Misplaced Pages

• mildly acceptable I think this one has merit Mark us street 17:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• acceptable BECAUSE: based on the facts alone, namely the reality on the ground, and not some legal fiction, the above is correct. Moldova tried in 1992 to make reality correspond to the legal fiction that they maintain, and they failed. - Mauco 21:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• Unacceptable. Is not a country and is dependent of Russia. Without support from Russia, Transnistria would not have been born as a political entity.--MariusM 23:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not conclusively proven by anyone. And even if it was, lots of countries in the world have received support from other states before, during and after the state creation process. This is a political issue, and in and of itself it does in no way disqualify any country from being a country under international law. - Mauco 23:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Well it is a country and the rest of us have long left that argument behind. Regardless, PMR recieves massive support from a number of countries in the west, including the UK, USA, Holland, Norway, Germany, and Ireland. to name a few, if Russia pulled out of humanitarian aid programmes these countries would and could fill the void. Mark us street 23:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• Unacceptable Transnistria is not a country. Transnistria is a region in Moldova under Russian military occupation. EvilAlex 20:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
• Not until hell freezes over, agree with EvilAlex.--Euthymios 17:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Version 7

Transnistria (officially Pridnestrovie) is a region of the Republic of Moldova in southeastern Europe which since September 2, 1990 have been on de facto control of Russian Federation. Moldova and international community have strongly criticized Russian government action and called for unconditional withdrawal of arsenal and personal of 14th Russian army stationed on Moldavian territory.

• acceptable The only version that reflect the present day reality EvilAlex 18:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• Not even remotely acceptable. Both this one, number 7, and number 6 are equally rediculous, but for opposite reasons.Jonathanpops 19:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• acceptable

As President Bush said recently in Washington, during a visit by Romanian President Basescu, the U.S. seeks resolution of the Transnistria conflict that fully and unequivocally respects Moldova’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Transnistria is a part of Moldova, no questions asked. Fomenting separatism, whether in Transnistria or elsewhere, is simply unacceptable. As part of the solution, let me also reaffirm our view that Russia needs to fulfill its commitments made in Istanbul in 1999 and remove its forces and munitions from Moldovan territory.

according to David J. Kramer, Deputy Assistant Secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs (US official)Dl.goe 19:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This is merely a political opinion of a foreign official from a country which has no ties to Transnistria, no borders with Transnistria or Moldova, no historical connections, and no large amount of citizens living in Transnistria. It is not gospel, and it can certainly not be used to determine how we edit Misplaced Pages. I wonder why you either bother to list it here. It would be much more appropriate to list the statement of the Russian Foreign Ministry which repeatedly has stated that any status settlement solution must take into account the democratic will of the people who live there: The affected population. - Mauco 21:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The declarations of the Russian foreign ministry will always support a position which justifies the presence of their troops in Transnistria and the privatization (i.e., eventual legalization of the privatization) of Moldovan assets into Russian hands. Declarations about the PMR by the Russian foreign ministry are as POV-slanted as those by the PMR itself. Russia is a direct party to the conflict--while the U.S. is not. You seem to be saying the U.S. is more POV than Russia itself, moreover, that only those with direct and-by-definition-highly-POV involvement (and only on the side of Transnistria) are reputable sources. U.S. government = discredited and inadmissible source as per Mauco? It's entirely appropriate to report what the U.S. government says (this is after all the English Misplaced Pages, and the U.S. is the largest English-speaking country) without the need to draw further conclusions. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 18:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• Unacceptable Pure extremism. Mark us street 22:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• not accepted not because I dispute its contents, as does Mark, but because there does need to be mention that September 2 was the declaration of the PMSSR. Were this actual agreement with Mark, the Earth would have stopped spinning and we'd have all fallen off. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
• Acceptable--Euthymios 17:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
• Acceptable.--MariusM 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Version 8

Transnistria (also named Pridnestrovie) is a region of the Republic of Moldova in southeastern Europe which declared its sovereignty as a separate republic within the USSR on September 2, 1990. Its de facto independence subsequent to the fall of the Soviet Union has not been recognized, and its sovereignty and the continued presence of Russian military forces there remain issues of contention.

• Acceptable —Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
• Acceptable--Euthymios 17:13, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
• Not Acceptable Transnistria is NOT a region of Moldova, Moldova has a stale claim but the de-facto reality is Transnistria is not a region but an independent country. Mark us street 20:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Version 9 (= version 8, but does not mention Russian troops)

Transnistria (also named Pridnestrovie) is a region of the Republic of Moldova in southeastern Europe which declared its sovereignty as a separate republic within the USSR on September 2, 1990. Its de facto independence subsequent to the fall of the Soviet Union has not been recognized, and its sovereignty remains an issue of contention.

• Provisionally acceptable, Mauco and Mark will maintain that a small insignificant helpful Russian "peace-keeping" force has no bearing on the situation there. Acceptable as long as presence of Russian troops remains appropriately mentioned elswhere. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
• Provisionally acceptable, agree with Peters.--Euthymios 17:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
• Not acceptable Transnistria is not a region of Moldova no more than California is a region of Mexico. Mark us street 19:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Mark, it's not recognized and it's within the boundaries of Moldova. To leave Moldova out removes all historical context for why the PMR even exists. You might as well just say it's a region on the planet Earth. Accordingly, double digits, this (Version 10) is also factual and makes no reference to the current Republic of Moldova...

P.S. Absolutely no possibility of calling the PMR an independent country until the Russian Federation Russians leave (and sufficient time has passed to ascertain the result). Sorry, that's just the way it is. Print what you like on your web site. —Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Version 10

Transnistria (also named Pridnestrovie) is a region of the former Moldovan S.S.R. in southeastern Europe which declared its sovereignty as a separate republic within the USSR on September 2, 1990. Its de facto independence subsequent to the fall of the Soviet Union has not been recognized, and its sovereignty remains an issue of contention.

• Provisionally acceptable (as before, with reference to Russian troops). —Pēters J. Vecrumba 22:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC) .
• Comment: I think that the lead should not mention the legislative technicalities of the declaration. They should be in the history section. Instead, perhaps, a differentiation should be made between Pridnestrovie (the territory that is internationally recognized as a region of Moldova) and PMR (the internationally unrecognized state that currently controls Pridnestrovie) to avoid confusion about what's recognized and what's not, as well as to prevent those truly moronic suggestions like "unrecognized region". --Illythr 19:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

"10" is a bit much, no need if Mark is departing... "9" I think states it about as well as possible. It *is* significant that the PMR declared itself a sovereign Soviet republic, not "independent"--and that de facto independence only came as the result of the collapse of the Soviet Union (which the PMR was eager to forestall!).  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 04:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying that it's insignficant, just that it's too technical for the intro. I would rather prefer #4 instead, as I don't understand how mentioning that the territory now functions as an unrecognized state can be POV. --Illythr 05:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no POV in explaining the reality. Unless certain editors live in a fantasy world and won't accept what is really going on. - Mauco 21:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Version "4 + 10"

Transnistria (Pridnestrovie) is a region of the former Moldovan S.S.R. in southeastern Europe that is internationally recognized as an autonomous territorial unit of the Republic of Moldova.

Transnistria declared itself a separate republic within the USSR on September 2, 1990. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, (most of) that territory has de facto functioned independently under the control of the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (PMR). The PMR has not been recognized as an independent state, and sovereignty over Transnistria remains an issue of contention.

• Provisionally acceptable - As per Mauco's observation that brevity need not be the overriding factor, I incorporated Illythr's most recent comment (MariusM has also commented in this regard) that we must take more care in clarifying the territory versus the controlling party--and what territory that encompasses, which has not been static over time. I took out the "also called...", alternately, "officially..." references just leaving "(Pridnestrovie)"--the rest of the intro serves to summarize what things are called. ("Provisionally" = article must mention continued presence of Russian troops in proper context at the top of the article body itself.)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 15:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not bad, though "Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, (most of) that territory has de facto functioned independently under the control of the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic" doesn't make much sense, if you don't know the story already. I mean as a first time reader you'd have to ask why "Since the collapse of the Soviet Union", as there's no qualifying reason to go with it. Jonathanpops 15:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it's just a word order/clarification issue, and that a longer sentence was better after all (to not interrupt the train of thought from the start as part of the USSR to the collapse of the USSR...)—

"Transnistria declared itself a separate republic within the USSR on September 2, 1990, and with the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union, (most of) that territory has de facto functioned independently under control of the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (PMR). The PMR has not been recognized as an independent state, and sovereignty over Transnistria remains an issue of contention."

Version 11

Transnistria (Pridnestrovie) is a territory within the internationally recognized borders of Moldova in southeastern Europe which declared its independence on September 2, 1990. Its de facto independence has not been recognized and its sovereignty remains an issue of contention.

Of all the proposals, this is the one which is closest to the current version while avoiding flame-war words like "region of Moldova" and "unrecognized country". - Mauco 12:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Archiving

This Talk is currently 289 kilobytes long. Who'll volunteer to do an archive? We normally do so around the 150K-200K mark. I have normally done it in the past but I got accused of censorship the last time I tried, so I will let someone else have the honors this time. Too frequent archiving is a bad idea, but too long talk pages are also not good. Hopefully with Mark Street gone we will now have a better signal-to-noise ratio. This request is directed at all of us, though. - Mauco 14:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I archived everything but the intro debate, as that appears to be an ongoing discussion. TSO1D 14:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Intro

Looking at the results of the informal poll I set up, it appears that some versions are better starting points than other due to greater support or acceptability by users. Of course, a greater number of votes is not necessarily a better version, but could just represent a bigger number of people supporting one side. Ideally, we will be able to combine the positive aspects of all the proposed versions into one. So far some of the observations I have:

• The current version (at the time of the vote) was the most "acceptable".
• The other versions with a decent level of support from most sides where: 1, 4, and the last one (4 + 10).
• Brevity should not be considered an important factor as even the longest intro would still need to be greatly expanded.

Personally, I think the current version could be improved and that the (4 + 1) version might be one of the best starting points for further discussion. TSO1D 15:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

How about: "Transnistria (Pridnestrovie) is a region of the former Moldovan SSR in southeastern Europe that is internationally recognized as an autonomous territorial unit of the Republic of Moldova but functions as an unrecognized country. Transnistria declared itself a separate republic within the USSR on September 2, 1990, and since the collapse of the Soviet Union, that territory has retained de facto independence as the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (PMR). The PMR has not been recognized as an independent state, and sovereignty over Transnistria remains an issue of contention." TSO1D 15:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

• Sounds quite good. The last sentence needs to say who hasn't recognized the PMR as an independent state, I don't meant list them all but just, for instance, "The PMR has not been recognized as an independent state by the wordlwide community by and large.." or something like that.Jonathanpops 16:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

TSO1D, they are not votes and they can never be. This is not a popularity contest. Whatever the "numbers", we have a duty to strive for the most accurate and neutral description. - Mauco 19:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree with you, and I did say that we should incorporate the best elements from all proposals. Nevertheless, consensus is a major policy of Misplaced Pages, so we should strive to find the best version that is acceptable to the greatest number of people. However, I don't believe that these two considerations have to diverge. I sincerely believe that the last version I have put forward (the modified 4+10) presents a very accurate and neutral of the situation. What is your opinion of it? TSO1D 21:16, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but ... "greatest number of people" is not necessarily the guarantee of an encyclopedia-worthy outcome when all of us are biased and we have little outside participation from non-Transnistria focused editors. We all suffer from the bias which (as Bogdan once pointed out) is inherent in anyone who knows enough about this subject to be able to edit it in a meaningful way. On this basis alone, the idea of a vote is inherently bad. I know that you always just intended it as a poll, but the more enthusiastic cheerleaders among us clearly did not see it as such (e.g. this where the editor thinks that we are "voting"). What strikes me most is the unwillingness of otherwise reasonable editors here to consider objective facts: How does the rest of Misplaced Pages refer to Transnistria. - Mauco 23:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't really know what you mean. Didn't you say that it should be called an "unrecognized republic"? That is part of the text. TSO1D 00:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I haven't really been voting or commenting much on these, as you can see. I am skeptical about an approach which resembles a popularity contest and don't take the most basic considerations into account, such as -

• To call it a 'region', 'area', 'territory', etc is fine, but it is iffy to call it 'region of the Republic of Moldova' or similar use of the possessive, as this implies that we are taking sides. Most of the documents I have seen from the negotiation process don't do this. They refer to the parties by name, but without implying who owns which part of who (since this is the whole point of the 5+2 talks to define, and this is an ongoing process; not yet concluded).
  
• Our intro should deal with the status (de jure/de facto) only in very brief summary form. Later, users will see a section which deals with that, and there even a full article (the 'Disputed status') where we can add any level of detail.
  
• Consistency is important. Someone else advocated this originally. If there is a phrasing which is used on the major lists for countries, states, dependant areas, unrecognized widgets, etc., then look there, see what they call these things, and copy the phrasing to here. (If they are wrong, we tell them and fix it, so we can still strive for consistency.) This project, Misplaced Pages, will eventually become useless if we are not in sync with the standard terminology.
  

This is the checklist which should be used to evaluate ALL of the proposals above, instead of nursing our pet causes or personal baggage. We can't really vote on something like this. A poll is merely an indicator to smoke out individual opinions and maybe stimulate debate that will help us see the issues more clearly. - Mauco 02:40, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

If "region of Republic of Moldova" is POV, then certainly "unrecognized country" is POV even more so, and then we get into, as already mentioned, who does and doesn't recognize it and why, etc. etc.--again we wind up with something that's a popularity contest. That's why I had left "unrecognized country" out of 4+10. Wikipdia is not in a position to state the PMR (or any other territory) is a country albeit unrecognized. This is a problem in general with all unrecognized countries listed in Misplaced Pages, not just the PMR. Since Transnistria is already autonomous in any event, if we're not happy with region of the Republic of Moldova, we can certainly say region or territory within the internationally recognized boundaries of Moldova. I'm much happier with de facto functioning independently than taking the leap to unrecognized country--there's still too much foreign (Russian) influence to characterize this as spontaneous a development or a fully functional country as the PMR would paint itself. I do think we're very close to having a much more informative and accurate (and agreed to by all) introduction.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 03:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

• I wonder sometimes if some of the editors here think that the phrase "unrecognised country" has more importance than I think it does. I think just because the phrase has the word "country" in it some people are getting frustrated, but to me the "unregognized" kind of cancels out any perceived benefit pro seperatists may feel they gain with the use of the word "country". The phrase "unrecognised country" has, for instance, been used before in the UK to describe a village in the south of England that declared independence and made their own passports, which most people didn't take all that seriously. It has also been applied to a British offshore oilrig, and a group of less than 10 people in Ausrtralia. I think when most English speaking people see the phrase

"unrecognised country" they think it means a place that wants to be a country, but actually is not a country, and take it far less seriously than the wikipedia page unrecognised country. In fact if you search Google et al for "unrecognised country" you get the wikipedia article and nearly everygthing else on the front page is about Transnistria, because it's one of the few places whose followers keep trying to plug the phrase.

To put it in perspective, Republic of China (Taiwan) is probably the most famous "unrecognised country" for getting backing from the USA. It is an island that fuctions entirely seperatly from mainland China, yet their page, Republic of China, does not use the phrase "unrecognised country" at all. I'm not sure what good, if at all, any of this is to us editing this article, it's just something I was thinking about.Jonathanpops 12:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Jonathanpops. But Misplaced Pages is near the top of the list for pretty much everything, not just for the phrase that you mention. - Mauco 12:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not really relevant in the least to what I was saying?Jonathanpops 14:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Peters, I think that we are getting somewhere. The phrase "within the internationally recognized boundaries of Moldova" seems to be aggreable to all, rather than region of Moldova, and so does "de facto independent" rather than unrecognized country. - Mauco 12:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Then how about "Transnistria (officially Pridnestrovie) is a territory in Southeastern Europe within the internationally recognized boundaries of the Republic of Moldova. Although de jure it is regarded as an autonomous territorial unit of Moldova, a local Transnistrian government known as the PMR has exercised de facto control since Transnistria declared its independence from Moldova on September 2, 1990. Its independence has not been recognized and the sovereignty of Transnistria is an issue of contention." TSO1D 13:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Good. It is not my Preferred version but Acceptable. You can polish some of the phrasing, however. The first sentence will sound better by moving some words around and you don't lose any meaning. Try: "Transnistria (officially: Pridnestrovie) is a territory within the internationally recognized borders of the Republic of Moldova in southeastern Europe". We can also work on the other sentences, but they are minor issues (for instance: the "government known as PMR" part can probably be left out of the intro, since we deal with all of that elsewhere). - Mauco 13:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

4 + 10 + Mauco, TSO1D, Jonathanpops,...

Another try at it (I sectioned it off just to make future editing a bit easier)...

Transnistria (also, Pridnestrovie or Pridnestrov'ia) is a territory within the internationally recognized boundaries of the Republic of Moldova in Southeastern Europe. Transnistria declared its independence from the Moldovan S.S.R. as a sovereign republic within the U.S.S.R. on September 2, 1990. Subsequent to the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (PMR) has exercised de facto control over most of Transnistria. The independence of Transnistria under the PMR has not been recognized, and sovereignty over Transnistria continues to be an issue of contention.

• "officially" is not the best word, as it signifies according to some authority; also, in terms of academic writing, I've seen Pridnestrovie and Pridnestrov'ia fairly equally (if not actually more towards the latter); it's also the (transliteration of the) Russian appelation, so "officially" also makes it out to be a primarily Russian territory; I think we should simply show both versions so that people know how to do searches to find the widest range of materials (without having to dig through the separate names of Transnistria article which is more historically oriented)
• Transnistria did not declare independence; it declared sovereignty within the Soviet Union; to simply say independence implies it declared itself an independent country subject to no other authority, which is not the case; it's a vital clarification, which I've done my best to word as compactly as possible;
• so that we're a bit more rigorous on territory versus authority (and since it's not good form to introduce acronyms without first using the full version), I've spelled out the PMR in full followed by acronym, and
• in the last sentence, I've made it clear that it's the authority of the PMR as an independent state that has not been recognized; accordingly, it's not the sovereignty *of* Transnistria (it's certainly at least autonomous, which is also a form of sovereignty), it's really who (controlling authority) has sovereignty *over* the Transnistrian territory; finally,
• "continues to be" seemed to flow better in the overall context than "is", nothing else intended.

I was cutting and pasting in notepad, my apologies for not having all the appropriate Wiki-links embedded! (Obviously, I'll be glad to do it if it's deemed as having merit.)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 16:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

No, please don't introduce new names, at least not in the intro. TSO1D and I worked a lot on the naming issue earlier in the year, and I think we are both defending the status quo. There is a reason for the "officially" which is an indicator of how they refer to themselves in in their constitution. It does not imply official recognition. The intro used to start like this: "Transnistria, officially Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica, PMR (short form: Pridnestrovie) ..."

If we use the "also" word instead, then we should not mention Pridnestrovie but rather Transdniestria or Trans-Dniester since they are the two most commonly used alternate names. - Mauco 16:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we need extra names either, not in the intro anyway. I'm not sure about using Moldovan SSR, I know that is the factual history but it's a bit confusing. It might be better, just in the intro, to ignore the history all together and just talk about the here and now, then have the detailed history further down the page. Fow me looking up something like this in an encyclopedia I'd want to know what it is and where it is right away in the intro, then learn the other stuff if I feel like reading down the page. It (the intro) should be so uncontroversial that no one could even think of disagreeing with it or finding any part of it irksome, which I guess is what we are trying to do here.Jonathanpops 19:12, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you here, Jonathanpops. Keep the intro short and sweet. Then deal with the finicky details later, in the text itself. Peters is technically correct, but too technical. Just say "which declared its independence on September 2, 1990" and this is 100% correct, too. It was an independence declaration from the MSSR, and initially with the aim of becoming a separate SSR, and all that can and should be explained ...just not in the first line which is just a summary. - Mauco 19:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, where did "Pridnestrov'ia" come from? To me, "Pridnestrov'ia" = the genitive declension of "Pridnestrov'e" (Приднестровья and Приднестровье respectively). I have never seen this used as an alternative spelling and I have a hard time seeing it become so (at least among those familiar with Russian grammar). jamason 20:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I do have to rather insist that saying Transnistria declared "independence" is incorrect. To make it simpler, it could be independence as a republic of the Soviet Union and leave out the Moldovan SSR reference. However, it's crucial to the understanding of later events to note support for the Soviet regime from the outset. I'd be fine with this simplification:

Transnistria (Pridnestrovie) is a territory within the internationally recognized boundaries of the Republic of Moldova in Southeastern Europe. Transnistria declared its independence as a separate republic of the U.S.S.R. on September 2, 1990....

I've seen the Pridnestrov'ia spelling in various documents, and now that you mention it, you are completely correct that it should be pridnestrovye (Pridnestrov'e) not pridnestrovya to be in the proper nominative form. (So yes, that usage was incorrect!) On reconsideration best left out and just dealt with in alternate names.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In the spirit of compromise: I'd be fine with this, too, but please re-insert the word "officially" in the parenthesis to explain what "Pridnestrovie" is all about. This was part of the stable version for most of the year anyway. The reasoning goes a long, long way back. and is a compromise based on the constitution and the naming decree. TSO1D and I handled this already, from opposite sides. - Mauco 14:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Then we just need to note what "officially" means--is it simply "(officially Pridenstrovie, in Russian)" or "(Pridnestrovie, official Russian form) or "(Pridnestrovie, official Russian term)? I don't inherently have an issue with the word "official" itself, only that we shouldn't use it without putting it in context.

I would be fine with stating that's the official Russian form--or whatever else is the proper context--just a word or two. It's only the lack of context that is the issue.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 21:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

OK! How should we phrase it? We used to have - in the stable version, for the longest time - the following: "Transnistria (officially: Pridnestrovie) is a ..."

Can we keep that?

If not, do you want "Transnistria (or Pridnestrovie, per its constitution) is a ..." ...?

If we say something like "Transnistria (Russian: Pridnestrovie)" then that doesn't really cover it. It is their English name, too, according to themselves. They want to be called Pridnestrovie in English. They made a naming decree about this, some year ago. - Mauco 05:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

"(Pridnestrovie, per the PMR constitution)" works perfectly well. That already implies "officially" since we identify it's according to the PMR constitution, but I don't object to adding the word "officially" as it's now clear what is official according to whom. I'd ask for PMR over Transnistria so we maintain a distinction of territory and authority--that is, I would not agree to "(Pridnestrovie, per its constitution)".  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh so close! (re-indenting..., "" in brackets indicates word optional...)

• "officially" unbracketed below, since only Mauco and I have discussed so far; not my most preferred solution either, however, still makes the most essential points up front  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Transnistria (officially Pridnestrovie, per the PMR constitution) is a territory within the internationally recognized boundaries of the Republic of Moldova in Southeastern Europe. Transnistria declared its independence as a separate republic of the U.S.S.R. on September 2, 1990. Subsequent to the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Pridnestrovian Moldovan Republic (PMR) has exercised de facto control over most of Transnistria. The independence of Transnistria under the PMR has not been recognized, and sovereignty over Transnistria continues to be an issue of contention.

• Agreed (do still need to have that appropriate mention of Russian troops sooner rather than later in the article body)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC) P.S. with or without officially, without does look a bit cleaner, constitution sounds official enough  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
• Agreed (not the best version, but an acceptable compromise. And yes, of role of Russia has to be dealt with, too. It will always be a big part of Transnistria's recent history, for better or for worse. I agree with you on that, too, Peters.) - Mauco 13:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Just note if you still want the word officially included as well.  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please. Perfection is the enemy of the good, let us just get it approved as it stands now and not tinker more with it. We are done (I hope). - Mauco 14:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

POV of word "region" in intro

The use of the word "region" to describe Transnistria is being pushed by Moldovan government officials. This is despite the fact that it has not been used before in official documents, like the 1992 cease fire mandate signed by Mircea Snegur (then-president of Moldova).

Source: http://www.olvia.idknet.com/ol154-12-06.htm

Quote: делегация Республики Молдова стремится заменить название "Приднестровье" на "Приднестровский регион Республики Молдова", и это вызывает определенное беспокойство у приднестровской стороны. "Извините, если мы берем за основу действующую инструкцию, то должны использовать ту терминологию, которая в ней употребляется", - сказал Александр Порожан.

Rough translation: The delegation of the Republic of Moldova aims to replace the name "Pridnestrovie" with the "pridnestrovian region of the Republic of Moldova", and this causes certain uneasiness on the Transnistrian side. "Excuse me, but if we use the mandate as our basis, then we must use the terminology, which is used in it", said Aleksandr Porozhan.

Previous documents did not use this terminology. Real life shows that Transnistria is no longer a part of Moldova and that Moldova's government has, in reality, lost all control over Transnistria. The push for "region" is an attempt by Moldova's government to put something into the paperwork between the sides which is not the actual case, based on the evidence on the ground, and which has never been used before. - Mauco 12:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the names for the region and state are often used interchangeably. That is why the delegation states that it is referring specifically to the region (so that it won't seem that it implicitly recognizes the state). That is also why I urged to differentiate between them is these issues. --Illythr 13:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Illythr, the way that OSCE and most others have done it in the past is to call Moldova a republic, by spelling out the full name "Republic of Moldova", whereas Transnistria is never (ever) spelled out by its own constitutional name, "Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic". It is merely called Pridnestrovie. Not state, not republic, not region. Just the name. The OSCE has a bunch of the official documents on its site, and the Peacemaking project by the British Embassy has a lot of that, too.

My point is this: To call it a "region" is just as much POV as if we call it a "country". Moldova wants to call it a region, PMR wants to be called a country, but the mediators have long ago found an middle-ground that sort of satisfies both sides. - Mauco 03:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Region is vague enough to be neutral. A region is not necesarily a division of a country. Region of Middle East, for example, includes many countries.--MariusM 20:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure. But there is a difference between vague and neutral words like "Region" and "Area", and then "Region of Moldova" which implies a possessive relationship. This is why the government of Moldova is POV pushing it but the other sides in the conflict won't let them get away with this little stunt. One of the two sides in the conflict will not accept it, and besides, it is wholly wrong as it does not correctly identify the actual situation in the real world. - Mauco 20:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not "territory"? --Illythr 20:57, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

As you can see, the issue is not so much the word itself (like MariusM says, 'region' can be a neutral word, too), but the context when it is used as a possessive. This was the gist of the unaccepted attempt by Moldova, which is described above and for which I provided a rough translation. Otherwise territory is certainly good, too. - Mauco 21:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes Yes Yes, The Transnistria country is supposed to be part of Moldova and now she is ruled by Smirnov and I suggest we write that this country will be part of Moldova and we all believe that this will return though peace talks and good words. Esgert 19:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, let us vote for peace in the entire world. Eliminate all crime and injustice. Kill all the evil people, too, while we're at it. :-) --Illythr 21:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Photo of Smirnov

I like show photo of Igor Smirnov so people can see his face. This is a good idea. Tell no lies about him of course. He is their leader and respect that , Bad people write things and this is important to check I have some iplaans for the page, I will help you all. I am fair you will see Mr E is for you all.

We already have two photos (three if you count the election poster). They are on the Igor Smirnov page. The use of leader photos on other Misplaced Pages country pages is mixed. United States does it, so does Moldova, but many other countries don't. I would personally prefer an "action" photo (Smirnov doing something, or in a context setting) rather than a portrait, so we show a bit of Transnistria as well, since the article is about Transnistria and not Smirnov. Thanks for your offer to help. Please work through consensus. We will not tell any lies about Smirnov and I do not believe that we are currently doing so. - Mauco 20:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Good Good, And the chairman of Transnistria too, the new man, he is not like Smirnov, he is sensible and he is the real keader. Put him above Smirnov and tell why Esgert 20:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you referring to Yevgeny Shevchuk? He is not the "chairman of Transnistria" but the Speaker (chairman, if you will) of VS PMR; which is their parliament. - Mauco 14:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Border Guards

The Transnistrian border guards are very strict and are are slow. This is deliberate tactic. Sometimes they take money or cigerettes. And Ukraine bordermen too. Moldovan will take a few coins but not like the others. This is something wrong. Smirnov's son is the top border customs man and he is over these men. Also deliberate long delays for cars, Esgert 20:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

That reminds me. This article is still undeveloped... --Illythr 21:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:BAN

I've introduced back Travel Warnings, according to the Discussion.

I've introduced back Propaganda and Disinformation chapter. Whether some sources on the subject are objective or not is really important. Especially if it is about Misplaced Pages.

On violent incidents, the word isolated is biased.Dl.goe 21:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Were they widespread and all over the country unrecognized state region? --Illythr 21:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Dl.goe, your wholesale revert is a bit rash, considering 1) there is certainly no conclusive outcome of the discussion which you cite, and 2) WP:BAN specifically states that "Users are generally expected to refrain from reinstating any edits made by banned users". I am certainly willing to work with you, and others, on developing phrasing which is acceptable to all. But it must be done here, and not on mainspace unless we all enjoy engaging in those tiresome revert wars back and forth. I know I don't. - Mauco 21:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I moved the propaganda and misinformation subsection to Media in Transnistria for the time being. --Illythr 22:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, it fits there better. But now perma-banned user Greier was singling out Transnistria and painting it in the worst possible light, whereas in reality, public diplomacy is a part of what every country does. It is not unusual for them to use GONGOs to do so. Pretty much all nations are guilty of this (with the United States being the current world leader in this field). Whether we like it or not, is a reality of the international relations field. The other side will always call it propaganda and disinformation. That is another fact of life of international relations. - Mauco 22:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

If there is no consensus, there is no consensus either for introducing or for removing the text. I would like to know the reason why Greier's text is not suitable. I added back Travel Warnings because the discussion on it was stopped. I don't understand what Mauco thinks on Travel Warnings:

1.The information is irrelevant.

2.The information is relevant but this article should not include a chapter that is not yet present in any other article.

3.The information should be included, but the phrasing should be developed.

The article should not describe the violent incidents as isolated. This is like saying if the region is safe or not. Misplaced Pages should contain the facts and let the reader judge on them.Dl.goe 09:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As Mauco made some misleading comments about Misplaced Pages policies regarding banned user, just a reminder: WP:BAN is telling about reverting any edit made in defiance of a ban. Banned user Greier didn't edit in defiance of a ban, his edit was previous of the ban and was discussed in talk page. It was a legitimate edit. Fact that Greier was banned afterwards (without any relation about the edit we discuss) does not mean that everything he wrote in Misplaced Pages in one year should be removed. Also, it doesn't mean that nobody else can share Greier's view about a certain edit. Regarding Greier's ban, I consider an abuse see full story--MariusM 00:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There is really no point in discussing this. WP:BAN is clear on the matter, and Greier is permanently banned for good. On a contentious page like Transnistria, it is not kosher to introduce entire new sections without prior debate and trying to achieve consensus. So far, only Greier, yourself and EvilAlex have done that wholesale. It is even less cool to reinstate the edits of banned users. There is no need to debate this endlessly, since an admin has already told you this clearly on your own talk page, MariusM. - Mauco 01:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I told to this admin that I don't agree with him. Misplaced Pages policy is written and very clear. Expression "defiance of a ban" is mentioned, and Greier's edit was not in "defiance". We don't need Mauco's interpretation of Misplaced Pages policies when we have clear policies.--MariusM 01:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Ask some more admins, then. The policy is obviously not as clear as you say, if there can be this kind of doubt about it. - Mauco 01:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The policy is quite clear. The fact that a user is banned does not have any inherent effect on the validity of their prior edits. (If they were banned for repeated plagiarism or use of faked sources that would be an issue, but that is not the case here.) The whole point of the rule about rolling back edits made in defiance of a ban is so that they have nothing to gain by defying the ban. - Jmabel | Talk 01:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying this for all. Of course, a good part of why Greier is no longer with us is because he pulled non-consentual stunts like this on pages with a high level of dispute. Finally, the community's patience just ran out. - Mauco 03:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. But his individual edits should stand or fall on their individual merits. I've crossed paths with him quite a few places, and by no means was his work uniformly bad, unlike his attitude toward contributors with whom he disagreed. - Jmabel | Talk 08:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Transnistrian side or Separatist side?

We are labeling pro-PMR links in our External links section as "Transnistrian side". This is misleading, not all Transnistrians are supporting the separatist regime. We should use the label "separatist" instead of "transnistrian", in this and in other related articles when we are talking about forces which support Smirnov's regime. A big part of Transnistrian people want to get rid of Russian occupation and unite back with Moldova. Also, there were always some forces in Chişinău which support Smirnov's regime.--MariusM 10:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps "Official Moldovan" and "Official Transnistian", then? It's true that the links for both sides do not speak for all of the Transnistrian or Moldovan people. Although in this case I thought one would naturally assume governments, not people. --Illythr 10:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

From the 4 websites labelled as "Moldovan side" none is made by Moldovan government. Conflict.md is supported by OSCE (is publishing even pro-separatist information), Azi.md often is critic against Moldovan government. Maybe we should use the label "anti-separatist".--MariusM 10:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Not made, supportive. The material presented on those sites in relation to Transnistria supports the official Modovan position. Hm, the presidential website apears to be down, btw. --Illythr 11:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

How about PMR side instead of Transnistrian side? TSO1D 12:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

PMR would confuse new readers Truli 13:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

But I think that by the time they would reach the external links section they would know the term. TSO1D 13:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, keep things uniform, like if we include Moldovan links here it goes that Transnistrian links should also be on the Moldovan page too, and the Moldova page is really lackiing in Transnistrian info. It is like its been hidden by both sides, Truli 13:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The two sides are currently referred to as "Transnistria" and "Moldova". MariusM is of course correct in saying that not Transnistrians support independence. If we go by the referendum, only 97% do.
How many in Moldova support the official Moldovan irredentist position? I spoke to Popov who told me that there is a shift in opinion among intellectuals in Chisinau. They look to Europe and they see Transnistria as something which is holding them back from that. They would just as rather cut loose from Transnistria (the past) and focus on Europe (the future). His words. How many support the official line? Probably a majority. But not all.
That is how democracy works. We do not need all Transnistrians to agree with the official line, nor do we need all Moldovans to agree with the official line. If the positions are official and/or representative of the majority, it can accurately be labelled "Transnistrian side" and "Moldovan side" just as we do now. No change. - Mauco 14:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think an explanatory note that "pro-Transnistrian" means regarding the current PMR regime as legitimate, and "pro-Moldovan" means regarding the current PMR regime as not legitimate would be sufficient to make the appropriate distinction without confusing people. (It doesn't really boil down to just agreeing with the Moldovans or with Smirnov/Antyufeyev, which is what is implied if there is no further explanation.)  —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 14:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no need to fix something which is clear to everyone already. MariusM's proposal proceedes from the implied assumption that the majority of Transnistrians are in disagreement with their government. This is an erroneus assumption and he has no credible sources to support it. Studies published in 2006 on this matter, by German and other Western analysts, while sowing questions about the level of democratic commitment, agree that if free elections were held today under OSCE auspices, the current leadership would easily win reelection. - Mauco 14:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

No real need to change this Truli 13:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Truli, it is good to see that you are part of Talk. We had to revert some of your recent edits since they were quite substantial and since they were not discussed with anyone in advance. That is what the talk page is for. To avoid getting reverted, it is always a good idea to get other editors on board. This is especially true for substantial changes in pages which are controversial, like this one. Please read the info box on the top of this Discussion page. - Mauco 14:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)