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Revision as of 17:30, 17 August 2020 editRjensen (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers227,019 edits →Proposed spinoff of two sections to new article: new section← Previous edit Revision as of 18:02, 19 November 2020 edit undo2a00:1028:83d8:3e3e:c4b1:1c4e:cd0:af90 (talk) →Germany: new sectionNext edit →
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I propose moving sections 4 and 6 (about Stalin and Eastern Europe) to a new article. They explain why the Marshall Plan did not occur in eastern Europe and have nothing to say about the plan itself, or what actually did happen. ] (]) 17:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC) I propose moving sections 4 and 6 (about Stalin and Eastern Europe) to a new article. They explain why the Marshall Plan did not occur in eastern Europe and have nothing to say about the plan itself, or what actually did happen. ] (]) 17:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

== Germany ==

West Germany cumulative: $1,448 mil.
The proportion of Marshall Plan loans versus Marshall Plan grants was roughly 15% to 85% for both the UK and France…
In the 1953 Debt agreement, the amount of Marshall plan aid that Germany was to repay was reduced to less than US$1 billion. This made the proportion of loans versus grants to Germany similar to that of France and the UK.

What?

] (]) 18:02, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:02, 19 November 2020

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Public opinion data on the Marshall Plan

Eliannalandau (talk)

Notes

References

  1. Lukacs, John. “A LOOK AT . . . THE LEGACY OF THE MARSHALL PLAN.” The Washington Post, WP Company, 25 May 1997, www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1997/05/25/a-look-at-the-legacy-of-the-marshall-plan/47b5b44c-e1eb-4c68-bd46-5a29c5c76c73/?utm_term=.b758f5822e5f.
  2. Machado, Barry. “Selling the Marshall Plan.” The George C. Marshall Foundation, George C Marshall Foundation, marshallfoundation.org/library/digital-archive/selling-the-marshall-plan-chapter-2-monograph-collection/.
  3. National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago. Foreign Affairs Survey, Jun, 1952 . USNORC.520327.R16. National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago . Cornell University, Ithaca, NY: Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, iPOLL , accessed Oct-13-2017.
  4. National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago. Foreign Affairs Survey, Mar, 1949 . USNORC.490164.R11. National Opinion Research Center, University of Chicago . Cornell University, Ithaca, NY: Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, iPOLL , accessed Oct-13-2017.
  5. Gallup Organization. Gallup Poll, Feb, 1948 . USGALLUP.030348.RT07C. Gallup Organization . Cornell University, Ithaca, NY: Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, iPOLL , accessed Oct-13-2017.
  6. Gallup Organization. Gallup Poll (AIPO), Sep, 1941 . USGALLUP.41-248.QKT09. Gallup Organization . Cornell University, Ithaca, NY: Roper Center for Public Opinion Research, iPOLL , accessed Oct-13-2017

Non-Neutral Language

WP:NOTFORUM. Please be much more specific in the sense of "change X to Y using Z source" or "add X using Y source". There's nothing we can do with this lengthy monologue. Misplaced Pages summarises reliable independent secondary sources and is not a publisher of original thought. Guy (help!) 23:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nonesensical Metaphors

How can Washington realize things? Was it members of the Truman administration? Who?

By July 1947 Washington realized that economic recovery in Europe could not go forward without the reconstruction of the German industrial base, deciding that an "orderly, prosperous Europe requires the economic contributions of a stable and productive Germany." In addition, the strength of Moscow-controlled communist parties in France and Italy worried Washington.

Only One Side Presented

Marshall's direct statement is there.

After the adjournment of the Moscow conference following six weeks of failed discussions with the Soviets regarding a potential German reconstruction, the United States concluded that a solution could not wait any longer. To clarify the American position, a major address by Secretary of State George Marshall was planned. Marshall gave the address at Harvard University on June 5, 1947. He offered American aid to promote European recovery and reconstruction. The speech described the dysfunction of the European economy and presented a rationale for US aid. The modern system of the division of labor upon which the exchange of products is based is in danger of breaking down. ... Aside from the demoralizing effect on the world at large and the possibilities of disturbances arising as a result of the desperation of the people concerned, the consequences to the economy of the United States should be apparent to all. It is logical that the United States should do whatever it is able to do to assist in the return of normal economic health to the world, without which there can be no political stability and no assured peace. Our policy is not directed against any country, but against hunger, poverty, desperation and chaos. Any government that is willing to assist in recovery will find full co-operation on the part of the United States. Its purpose should be the revival of a working economy in the world so as to permit the emergence of political and social conditions in which free institutions can exist.

However, Molotov's direct statement is missing. Therefore, it favors one side over the other.

This is Molotov's statement:

Therefore, the question of American economic aid of which indeed nothing definite is yet known has now provided an occasion for the British and French Governments to seek the creation of a new organization standing over and above the countries of Europe and interfering in their internal affairs down to determining the line of development to be followed by the main branches of industry in these countries. Furthermore, Great Britain and France together with the countries close to them are laying claim to a predominant position in this organization or in the so-called “Steering Committee” for Europe as it has been named in the British draft.

Verbal reservations are now being made to the effect that this organization would allegedly not intervene in the internal affairs of these states and would not encroach upon their sovereignty. But it clearly follows from the tasks which are being set before this organization or before the “Steering Committee” that the European countries would find themselves placed under control and would lose their former economic and national independence because it so pleases certain strong powers


Shouldn't the side which opposed the Marshall plan also be included with the side that supported it? Or else, it paints the USSR as ridiculously evil.

Highly opinionated language

Along with the UN, many humanist ideas were circulating over the five-year period that ensued its formation. The World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) date from this time. One of the ideas proposed in 1947 at the United Nations Conference on Trade and Employment (UNCTE) was the International Trade Organization (ITO). The GATT was first conceived around that time too.

Why is the IMF and the World Bank described as humanist? Why is GATT described as humanist? What is a humanist idea?

Mind-reading

Stalin opinions

How do you know what Stalin thought? How did we know that he changed his outlook?

Stalin only changed his outlook when he learned that (a) credit would only be extended under conditions of economic cooperation and, (b) aid would also be extended to Germany in total, an eventuality which Stalin thought would hamper the Soviets' ability to exercise influence in western Germany.

Manuevering

Initially, Stalin maneuvered to kill the Plan, or at least hamper it by means of destructive participation in the Paris talks regarding conditions. He quickly realized, however, that this would be impossible after Molotov reported—following his arrival in Paris in July 1947—that conditions for the credit were non-negotiable. Looming as just as large a concern was the Czechoslovak eagerness to accept the aid, as well as indications of a similar Polish attitude.

  1. "Kill the plan OR at least hamper it by means of destructive participation" sounds extensively like an opinion or speculation.
  2. How do you know he quickly "realized" something.
  3. "Looming as a large concern" for whom?

Factually incorrect assertions

Economic Recovery

Most of Europe's economies were recovering slowly, as unemployment and food shortages led to strikes and unrest in several nations. Agricultural production was 83% of 1938 levels, industrial production was 88%, and exports 59%

This is misleading because it varied from place to place. European Economic Growth Post World War II.png

References

  1. De Long, J. Bradford; Eichengreen, Barry (1991-11-01). "The Marshall Plan: History's Most Successful Structural Adjustment Program". {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
Conflicting Statements

The United States was already spending a great deal to help Europe recover. Over $14 billion was spent or loaned during the postwar period through the end of 1947 and is not counted as part of the Marshall Plan. Much of this aid was designed to restore infrastructure and help refugees. Britain, for example, received an emergency loan of $3.75 billion.

Earlier in the document, it mentions $12 billion and now it is $14 billion? Which one is the real number?

Anti-Communist Bias

Why is a communist insurgency a threat? It should be a communist insurgency fighting in Greece. Also, it is Truman's opinion that capitalists are "free" and communists are not free.

With a communist, although non-Soviet, insurgency threatening Greece, and Britain financially unable to continue its aid, the President announced his Truman Doctrine on March 12, 1947, "to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures", with an aid request for consideration and decision, concerning Greece and Turkey.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Openly-admitted Bias by Misplaced Pages editor

A wikipedia editor says,"Something about history being written by winners" AKA that wikipedia's policy is having pro-western bias. Therefore, not being neutral or trustworthy. http://archive.is/wip/KNOPV — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eshaparvathi (talk • contribs) 01:44, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages follows the reliable sources. If the majority of historical sources are pro-western on this topic, so too will be the Misplaced Pages article. - MrOllie (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
You have not cited "a majority" of historical sources. The majority of the article cites ONE source. https://en.wikipedia.org/Marshall_Plan#cite_ref-wettig116_48-0 10 times. If a source is biased, it is by definition NOT reliable. Eshaparvathi (talk) 03:30, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
You're welcome to that opinion, but on Misplaced Pages we have established guidelines for that constitutes a reliable source, which you can find at Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources. Sources are specifically not required to be unbiased. - MrOllie (talk) 03:45, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
all Misplaced Pages editors have their own opinions on the topics they write about. The SUGGESTED goal is to edit AS IF they were neutral. The POLICY is that the article covers both/all sides when the RS are in disagreement. Rjensen (talk) 04:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
If someone has a problem with a page like this using the same source 10 times, whether "biased" or not (hint: every source is biased. period.) then the person objecting should go ahead and do some work to update the sources themselves. Why complain? Fix if you don't like it. Isn't that the point here? --gobears87 (talk) 21:10, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposed spinoff of two sections to new article

I propose moving sections 4 and 6 (about Stalin and Eastern Europe) to a new article. They explain why the Marshall Plan did not occur in eastern Europe and have nothing to say about the plan itself, or what actually did happen. Rjensen (talk) 17:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Germany

West Germany cumulative: $1,448 mil.

The proportion of Marshall Plan loans versus Marshall Plan grants was roughly 15% to 85% for both the UK and France… In the 1953 Debt agreement, the amount of Marshall plan aid that Germany was to repay was reduced to less than US$1 billion. This made the proportion of loans versus grants to Germany similar to that of France and the UK.

What?

2A00:1028:83D8:3E3E:C4B1:1C4E:CD0:AF90 (talk) 18:02, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

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