and effort on this entry, disproportional to other articles, that I enjoy more. The reason is simply because I came here as an informal mediator trying to help, and decided to stay until the article is stable and WP-acceptable. Obviously it's not quite there yet, but I haven't given up hope. I actually think we've made some minor headway, now that we have 3 independent contributors to the article who agree on a common version. I hope we can continue and find a way to converge on a stable version. Again I appreciate all the work you have done, all your good will, and exemplary neutrality. I wish you luck in all your other endeavors, here and elsewhere. Thanks, Crum375 22:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, Crum reverted to the version he likes that again means he breaks his own agreement which is the height of bad faith. I reverted him (if you review the mediation process from months back, he always tried to hold up the process, this is nothing new), but to the version before you added the Tribunial bit. But please note, not because I object to it even now at this stage, so please put it back if you wish, but because I do insist that it also contain the direct quote where the Tribunial states that the materials Gorringe used appeared to them to be different from Omuras and so dont help the Tribunial much anyway. Please. Richardmalter 21:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

If you notice, I did actually include that material, just not as a direct quote. - Che Nuevara 21:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Che, I did notice, and just reread it in order not to be a 'hothead' about it. Would you mind just a minor tweak and put in the direct quote? Richardmalter 21:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Also re the Shinnick citation, I think it can be worked on, but fine for now the way you have it.Richardmalter 21:30, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Re Tribunal: a small tweak is alright, as long as it's indicative of the actual source. I by no means thought of my version as a "definitive" stub, just hopefully one that pointed forwards instead of backwards.

Re Shinnick: I hope it's clear that the way the anonymous IP has been using the Shinnick is a clear misuse of citation. - Che Nuevara 21:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

To save you some time, :

"it would appear from a perusal of those materials that the technique which Dr Gorringe practises is different from that practised by Dr Omura ."

is from the Tribunial report word for word.

RE Shinnick citation - I realise there was some WP:OR in it.Richardmalter 21:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

case closed

I am closing the mediation case. It has become clear to me that no amount of discussion will ever produce circumstances under which the editors involved in this case will all act neutrally and with good faith. No solution is amenable to the totality of contributors here; repeated argument ad hominem, found constantly in objections to both previous and new versions and ideas, belies the complete unwillingness of the involved to engage in discussion about content which would lead to progress within the article.

I strongly discourage any further attempts at informal mediation or resolution by any other mediators, as, quite frankly, this article has sucked away enough hours of my life, and further efforts are likely only to frustrate other mediators and waste their time as well.

I am prepared to draft formal statements for any formal action taken in any way. Please contact me if any action related to this article is taken. I will make a more formal statement of circumstances on the article's case page.

Peace. - Che Nuevara 21:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

True, a WP:RFAR would be the best option now as mediation is clearly not getting anywhere. There has been quite a bit of behavioral issues here so those can be addressed through a RFAr. Cowman109 21:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Cowman, do you want to proceed with your possible rewrite, let things proceed of their own, have this thing go to arbitration, or what? (I mean that as a neutral question, a simple inquiry, not a challenge.) Frankly, I'm sick of this *bleep*, and inclined to go with any reasonable suggestion – or maybe just chuck the whole deal, as I've attmpted to do at a number of points. Any thoughts or suggestions? GenghizRat 01:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, I thank you for your efforts. They are, I am certain, appreciated and respected by all parties involved with this entry. It would seem to me that, at the very least, your efforts have established that the core problem in this situation is radically differing irreconcilable perspectives, with comparatively few parties involved. They have also established, far more importantly, that a person committed to a good faith effort to resolve conflict is a thing of very considerable value in and of itself, irrespective of the outcome. That, in my estimation, is no small thing.

Peace. GenghizRat 00:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, guys, I would really like to believe that it's possible, but it just doesn't seem that way. I thank you for your kind words. I honestly do believe that everyone in this dispute means well, but different people obviously have different ideas of what is right, and unfortunately there was not enough flexibility in those ideas here. I hope this won't happen again.

Peace to all. - Che Nuevara 03:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Peace, Che. GenghizRat 03:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I have not yet had time to attempt a rewrite, but a RFAR does not seem far out of reach as there clearly are behavioral disputes that people seem to want to be addressed that arbitration can address. Cowman109 03:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion the behavioral disputes are rooted in deeply differing sincerely held radically differing perspectives and judgements. Is there no way within Misplaced Pages's structure to in effect determine what a community consensus may be? As I've said, in real world contexts such differences would ultimately be placed before a senior editor, editor-in-chief, whatever, who would, for good or ill settle the matter by deciding it. Here, it seems to me, there is no possible resolution other than to wait until one or more parties become so exasperated that their behavior becomes sufficient to bar or restrict them. Frankly, it seems to me an utterly inappropriate mechanism to render what is ultimately a judgement as to appropriate content. Have you any suggestion, from a more remote perspective, as to what seems best? As I've said, I'm open. GenghizRat 03:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum caused the mediation to break down, again

Well done Crum, you could not even agree on a stub while we discussed. A bigger bias than that. .. You are as Che told you the one who has inhibited the mediation; as I know you have done for months.

Che, I am sorry for your result-unfruitful waste of time and energy. But I think you thoroughly succeeded in nailing down here what the problem actually is, which is given in whast you stated re Crum above.

For the closing record, I was happy to go with the stub while we worked on it. Crum was not even that. That is the summary. Thank you again for all your efforts which were very considerable indeed. Best wishes to you.

It also needs to be noted that both the Mediator and I repeatedly told Crum and pointed out to him his repeated acting in bad faith. Richardmalter 04:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, please recognize that there are now three independent contributors to the article who support Antonrojo's version. If the mediation failed, I suspect it was for a combination of reasons, partly due to my own insistence on maintaining a well sourced NPOV version at all times, but also due to the anon-IP's and your own actions. All you need to do is follow Che's edit summaries lately on the article's history and see that he was frustrated by all of us. I also recognize that as a practitioner who uses BDORT in his daily practice you feel you must defend BDORT, and the NZT is unfortunately a very negative reference for it. I assume you understand that WP's mission is to include all well sourced and neutrally presented information for a given subject, hence we must include the NZT reference with the proper quotation from it, along with all the other properly sourced information. If you really want to get results, e.g. modified verbiage as we discussed in the past, please let's address your concerns here in the Talk page, and let's try to agree on changes here without edit-warring over them in the article, which will be counter productive. Thanks, Crum375 05:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, please recognize that a number of people are describing your behaviour as continued lack of good faith. See above for a more detailed description. The version you refer to breaks your own agreement that I have documented. This is extremely direspectful behaviour (even though you made extensive efforts to forget your decisions). You pull the wool over no one's eyes.Richardmalter 05:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted for the record that Crum is actually another name for Satan, and is responsible for global warming, frictional losses in mechanical systems, depradations caused by quantum tunneling, and excessive shedding by certain breeds of domestic animals such as long-haired cats. GenghizRat 05:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Antonrojo, please understand the fact that you are reverting a version that contains huge amounts of WP:OR and more specifically information and presentation that ALL people here have agreed by consensus is not OK (in previous mediation - archives). It is therefore not WP:correct of you to just revert as you see fit and ignore the WP community consensus on these points. Next. Everyone here, even Crum who tries to weedle out of his agreement again and who has stopped the mediation process by his acting continually in bad faith as the Mediator and I pointed out to him, agreed to have a stub version while we Start Over. This caused a ceasation of all edit wars for some time - your actions, again ignoring WP consensus community decisions are bringing on an edit war again. Now is your turn to show extended good faith and settle with a stub version while we work through citations or get Arbitration because of Crum's behaviour - which is probably what is needed.Richardmalter 05:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, have you been drinking the KoolAid again, Richard? GenghizRat 05:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, your zany comments are here or there. If you revert this version you are breaking your own agreements. Is that or is that not clear mate? Richardmalter 05:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe, Richard, you are clearly over the revert limit. Perhaps if you didn't insist on reverting the version which three other folks active on the entry seem to prefer to work with, it might be helpful. GenghizRat 05:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

ps: To paraphrase Chris Knight from Real Genius: Zany? Zany? Who talks like that? GenghizRat 05:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, you agreed to go with a stub. You are acting in bad faith. This version also has things in it that you specifically and explicitly in mediation agreed against, voluntarily. This is a very poor act of good faith, if there is such a thing. Your clinging to WP:3 revert rule cant change those facts. You either act in good faith or you do not. You either obey your own agreements or you do not. It is very simple. It requires, as Che asked of Crum, a simple yes or no (that Crum weedled out of in very bad faith). You have in the past asked of my good faith, which up to now as you know I have kept, but you and Crum are as Che implied wasting people's time and productive lives with continued bad faith - I am not alone in saying this; you need to know that my intention is that there is a limit to this. Arbitration will silence all of such nonsense.Richardmalter 06:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Our perceptions, Richard, as you may have noted, differ. If you feel arbitration is appropriate, as you felt mediation was appropriate, I suggest, as in the case of your request for mediation, you follow your judgement where it leads you. GenghizRat 06:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You are acting in bad faith. You know that the mediation archives show some things were closed as agreed (by all). You are breaking objective documented decisions, as well as the Starting Over agreement. This has nothing to do with perceptions - but good faith and respect. If that is still not clear ask someone else, not me. Please revert now to the stub that Che prepared.Richardmalter 06:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I indicated some time ago that my understanding was that the stub was allowed to stand, provisionally, pending Gzkn's stated intent to produce a sandboxed version of the entry for all to consider afresh and that, after some considerable time, as that did not happen, and I judged your stubbed version unsatisfactory, I indicated rescission of that provisional acceptance of your stubbed entry. I fail to see how that constitutes bad faith. I'm perfectly content to stand on the record.

Please pass the cheese, thank you. GenghizRat 06:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Lets say I accept what you say in good faith. The other point, though, that you participated in a full consensus, voluntary mediation process that reached clear decisions re pseudocience citations, that you were fully part of, you now revert, and have done repeatedly. No room for interpretation there - you just are acting very disrespectfully to everyone involved now and in the past. Please revert to she most stable version we have ever had in fact - the stub that Che drafted.Richardmalter 06:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That is not my comprehension of the facts, which is, I believe, if anyone summons the superhuman patience, supported by the record. I am sorry, Richard, but I have no reason to substitute your judgement for my own. GenghizRat 06:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion closed and action taken as agreed. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Yoshiaki_Omura/MediationArchive_1

What's this, a fabrication?! I guess you and Crum both have serious memory problems, is the only good faith way I can interpret your behaviour.Richardmalter 06:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, this ground has been covered, time and again. I will not reargue at length what has already been argued and reargued on innumerable occasions. The record, will, I believe, speak for itself for anyone with the infinite patience to consider it. I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to desist from gratuitous insults.

If you would be so kind as to pass the cheese it would, in fact, be appreciated, thank you. GenghizRat 06:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So do you deny that what is documented in the archive happened? IF you do not, what agreement was made there? Bad faith, as the mediator also pointed out re Crum, extendedly. Richardmalter 06:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I am simply pointing out, in all sincerity, that our comprehension of the conduct in question and of the record appears to differ. I believe the record will support me, and I will stand on that. I presume you feel similarly, in all good faith. We differ. That's the way it is, at least in my understanding. GenghizRat 06:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, as I noted many times before, I agree with you that not all is perfect in our current version. And I do want to keep improving it. But the proper way to do it is without violating WP:3RR (which you have just done yet again), without ad hominem attacks, and by agreeing to discuss every change right here on the Talk page prior to modifying the article. If you will agree to these ground rules, and will promise to never violate WP:3RR again, and never to make any modification to the article prior to our reaching consensus here on the Talk page, I'll be happy to work with you and accept your inputs. Although you may not believe it, just like the day I arrived as informal mediator on this page, I still very much want the article to reflect true neutrality, and not one atom's width offset from neutrality to either side of a perfect balance. So please give this a chance. What do you say? Crum375 06:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Crum, you avoid the point, as usual. You are also breaking your agreements as GR is doing. Che asked you if you will have a stub while we work on it. He even included the Tribunial info - all in summary. You would not agree. The Mediator and I have told you flatly that you are acting in continued bad faith. You are. GR is doing the same. You cannot dismiss as my opinions of your bad faith, Che saw and stated the same thing. Stop weedling. Revert the stub Che prepared and we can discuss. Otherwise your reputation is of a continuous bad editor of wikipedia that has been noted by me and the Mediator as such on the record. I will in the meantime endow you with a very poor memory in good faith.Richardmalter 07:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, one of the beauties of WP is that everything we say is on the record and easy to retrieve as a 'diff'. If you want to discuss what I said or agreed to in the past, that's the way to do it: present the diff and I'll respond. But for us to collaborate productively on this article I would have to have your promises as I noted above. Then we can start addressing each and every one of your concerns, with or without a moderator. Remember I have no financial gain either way - all I want is an NPOV and well sourced article. Crum375 07:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I will again direct you to my comments above, Richard. I believe it's quite clear from the record that, as Gzkn had just appeared and offered to produce a sandboxed version of the entry within a few days, which, unfortunately, has not as yet happened, as Che had indicated he would be away for some days over the Thanksgiving Holiday, I agreed to simply, provisionally, let you have a go at a shorter version of the entry. I honestly think it was quite clear that this was simply provisional, pending time and the return of Che and the production of Gzkn's sandboxed entry as an uninvolved outsider's attempt at contributing a version of the entry on which all might, hopefully, agree to work. As time passed, as Gzkn did not return or present a sandboxed version, I eventually concluded that it was appropriate to rescind my provisional acceptance of the stubbed entry. I'm sorry if this created an appearance of bad faith in your mind, but I don't think it constituted bad faith, and I believe a close reading of the record will confirm that. That's my understanding of what you're referring to. I don't question your sincerity, Richard, but we sincerely differ here. As I said, I have no reason to accept your judgement in place of my own. GenghizRat 07:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

An additional thought: I'm willing, if there's general agreement, to operate in the fashion Crum suggests. I think, though, that there must be general agreement, and that AR — I think — seems more inclined to work on the longer entry directly rather than via the mechanism of all changes being first agreed in discussion. Frankly, this also seems to me a possible valid approach. So, perhaps I seem ambivalent here, but I think it would be essential to involve AR in consideration of how best to proceed, and not neglect his contributions to date and possible desire to so contribute in future. I would think all would agree that that, too, is important. GenghizRat 07:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Crum375 07:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The cats away so you two are playing top mice. Crum I will start every reply to you and whenever you are mentioned from hereon with: Crum375 has been determined by the previous Mediator, Che, as having "a continued lack of good faith" and "resistant to mediation". I refer you Crum to the above re your behaviour. You avoid repeatedly, slandar, misrepresent, revert your agreements, and hide your biases. We will start from a stub or have an edit war. You have tried your tricks before. Your reputation will be relayed to the Arbitration people as well as widely in wikipedia.Richardmalter 08:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

RichardMalter, see WP:CIVIL. Antonrojo 14:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Richardmalter (talk · contribs) has been blocked for 24 hours due to yet another WP:3RR violation. Crum375 14:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Summary of disputed issues

Here's a summary of disputed issues that Che listed on the peer review page which might be a good focus for consensus-building: Antonrojo 16:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(list below pasted from comment by Che at Misplaced Pages:Peer_review/Yoshiaki_Omura)

From where I see it, the actual issues are:

1. How notable does a source have to be to speak on a topic which is only borderline notable? How expert does he have to be to talk about something about which little is known? (Shinnick citation)
2. How can a topic with few or no secondary sources be cited? (Tribunal citation)
3. Is it appropriate to cite a lack of sources? That is, is the absence of evidence the evidence of absence? (Disclaimers)
4. Is the article primarily about Omura, or primarily about BDORT? If its focus is Omura, how much of Omura's notability is owed to BDORT?
5. Is it appropriate to discuss other doctors and their techniques who cite Omura?

I have only a moment at the moment. If I may, I'd like to offer my thoughts along these lines later today. GenghizRat 20:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

All righty, then. Simply to compare thoughts, this is the comparable list I'd draw up. I'm not saying it's superior, I'm simply saying that this is the list I'd draw up:

1: Is Yoshiaki Omura, the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test, and/or his other researches and techniques notable according to Misplaced Pages criteria of notability?

2: If he and/or they is/are notable, on what basis, precisely?

3: If he and/or they is/are notable, what is the principal focus of the entry, and what, if any, are its subsidiary foci, and in what hierarchy of importance?

4: Does the basis or bases of notability define or constrain the entry in any fashion, or, once notability is established, is the entry then open beyond the established basis or bases of notability, and, if so, in what fashion?

5: Are there any particular considerations as to appropriate sourcing and/or expertise other than the standard considerations within Misplaced Pages practice which apply to this entry, and, if so, what are they?

6: Ought there or ought there not be any consideration given to an editor’s assertion of expertise or declaration of professional and/or financial interest in the matters under consideration? GenghizRat 23:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite and add a few of mine:

1. What are the criteria for categorization of an article as pseudoscience and/or quackery, and does this article meet them?
2. Should we include the quackery-related reference from quackwatch.com that was discussed here?
3. I think we should explain what the NZT meant by saying "The Omura materials were not helpful" while still equating BDORT with PMRT.
4. I think we should carefully go over every source Richard has produced, and decide whether/how to use it

I'll add more items if I think of any. Crum375 02:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Dots

I would suggest it might be helpful if Dots worked within this context rather than independently, which, it would seem to me is less than ideal. GenghizRat 20:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The Actual Situation

The above would fool the beginner here but not those with any experience of you.

The following facts sum up the situation:

(1) Crum and GR have continuously reverted full consensus mediated agreements that they were fully party to.

2) They have denied (1) above repeatedly - until I showed them the archives where there words and agreements are documented. Then they try to weedle out of it.

3) Crum has continuously "resisted the mediation" in the words of the last Mediator, to the extent that the Mediator gave up. Crum shows no real intention to do anything totally unbiased or act in any kind of good faith way:

4) Crum has displayed a "continual lack of good faith" during the mediation process, in the words of the Mediator. He has in fact acted in continuous bad faith throughout.

5) Crum and GR have teamed up to out-revert me in order tomaintain (1-4) above and in so doing make a mockery of WP.

6) GR and Crum have serious memory problems in good faith - otherwise we have no option but to understand that they are just prepared to lie whenever it suits them.

7) I will be requesting Arbitration ASAP. Richardmalter 06:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that to be the appropriate course, I would suggest you do so. GenghizRat 06:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I have just reversed your reversion to your and the Anonymous Dots form, restoring the version as per the efforts of myself, Crum, and AR. I would once again ask you to refrain from personal attacks. If you feel you can make arguments in discussion to convince others of the merits of your positions, please do so. Alternatively, if seeking arbitration seems to you the most appropriate course, please do so. GenghizRat 06:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard: please do not quote me out of context or ascribe motives to me which I have not expressed. I closed the mediation because it was getting nowhere, as every possibly avenue was rejected by some disputant or other, not necessarily by Crum. Just because Crum was the last person with whom I was frustrated before I decided to close the case does not mean he was the only person with whom I was frustrated. I suggest that you allow me to recount what I said as I deem necessary, because the last thing I want is comments I made in a good faith but ultimately frustrating attempt to mediate turned into barbs devoid of context used against other editors. If you're going to fight, please do so with your own words, not with mine. - Che Nuevara 07:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Afterthought: please notify me on my talk page if an Arbitration case is opened. - Che 07:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks, again, for the effort. GenghizRat 07:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Che, much appreciated. Crum375 12:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, because Crum and GR are prepared to act in such an underhand way, I have little choice but to use reliable neutral third party citations, such as your own, to describe their actions. I do not hold it against you one bit for giving up; but please realize that in actuality I have been left again after months of my efforts to resolve this through mediation, acting in good faith, 'against' two people who will lie if necessary or perhaps just have terribly bad memories is kinder to say about them - if they want to. Your comments are public record and I will recall them word for word in proper context. You said to Crum:

Truth is, it did find another consensus: we all agreed that we could start over and build from the ground up. And we all agreed to stop revert warring. Retracting those comments now does not mean that this consensus was not reached. I find this and similar reverts to be in extremely bad faith

Your insistence to interpret agreements to the letter, rather than in spirit, shows a continued lack of good faith

You are now the one being resistant to mediation. Richard has agreed to work on a rewrite. Any more accusations that "conflict of interest" is holding up this mediation are completely devoid of merit. Either you're willing to work on this in the way that two independent editors suggested, or you aren't. It's very simple. Yes or no

You never said to me that I was acting in bad faith, nor that I was blocking progress - because I was not, I agreed with and stated so about just about everything you proposed, if not everything, be it both procedural and content. Crum blocked this all the way and stretched every reasonable effort by you to ridiculous, underhand lengths. Above on this page you will find that he tried to lie his way out of his agreements in the previous round of mediation - until I pinned him down about it and then he still tried to weedle his way out of it by calling them "minor technicalities" - which were in fact usages of citations (hardy minor technicalities as this is exactly what he continually blocked your efforts by arguing ad infinitum over to the point of you giving up). Your words form third party reliable statements as part of this record. I will certainly notify you re Arbitration. Do you suggest this is the best way to go?Richardmalter 13:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Che, my afterthought, I am guessing you know this, but what they really want, especially Crum, is to keep this completely WP unacceptable version up as long as they can and protract and discussion ad infinitum - that way Crum considers that he is 'winning'. He wont admit it but that is the reality - that is why he would not leave a stub. Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade and accept that someone has no good faith whatsoever. Richardmalter 13:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I will assume that despite all the harsh words you have for me, which you have repeated many times here and on Che's Talk page, somewhere underneath the critical rhetoric you do understand that all I want is what's good for WP, and that deep inside you still trust my integrity and honesty (although you may not externally admit it). Even if I am wrong, and your lack of trust goes all the way down to your core, it may still be worth your while to listen.

As I see it, you have 2 choices. You can continue to work on the Talk page with the three of us who support the current version (GR, AR and myself), and any others who may join us, to try to make it better. As you may note, all three of us have listed issues that we think need work, and this includes Che's list also. You are more than welcome to participate with us here on the Talk page, by providing your personal perspective of BDORT. If you do choose this option, I would appreciate if you refrain from editing the article directly, as you clearly have a conflict of interest, per your web page, with your name being listed alongside Omura's and others on some public documents. We will pay careful attention to all your comments and will ensure that anything that meets WP's requirements will be properly reflected in the article.

Alternatively, you can file for Arbitration. This is purely your choice, and you are free to do so at any time.

Thanks, Crum375 14:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I will repeat myself (hopefully) clearly: I closed the mediation because all paths I could conceive of were thwarted in some way or another. There were times in this mediation, both in the archives and in the period that I worked, when everyone acted in a less than exemplary fashion. I tried my best throughout the entire mediation to refrain from commenting on these incidents because I believed it served the interests of neutrality. By the bitter end I was nearly to the point of losing my religion and called Crum out on behavior which I found frustrating. But the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I stand by my claim that my comments stand on the page in context. If you believe what you are saying of Crum, then you can support that with your own words, and it should suffice. I once again respectfully request that you leave my words to express my opinion, not yours. As far as Arbitration goes, I cannot and will not give advice on whether and how to file the case, as it would compromise my position in the process. Thank you for your understanding. - Che Nuevara 17:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Richard, I think everyone here understands your frustration. Indeed, from our varying perspectives, I believe we've all shared it. As I've said, my comprehension of this situation is very straightforward: There are sincerely held opposed perceptions both as to reality and as to what is appropriate for this entry per Misplaced Pages criteria. I respectfully suggest you consider your course and make your decision as to whether or not in fact you wish to pursue arbitration. GenghizRat 20:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The point is GR, that you don't even have the good faith and will to start from a stub that many people said is obviously the sensible way to go. I have explained above why Crum will not agree to this. You also both do not keep to agreements. I will not bother repeating more than this. You and Crum are unique in that documented mediated consensus decisions - you pretend did not happen and revert. You wont keep to your agreements. You are trying to 'liberalize' and be 'objective' and hide the hard facts. Did you or did you not participate in mediation that resulted in the words "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"? When you have the decency to keep your agreements, and Crum too, then I will start to listen, not before. Crum, I have no faith in you whatsoever regarding this entry, your behavior as I have documented it is the reason. I have told both of you that you must have serious memory problems or that you are liars. It is documented above - Crum tried to say that he agreed to nothing "whatsoever" until I forced him to admitt it. You GR are much the same. Richardmalter 21:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

As I indicated, my perception is that there are markedly different perceptions as to the underlying realities and Misplaced Pages processes. I am perfectly content to stand on the record. I would appreciate it if you would desist from personal attacks. I would again respectfully suggest that you either offer arguments and evidence in an attempt to convince others to your positions or, alternatively, seek arbitration or similar appropriate mechanism. GenghizRat 21:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

GR, I consider lying a personal attack. I ask you to desist from it immediately. The point is GR, you perception may be whatever you dream it is, but that you don't even have the good faith and will to start from a stub that many people said is obviously the sensible way to go. I have explained above why Crum will not agree to this. You also both do not keep to agreements. I will not bother repeating more than this. You and Crum are unique here in that documented mediated consensus decisions - you pretend did not happen and revert. You wont keep to your agreements. You are trying to 'liberalize' and be 'objective' and say 'everyone is frustrated etc' and hide the hard facts. Did you or did you not participate in mediation that resulted in the words "discussion closed and action taken as agreed"?? The answer is you did. When you have the decency to keep your agreements, and Crum too, then I will start to listen, not before. Crum, I have no faith in you whatsoever regarding this entry, your behavior as I have documented it is the reason. You would make a politician worthy of the worst of them. I have told both of you that you must have serious memory problems or that you are liars. This is not opinion, it is documented above - Crum tried to say that he agreed to nothing "whatsoever" until I forced him to admit it. You GR are much the same. I hope that is clear. Richardmalter 21:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Another afterthought GR. You once asked me to keep your real identity private. In good faith I have as I said I would. You have not returned my good faith. When you keep your agreements, I will know that you have decided to - not before. I will only judge by actions not by any words that you will write here.Richardmalter 21:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

1. Quackwatch characterization of the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test or 'Omura Test' en passant

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