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Iraq

Did you see the June poll? It occured after discussion had begun and showed a drastically different result than the May poll, with 25-4 in favor of including it on the basis that the WoT is a specific campaign which the Iraq war was specifically begun under. But this poll wasnt binding and wasnt a consensus either. That was reached after discussion, and posted later that month . You participated in discussion then, and you know what happened. This whole act thats being put on that no consensus was reached is pretty disheartening. While I can understand newcomers not being aware, someone who was involved in discussion should know better. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

No, because, again, a something is either part of a calculated campaign or it is not. There isnt anything to debate. The only issue that needs debating is how to present this information, and ultimately that was what the consensus decided. Please take a look at Publicus's latest statement which explains that. ~Rangeley (talk) 23:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Mediation

I'll be contacting those users who haven't responded by tomorrow to see why. For now, I'm happy for you to make that edit, but, if you're reverted, please don't revert back (I'm sure you know this, but still). If a reversion does take place, we can take this as a sign that your change was opposed by someone. Martinp23 19:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

mediation

i've begun the arbitration process to the best of my ability. it's dissapointing to see that you are unable to work in good faith on this matter. to whatever degree you are associated with the previous two auto-reverters notwithstanding, the precident set by your behavior merits 3RR. 67.175.216.90 23:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

this business of following my contrib log from article to artcle to revert my contribs out of spite constitutes WP:NPA violation. i wish there was a reasonable explaination for your aggression or why its fixated on me, but whatever it is, your abusive behavior is not helpfull. 67.175.216.90 00:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Your edits are almost indistinguishable from vandalism; that's why they were reverted. csloat 00:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

repeatedly asserting this does not make it so. this - your willingness to attack and mischaraterize - is why mediation is nessesary 67.175.216.90 01:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You are the one violating the rules. If you have an argument as to what the hell piss christ has to do with the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, you should have told someone what it is. csloat 01:35, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

again, assertion does not make truth. you can refuse to aknowlege my argument, but by refusing to aknowlege that i made an argument, you've stepped outside of any reasonable congress which might occur. my argument is still there, for others to r4eview ad judge for themselves. this is why mediation is the nessesary next step to resolve this.

and my argument's merits notwithstanding, your "stalking" behavior constitutes WP:NPA and there's no excuse for it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.175.216.90 (talk) 02:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Just leave me alone, alright? I'm not "stalking" you. Your edits were borderline vandalism and I reverted them. I saw an unexplained edit by you on another article so I reverted that too; you explained yourself there so I left it alone after you reverted me. However, you are flat wrong about the Quran article and you have refused to defend your changes. Your 3RR violation was reported and you will most likely be blocked for it; either way, your "piss christ" edit to the quran article will continue to be deleted by myself and others unless you can explain it in a manner that is backed up by reliable sources and makes encyclopedic sense. Now stop insulting me. csloat 02:15, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Help needed

I recall you've been an active editor on Saddam Hussein. As you can imagine, the page is turning into an utter mess. If you can help monitor the recent changes, your help will be quite useful. Happy New Year, 172 | Talk 05:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - I'll take a look. I'm not too surprised that his execution has led to problems on the page; hopefully in a few weeks they can be settled and sorted out. csloat 05:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Piss Christ

When I wrote the following, I thought you were in favor of the Piss Christ link to the Qu'ran article, (you are against it right? ...the unsigned comments threw me off.) Let me know if there's anything more I can do. User:Pedant 11:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am against it. The anon who is making trouble about this refuses to sign his comments, adding to the confusion. My argument is that the only legitimate way this can be added is if there is a reliable source connecting the two and the anon can write a paragraph explaining the connection in a manner that is not WP:NOR. Happy new year! csloat 21:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree there is a connection between the two controversial desecrations, but there are significant dissimilarities.

Remember, too, that consensus is a fundamental core policy of Misplaced Pages, a policy which Jimbo Wales has insisted is, and will be, an unshakeable inherent part of Misplaced Pages.

The very idea that that the controversy exists, and that there is not an agreement on whether to link Piss Christ to 2005 Qur'an desecration shows clearly that there is not a consensus, and I believe it unlikely that a consensus could be reached such that an edit including Piss Christ as a cross reference would be a stable edit.

Edit wars of this type are generally unending: Neither including nor excluding the link is likely to be approved widely enough to become a clear consensus.

However, I think the issue could be satisfactorily resolved by connecting the two articles via an indisputably relevant cross ref, such as Desecration. That article could use some expansion anyway... so how would you feel about writing a few paragraphs there about notable desecrations and reactions to them? I am certain nobody would object to linking to the article Desecration from both Piss Christ and Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005, and anyone should approve of an expansion to the article.

The deal is that the 2005 Qur'an desecration is an act related to the torture and deliberate humiliation of a prisoner, and Piss Christ is a work of art by an artist, intending to make an artistic statement, to provoke a reaction in the context of what is and what is not art, what is allowable as art, the meaning of the concept of sacred... an attempt in other words to explore the concept of sanctity and the concept of what is permissable as artistic expression.

To engender more communication and understanding in other words.

This is a marked contrast to the intentional mis-use of a sacred symbol as a means to harm another human (assuming that it was not as has been claimed simply an accident in which case there is still marked dissimilarity: accidental vs intentional desecration) in the Qu'ran incident. One may say that art is intended to advance human culture and knowledge, but that torture and intentional humiliation have the opposite intent and/or effect.

In short, the two are dissimilar enough that I am sure that you can understand that some, or many, may object to a direct cross-reference.

Yet the two do share a distinct connection, in that there were very strong worldwide reactions to both.

Those who do not think the two are directly related might not, on the other hand, object to linking to both articles from a more generic article, and/or to placing both articles, as well as the Desecration article into a category such as Category:Desecration. Bear in mind though, that a category is very likely to be deleted if it does not have at least one parent category (ie, the category itself is a member of another category) and several articles as members of that category.

I know that once one has entered into an argument, in which they were certain they were right, that it is often hard to see the other side, but that is precisely what an advocate does, or attempts to do. If you ask me for help, the first thing I do is to try to understand both sides, and to express those sides to those who may not have seen the other side.

If you like, I would be happy to express your side to those who disagree with you, but it seems that they, and you, both already have a pretty clear understanding of the issues. It seems to me that it is simply the case that there is a disagreement over the inclusion or exclusion of the link, and that no consensus is likely regardless of how long the discussion continues.

I feel it would be fruitless, and a waste of community resources (your time and their time could be better spent working together) to attempt to reach a consensus for inclusion of a direct cross-reference between the 2 articles in question.

I hope that I have been of some help to you with this, and I welcome further discusssion, or questions. Feel free to contact me any time for any reason. Thanks for your efforts and contributions as well. User:Pedant 10:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Please do not post offensive words onto articles or talkpages.Thankyou.Nadirali 03:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

As user of anti-vandal tool,I ocasionally volenteer to filter recent changes.That is the program I use is automatically set to search for bad words.It may have picked up a word you posted and automatically informed me.I may have made a mistake and I apologise for that.Regards.Nadirali 04:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Mediation update

Sorry to talk page spam - I'm just informing you that we now have two items for discussion on the mediation page. Thanks, Martinp23 14:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

For you

Keep your head up, keep breathing, take the high road and believe in yourself. I believe in you. :) -- User:RyanFreisling @ 01:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)