Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:33, 29 December 2006

Jewish history Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Fanya Baron

Hey Historians, I am wondering about what evidence you have that Fanya Baron was jewish... Was she a practicing jew? I ask because I found it very difficult to research her for the Fanya Baron article and would love any other material if you have any. Or are you just going by the name alone? Cheers, Anna AnAn 08:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

About terror

The section is severely POV. This material is already covered in Jewish Bolshevism in much more comprehensive and netral manner. ←Humus sapiens 10:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there any factual objections, is Winston Churchill's article factually incorrect? Please be more specific.--Hillock65 10:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not engage in revert wars but discuss your objectins first, as it is civilized to do. Thank you.--Hillock65 11:03, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I did. Read Jewish Bolshevism: "Even Winston Churchill briefly joined this bandwagon, blaming the Russian Revolution on Jews." Churchill was a politician, not a historian. To present these allegations as fact is POV. ←Humus sapiens 11:07, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Churchill's article is there to illustrate the point. Jewish Bolsheviks, particularly from Ukraine as Trotsky for example did participate in revolutionary terror, what is factually incorrect? It is a well known fact and this page is not only for listing atrocities against Jews but to illuminate all spheres of Jewish life in Ukraine, even as unsavoury as the atrocities allegations. Please be advised, that removing whole sections is considered a vandalism and will be reported. Please see Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. If something is POV in your opinion, make changes, additions - I wouldn't even object to tagging this page but blanking completely whole sections about red terror and famine atrocities is a different matter. These things should be discussed before being removed completely.--Hillock65 11:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

What is a well-known fact, that Jews starved Ukrainians? Of course Jews were accused in all kinds of "terror" and conspiracies, but we should rely on academic research. What sources are you using? ←Humus sapiens 11:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you realize that you are adding political and not scholarly material? References please. ←Humus sapiens 11:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Churchil's article is to illustrate Jewish participation in the revolutionary terror and several allegations were made about Lazar Kaganovich's role in the famine. If these need additional sources, I will provide them, but please do not delete because you don't like them, you may tag them as needing citations and those will be provided in due time.--Hillock65 11:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Churchill's article illustrates his political opinion, and nothing more. Please stop this political propaganda. ←Humus sapiens 11:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

And so what? It cannot be used to illustrate the point? Since when? Please stop revert war! If you disagree with facts and allegations, these can be provided and mutually agreed version of Jewish participation in the red terror can be worked out. This is not the page to list Jewish victims, but about all spheres of Jewish life. You do not own this page and other people have the right to express therir ideas. Discuss, add, modify but do not erase completely, this is not civil and counterproductive. I have warned you several times already not to do en masse deletions. --Hillock65 11:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It takes two to edit war. The material is already covered in Jewish Bolshevism. Your sources are a single article written by a British politician (you picked it up from patriot.dk, a hate site), and typical antisemitic allegations (like "Jewish atrocities" - backed by a street poster). See WP:RS. ←Humus sapiens 02:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

What are yuor objections, to the article by Winston Churchil or the where it is from. If there are inaccuracies in the article I can find it on a site that will be more neutral. As far as I am concerned, the facts are correct and that's what matters. And the picture of a newspaper article that Winston Churchil wrote. I don't see why it can't be used, and cannot understand you reasons. Each time there is a new one, either he is not a historian, this is from a wrong site and it's been covered. Fine, I am not elaborating on atrocities, but mentioning that Jews from Ukraine participated in terror is quite warranted. This sit is about Jews from Ukraine and about all events where they participated. I do not elaborate and do not clash with another article but merely mention about the fact and illustrate it. --Hillock65 02:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not insert extreme minority opinions from unreliable sources again; this is a violation of policy. Jayjg 03:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Please do not engage in revert war. You do not own this article, I do not express my opinion but those supported by credible sources. Check before you jump to conclusions. Sir Winston Churchil and Robert Conquest did not engage in any conspiracies! Please check Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. Even if you disagree, assinging labels and accusations will not help reach a neutral version. Thank you.--Hillock65 04:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

"Please do not engage in revert war. You do not own this article". LOL! Please see irony. Jayjg 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I have utmost respect for W. Churchill as a political leader, but he is not an expert on the History of the Jews in Ukraine. There is a difference between a politician and a scholar.

A street poster may serve as an example for Antisemitism article but not a good source for History of the Jews in Ukraine.

The accusation that the Jews caused the Holodomor is a typical antisemitic canard. The logic "Kaganovich was there, therefore Jews caused it" is ridiculous. Molotov, Postyshev are not even Jewish.

"Jews from Ukraine participated in terror" - together with Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Georgians, Latvians, etc. What is so notable about it? BTW, the terror was against Jews as well. Jewish Bolsheviks, the link you repeatedly removed, already describes this in detail. ←Humus sapiens 04:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

He doesn't need to be an expert. He is a famous statesmand and polition, his thoughts are relevant and worth attention. One does not need to be a scholar to be used as a reference. For the second time, it is not a street poster, but a photo of a newspaper article he wrote. It is relevant as these are the thoughts on the subject of one of the world's greatest politians. Please be careful with your standard accusations of antisemetism, apart from bad faith, this is slanderous and unfounded. I give sources, for example a leading historian and scholar on the subject Robert Conquest. It is his opinion that Kaganovich is responsible. No one assigns blame to all Jews, do not manipulate the truth. It merely states that some Jews participated in genocide and Red Terror. These are verified by facts. What is notable is that apart from being in the usual role of a victim, you also will have to get used to the idea that some Jews were also mass murderers. I ask you again, please do not engage in revert war, it will not help - problems are decided in a discussion prefferably without putting commonplace labels. Thank you.--Hillock65 04:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, actually, he does need to be a recognized expert in the subject, not a politician writing half a century ago, and being misused by you. Jayjg 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Why didn't you write anything about "Georgian terror" or "Georgian atrocities"? Josef Stalin was, after all, the Soviet leader at that time and he was the one who determined the policy. There were other Georgians among the communist leadership, notably Lavrentiy Beria. Beit Or 07:42, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a fact that many Jews supported the Soviet Union communist regime, partcularly in the early period - I agree with Hillock65 that this should be reflected in the article, albeit Humus have a point that we need to be careful about NPOV.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

How do you define "many"? And then, how do you know it? I'm not aware of any polls conducted among Ukrainian Jews at that time. Beit Or 21:26, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

How do I know it? Jewish Bolshevism, and good refs. Particulary, a quick search yelds this. I have asked a specialist for more refs, Ukraine is not my specialization.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  12:58, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

"Many Bolsheviks were Jews" is not the same as "many Jews were Bolsheviks". In the link you have provided, you have omitted the crucial word "assimilated". At the time, very few Ukrainian Jews were assimilated. Beit Or 14:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Um, I don't see what assimilation has to do with that issue. Here is another useful ref from an Isreali book, nothing less, that notes that many Jews cooperated with the Soviet regime. And please note nobody here (I hope) is trying to assing blame: it was a reasonable course of action for them then, and for us it should be nothing more (or less) then stating a historical fact.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It is the height of absurdity, and verging on (if not crossing over the line into) antisemitism, to create a section titled "Jewish atrocties during the Ukrainian famine", in which the actions of one ethnic Jew and two non-Jews are referred to. There were literally millions of Jews living in the Ukraine at the time; this kind of abuse of marginal sources is disturbing. Jayjg 22:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Still not seeing any response on the Talk: page from the many reverters. Is anyone seriously suggesting that an 87 year old article in the Sunday Herald is a "reliable source" for this extreme POV? Even if written by Winston Churchill? Jayjg 19:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Why would an 87 year old article not be a reliable source for an 87 year old event? Is that the only objection you can think of? And what about Kaganovich, the article specifically said that no one speads the blame on all Jews but at the same time horrendous crimes of individuals sould not be overlooked either? What's the objection there? Or is it a pretext to get rid of it altogether?--Hillock65 00:25, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

This material is covered in Jewish Bolshevism in a NPOV manner. Do not try to turn this section/article into a POV fork. ←Humus sapiens 01:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

protection

I've protected this page to what I see as the less controversial version. I encourage various editors to work towards consensus here on the talk page. As you reach agreement on individual points, an admin (either me or someone else) can include them in the regular page. Protection can be lifted at some later point. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bucketsofg (talk • contribs) 19:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

consensus on kievian letter?

In the first paragraph of the medieval section, there is one sentence that is different between the two versions (in italics, below):

Jewish settlements in Ukraine can be traced back to the 8th century. Possibly, Jewish refugees from the Byzantine Empire, Persia, and Mesopotamia, fleeing from persecution by Christians throughout Europe, settled in the Khazar Khaganate. The first written document, Kievian Letter, that acknowleges existance of jewish community in Kievan Rus' is dated by early 10th century (or possibly 11th century).

Is there consensus as to whether or not to include this? Or how to edit the whole paragraph to make it acceptable to everyone? Bucketsofg 19:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• Unassessed Jewish history-related articles
• Unknown-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles