Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:14, 7 February 2005

This page apparently has been named 'Safavids' which is not a good spelling for the correct pronunciation. I guess the best spell for the word would be 'Safavies'('Safavi' as for single). I have changed the spells in this page and the page for 'Isfahan'; but we need to change the page’s name as well or somehow mirror the information from 'Safavid' page to 'Safavi' page. This is very important because nobody with proper history knowledge would look for 'Safavid'!! ; Especially the Persian users. I ask from the experienced guys please do this and make it right.

P.S. I come from Isfahan, Iran and I'm currently living in England

Well, I don't really know anything about the subject, but the Macmillan Encyclopaedia calls them "Safavids", and there are over three thousands hits on Google for "Safavids" (compared to twelve for "Safavies"). The spelling may not be very close to the pronounciation, but it does seem to be the most commonly used. Perhaps you could add a note indicating the pronounciation: so the article could begin "Safavids (pronounced safavies)" or whatever). --Camembert

(the below from my user page)

Hello Camembert

This is about the 'Safavid': Seeing everything back to what it was so quickly was much unexpected. As about 'Safavies' I made it from 'Safavi' according to English language. The count for 'Safavi' in Google is 8230 and for 'Safavid' is 10800. I appreciate what you are saying but you have to understand that there is no pronunciation of ’d’ in the word. I guess the mistake comes from the foreign writers which have not been familiar with Farsi. Anyway as we all trying to develop the encyclopedia it's better to teach people the proper spell and pronunciation of the word. As I said before there is no need to delete 'Safavid' we can have that in the 'safavi' page as an alternative spell so people can get to the page with both spells but they learn the right one.

If you want to discuss this matter please leave your note on Safavid or this page. Thank you

Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate what you're saying about the "d" making it look like the word is pronounced differently to how it is, but it really does seem like this is how the word is usually spelt. For instance - as you say, there are 8230 Google hits for "Safavi", but many of these are in personal names: if one searches instead for "Safavi dynasty" there are only 117 hits, whereas "Safavid dynasty" returns 2110 hits. Google isn't always a reliable indicator what is "right", of course, but that's quite a big difference. According to our policy at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names), we should name articles by the most common name used in an English-language context, which in this case seems to be "Safavid". We should, however, add a note to the article pointing out how the name should be pronounced (I think you're in a better position to do that than I, since you actually know how to pronounce it!). I'll also make a redirect from safavi so that any searches for that spelling will get to the right page. --Camembert

Thank you Camembert

The pronounciation issue is explained in Misplaced Pages Article Safavi

Historical inaccuracies

I changed some points in the article. Because what was mentioned is in my opinion contradictory to the historical facts. The word Turkic when applied to a people means they are of Turkic (=Mongoloid) stock, while the Safavid soldiers where people of mosly Iranian stock who were linguistically Turkified. That's why the designation Turkic-speaking is more correct for them. Qizilbash is a Turkic word used in Azerbaijani and Uzbek etc. and not in (Istanbuli)Turkish. The (Istanbuli)Turkish for that word is Kizil-bas. Turkic means "related to the family of language spoken by the Turks" and does not mean (Istanbuli) Turkish at all.

It is a well-established fact that the standard and official language of the Safavid government was Persian. There is not even one single official document of the Safavid times found to be written in any other language than Persian. I have been studying the documents of that period and I know what I am talking about. Azerbaijani was not official at all. It was only used by the Safavid kings to talk to some of the military officiers who might have not learned Persian yet. But all the official correspondences were done merely in Persian.

Azarbaijan is the area to the south of the Aras River and is not divided by Turkey and Iran or others. It is in its entirety a part of Iran as always. If you want to refer to Aran, the newly forme republic to the north of Aras, it is a new forgery to call that area "Azerbaijan" too. The historical reference here is about the real Azarbaijan not the new fake one. --Mani1 11:13, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

DISPUTE: Persian ethnicity of SAFAVIDS is scientifically established! POV not pertinent.

POV and citing of hearsay are not helpful.

• Safi Al-Din Ardebili (of Ardebil) was originally of Kurdish, hence Indo-European extraction, as opposed to Mongol/Turkic stock and as occasionally claimed by individuals unfamiliar with the historical background.

• The population of Azerbaijan comprised a large number of ethnical Iranians, who did however share the same language, Azeri, with their Turkic compatriots.

• Ismail Safavi cannot have been a "great grandson" of Sheikh Safi Al-Din, as he came to power 170 years after his forebear's death.

• Neither Tabriz, nor Qazvin bear witness to Safavid architecture, as this distinct style developed during the reign of Safavid kings with residence in Isfahan, which harbors the most eminent Safavid examples.

• The Aq Qoyunlou, and Qaraqoyunlou tribes, as well as the Dynasties of the same name were of Turkic nature and their names in their native Turkic idiom are phonetically pronounced differently from the Ottoman Turk "Istanbuli" tradition. Hence the Istanbuli "K" needs to be replaced by the proper transliteration for the Turkic "Q".

• Before a user (e.g. "Tabib") sets off on a REVERT WAR, I suggested objective perusal of amply abundant sources on the subject matter, on which much light has been shed by numerous scientifically trained historians, and which have gained universal acceptance.--Pantherarosa 13:08, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To all parties concerned with the factual accuracy of the article,

To avoid edit war on this article, please settle the dispute in talk page before making substantial changes, and then remove {{disputed}} tag. --Pouya 13:37, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Turkic origins of the Safavids and Pantherarosa's nationalist propaganda

I regret that I am being dragged into this kind of dispute. I did my best to avoid conflict by initially trying to incorporate some of Pantherarosa's remarks. However, I cannot accept such flagrant lies and propaganda.

1. Pantherarosa writes,

Safi Al-Din Ardebili (of Ardebil) was originally of Kurdish, hence Indo-European extraction, as opposed to Mongol/Turkic stock and as occasionally claimed by individuals unfamiliar with the historical background.

• Safi-Al-Din (also referred to as Safi-ad-Din was originally from Ardebil, a city in South Azerbaijan, which is part of northwestern Iran inhabited by Turkic ethnic group that is today called the Azeris. It is also a well established fact that in the time of Sheikh Safi in XIII c. Ardebil was a Turkic(Azeri)-populated city. There is absolutely no historical reference of Sheikh Safi-ad-Din's "Kurdish" or "Persian" ethnicity.

Moreover, if Pantherarosa is so "familiar" with history, he should know that "Turkic" equals "Mongoloid" as much as "Persian" correspond to "Tuaregs" in Sagara. The word Turkic has no distinct racial connotation, since Turkic tribes have been historically dispersed throughout a vast geographical field from Europe to Asia and therefore, they have both Mongoloid and Europeoid racial characteristics. Turks of Iran (Azeris), like their kins in Azerbaijan and in Turkey belong to the Europeoid race (btw, more so than Indo European Persians). Therefore, the remarks about racial characteristics of the Azeris in Iran is not quite appropriate here.

2. Pantherarosa writes,

The population of Azerbaijan comprised a large number of ethnical Iranians, who did however share the same language, Azeri, with their Turkic compatriots.

• This is a classical sample of present-day Persian propaganda. It has a drop of truth in it, since certainly, living for centuries side by side, Turkic Azeris and Persians have experienced intermarriages etc. BUT, this statement aims far beyond that. It's purpose is to deny the historical existence of active Turkic element in the Iranian history and culture. Same propaganda is being waged today with regard to Iranian Azeris, whom Persian propaganda claims to be "Turkified Persians".

3. Pantherarosa writes,

Neither Tabriz, nor Qazvin bear witness to Safavid architecture, as this distinct style developed during the reign of Safavid kings with residence in Isfahan, which harbors the most eminent Safavid examples.

• In earlier edition, only Isfahan was mentioned as capital of the Safavid state. However, there were three consecutive capitals of the Safavid state. First, in 1501-1548 the capital was Tabriz, another historical Azeri-populated city in South Azerbaijan. Then, constant wars with the Ottomans, made shah Tahmasp I to move the capital into the inner parts (Tabriz was too close to the border with Ottoman Empire and was captured several times during wars) to Kazvin, another predominantly Azeri populated town in South Azerbaijan, northwestern Iran. Later, Shah Abbas I moved the capital even further to the inner parts of the empire to Isfahan, a Persian city in central Iran.

Now, guess why Pantherarosa intentionally distinguishes Isfahan and omits and downplays the importance of Tabriz and Kazvin???

4. Pantherarosa writes,

The Aq Qoyunlou, and Qaraqoyunlou tribes, as well as the Dynasties of the same name were of Turkic nature and their names in their native Turkic idiom are phonetically pronounced differently from the Ottoman Turk "Istanbuli" tradition. Hence the Istanbuli "K" needs to be replaced by the proper transliteration for the Turkic "Q".

This is really a worthless talk. Whether "K" or "Q" doesn't really matter, because, at those times (XIV-XV cc.) there was no distinctions of present-day nature between Turks in Azerbaijan and Turks in Turkey, who both consider these states part of their history. And certainly, there was no "Istanbuli" Turkish at those times. In Azerbaijan (and in Azeri Turkish), the word is written as "Qara Qoyunlu", "Ağ Qoyunlu" in what you call "Istanbuli" Turkish, the word is "Kara ("Ak") Koyunlu. Considering the English pronuciation and grammar rules, I purposefully retained "K", which is also most commonly used.

In summary, I want to reiterate, Safavids were ofd Turkic origin. The official and palace language of the state, especially in the early period (during Shah Ismail I and Tahmasb I) was a Turkish dialect that is today being called Azeri(Azerbaijani) language. This is a well-established historical fact. Many European travellers who visited Safavids in medieval period testified that Safavid kings spoke Turkic language. Persian language was also widely used as an official language but Persian language, along with the Arab language was sort of lingua franca in the medieval Muslim Orient and was widely used in official level and as a language of literature and science. This is largely a case in all the countries throughout the region independently of their ethnic origin and native language, even in the Ottoman Empire. And I hope, nobody would seriously claim that Ottoman Empire was not a Turkic state either...--Tabib 14:56, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages readers deserve pertinent and well researched Information. Not POV!

• No sense in mixing the centuries and cultures. You state the correctness of Turkic "Q", so why reiterate "K" ?? Stick to correct spelling in the given context.
• Safi Al-Din Ardebili was of course "from Ardebil" as already clearly mentioned BEFORE!
• Tabriz was also mentioned by editors, before, as the place where Ismail Safavi proclaimed himself SHAH! Read attentively. Qazvin and Tabriz are nevertheless NOT conspicuous with SAFAVID architecture.
• "Pantherarosa" happens to be a descendant of Safi Al-Din through his Iranian mother (but has a European father). Sees no sense in playing Iranians against Turks or vice versa (assertions to this end are childish nonsense!). He knows his Pedigree; except for Uzun Hassan Aq Qoyunlou's daughter, no notable Turkic blood blessed the family. He certainly has not invented history, or the proven fact that Safi Al-Din was of Kurdish/Iranian extraction.
• The ORIGIN of the Safavid Family is documented in the "Safwat as-Safa", a chronology preserved to this day, written on orders of the early Safaviyeh Sufi Masters, before the dynasty's founding, narrating the family's descent. It starts with Sheikh Safi Al-Din's tenth century descendant Firuzshah "Zarrinkulah" (Golden Cap), who was dabbed al-Kurdi as-Sangani, having been of Kurdish extraction and having hailed from Sangan (near Merv) in Greater Khorasan. It is said that (according to TOGAN "Origine") he had been part of the conquest of Azerbaijan, together with the Kurdish prince Mamlan bin Wahsudan of the Rawwadid Dynasty, in the 1020s AD and been granted Ardebil as a fiefdom. His descendant, Sheikh Safi's father, Amin-ad-din Gibra'il was a wealthy farmer and his mother was the daughter of Gamal Baruqis Dowlati of the village Baruq near Adebil. The forefathers of Safi Al-Din, as well as his siblings and descendants are documented in many chronicles, that have been preserved until today. There is ample evidence as to their ethnicity. They are universally regarded as Kurds/Iranians, except for a few contenders, who theorize that the Safavids may have had Arab or Turkic forbears, without accepted evidence, though.
• The Article stated clearly that a Turkic idiom (Azeri) was the court language at the early Safavid court.
• The adjective "Longlasting" with regards to the dynasty and the Sufi order, introduced by user "Tabib", in the Article, were vague, to say the least, and not very helpful.--Pantherarosa 01:27, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Turkic belonging of the Safavids: further evidence. Pantherarosa’s biased POV exposed

I do not want to waste my time to prove what is already obvious. I protest against continuous reverts and flagrant pan-Persian propagandan waged by Pantherarosa. Below, I give further evidence to Turkic belonging of the Safavids.

• Here’s the quote from an Iranian author’s article on Safavids from the :

“A militant Islamic Sufi order, the Safavids, appeared among Turkish speaking people of west of the Caspian Sea, at Ardabil. The Safavid order survived the invasion of Timur to that part of the Iran in the late 13th century. By 1500 the Safavids had adopted the Shi'a branch of Islam and were eager to advance Shi'ism by military means. Safavid males used to wear red headgear...”

Turkish language was spoken at Shah Esma'il's court, but having adopted Persian as official language and much of Persian culture the Safavids were mistakenly thought by outsiders to be Persian, but they were truly Iranian with a unifying spirit. To help organize the state the Safavids used Persian bureaucrats with a tradition in administration and tax collecting, and they tried to create a religious unity. Shah Esma'il described himself as a descendant, on their father's side, of the Prophet Mohammad and claimed to have royal Sassanian blood as well. Shi'ism became the state religion, Esma'il ignored the Sunni branch of Islam and tried to force people to become Shi'a, which was a difficult task with a variety of tribes and less than complete authority…”

• Here’s what writes,

“The Safavid state provided both the territorial and societal foundations of modern Iran. Founded by Shah Ismail, this Turkic-speaking dynasty claimed descent from a Shiite Sufi order.”

• Here’s what writes,

Safavid – a Persian dynasty, originally part of a Turkic nomadic group that ruled from 1500 to 1722 and established the Shiite branch of Islam as the state religion

• Here’s another quote from :

“During the 15th century several competing families and tribes, mostly of Turkic origins, ruled over various parts of Iran. Notable among them were the Safavids, who headed a militant Sufi order founded in the northwest by Shaikh Safi of Ardabil in the early 14th century. His descendant, Ismail I, conquered first Tabriz and then the rest of Iran. In 1501 he proclaimed himself shah (king), a title commonly used by Iranian rulers in pre-Islamic times…”

• Here’s another excerpt from :

“The Safavids were actually of Turkomen origin and established themselves first at Tabriz… At first religion was much more important than any ethnic identity, and Esmâ'il created a powerful Shi'ite identity for his dynasty and state. This became a unifying and militant force in Irân, especial vis à vis Orthdox Turkey, right down to the present. Abbas I, however, moved the capital to Es.fahân, and the state began to take on more of a Persian than a Turkish character. In retrospect, what the Safavids did was to succeed in establishing a new Persian national monarchy…”

Searching the internet, I came across an interesting political article by , PhD, US scholar of Iranian origin, who criticizes past and present Iranian pan-Persian ethnic policies and advocates so-called pan-Iranian approach comprising all the ethnicities of Iran. Below is the excerpts on Safavids published in US-based web-site:

“…Was Iran a country with territorial integrity under Safavids? Yes. Were Safavids Persian? No. Safavids were Azerbaijanis. They did choose Shia Islam and with the force of the sword killed and forced hitherto Sunni Iranians to convert to Shia Islam. Was it necessary to kill and/or convert Iranians to Shia in order to create a "nation-state," or was there a pluralistic and non- violent way?

The fact of the matter is that our Azerbaijanis defended Iran and Iran's territorial integrity from Russians and Ottomans under the Safavids. Iranians from other ethnic groups lived peacefully in one country…”

As to Pantherarosa's alleged "Safavid" origin, I dont comment on that but, anyway, this statement doesn't present him as a neutral objective party either.

As to petty "K" vs. "Q" (Ak Koyunlu-Ağ Qoyunlu) issue, I have searched Google and found 2,750 and 1,370 results for Ak Koyunlu and Kara Koyunlu respectively, and only 664 and 680 results for Aq Qoyunlu and Qara Qoyunlu. Therefore, my choice of splling was correct. Refer to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things

--Tabib 11:37, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Citing of sources void of scientific nature is below Misplaced Pages Standards. Let reason prevail!

• While I could not imagine a single reason why one should oppose ones own descent - why belie it? My mentioning the family background only went to demonstrate why I should actually bother to bicker over this issue at all.

• Teymur invaded Iran in 1383 and not as Cited by user "Tabib's" source in "the thirteenth" century.

• What is the PROBLEM of user "Tabib" with things PERSIAN? Why try to bend history in the Turkish direction?? Nothing what so ever is wrong with anything Turkish, one would assert, so why find something wrong with things established as BLATANTLY Persian????
• As if two entirely insignificant "editorlings" were prone to alter the course of history, in RETROSPECT!?
• What on earth has beset one to adamantly demand Turkification, without historical evidence or the training to arrive at such, scientifically?
• Everybody familiar with the subject would roll with laughter over the ridiculous attempts at painting something white BLACK -should I say "Ak" to "Kara"?- (or vice versa), just because he is beridden with base nationalistic sentiments and aggressive as a result? That cannot be what Misplaced Pages is about. Having already come to terms with most of Pantherarosa's citings, of historical findings (thanks for the considerations up to this point and the inclusion in user "Tabib's" attempted "improvement" of the article), he ought to try to back-question his knowledge base fairly, and return to the path of reason.
• For starters, why doesn't user "Tabib" try to cite a single building in Tabriz or Qazwin (I have seen both), in contrast to Ardebil (where I have been often due to the ties to the sanctuary, which of course shows Safavid influence) that he does not cite, however, that should boast any aspect of what is referred to as Safavid Architecture. --Pantherarosa 15:41, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Final blow to the ill-concealed propaganda and cheating

I can't stop marvelling at how user Pantherarosa deliberately denies all the evidences that contradict his biased POV, and at the same time, contrives to do that without actually citing his own sources, which would testify that the Safavids were of "Kurdish" or "Persian" (in a sence of ethnicity and not geography) origin.

Pantherarosa writes,

While I could not imagine a single reason why one should oppose ones own descent - why belie it? My mentioning the family background only went to demonstrate why I should actually bother to bicker over this issue at all.

This is your *claim* and it has no relation to the subject matter of the present discussion. But you know what, I do NOT believe you...

Pantherarosa writes,

Teymur invaded Iran in 1383 and not as Cited by user "Tabib's" source in "the thirteenth" century.

Teymur? We are talking about Safavids! Of course, everyone familiar with history knows that Timur invaded Iran in early 1380s. I checked the sources I cited in my earlier message (namely , , , and Iranian (!) author Shapur Ghazemi's article from and found no reference to your "thirteenth century comment". Instead, here's what Ghazemi's article writes,

"Towards the end of 14th century, Timur (Tamerlane) claimed to be descent from Genghis Khan's family. The disturbed conditions in Mongol Transoxania gave him in the town of Kish the chance to build up a kingdom in Central Asia. He entered Iran in 1380..."

In short, don't distract the discussion from the major point, i.e. Turkic belonging of the Safavids. The sources I have brought (Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta etc.) are rather respected and trustworthy. I twice cited even Iranian authors, who themselves recognize that Safavids were Turkic-speking (!).

I want to stress that User Pantherarosa in his "reply" did not even attempt to comment on these sources. Seemingly, his personal POV is more credible than the sources I named. We go on...

Pantherarosa writes,

What is the PROBLEM of user "Tabib" with things PERSIAN? Why try to bend history in the Turkish direction?? Nothing what so ever is wrong with anything Turkish, one would assert, so why find something wrong with things established as BLATANTLY Persian????What on earth has beset one to adamantly demand Turkification, without historical evidence or the training to arrive at such, scientifically?

It appears that it is user "Pantherarosa" who has a problem with portraying history as it is. The real question is: Why deny the Turkic roots of the Safavids if Safavid kings spoke Turkic, if Shah Ismail I himself entered the history not only as the founder of the Safavid State, but also as the author of wonderful poems written in (Azeri-)Turkic?!! Why allege that user Tabib has a "problem" with Persians, whereas himself allowing for a number of insulting remarks as to the race (see earlier message on Turkic "Mongoloid" remarks by Pantherarosa), and ethnic belonging of present-day Turkic Azeris of Iran (whom the current Persian nationalist propaganda brands "Turkified Persians")?

As to Ak Koyunlu & Kara Koyunlu vs. Aq Qoyunlu & Qara Qoyunlu, I have already substantially answered this question and have no desire to further discuss it. Google gives twice (Kara Koyunlu) and trice (Ak Koyunlu) as much results for my variants of spelling. So I can't add more than what I've already said. Refer to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (common names). Btw, this issue has no direct relation to Safavids either, so, I urge Pantherarosa not to distract the discussion from the major issue.

Pantherarosa writes,

why doesn't user "Tabib" try to cite a single building in Tabriz or Qazwin (I have seen both), in contrast to Ardebil (where I have been often due to the ties to the sanctuary, which of course shows Safavid influence) that he does not cite, however, that should boast any aspect of what is referred to as Safavid Architecture.

Pantherarosa means to say that I intentionally avoided answering this point (despite his repeated failure to answer my arguments). I will stay on this last point in detail.

The sentence in question is as following:

Fine arts, poetry and sciences flourished under Safavid patronage and to this day the cities which were Safavid capital Isfahan bear witness to the era's magnificent architecture.

Initially, I added Tabriz and Kazvin before Isfahan, in order to show the consecutive change in the state's capital cities and state more explicitly that Isfahan was not the only capital of the Safavid state. I want to stress, that previous version gave the impression that Isfahan was the only capital of the Safavids, it mentioned Tabriz as capital at one place, but it was really an episodic mentioning, Kazvin was not mentioned at all.

Initially the capitals were the Azerbaijanian cities of Tabriz and afterwards Kazvin. But due to Safavid-Ottoman wars the Safavid kings had to gradually move the capital to the inner parts of the empire, first from Tabriz to Kazvin and then to Persian city of Isfahan. This is a very important historical detail, which facilitated to the gradual transformation of the Safavid state from originally Turkic-dominated to predominantly Persian-dominated state. Unfortunately, this detail didn't suit Pantherarosa's nationalist agenda and he deleted this part, along with the Turkic origins of the Safavids.

Isfahan, being the third and last capital of the Safavids bears the most prominent samples of Safavid architecture indeed. This is certainly not to say that Tabriz and Kazvin do not have Safavid architecture. For example, Sadeqiyeh mosque in Tabriz completed in 1657 during Shah Abbas II is one example. But certainly, Isfahan as the last and most long-standing capital of the Safavids has more Safavid-period building than earlier two capitals, which moreover, were occasionally captured and razed by the Ottoman troops during Safavi-Ottoman wars.

Considering all the stated above, I have reverted Pantherarosa's biased editions omitting Turkic origins of the Safavids and also, I have made the following edition to the aforementioned part on Isfahan and Safavid architecture.

"Fine arts, poetry and sciences flourished under Safavid patronage. Shah Ismail I himself wrote poems in Turkic (present-day Azeri), as well as Persian and Arabic languages. In this period, literature, architecture and handicrafts such as tilemaking, pottery and textiles developed and great advances were made in bookbinding, decoration and calligraphy. XVI c. Tabriz evolved as the center of carpetmaking and miniature painting of the period. Isfahan, being the third and last capital of the Safavids bears the most prominent samples of the Safavid architecture."

If Pantherarosa has some objections on the substance, I call him to argue directly on the subject matter, and not distract the discussion with various unrelated comments.

Hearsay, copying of Web sources and beliefs of zealous "Editors" do not help.

All recent contentions were in response to user TABIB and therefore admissible as relaying to this discussion.

• Ak" to "Kara" or vice versa...... referred to painting "White" things "Black" (any further comprehension Problems to discern?)
• What is so insulting about MONGOLOID. This Term simply expresses "akin to Mongols", or did you fear I meant the DOWN SYNDROME, which is characterized by an eye-shape which has been erroneously termed "mongoloid" at the time, by scholars, and which many refer to as "Mongolism"?
• Tabriz architectural citing is accepted, but the city surely cannot be cited as exemplary for the style. In Qazvin none can be found, characterized by the distinct style referred to as SAFAVID
• The belief in other people's family ties is totally inconsequential, and no one cares (or do they?)
• People speaking a Language other than the one of their own creed does not render them of the ethnicity of that language. I suppose you are not "British", while communicating in this language, maybe even writing poetry.....
• zealously "googled" web sites are not necessarily acceptable historical sources. Representative longstanding scientific sources on the subject are:

• • Prof. Dr. Monika Gronke: "Derwische im Vorhof der Macht" ISBN 3-515-05758-7 pages 241-63(most comprehensive source available), etc.
  • Zeki Velidi TOGAN: "Mogollar devrinde Anadolu'nun iktisadi vaziyeti (1931) Turk hukuk ve Iktisat tarihi mecmuasi pages 1-42, "Origine" page 346/53
  • Roger Savory: "Iran under the Safavids" Cambridge 1980 (and many more)
  • Vladimir MINORSKY: The poetry of Shah Ismail I" BSOAS (1939-42)
  • Iskandar Munsi (d. 1633-34): diverse historical text translated from Persian by Roger Savory
  • Husain bin Abdal Zahidi (d. 1689): "Silsilat an-nasab-i safawiya" Berlin 1924 (Publications Iranshahr 6)
  • Hans Robert ROEMER: "Die Safaviden" Saeculum 4 (1953) and many more.
  • "Safwat-as-Safa" chronical sources, scientifically analyzed by a number of historians in the field. etc., etc.

No matter what: The Safavids were of Indo European/Iranian/Kurdish ethnicity, a fact that will surely not be altered by ignorami of any creed or calling Pantherarosa 16:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Stubborn Denial

Outstanding! So many titles of the books and NO single mention of "Kurdish Persian" origin of the Safavids!

I want to stress that up untill now, Pantherarosa did not comment on the sources I cited, including world-wide known online resources and even Iranian authors themselves.

Pantherarosa points that "People speaking a Language other than the one of their own creed does not render them of the ethnicity of that language". It is an axiom and this axiom is also the key to understanding why Safavids used Persian language so widely (even more so than Turkic Azeri language) in official correspondence and culture. Any more or less familiar with history of the Middle and Near East person would tell you that Persian language was a language of poetry, science and largely, official correspondence, a sort of lingua franca, as I noted in my previous messages. Persian language was used not only in Safavid court but even in Ottoman court and official correspondence and Indian (Moghol) court. I suppose nobody would argue that Ottomans and Moghols were Persian.

But, Safavids were native Turkic speakers, and not native Persian-speakers precisely because, they continued to use and to promote Turkic language in official correspondence, poetry and science despite the fact that Turkic did not enjoy the same high status as Persian did.

As to Pantherarosa's remarks as to the race, yes, I do consider them insulting because they falsely, and perhaps intentionally, equalled Turkic with Mongoloid ("Turkish/Mongoliod stock").

I wonder, if there is ANY point of further discussing with Pantherarosa, when he constantly sets forth claims and contrives not to bring any single argument supporting his own view. It seems to me that and there is no single Wikipedian who would interfere to stop this crazy revert war and I am completely left alone to waste my time with this pointless discusion.

I have nothing to add to the discussion, sinnce I've already brought enough facts to which Pantherarosa came up with no single concrete responce.

No sense in refuting Science. Blatant ignorance on the subject is no solution. Must revert!

User "Tabib" is apparently not capable of dealing with SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

• When offered a multitude of works by internationally renowned CAPACITIES in the field, with exact page references and further description of the books (found in the libraries of most every relevant university faculty), for perusal with regards to SAFAVID's DESCENT - it is downright silly and void of maturity to brush that away, without dealing with the literature!
• It is noted with interest though, that user "Tabib" has ventured to copy pictures on websites of established Safi Al-Din descendants, such as one titled "SAFAVIDS" at http://homepage.mac.com/zahedi/Zahedi_History/PhotoAlbum64.html. The copyright reference to "medieval times" is not correct however, as the more recent PHOTO of the original "rendering" is protected and not the piece of art, user "Tabib" asserts: "Shah Ismail I / Medieval European rendering/ This image is in the public domain because its copyright has expired in the United States and those countries with a copyright term of life of the author plus 100 years". Depicted is Shah Ismail II (the second), by the way.
• Sorry to hear User "Tabib" has a problem with Mongols too, feeling insulted by their mentioning.
• I am sure User "Tabib" would strongly, if not aggressively object, if he were called "erudite"; some might argue he would have good reason to.

--Pantherarosa 18:32, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

To those confused and concerned about ethnicities

First of all, to those arguing about origins. It's the language that establishes the uniqueness of ethnicity. I.e. the Persians, Turks look alike Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, etc., but what makes them unique is language. So, please, don't try to measure the head to determine so called "Iranian origin" or "Mongoloid" origin. To put it correctly "Mongoloid" is a definition of human type with specific physiological features, as opposed to "Europeoid" (not "Iranoid", as there is no such meaning). Turk, just like Persian, Italian, etc. is a definition of unique language groups or ethnicities.

It's interesting that Shah Ismail's origin was recorded in encyclopedias and books for years if not decades, and still our Persian neighbors choose to argue and rewrite history in their own way. Isn't it enough my friends? After all, what difference does it make if Ismail Safavi was Turk, Azeri, Persian, Kurd, or whoever? The man built an empire, converted everyone to Shia and was a deep religious believer in his ideology. Are you going to change his language or maybe the poems he wrote in Turkic, or maybe the letters he wrote in Turkic to Ottoman Sultan Selim. The person chose his ethnic belonging by speaking certain language as his own tongue.

To confirm his Turkic origin for yourselves, read Bernard Lewis (Prof. Princeton University) book named "The Middle East". It's only 10 bucks on Amazon, for those wishing to read their own history from authoritative Western source, and wishing to stop allegation that end up in no use.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684832801/qid=1107418027/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-4662082-1031868?v=glance&s=books

And what difference does it make if it's "Istambuli" or Anatolian Turkish to put it correctly or Azeri Turkish, it's just dialects. Is there a difference between Persian spoken in Khorasan and Shiraz, just because some words are not used in other dialect? Come on. This is not serious, and you're only wasting your time. Don't think about changing/faking past, think about working for better future.

Just an Azeri TURK

On Account of your comment, above, you sound more like an AZERI JERK!

What business do you have, deleting other people's comments? Tabib's views were far more balanced and void of the nonsense that ehnicity is based on language! Americans of Turkish descent (e.g.), speaking hardly any Turkish, are still considered ETHNICAL TURKS, I would presume. Cut the ....... and behave human!

Someone please revert! Do'nt know how myself, yet --Deli-Eshek 10:32, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Let us make a mutual effort to remain pertinent, on this forum.

User "Deli-Eshek" (?!) we are not trading emotions on Misplaced Pages, or are we? Ethnicity is surely not chosen by anyone , but destined before birth. Any sentiments with regards to one's ethnicity are at everybody's fancy, will however not change the creed, which one was borne into, one would reckon. --Pantherarosa 15:41, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Safi and Safavis were Turks - Part I

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time." Abraham Lincoln, (attributed) 16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

When I was informed about the discusions in this respectable forum about the origins of Sheykh Safi-al-Din and his desendant Shah Ismail Safavi I, I remembered the above-mentioned words of Abraham Lincoln. Indeed there has been agenda of the certain circles in IRI and previous during Shah regime to falsify the history and in this aspect, the historical personalities whom ethnic minority (shal we say powerless majority) in this country, namely Azerbaijani Turks, have built their vision on. By "designating" Babek (Anti-Arab rebel of 9th century), poet Nizami Gandjavi and now Shah Ismayil Safavi I, as Talish, Farsi, or Kurd, the politicians in Shah Persia and IRI, have not just tried to kill the devotion and interest of the Turkic people in this country to their ancestors, but also have ignored and closed their eyes on the major historical data about the Turkic origins of these historical figures in the world libraries. Below I will provide major and credible sources of the wolrd-known scholars and encyclopedias which have indentified Shah Ismayil and his ancestors being Turk (Turkman, Turkish and etc). My postings will be in as many parts and as many sources that can extinguish the great imagination of the opposite thinkers.

1) "The establishment of the Gajar capital in Tehran at the end of the eighteenth century was merely the last manifestation of what may well be a permanent tendency in the life of Iran. There are manifold reason or this phenomenon. Moreover, the Turkish and Mongol origins of the earliest dynasties certainly played a major part in causing the capitals to be situated in the north, and especially along the main invasion route following Alburz into Azarbaijan. The princes of these basically nomadic states were anxious both to be near their tribes and to avoid the excessive heat of the climate farther to the south. This helps to explain the evolution of Tabriz, which, despite all the vicissitudes, was the capital successively of the Mongols, the Qara Qoyunlu, the Aq Qoyunlu, and finally the Safavids, all of whom stemmed originally from the Turkmen tribes of the north-west from the thirteenth to the sixteenth centuries. Tabriz was abandoned only for short periods, and always for other cities in the same region: Maragheh, whose, fertile pasture land had attracted Hulagu, Ardabil, the cradle of the Safavids; and Sultaniyeh."

The Cambridge History of Iran (in eight Volumes). Volume 1. The Land of Iran. Edited by W.B.Fisher, Cambridge at the University Press, 1968. Page 434.

2) "Who was Ismail, who made such an impact on the Persia of his time and whose influence was still felt centuries later?…We have already met his father, Shaikh Haidar, and his grandfather Junaid as notable enterprising characters in Turkmen history, politically ambitious representatives of the Safaviyya, a widespread sufi order centered on Ardabil in the south-western coastal region of the Caspian Sea….

In this Respect Shaikh Safi was a typical religious leader, a representative of Folk Islam far removed from the official theology, whose spokesmen viewed his career with grave suspicion. But in no other regard: for even his origins as a member of a respected family which had lived in Ardabil for generations, are by no means typical of the religious leaders of the time, who normally came from the lower classes."

The Cambridge History of Iran. Volume 6. The Timurid and Safavid Periods. Edited by Peter Jackson and late Laurence Lockhart. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1986. Page 190-191