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Revision as of 23:31, 8 January 2007

Please use proper WP:RM procedure if you consider renaming this article. --Lysy 14:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

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Requested move

Mikołaj of Ryńsk → Nikolaus von Renys — unsourced Polish POV, German name is sourced  Matthead      O       18:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes

1. Support as nominator  Matthead      O       18:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

1. Oppose: "Mikołaj z Ryńska" - 12,100 Google hits (no, only 527 results, starting with mirrors of the Polish Wiki article, Matthead), "Nikolaus von Renys" - only 33 Google hits. --Lysy 19:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Most common name.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Nikolaus von Renys is closely related to the Lizard Union, which was founded by him in 1397 as recorded in German language by the bishopric in Culm, see Talk:Nikolaus von Renys and Talk:Lizard Union for sources, and for a more appropriate version of the article. Apparently it is attempted to portray open German language opposition to the Teutonic Order within Prussia to some secret heroic Polish resistance movement and martyrdom of its leader, without citing any sources except a dubios szlachta coat of Arms that was used by over 200 families with different Polish names, among them Ryński, but no source that it was actually used by a 14th/15th century person called "pl:Mikołaj z Ryńska". -- Matthead      O       19:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Google counts are always interesting. Lysy (talk · contribs) claimed the following

• Mikołaj z Ryńska 12,100 Google hits
• Nikolaus von Renys only 33 Google hits

Now, when I use it, the first links yields only 527 results for "Mikołaj z Ryńska". How come? Hanlon's razor suggests why. But then, in the second link for "Nikolaus von Renys", Google is set to Polish language .... okay, Hanlon's razor again. Anyway, apparently some advise in the proper use of Google is needed here. First, the full name should be quoted which reduces the hits to

• "Mikołaj z Ryńska" only 93 ...
• "Mikołaj z Ryńska" -wikipedia and only 80 when mirrors of the Polish Misplaced Pages article are excluded

Okay, this counts the use of the Polish name in Poland, hardly surprising. How about the name that Lysy actually wants to use in the English Misplaced Pages? Let's see:

• "Mikołaj of Ryńsk" -wikipedia yields exactly 1 result, from a webpage in Poland that proves its reliability by stating "in 1939(sic!), through the setting up of the Salamander Society by Mikołaj of Ryńsk."

So, the 12,100 results that Lysy claim quickly melt down to one 1 underwhelming webpage. Hanlon's razor is worn out by some Wiki editors that try to use Google counts to prove their point, e.g. by not excluding the names of streets and hotels etc. to make their point about the proper name of a Polish king or not excluding counts for a propaganda film to decide the name of a battle. -- Matthead      O       02:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

• "Nikolaus von Renys" -wikipedia 12 in German and English
• "Nickel von Renys" -wikipedia 3 in German for the nickname
• "Nikolaus von Renis" -wikipedia 3 in English and Italian

Nicholas von Renys

Let's remember Misplaced Pages's naming conventions: Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Names of Misplaced Pages articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.

Use English words: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.

Well... all the google searches above, regardless of their particular merits and accuracy, give results in German and Polish, making them irrelevant for the specific purpose of naming this article.

Instead, we should try to find what form do English-language publications and sites give to this knight's name. So far, I have found the following:

• Tannenberg 1410: Disaster for the Teutonic Knights, by Stephen Turnbull, Osprey Publishing, Oxford, 2003, ISBN 1-84176-561-9, p. 79 & 96 (index):

Wirsberg's fellow conspirator, Nicholas von Renys, was beheaded without trial, but A secular knight of Polish descent, otherwise known as Mikolaj Rinski of the clan Rogala...

Renys, Nicholas von 79

And regarding the Banderia Prutenorum, in Banners from the Battle of Tannenberg we find:

Two stories are told of the fate of Nicholaus von Renys...

Matthead mentioned below this site: Chelmno flag in the Banderia Prutenorum Manuscript, where a certain Chrystian Kretowicz quite naturally translates the text using Nicholas:

Others say it is not true Nicholas was murdered...

These say Nicholas was brave...

Personally, I like Nicholas von Renys: it's simple, it's clear, it's English :-)
Best regads, Evv 08:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Banderia Prutenorum calls him Nicolaus dictus Niksz, nacione Swewus

An Italian site sells figures of Teutonic Knights, including one with the banner of Nikolaus von Renis, made after the Banderia Prutenorum record of the Battle of Grunwald flags and events, with Nicolaus' entry on Page 5v

Banderium civitatis Culmensis, quod ferebat Nicolaus dictus Niksz, nacione Swewus, vexillifer Culmensis, quem magister Prussie postea, quasi parum fideliter egisset, capite dampnavit; cuius ductores erant Janussius Orzechowsky et Cunradus de Ropkow milites.

Habet autem verior assercio aliorum, quod prefatus Nicolaus alias Niksz, miles Swewus et Culmensis banderii vexillifer, non fuit a magistro Prussie Henrico de Plawyen, qui Vlrico de Junigen in prelio magno occiso successerat, ob aliquod crimen perfidie occisus — erat enim miles et heroicus et in armis magni precii — sed cum vidisset sue partis cladem seque miserabiliter omnibus spoliatum et captum, licenciam adeundi Wladislaum Polonie regem et alloquendi illum supliciter optinuit. Qua a clemente rege faciliter optenta peciit sibi banderium, quod gerebat, monstrari. Quo altero die monstrato, ad conspectum illius illo amplexato corruens expiravit ibidetnque rege mandante solo obrutus est9. Sub quo erant terre et .

It has to be noted that the author, Jan Długosz, was a Polish diplomat, and anything but neutral. Decades after the battle, he described the captured banners of the Knights, but the records of the events and persons were based upon hearsay. He renders German names in quite unusual ways (Henrico de Plawyen, Vlrico de Junigen), unlike Polish ones. Anyway, even he calls Nikolaus Nicolaus, and not Mikolaj. The nickname Nickel is rendered as Niksz, though.

Translated in and English by Chrystian Kretowicz, 2 June 2001

Banner of Chelm (Culm) town, which was carried into the battle by Nikolaus , also known as Niksz, native of Swabia. Some say that he was executed by the Grand Master for lack of courage in the battle. The banner was led later by Janusz Orzechowski and Conrad von Ropkow. Others say it is not true Nicholas was murdered for cowardice by Grand Master Heinrich von Plawyen, successor to, fallen in battle, Ulrich von Junigen. These say Nicholas was brave and respected for his military skills, but when he saw the total defeat of his side and himself wounded and in rags, finally captured, he asked for and got permission to access King Ladislaus and begged for mercy. He received it from the magnimonious king and then asked to see the banner which he carried in the battle. Next day, the banner was shown to him, he embraced it and died on the spot. The king ordered his burial at the scene. Under that banner served knights and the city-folk from the Land of Chelm and Chelm town. Note: this banner is 3 cubits and one hand long, 3 cubits wide. The tail runs 3 and 1/4 cubits and tapers to the end.

and in Polish

Chor�giew miasta Che�mna , kt�r� ni�s� Miko�aj zwany Niksz, rodem ze Szwabii, chor��y che�mi�ski, kt�rego mistrz pruski p�niej ukara� na gardle, jakoby niezbyt wiernie post�pi�. Prowadzili t� chor�giew rycerze Janusz Orzechowski i Konrad z Ropkow . Jest za� bli�sze prawdy twierdzenie innych, �e wspomniany Miko�aj czyli Niksz, rycerz szwabski i chor��y chor�gwi che�mi�skiej, nie zosta� zabity za jak�� zbrodni� wiaro�omstwa przez mistrza pruskiego Henryka v. Plawyen , kt�ry nast�pi� po Ulryku v. Junigend, zabitym w wielkiej bitwie - by� bowiem rycerzem i walecznym i wielce cenionym w potrzebie wojennej - ale gdy ujrza� kl�sk� swej strony a siebie n�dznie odartego ze wszystkiego i pojmanego, uzyska� pozwolenie zbli�enia si� do W�adys�awa, kr�la polskiego i zwr�cenia si� do niego z b�aganiem. Co �acno uzyskawszy od lito�ciwego kr�la, prosi�, by mu pokazano chor�giew, kt�r� nosi�. Gdy mu j� pokazano na drugi dzie�, ujrzawszy j� i obj�wszy upad� i zmar�, i tam te� na rozkaz kr�la zosta� zakopany. Pod t� chor�gwi� byli .

Uwaga! Ta chor�giew ma d�ugo�ci trzy �okcie z d�oni� jednej r�ki, szeroko�ci za trzy �okcie tylko. Ogon za� ci�gnie si� na d�ugo�� trzech �okci i �wierci szeroko�ci jednego �okcia bez p� �wierci, a im ni�ej tym w�ziej, w ko�cu za� najw�ziej.

So, what is the reason for using a present day Polish name for a medieval Knight from Southern Germany, recorded in latin by a Pole and in German by Germans, in the English Misplaced Pages? -- Matthead      O       07:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Nikolaus von Renys, Nicolas von Renis

This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.s-gabriel.org/heraldry/lothar/tannenberg.html

Nr.178

Another Nikolaus von Renys

Banners from the Battle of Tannenberg A critical review of Die "Banderia Prutenorum" des Jan Dlugosz - eine Quelle zur Schlacht bei Tannenberg 1410 by Sven Ekdahl. (Gottingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1976)

by Lothar von Katzenellenbogen and Johannes von Narrenstein © 1995,2002 by Thomas Barnes. All rights reserved Originally published: 24-25 June 1995, KWHS Proceedings (Outlands) Posted: 5 April 2002 Part of the Medieval Heraldry Archive.

178 (Banner with schwenkel, 3 1/4 x 7/8 ells) Barry wavy of four argent and gules, issuant from chief a Latin cross reversed sable. Civitatis Culmensis (City of Kulm ), Nicolaus dictas Niksz (Nikolaus von Renys "called Niksz"). The current arms of the city of Chelmno are: Barry wavy of four enarched gules and argent, issuant from the third bar a Latin cross sable (Marian Gumowski, Erby Miast Polskich, Warsaw 1960, p.145). Two stories are told of the fate of Nicholaus von Renys. In the first, he is captured at Tannenberg and, upon seeing his banner in Polish hands, dies on the spot of shame. In the second and more likely story, he fled the battlefield and was summarily executed in Graudenz in 1411. Dlugosz also lists the names Janussius Orzechowsky (Johannes von Orsichau ), Conradus de Ropkow, and Henricus de Plauyen (Heinrich von Plauen) in connection with the banner. The first two were knights with th! e army, the last succeded Ulrich von Jungingen as Grand Master of the Order (1410-1413).

Nikolaus von Renys identified as Schwabe

An earlier Polish source identified Nikolaus von Renys as Schwabe. That does not have to mean, that he was actually from Schwaben, that means a Germanin general, because besides the Polish calling Germans Nemcy, nemcec (silent, quiet), they call all Germans Schwaben (even as a derogatory term). Their knowledge of calling all Germans Schwaben seems to be derived from the fact, that all the German tribes of eastern Germany Magna Germania, were 1900 years ago by Tacitus classified as Suebi and Suebi (Suevi) lived for some time near the Black Sea, just as Goths.

If the Polish wikipedia group insist on keeping a Mikolaj of Rynsk, then I suggest we have two article:

1. for the historical Nikolaus von Renys

1. for Mikolaj of Rynsk, a Polish mythological figure, who is loosely based on the historical German Prussian Culmerland noble Nikolaus von Renys and we link those two together.

As to Nikolaus or Nicolas von Renys, Nicolas von Renys has over 500 google results with different stuff, but google: Nikolaus von Renys all reflect the right person.

Labbas 8 January 2007