Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 06:15, 28 May 2020 editSlimVirgin (talk \| contribs)172,064 edits →part of the intro is not good ← Previous edit		Revision as of 04:25, 29 May 2020 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk \| contribs)Bots, Template editors2,296,120 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:The Protocols of the Elders of Zion/Archive 10) (botNext edit →
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	Bern Process original sources https://digifindingaids.cjh.org/?pID=477923#a23		Bern Process original sources https://digifindingaids.cjh.org/?pID=477923#a23
	<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:19, 28 November 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->		<!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:19, 28 November 2019 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

	== Merge from ] ==

	This person is of no interest other than his association with the Protocols; let's clean up another of one Ludvikus' messes. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 15:48, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
	: Seems reasonable. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:58, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

	== Misleading inf in infobox re plagiarisation ==

	I came to this article knowing nothing about the ''Protocols'' except it was an antisemitic hoax. I was astonished, and somewhat shocked, to find that the document had originally been written by Alexander Dumas, who I knew mostly from ''The Three Musketeers''. I had had no idea he was antisemitic. Of course, when I read the article, I found that the infobox was completely misleading: what had been plagiarised was a scene about ‘the affair of the diamond necklace’. I do not think it likely that I am the only person who was misled in this way. I ''do'' think it likely that many people never read beyond the infobox and the introduction. So, many people will leave this article thinking that the author of ''The Three Musketeers'' wrote ''The Protocols of the Elders of Zion''.

	The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to inform its readers, not to mislead them.
	] (]) 09:32, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

	: I agree with you and support your change. Actually the main source, Joly, doesn't mention Jews at all. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 11:44, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

	== Umberto Eco ==		== Umberto Eco ==

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Q: Why does the first sentence of the article say the Protocols is fraudulent? Aren't Misplaced Pages articles supposed to be neutral?

A: Misplaced Pages articles are absolutely required to maintain a neutral point of view. It has long been established that this work is fraudulent; its author(s) plagiarized a work of fiction, changing the original, Gentile characters into the secret leaders of a Jewish conspiracy. That plagiarized, fictional material is presented as though it were fact. That constitutes a literary fraud.

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Q: Why not let the reader decide for him- or herself whether the document is fraudulent or not? Doesn't drawing conclusions constitute WP:OR?

A: The article does not draw any conclusions; journalists drew the conclusion in 1921, and numerous scholars have reaffirmed it since then. It is not original research to state that the the Protocols is fraudulent; it is a well-established scholarly fact, as documented and sourced in the article. Numerous similar examples exist throughout Misplaced Pages; for example, the Hitler diaries are demonstrably fake, and the WP article says so—and sources it.

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A: It is difficult to answer why anyone still believes that the Protocols is a real document, other than to say that some people have beliefs that are simply immune to facts (Exhibit A: Holocaust deniers). To those whose minds are made up, it makes no difference that the Protocols have been debunked countless times—or that so much incriminating Holocaust evidence survives that a dozen museums can't hold it all.

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missing references

Michael Hagemeister, https://en.wikipedia.org/Michael_Hagemeister Hanna Arendt, Origins of Totaliarism, https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Origins_of_Totalitarianism Bern Process original sources https://digifindingaids.cjh.org/?pID=477923#a23 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.55.66.147 (talk) 19:19, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Umberto Eco

It is weird that Eco's writings on this have been reduced not to The Prague Cemetery but to Foucault's Pendulum. In the latter, the Protocols are just a minor aspect in a vast construct of conspiracies. The former is about the Protocols, narrated by the person who faked them. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I've restored some information from an earlier version of the article. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

part of the intro is not good

There is "According to the claims made by some of its publishers, the Protocols are the minutes of 24 sessions of a meeting of the "twelve tribes of Israel", during which Jewish leaders discussed their goal..." There is no mention in the Protocols of "twelve tribes", though "our tribe" (singular) appears. The source attributes these claims to the Protocols, not to "some of its publishers", so it is wrong, and it is also wrong that the "congress" was "led by a Grand Rabbi" as no rabbi is mentioned in the Protocols at all. Some publisher may indeed have made these claims, but we don't have a source attributing them to a publisher. Zero 06:11, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Zero, I don't have time to fix this at the moment. If the edits were misleading, feel free to revert and I might redo some other time. SarahSV 06:15, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

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