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Fork ?

I think the Lithuanian aspects should be forked into a separate article. Something like "Wileński Okręg AK" maybe ? --Lysy 07:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

MedCab case

(Part copied from archive)

Mediator: Addhoc. Involved Parties: Legionas, Piotrus, Lysy, Szopen, //Halibutt

Would any other involved parties add their name to the list. Thanks, Addhoc 12:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Disputed Paragraph

I tagged paragraph with POV, maybe more contributors will express their view on this. M.K. 22:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Could we discuss the folowing disputed paragraph:

"Relations between Lithuanians and Poles were strained during most of the interwar period due to conflicts over the Vilnius region and Suvalkai region, areas whose population was a mixture of Poles and Lithuanians. Germans relocated Lithuanian families to Vilnius region from Western parts of Lithuania by force, and this complicated situation. During the war these conflicts resulted in thousands of deaths, as groups on both sides used the opportunities offered by the war to commit violent acts against those they perceived as enemies."

Addhoc 11:33, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty to move this section up to the main medcab section, where we have been discussing this para anyway. As this para is disputed by Sigitas, I think we all will appreciate his reply to why he persists in deleting most of this paragraph; as I think no other editor finds it objectionable.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, do you know if there's a reference specifically for this paragraph? Addhoc 15:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't appear to be there ATM, but I think that the first and third sentences are rather NPOV and semi-obvious, and can be easily referenced with some of our existing refs. The middle sentence about German relocation of L. families should have its own inline citation; plus we may want to note that Poles were deported from Vilnius by the Soviets (, . etc.), further changing the population balance and antagonizing the Polish population. PS. Adhoc, since you said you have recently begun to read about those issues, you may want to see our well referenced article on Treatment_of_Polish_citizens_by_occupiers#Treatment_of_Polish_citizens_under_Soviet_occupation for some relevant information.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:05, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the "thousands of deaths" should not be referenced as well. While obvious to me, this may be not so clear for every reader. --Lysy 16:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Second sentence is supported by Rimantas Zizas. Armijos Krajovos veikla Lietuvoje 1942-1944 metais (Acitivies of Armia Krajowa in Lithuania in 1942-1944). Armija Krajova Lietuvoje, pp. 14-39. A. Bubnys, K. Garšva, E. Gečiauskas, J. Lebionka, J. Saudargienė, R. Zizas (editors). Vilnius – Kaunas, 1995. This paragraph is OK. Sigitas 13:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Addhoc 13:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

After some thinking I have reservations regarding the "thousands of deaths". AK probably killed 4000 locals in "ethnic Lithuanian lands" but many of victims were Belarussians, Jews and Poles. Thousands of Poles would be killed by Germans with or without Lithuanian administration in place. Sonderkommando Ypatingasis burys in Paneriai were killing people not because they "took the opportunities offered by the war to commit crimes" but because they were forced to. Sigitas 09:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, what about the villages burned by Plechavicius men? They weren't forced to kill and murder Poles? Szopen 11:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You should evaluate these data carefully. I know for sure that at least some of the villages burned by Territorial Defence Force were simply invented by Polish propagandists, for example killings in Grauziskes, when Territorial Defence Force didn't even reach this place before being destroyed by AK. Sigitas 15:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard about killings in Graużyszki, as indeed, Plechaviczius men were defeated earlier; however, In Sienkowszczyna (quite near Grauzyszki) Plechaviczius men were burning houses and killing people - probably that's why they were so easily defeated, since AK attacked while the butchers were busy with shooting the civilians. As for Burys being forced to kill Poles, well, they were all volunteers; Szopen 07:00, 27 September 2006 (UTC) EDIT: plus Pawłów, Adamowszczyzna, Tołminów

Witnesses say they there ambushed marching by AK, which probably was tipped by Germans. I don't know much about these events though. Burys' members volunteered to assist germans initially, but not to kill people in paneriai. Most of them only were aknowledged of their role in killings after arrival to Paneriai and had no option to say "no" (Arūnas Bubnys (2004). Vokiečių ir lietuvių saugumo policija (1941–1944) (German and Lithuanian security police: 1941-1944). Vilnius: Lietuvos gyventojų genocido ir rezistencijos tyrimo centras. Retrieved on 2006-06-09.) Sigitas 10:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This is sad, but the same could be probably said of many Germans who did not go to army to murder civilians but then had no choice. I think the times were difficult and we're really often too easily assigning blame. On the other hand thousands of people were murdered in Paneriai and this also requires some justice and we cannot pretend that nobody killed them. --Lysy 11:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it can indeed be said about many people involved in war. We cannot say "used the opportunities offered by the war to commit violent acts against those they perceived as enemies" as this wording would mean voluntary and enthuasiastic participation in killings, when in fact Burys' people volunteered for escorting Jews to Ghettos, not for killings in Paneriai. Sigitas 12:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Exactly what I meant. The "thousands of deaths" seems to be an oversimplification of the rather complex situation and may easily lead to misinterpretations. I'm not sure how to rephrase it in a NPOV, yet meaningful way, however. Maybe just remove this sentence from the lead ? --Lysy 10:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I just wondering is this case is over? M.K. 09:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

So, how about it? M.K. 10:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

What about it? The article is stable, consensus has been reached, as it appears.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the assessment of Piotrus, sorry for not replying earlier - I took the article off my watchlist. Addhoc 16:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

You are very quick. Thank you. Still I would like to ask some questions, Addhoc. Particular contributor Piotrus in one of the articles demonstrated examples of weasel words weasel words. looking in the light of this, I would like about this particular sentence in the article of AK: the nationalist and extremist Lithuanian Vilnija organization claims that. Please observe the ref of nationalist 11 is Polish Gazeta Wyborcza, while extremist also link to Gazeta Wyborcza also. According to Piotrus (evidence provided above) these particular words should be referenced in English. And second note near the word extremist contributor also placed and this EN source From this ref it does not clear is Vilnija is the same as mentioned in this article, or it is another organization (or association !), that context in this article and in provided ref. Some my question - is this EN source is credible in this context, which speaks about AK, not about 20-21st. politics and relations plus is this the same Vilnija? M.K. 17:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

According to Piotrus (evidence provided above) - please be more specific in your attributions, I don't recall saying anything that those refs are invalid.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

let's not use non-English sources for weasel words, shall we? M.K. 17:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you provide a diff for context?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, my compromise suggestion is removing extremist in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid#Extremist, and keeping nationalist, which doesn't appear to be unreasonable. Also, I would suggest rewording to avoid 'claims', have a look at Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid#Claim... Addhoc 11:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'd prefer we rephase it - it is important to note that Vilnija is not only nationalist, it represents extreme end of a political spectrum by being very anti-Polish (several refs I have refer to it as an organization promoting hate...), and thus has very low reliablity (like Stalin Society or, for examples of Polish organizations one should not really cite on encyklopedia, see Radio Maryja or All-Polish Youth). It would be nice if we had an article Vilnija, where reader could see those issues discussed in details.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me guess, these it represents extreme end of a political spectrum are from the Polish nationalists sources, no? M.K. 17:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Gazeta Wyborcza, which is used as the source, is pefectly mainstream. When we get around to expanding on Vilnija, you can analyse my other sources; this article is however no place to describe one fringe organization.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

While Gazeta would be prefect source for section Polish newspapers thoughts over Vilnija or something like this. This is the right place actually discuss the sources, actually; sadly you did not presented any NPOV sources which could back your case, till this moment. M.K. 19:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Really? Would you like to cite a policy that supports your view? And besides, we have at least one English academic one: . How would you like to debunk this one?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Really. neutral outsider suggested to drop this extremist from as you called English academic. forgot? And I ask you once more, does English academic source speaks about same Vilnija as you do, a? M.K. 20:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, so you want to drop 'extremist' because it's suggested we may want to avoid this, and 'nationalist' because it's Polish, so we would remove all refs criticizing Vilnija? I am sorry, but readers need to be warned it's as unreliable source as there is. Or are you suggesting otherwise? I'd be willing to rephrase this sentence, if you'd like to suggest something that would keep the information but formulated it in a more acceptable way?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Answer my question above firstly, then we can continue. M.K. 21:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I did, but for your convinience, here it again. It states it is extremist. And reputable Polish sources note it is nationalist and confirm extremist. Oh, and from the above source it appears it is an anti-semitic organziation as well, thank you for making me catch that, I must have missed it before. While you, on the other hand, have not presented a single shred of evidence that would show Vilnija in a more positive way.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

For the last time I will repeat my question, this time in bold - does English academic source speaks about same Vilnija as you do and article do, a? ' M.K. 23:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what do you want to get by repeating the same question and ignoring my answer. The source states it is extremist. EOT, although I am sure it will not satify you, especially considering how you think something must be done with me, fast. I have also asked for WP:MILHIST peer review and notified the mediator of the case you resurrected, maybe they will have better luck discussing that issue with you them myself.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for not answering my question, I want to understand from there do you know that the source which you provided talks about the same organization. Do you understand the question now? M.K. 00:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think I see now where you are going, although I find it puzzling. If it looks like a cat and meows like a cat, it is a cat. Or: if it is called Vilnija, exhibits behaviour consistent with all refs I could find, particularly ones used in the article, and if we use the Vilnija described by the source as 'extremist' to back up such claims in the article... the answer is: yes, I believe that if the source calls Vilnija extremist, and the article calls Vilnija extremist, and uses the source to reference that claim, than yes, both the article and the book are talking about the same Vilnija. Is this clear enough?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope not clear enough. Your delivered message is irresponsible. And you did not provided any evidence that this English source speaks about same Vilnija as in AK context. This means you basing everything on your own presumptions this could mean – WP:OR. Speaking bout provided source; source:

• Does not speak about Vilnija in Armia Krajowa context
• Does not speak about Vilnija`s provided assessments;
• Does not speak about Armia Krajowa at all;
• In provided source Vilnija mentioned on time in one sentence;
• Lists several organizations - Mažeikių Nafta, LNDP (?) ,UJL (?).
• And similar

Having in mid such context and conducting simple googling you get a lot of “Vilijas” in internet , such as – ; this particular Vilnija is interesting because it is business incubator organization - , maybe author not random chosen to mentioned Mažeikių nafta? Maybe these are same Vilnija too? So, in the light of these remarks, I did not find any hint, which could lead to combining in source provided association Vilnija with organization Vilnija, which conducted assessments of AK crimes. This could spark strong reaction from these organizations due to your used strong word, which is without reasonable support. M.K. 22:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

M.K, I find your defence of Vilnija on such thin 'legal' grounds rather discouraging. There are not many Vilnija's, and there is only one involved in Lithuanian politics as far as I know. If you have sources to show otherwise, please do, but the existence of a business incubator with the same name does not make it likely it is that organization which is talked about in the book about politics. Anyway, per peer review suggestions, I think we should split the Lithuanian section off this article and leave an uncontroversial summary here; then we can worry about the controversies and details in the subarticle.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Armia Krajowa

This article is being reviewed at WP:GA/R for possible delisting. M.K. 23:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

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