Talk:Ex-gay movement: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 10:25, 22 March 2020 editSxologist (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users2,240 edits →Potential addition to "People who no longer support the ex-gay movement": new section← Previous edit		Revision as of 10:25, 22 March 2020 edit undoSxologist (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users2,240 edits →Potential addition to "People who no longer support the ex-gay movement"Next edit →
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	== Potential addition to "People who no longer support the ex-gay movement" ==		== Potential addition to "People who no longer support the ex-gay movement" ==

	] is perhaps one of the first psychologists who practiced conversion therapy, and disavowed it in the early 1970's. He was also the President of the ~~American~~ ~~Psychological~~ ~~Association~~ in the 1970's. There isn't much on his wikipedia page regarding this, however this feautures a lot of quotes from an interview he did. I'm sure there is a better secondary source covering his shift elsewhere, in a book or a journal. At the time they didn't technically call it "ex-gay", but should he be included? He also later supported removing homosexuality from the DSM. --] (]) 10:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)		] is perhaps one of the first psychologists who practiced conversion therapy, and disavowed it in the early 1970's. He was also the President of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapiesn in the 1970's. There isn't much on his wikipedia page regarding this, however this feautures a lot of quotes from an interview he did. I'm sure there is a better secondary source covering his shift elsewhere, in a book or a journal. At the time they didn't technically call it "ex-gay", but should he be included? He also later supported removing homosexuality from the DSM. --] (]) 10:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

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Scientific consensus on conversion therapy

Cutterx2202 is trying to insert the following into the body of the article. The direct citations within this section are

The subarticle tied to this part of the lede is Sexual orientation change efforts

Right now every citation supports that there is "A large body of research and global scientific consensus indicates that being gay, lesbian, or bisexual is compatible with normal mental health and social adjustment" rather than "there is an ongoing research effort that tries to show that being gay, lesbian, or bisexual is compatible..."

As per wikipedia's varifiability principle that we must accurately reflect the reliable sources, the proposed change introduces an expression of doubt when there isn't any doubt in the citations or scientific community. The idea that homosexuality is somehow not normal mental health has been a fringe argument since the 1970's. I have therefore reverted the change.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC) I have also removed the "citation needed" label that they added to the lede in accordance to wikipedia's lede citation policies. The section that Cutterx2202 is asking for citations accurately reflects well referenced claims within the body of the article so no additional citations in the lede are necessary according to wikipedia's lede policies.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

In reference to the requesting citation - yes, they are included later in the article, which is the wrong place for them. The first instance they are used, especially here where it is a bold claim, is where they should be cited. I'm not doubting the validity of the citation, only that by placing them later, it is making it appear as if the claim does not need cited, but it does.

In reference to the slight wording change - the original wording is ambiguous ("Because of this") because of what? Is it referencing the "scientific consensus", which there is not, and cannot be on such a topic where there is still hot debate on it's origins? Is it referencing the content of research that's been done? It's ambiguous. My wording was not changing the meaning, nor the strength of the research, and wasn't even debating the particular research, just taking away the ambiguousness, and giving it a more accurate, unbiased representation of the current state of affairs. The insistence that "scientific consensus" remain also gives it a biased tinge because of the dubious nature of the statement. Let the raw amount and content of the research speak for itself; no need for projection.

Also, please don't make up arguments ("The idea that homosexuality is somehow not normal mental health has been a fringe argument since the 1970's."). Considering the scientific issue itself is still unsettled, and hotly debated even among scientists, and to a greater extent the public at large, that statement has no place.Cutterx2202 (talk) 03:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is completely off-base. The fact that we're not yet entirely sure what causes homosexuality does not translate to any kind of medical or scientific uncertainty about whether or not it is harmful. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:41, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

please provide reliable sources which show that "the scientific issue itself is still unsettled, and hotly debated even among scientists" to back up your claim, and please pay attention to what a reliable source is before you start posting articles that we simply cannot use. Right now the sources themselves state that there is a scientific consensus, the APA states that there is a scientific consensus, and that argument appears to be a fringe argument. Take note of wikipedia's due weight policy, even if you do find sources you will need to show that they are somehow equally represented in the scientific literature before we can give them equal time in the article. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 15:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

as for the citation in the beginning of the article, according to wikipedia's lede rules a citation in the lede is not needed provided that it is represented by cited sources in the body of the article.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

as a side note, I didn't make up the argument that "the idea that homosexuality is somehow not normal mental health has been a fringe argument since the 1970's." The year was actually 1975, and it was the year that the APA actively sought to break the stigma on Homosexuality and classified it as normal mental health. . Coffeepusher (talk) 20:58, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

There has been zero evidence linking to direct genetics (DNA). In fact, through the twin study, it made clear it very likely is not linked to DNA. It is still a hot & debated field of research in science, especially in the newly created field of epigenetics (the field created almost entirely due to this topic). If it were not a hot topic in science, there would be little to no research. Your APA reasoning shows directly the opposite of what you think it does - it shows a biased entity trying to influence others, and you even stated it as such. Stating that there is a consensus does not make it so, and is often dubiously trying to stifle valid discourse. Evidence that it is a hot topic in the public is readily available in referendum votes, what makes the news (Kim Davis), and one would simply be lying to say it's not a debated public topic. There is no consensus yet, scientifically or publicly.Cutterx2202 (talk) 00:21, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

The APA is a credible source for their statement "Despite the general consensus of major medical, health and mental health professions that both heterosexuality and homosexuality are normal expressions of human sexuality, efforts to change sexual orientation through therapy have been adopted by some political and religious organizations and aggressively promoted to the public.". We can't substitute original research for verifiable content from reliable sources.- Mr X 00:54, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Kim Davis is not a scientist nor a medical professional. We don't look to her as a source for such knowledge. --Nat Gertler (talk) 00:59, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on the contributer making the statement that there IS a consensus, so instead of taking away the unsourced claim that there's a consensus, I will mark it as citation needed since there has yet to be one.Cutterx2202 (talk) 02:36, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

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Recent addition

Darwin Naz recently made a large addition to the article. I accept that the addition was made in good faith and indeed much of it looks helpful. Unfortunately, the addition was in some ways misleading. It also involves an improper synthesis of sources, as described at WP:SYNTH. The first part of the addition lists the main goals of the ex-gay movement, including "coordination with individuals and organizations, particularly opponents of gay and lesbian civil equality to influence public perception and public policy" among other things. It is cited to Ex-Gay Research, a scholarly book edited by Jack Drescher and Kenneth Zucker. The second part states that "These goals rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that change for homosexuals is possible through therapy and prayer", and it is cited to an article in The Atlantic, a non-scholarly popular magazine. The content cited to The Atlantic is misleading, since it is not in fact true that supporters of the ex-gay movement all view sexual orientation as a choice, and nor is it supported by the source provided. The material makes it look as though the popular Atlantic article discusses the goals of the ex-gay movement as described in the scholarly book Ex-Gay Research and shows that they "rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice", which is not the case. What the Atlantic article actually states about "choice" is that, "Ex-gay leaders traveled to churches and appeared on television news programs citing a litany of examples of happily married “former homosexuals” to demonstrate that sexual orientation is a choice and that change is possible." That statement does not support the claim that the goals of ex-gay movement as described in Ex-Gay Research "rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that change for homosexuals is possible through therapy and prayer". FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:21, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Potential addition to "People who no longer support the ex-gay movement"

Gerald Davison is perhaps one of the first psychologists who practiced conversion therapy, and disavowed it in the early 1970's. He was also the President of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapiesn in the 1970's. There isn't much on his wikipedia page regarding this, however this article here on USC's student blog feautures a lot of quotes from an interview he did. I'm sure there is a better secondary source covering his shift elsewhere, in a book or a journal. At the time they didn't technically call it "ex-gay", but should he be included? He also later supported removing homosexuality from the DSM. --Sxologist (talk) 10:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

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