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Revision as of 18:07, 12 May 2020 editDebresser (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors110,467 edits →Merger Discussion: Comment.← Previous edit Revision as of 18:08, 12 May 2020 edit undoDebresser (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers, Template editors110,467 edits →Merger Discussion: +iNext edit →
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* '''Support''' This article is ~2,000 words long, the "under Jordan" article is ~600 words long with only ~200 of those not already being in this article, so a merger would mean this article becomes ~2,200 words. With so much duplication between the two articles, it would serve readers better to have this tidied up. ] (]) 16:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC) * '''Support''' This article is ~2,000 words long, the "under Jordan" article is ~600 words long with only ~200 of those not already being in this article, so a merger would mean this article becomes ~2,200 words. With so much duplication between the two articles, it would serve readers better to have this tidied up. ] (]) 16:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
:::800 out of 2200 words is more than a third, and would be clearly undue weight. ] (]) 17:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC) :::800 out of 2200 words is more than a third, and would be clearly undue weight. ] (]) 17:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' If what bothers you s the title of ] then please don't propose a merge but a rename. If it is indeed a merge you propose, then there is no need to vent your feelings about the article title here. ] (]) 18:07, 12 May 2020 (UTC) *'''Comment''' If what bothers you is the title of ] then please don't propose a merge but a rename. If it is indeed a merge you propose, then there is no need to vent your feelings about the article title here. ] (]) 18:07, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:08, 12 May 2020

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Religions in Shaam

Rebuilding the walls, building a cemetery, closing a gate

Since when is rebuilding the city walls anything to do with Islamization? Here is how a Jewish resident described it: "God aroused the spirit of Suleiman, king of Rumelia and Persia, and he set out to build the walls of Jerusalem, the holy city in the land of Judah. ... And his fame spread across the land for he wrought a great dead." (F.E. Peters, Jerusalem, p480). The walls had been repeatedly destroyed and repaired over the centuries and most recently they had been demolished in 1219 by another Muslim (I wonder if that was Islamization too). Zero 02:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I also can't see anything Islamization about building a Muslim cemetery, unless it displaced a Jewish or Christian cemetery. The book of Birnbaum doesn't read like a history book, more like some sort of personal essay on history that only has a few words on this subject. He doesn't have his facts right either. Pilgrim Arnold van Harff described the cemetery outside the Golden Gate at the end of the previous century, so Suleiman didn't build it (Peters, ibid, p.410–411). There are a large number of Islamic traditions about the gate (actually two adjacent gates in the eastern wall of the Haram, not in the city walls), not only Christian and Jewish traditions. Also Suleiman might have added stonework but he wasn't the one to seal it. Peters quotes a pilgrim from 1350 that the gate was permanently closed and that the Muslims had great reverence for it. Mujir ad-Din in 1496 wrote that the gate was impassible and probably that was for security reasons "in fear of an attack on the Haram and the city by the infidel enemy since the gates lead out into the countryside and there would be little use in leaving them open" (same source). All of these facts from a specialist historian with primary sources show that Birnbaum's narrative is below the bar. Zero 02:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

The sealing of the gate and placing a cemetery in front of the gate which is considered by Chrisitan and Jewish tradition the gate through which Messiah should enter Jerusalem certainly has to do something with Islamization. As you likely know according to theJewish tradition Eliyahu who is supposed to enter through that gate before Messiah, can not pass through cemetery. I did not wanted to enlarge this section by quoting this. However your removal (beside maybe the dating of cemetery was unjustified) There are planty of sources regarding this question, are you claiming that all of them are unreliable?--Tritomex (talk) 23:16, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
"No other gate has been the subject of so many legends (Schiller, pp. 98-108)". I'm aware of the legend, but the gate was closed long before Suleiman's time (maybe 8th century though the Crusaders opened it twice per year) and the cemetery existed before his time too. There was a Christian cemetery there in Crusader times (Boas, Jerusalem in the time of the Crusades, p.182), so it may not have been Muslims who first put graves in the path. I don't know why we should repeat legends from tertiary sources when there are many competing legends and a contemporary historian's word that the real reason for the closure was security related. Zero 07:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
As far as I see there are many reliable sources claiming that Suleiman closed the gate, however if different views exist on this subject it can be added in parallel to the article. I have nothing against this. Also, from reliable sources it is clear that the gate has special religious significance for Christians and Jews and that the sealing of the gate and the establishment of the Muslim cemetery happened during Islamic rule over Jerusalem. That is why it is connected to the subject.--Tritomex (talk) 08:31, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Personally I don't add stuff to Misplaced Pages that I know to be wrong, even if a "reliable source" claims it. That's just my vice. But anyway, your argument is WP:SYNTH. You can't yourself put together the closure and the traditions to make Islamization. You need a reliable source saying that the gate was closed because of the traditions. Zero 12:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
It is not WP:SYNTH, please read the sources which claim religious reasons behind the sealing of gate and placing of the cemetery. Also read read the article Judaization of Jerusalem in almost all of sources Judaization is not directly mentioned by any source for any of concrete actions, but "logically concluded" --Tritomex (talk) 14:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
What sources? You only brought the useless Birnbaum book. Zero 15:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

So now Tritomex ignores the strong contrary evidence by eminent scholars and reinserts not only the useless Birnbaum book but even adds such gems as a travel guide, a book in which a tourist recounts what the guide told him and a book by a philosopher. But my favorite is this book which features a skull and cross-bones and has such incredible insights as "Time is 2-dimensional. It always goes in 1 direction. It doesn't go backwards or sideways, only forward." It should be obvious that multiple violations of policy are involved here. This has gone on long enough, time to prepare the case for a topic ban. Zero 23:39, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

In the earlier section, we also see Tritomex adding the reference "Kister, Traditions in praise of Jerusalem P.186". I challenge Tritomex to prove that he ever consulted such a source. Zero 00:08, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the source Kister, Traditions in praise of Jerusalem P.186" I really made a mistake twisting footnote 61 instead of footnote 64 from Medieval Jerusalem and Islamic Worship: Holy Places, Ceremonies, Pilgrimage by Eldad page 162. The note 61 refers to "Kister, Traditions in praise of Jerusalem P.186". while the note 64 which I twisted by mistake refer to Ibn al Murajja for 25b. This was unintentional mistake as the names of the books cited from Google Books, can not be copy-pasted.--Tritomex (talk) 11:21, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Some notes

This is of course an attack article, taking an historical transformation of a city under new management in the distant past as somehow insidious. No one thinks of writing a The Christianization of Rome or Judaisation of Jebusite Rušalimum Since it is attacking Islam it should be documented from scholarly sources, and not from cheap polemical cant like the politically spun screed from Kedar, out of Ynet. Whatever Kedar had to say is already in the scholarly literature, as my edits show, without the hypocrisy of implying there is something anomalous or fake in Muslim attachment to a city they have lived in for 1,400 years, while taking as normal an identification process being engineered now by another people.Nishidani (talk) 15:51, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Let me look into this matter. Leo1pard (talk) 06:32, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

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Leo1pard (talk) 06:32, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Merger Discussion

Request received to merge articles: Islamization of East Jerusalem under Jordanian occupation into Islamization of Jerusalem; dated: May 2020.

Proposer's Rationale: The article to be merged is already discussed here and there seems to be no reason for an independent existence. In addition, the title is misleading as it stipulates a Jordanian occupation from 1948 to 1967, which is not the case.

Discuss here. Selfstudier (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

  • Oppose. This article is already very long, and covers several centuries worth of history. It has a section dealing with the Islamization of Jerusalem under the Jordanian occupation, but that section has a much more detailed treatment in the separate article. If we adda all that material here, it will create an undue weight issue, so per WP:SPINOFF, it is preferable and acceptable to treat this in its own article. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk)
  • Support This article is ~2,000 words long, the "under Jordan" article is ~600 words long with only ~200 of those not already being in this article, so a merger would mean this article becomes ~2,200 words. With so much duplication between the two articles, it would serve readers better to have this tidied up. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
800 out of 2200 words is more than a third, and would be clearly undue weight. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 17:09, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
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