| Revision as of 22:10, 21 February 2021 editYaakov Wa. (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users633 edits →Proposed Overhaul← Previous edit | Revision as of 00:35, 22 February 2021 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,291,804 editsm Archiving 4 discussion(s) to Talk:Messiah in Judaism/Archive 1) (botNext edit → | ||
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| It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. | It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. | ||
| Not to hear his voice. | Not to hear his voice. | ||
| == External links modified == | |||
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| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060118114058/http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/afterlife/AE_Messianism_TO/AE_Messiah.htm to http://www.myjewishlearning.com/ideas_belief/afterlife/AE_Messianism_TO/AE_Messiah.htm | |||
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| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 09:09, 7 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == External links modified (January 2018) == | |||
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| == Second Temple period and apocalypticism == | |||
| I think that this section needs some serious updating. Since the 2000's, scholars have argued that Christianity is deeply rooted in Jewish messianism. The aricle now says: | |||
| {{talkquote|The majority of ] texts have no reference to an individual end-time Messiah.<ref>Origins of Apocalypticism in Judaism and Christianity: Volume 3 – Page 224 John J. Collins, Bernard McGinn – 2000 "That is, the vast majority of Second Temple Jewish texts have no reference to a messianic leader of the end-time. ... the Damascus Document, the Rule of the Congregation, the Commentary on Genesisa, 4Q521 (Messianic Apocalypse), ..."</ref>}} | |||
| <br> | |||
| {{reflist-talk}} | |||
| Compare this to: | |||
| * William Horbury (1998), ''Jewish messianism and the cult of Christ'': | |||
| :{{talkquote|There were more messianic beliefs in Judaism at the time of Jesus than is commonly supposed.}} | |||
| : | |||
| * William Horbury (2016), ''Messianism Among Jews and Christians: Biblical and Historical Studies''; | |||
| * David Flusser (2009), ''Judaism of the Second Temple Period: Sages and Literature'', chapter 18, ''Jewish Messianism Reflected in the Early Church'' | |||
| * Andrew Chester (2007), ''Messiah and Exaltation: Jewish Messianic and Visionary Traditions and New Testament Christology'', p.394-395): | |||
| :{{talkquote|...for Paul, Jesus is clearly a figure of the heavenly world, and thus fits a messianic category already developed within Judaism, where the Messiah is a human or angelic figure belonging…in the heavenly world, a figure who at the same time has had a specific, limited role on earth}} | |||
| * R. J. Zwi Werblowsky (1987), , Encyclopedia of Religion: | |||
| :{{talkquote|The messianic doctrines that developed during the second half of the Second Temple period from approximately 220 bce to 70 ce (also called the "intertestamentary" period)}} | |||
| * Larry Hurtado, ''Paul’s Messianic Christology'': | |||
| :{{talkquote|the christology and devotional stance that Paul affirmed (and shared with others in the early Jesus-movement) was not a departure from or a transcending of a supposedly monochrome Jewish messianism, but, instead, a distinctive expression within a variegated body of Jewish messianic hopes. In this paper, applying text-critical categories as a model, I first propose that we view Paul’s “christology” and devotional stance as comprising a particular and remarkable variant-form of Jewish messianism among the diversity of messianic figures and beliefs reflected in second-temple Jewish texts. I then discuss features that made it a distinctive and noteworthy expression of Jewish messianism.}} | |||
| :{{talkquote|To use a text-critical analogy, just as there was a textual pluriformity in biblical writings in the second-temple period (evident in the biblical manuscripts from Qumran), so there was a pluriformity in Jewish messianic hopes and figures; and I contend that Paul’s beliefs about Jesus constitute an especially noteworthy instance of that diversity.1}} | |||
| :{{talkquote| : See, e.g., John J. Collins, The Scepter and the Star: The Messiahs of the Dead Sea Scrolls and Other Ancient Literature (New York: Doubleday, 1995), who posits “four distinct messianic paradigms”: “king, priest, prophet, and heavenly messiah or Son of Man” (195). “There were different messianic paradigms, not one composite concept of Messiah” (196). But he also notes that there were occasionally instances of the merging of two or more of these paradigms, forming “a composite figure” (195). See also Adela Yarbro Collins and John J. Collins, King and Messiah as Son of God: Divine, Human, and Angelic Messianic Figures in biblical and Related Literature (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2008); Andrew Chester, Messiah and Exaltation: Jewish Messianic and Visionary Traditions and New Testament Christology (WUNT 207; Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2007), esp. 191 -327, 329-63, who judged “it is not possible to speak of a single form of messianic expectation or concept . . .; instead, we have to reckon with a variety of different kinds of beliefs and figures” (355).}} | |||
| ] -] 18:34, 6 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Scriptural requirements == | |||
| {{yo|Wallingfordtoday|PiCo|Epinoia|Tgeorgescu}} ] is about ''Christian'' interpretations, isn't it? Compare . ] -] 15:23, 8 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
| :That entire section looks like OR to me. ] (]) 00:38, 9 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
| ::- Sorry, but I am not well-informed enough on Messiah in Judaism to make any kind of significant contribution - but thanks for thinking of me - ] (]) 23:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC) | |||
| == Page needs rework == | == Page needs rework == | ||
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Change in Historical Views: Talmud
I made a change in Historical Views: Talmud. It was written there: He answered him, 'This is what he said to thee, To-day, if ye will hear his voice.'
"if ye will hear his voice" is not the meaning of the sentence. It is a sentence taken from a verse in Psalms 95;7: "today if you will listen to his voice".
The true meaning of the sentence is "listen to his voice", it is also the only right translation there is.
It means to obey, to listen to what G-d says to you and do what he tells you to. Not to hear his voice.
Page needs rework
Dear Editors who read this,
Feel this page has way too much focus not on Judaism, but its relationship with christianity. Feel Jewish aspects should be turned up whereas christian aspects should be toned down. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 02:57, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Need for overhaul
Dear All,
As I see it, this page needs major overhaul. The information on this page was written by those with little understanding. See sections where it mentioned beliefs that gathering of Jews before building of third Temple. Correct order is building of temple and then gathering of Jews. With regard to those minor factual edits will be changing. With regard to more major decisions, such as removing content should probably wait a couble days before changing it.
Reason for these views is that messianism in Judaism is not well understood, even by the scholarly both secular and religious. The only text which compiled a systemic commentary on Maimonedes last two chapters which deal with Messiah and messianic era, just came out last year and is currently only available in hebrew. Maimonedes is the only authority in Jewish Law who rules on laws of Messiah and Messianic Era. The commentary is entitled "Dvar Malchus Chidushim U'Biurim Be'Hilchos Melochim Le'HoRambam Prokim 11-12" ISBN: 978-1-893855-09-0. I have been studying this for past year and have some familiarity with basic concepts. The previous writers had a general vague knowledge of some details, but lacked a systematic overview of the concept. I intend to address this in coming weeks with editing of just basic concepts such as Two periods in the Messianic era and other concepts. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 04:28, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yaakov Wa.– please support your changes with citations to reliable sources (WP:RS) – the content you added about, "enabling the Jewish people to observe all 613 commandments" is not supported by either of the sources cited – content without citations counts as original research, see WP:NOR – "Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it" per WP:VERIFY – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 04:43, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear Epinoia,
Check Maimonides Hilchos Melachim 11:1 Where it states "Then in his days all the statutes will return to their previous state... according to all their particulars as described by the Torah". Translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 05:29, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Proposed Overhaul
Dear All,
I propose we revamp article according to this format.
1. Brief description of Jewish Messiah.
2.Role of Messiah in Judaism.
2.1 Restoring Judaism's (613) commandments 2.2 Qualifications for Messiah 2.2.1 Qualifications for Presumptive Messiah 2.2.2 Qualifications for Definite Messiah. 2.2.3 Disqualification factors for (Presumptive?) Messiah. 2.3 Messiah's effect on World. 2.3.1 Effect on Jews 2.3.2 Effect on non-Jews 2.3.3 Effect on physical world
3. How does Messiah come/ Two-Eras of Messiah/ Two periods in Messianic Era (Not yet finalized exact wording)
3.1 Non-Meritorious State-by Year 6000 3.2 Meritorious state.
4. Mashiach Ben David vs. Mashiach Ben Yosef (Joseph?),
5. Etymology.
6. Put in history of Messiah according to Jewish biblical sources. (This is Messiah in Judaism, will have separate section for christianity).
7. Judaic Messianism and christianity
7.1 all the christian stuff 7.2 Judaism's rejection of Jesus as Messiah.
8. Contemporary Jewish Views era).
8.1 Orthodox 8.1.1 Hassidic/Chabad 8.1.2 Non-Hasidic/Litvak. 8.2 Non-Orthodox 8.2.1 Reform 8.2.2 Conservative
9. See also
10. Notes
11. References
12. Sources
13. Further Readings
14. External Links
Please comment on any suggestions to this proposed structure.
Blessings,
Yaakov W.
p.s. If no comments by 2/23/21, will start overhaul process.
- – there should be a "See also" section before Notes – cheers, Epinoia (talk) 14:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear Epinoia,
Done Yaakov Wa. (talk) 15:11, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding your suggested section 2 above, especially "2.1 Restoring Judaism's 613 commandments" - what is your Reliable Source for this initial statement, before anything else? Thank you, warshy 19:14, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear Warshy,
The source is Maimonedes Hilchos Melachim chapter 11:1. Where it states (translation from Moznaim/ Eliyahu Tougar) "In the future, the Messianic King will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. Then, in his days, all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee year according to all their particulars as described by the Torah".
Blessings,
Yaakov W.
p.s. Take a look at this article where it briefly goes over this concept. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1122357/jewish/Resumption-of-Suspended-Mitzvot.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaakov Wa. (talk • contribs) 19:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- I had a suspicion you may be coming from Chabad sources, which for me are biased sources to begin with. As for the suggested "613 commandments" to begin with, Maimonides does not refer to them in this manner. The proper way to use Maimonides (which should be in the article, no doubt about that) is to directly quote Maimonides giving his complete description of the Messianic age in translation, precisely as you have done above. Thank you, warshy 19:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Dear Warshy,
Appreciate comment, however, when one looks at the hebrew term used in Maimonedes (All their particulars as described by the Torah ככל מצותה האמורה בתורה). It is a clear reference to the 613 commandments. See also Maimonedes Hilchos Melachim Chapter 11:3 "The main thrust of the matter is: This Torah, its statutes and its laws, are everlasting. We may not add to them or detract from them. Anyone who adds or detracts or who reveals false interpretations of the Torah to imply that the mitzvot are not to be understood simply is surely wicked and a non-believer." (Translation from Tougar, with uncensored portion from Yemenite manuscript added).
Blessings,
Yaakov W.
p.s. Regarding naming of section, could be renamed to "Restoring Commandments" or something along those lines. I want suggestions.
Yaakov Wa. (talk) 19:59, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- For ease of reading of the section/discussion you should indent your replies using the ":" colon before you start your reply. For signing your posts all you have to do is to type four tildes "~" in a row, and the Misplaced Pages platform will automatically sign them for you. As for your suggested overhaul, my suggestion is to work in small increments, step by step, so it is easier for other editors to accept or reject your changes. I.e., instead of a big plan of a complete overhaul of the article, I'd prefer you try to work in small changes and increments. Note that nowhere Maimonides himself uses the number "613" for his definition of the commandments of the Torah. That number is found in a later rabbinical source, that does not necessarily need to be referred to here, where Maimonides own words should be used directly instead. Thank you, warshy 20:27, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- Dear Warshy,
- In regards to your suggestion about colon, appreciate you taking time to teach this to me.
- In regards to suggested overhaul, your suggestion noted that you prefer smaller changes. Also, will see what other editors say before 2/23.
- In regards to number 613 commandments, Maimonedes himself mentions at in his Introduction to the Mishneh Torah (of which Hilchos Melachim is the conclusion), that "The number of Mitzvot which are incumbent on us at all times is 613. Of them, 248 are positive commandments; an allusion to their , the number of limbs in the human body. 365 are negative commandments (prohibitions); an allusion to their , the number of days in a solar year." (Translation from Tougar).
- However, there may be justification to say restoring commandments instead of saying 613. Keep up your feedback Warshy!
- Blessings,
- Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 20:51, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
Request for assistance
Dear all (Especially speaking to frequent editors (in no particular order): Epinoia, Joshua Jonathan, Tgeorgescu, Warshy, Editor2020, 2600:8805:9200:11c0:d00a:2689:49bc:cddf.),
Since I am looking to do a major overhaul of this article in a couple of days there are a couple of points I want to be clear about.
1. I am not very knowledgeable about how to cite stuff. Meaning that when I do start to revamp sections there will probably be a lot of statements without sources yet, although not OR. Can you please ask me for the source in the talk section and I will provide it within approximately 24 hours (except for Shabbos and Jewish Holidays)? Along these lines, is it possible that you can help out be putting in the sources/references into wikipedia? It will be a enormous undertaking which I don't have the time to effectively accomplish yet.
2. Regards to how we are going to revamp the article: There are two ways which I have thought of so far.
2.1 We can blank out whole article and start adding section by section in. Advantages: We get cleaner and more organized info in. Disadvantages, a lot of info is concealed for time being. 2.2 We can start adding in sections and slowly replacing it. Advantage: It has info. Disadvantage: Will be extremely disorganized and messy.
I am personally leaning towards option 1. Please give any feedback or suggestions as to how you believe the best process going forward is. I predict this overhaul will take about 1 month of work.
Blessings,
Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 18:44, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
- – it would be best if you added citations as you went along – unsourced material may be regarded as WP:OR or WP:SYNTH and be removed – for help in citing sources see Misplaced Pages:Citing sources – please DO NOT add unsourced content to articles as it makes more work for everyone – it would be a good idea if you took some time to familiarize yourself with Misplaced Pages guidelines and took some time to learn how to edit before undertaking the major revision of an article, there have already been a few warnings on your User Talk page – take care, Epinoia (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2021 (UTC)